Film of the Month: JFK (1991)

Summary

United States of Kennedy Podcast Summary
Episode: Film of the Month: JFK (1991)
Release Date: July 21, 2025
Hosts: Lyra Smith and George Severis
Guest: Amy Nicholson, Los Angeles Times Film Critic and Co-Host of Unspooled

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Introduction

In this episode of United States of Kennedy, hosts Lyra Smith and George Severis delve into Oliver Stone's controversial film, JFK (1991), as part of their inaugural Kennedy Movie Club series. Joined by Amy Nicholson, the discussion navigates through the film's portrayal of President John F. Kennedy's assassination, its impact on American culture, and the enduring fascination with Kennedy conspiracy theories.

Overview of Oliver Stone's JFK

Lyra Smith ([02:16]) introduces the film, highlighting Oliver Stone's reputation for tackling American politics and power dynamics through his cinematic lens. Stone's filmography, including titles like Wall Street and Natural Born Killers, established him as a filmmaker unafraid to stir public discourse.

George Severis ([04:01]) elaborates on the film's central narrative, focusing on the assassination of JFK and the ensuing conspiracy theories. He notes the film's dual reception: "on one hand, it was roundly criticized and mocked by people that said it was completely conspiratorial... on the other hand, it was incredibly critically acclaimed." The film's technical achievements, including its nomination and win for editing, underscore its complex legacy.

Initial Reactions and Mixed Reception

Amy Nicholson ([05:29]) discusses her early encounters with JFK-related media, revealing how the film initially captivated her with its glamorous portrayal of JFK before delving into deeper conspiracy narratives. "I had watched JFK when I was a child and not really understood anything except, you know, glamour and glitz," she reflects.

George Severis ([06:24]) shares a common sentiment, expressing nostalgia for consuming such revelatory content during his more impressionable years. "I just like, really wish I had watched this when I was younger and more impressionable."

Discussion with Amy Nicholson

Personal Experiences with the Film

Lyra Smith ([06:08]) recounts how the film's complex conspiracy theories initially affirmed her beliefs but later led her to question the very narrative she once accepted. "I watched it twice this weekend... I was on board to believe... then I found this guy on a scene-by-scene fact-check website." ([09:00])

Amy Nicholson ([09:53]) admits to her vulnerability to the film's persuasive storytelling, emphasizing the need for critical research post-viewing. "My heart is very open to things... I have to do a lot of research when I finish watching something to try to put my feet back on the ground."

The Conspiratorial Nature of the Movie

The trio explores how JFK fosters a conspiratorial mindset by suggesting that powerful institutions, including the CIA and the Mafia, orchestrated the assassination. "There's a sort of... replicates kind of the feeling of manically going down a conspiratorial rabbit hole," remarks George Severis ([07:46]).

Amy Nicholson ([08:12]) adds, "I saw a documentary a few years ago that convinced me that Marilyn Monroe was murdered because she was having an affair with RFK," illustrating how compelling narratives can blur the lines between fact and fiction.

Impact of the Film on Viewers' Perceptions

Lyra Smith ([07:16]) observes the widespread belief in JFK assassination conspiracies, noting that "less than 30% of Americans today would disagree with that." The hosts discuss how the film solidified these theories as perceived facts, cultivating a collective skepticism towards official narratives.

Technical Analysis of Filmmaking and Editing

George Severis ([10:33]) praises the film's editing, which mirrors the chaotic unraveling of conspiracy theories. "The editing is so chaotic and it really is so dense... I had to rewind 10 seconds constantly."

Amy Nicholson ([13:02]) likens the experience to a disorienting ride, capturing the audience's confusion and doubt. "You feel like you're on the teacups at Disneyland getting spun and spun and spun around." She highlights moments where the film acknowledges its overwhelming nature, "Oliver Stone, in the chaos of this movie, builds in moments where you realize, I understand I'm taking this a little bit too much."

Character Portrayals and Performances

The discussion turns to the film’s cast, with special attention to Donald Sutherland as Jim Garrison. Lyra Smith ([15:43]) praises Sutherland’s monologue-packed performance, while George Severis ([16:43]) discusses Tommy Lee Jones's nuanced portrayal of Clay Shaw.

Amy Nicholson ([27:04]) reflects on the film's treatment of its characters, noting how Garrison’s noble quest contrasts with the conspiratorial antagonists. "He's imagining himself as a figure in the court of public opinion," she explains.

Cultural and Social Implications

Amy Nicholson ([14:19]) draws parallels between JFK and modern media consumption, emphasizing the persistent crisis of trust in historical narratives. "We're fighting over what history even gets taught..."

George Severis ([19:17]) underscores the Kennedy family's symbolic role in American politics, stating, "the Kennedys as people are almost secondary to the Kennedys as symbols." This symbolic representation serves as a lens through which contemporary political and social issues are examined.

Critical Analysis and Reception of the Film

Amy Nicholson ([29:03]) recounts the vehement backlash from figures like Jack Valenti, who compared JFK to Leni Riefenstahl's propaganda. The immediate criticism centered around perceived factual inaccuracies and the film's conspiratorial stance. Stone defended his approach by emphasizing the broader implications over a narrow biographical focus.

Legacy and Relevance Today

Amy Nicholson ([32:26]) and Lyra Smith ([33:14]) discuss the lasting impact of JFK, particularly its portrayal of the assassination's tragic moment and its communal viewing experience. "It's hard to watch and it is a shock every time," Lyra notes, highlighting the film’s emotional resonance.

George Severis ([34:32]) contrasts the film's depiction of communal tragedy with today's isolated consumption of tragedies via digital media, underscoring a shift in how society processes and shares pivotal moments.

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

As the episode concludes, the hosts and Amy Nicholson reflect on the enduring allure of JFK conspiracy theories and the film's role in shaping public perception. Amy Nicholson ([49:11]) summarizes the dilemma: "You either believe that one assassin can change the world, or you believe that a very powerful president cannot change the world and will wind up getting murdered."

Lyra Smith ([50:32]) humorously suggests an annual tradition of JFK films to explore various theories, while Amy Nicholson encourages continued critical engagement with historical narratives.

George Severis ([51:03]) and Amy Nicholson ([53:33]) share their favorite Kennedy-related pop culture pieces, emphasizing the multifaceted legacy of the Kennedy dynasty in American media.

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Notable Quotes

• George Severis ([04:01]): "It's a really incredible feat of filmmaking. So it has this mixed reputation."
• Lyra Smith ([09:53]): "Even things that on the first watch I thought... they're all wrong. Almost everything is completely fictionalized."
• Amy Nicholson ([13:02]): "You feel like you're on the teacups at Disneyland getting spun and spun and spun around."
• George Severis ([19:17]): "The Kennedys as people are almost secondary to the Kennedys as symbols."
• Amy Nicholson ([29:03]): "You're leaving out everything about this guy... Stone's rebuttal was like, well, if I really made this a movie about Jim Garrison and all of his fl, then the film becomes a biography."

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Final Remarks

This episode of United States of Kennedy offers a comprehensive exploration of Oliver Stone's JFK, dissecting its narrative complexities, technical prowess, and cultural significance. Through engaging dialogue and expert insights, the hosts and guest illuminate the film's role in perpetuating JFK conspiracy theories and its lasting impact on American collective consciousness.

Transcript

[Lyra Smith]

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[George Severis]

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[Amy Nicholson]

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[George Severis]

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Just open the free iHeart app and search iHeart Women's Sports to listen Now.

[George Severis]

I'm Bob Crawford, host of American History Hotline, a different type of podcast. You, the listener, ask the questions.

[Amy Nicholson]

Did George Washington really cut down a cherry tree?

[Lyra Smith]

Were JFK and Marilyn Monroe having an affair?

[George Severis]

And I find the answers. I am so glad you asked me this question.

[Lyra Smith]

This is such a ridiculous story.

[George Severis]

You can listen to American History Hotline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. My Uncle Chris was a real character, a garbage truck driver from South Carolina who is now buried in Panama City alongside the founding families of Panama. He also happens to be responsible for the craziest night of my life. Wild stories about adventure, romance, crime, history and war intertwine as I share the tall tales and hard truths that have helped me understand Uncle Chris. Listen now to Uncle Chris on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Lyra Smith]

What do you think about Oliver Stone's jfk?

[George Severis]

It's just, it's a super well directed, entertaining, big movie. So even if you don't agree with everything or there are holes in the case that he's making, which they're definitely are, it's still a super fun, great movie to watch. There's also Joe Pesci in one of his best roles. David Ferry is like the most insane character you can't believe out of everything that's maybe made up in the movie that guy and all of his quirks are real. And then Ed Asner, John Candy, Jack Lemmon, Walter Matthau. It's like, oh, you should watch the movie just for all of that cast.

[Lyra Smith]

Sissy Spacek, Lori Metcalf.

[George Severis]

I'm George Severis.

[Lyra Smith]

I'm Lyra Smith.

[George Severis]

And this is United States of Kennedy, a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. Every week we go into one aspect of the Kennedy story. And today we have our first installment of the monthly Kennedy Movie Club. So for today, we watched Oliver Stone's jfk. Oliver Stone, of course, you might know from such movies as Wall street and its sequel, Wall Street, Money Never Sleeps, the Doors movie, Heaven and Earth, Natural Born Killers, and then for our purposes, he's also a real chronicler of American power and American politics. So he's done W about George W. Bush, he's done Nixon about Nixon, and of course he's done JFK about. Not quite JFK, but more the controversies around JFK's assassination.

[Lyra Smith]

Released in 1991, it's very well known for its real life impact. After the movie came out and was very popular, the Assassination Records Review Board, or arrb, publicly agreed with the film's message that, quote, Americans could not trust official public conclusions when those conclusions had been made in secret.

[George Severis]

So it's a fascinating movie because on the one hand it's. It was roundly criticized and mocked by people that said it was completely conspiratorial. It really like leans into the idea that we are constantly being lied to, that there's some sort of conspiracy involving the CIA, various other people in power, that essentially some combination of the American government and various other American institutions, along with the mafia, random gay guys, you name it, came together and murdered jfk. So on the one hand it was sort of, in a sense discredited by some mainstream people in mainstream media, but on the other hand, it was incredibly critically acclaimed. It was nominated for Oscars, it won the Oscar for at least editing, I believe. And it was nominated, I think Tommy Lee Jones was nominated for best supporting Actor. It is an incredibly well made movie. It's a really incredible feat of filmmaking. So it has this mixed reputation. And so we thought, who better to discuss it with than Amy Nicholson, the Los Angeles Times film critic and co host of the film podcast Unspooled.

[Lyra Smith]

Hi, Amy, thanks for being here.

[Amy Nicholson]

Hello. Hi. Great to be here.

[Lyra Smith]

We are discussing Oliver Stone's JFK Today. Had you seen it before?

[Amy Nicholson]

I was one of those creepy kids with a bunch of books on the JFK assassination. That I would just flip through and look at all the pictures and be like, whoa. Without really understanding much about who JFK was and what he represented and what he meant in pretty much anything besides, like, glamour and glitz. So I had watched JFK when I was a child and not really understood anything except, you know, back into the left, Back into the left. Back into the left.

[Lyra Smith]

Yeah. After watching the movie and then having like adult sized questions kind of like ruined the conspiracy of my youth, it really is, like, had the opposite effect on me that Oliver Stone intended.

[George Severis]

I sort of agree. I really wish I had watched it as a teen. Like I had. I have such nostalgia for watching similar things and being like, mind blown, like, they're lying to us, man. And I just like, really wish I had watched this when I was younger and more impressionable.

[Amy Nicholson]

I mean, I don't. Am I the only person here who was a Weekly World News teenager who like read tabloids and just thought they were true and grew up being like, yeah, this all makes sense.

[Lyra Smith]

Well, I grew up thinking that literally every single person on earth knew for a fact that this was a conspiracy. And that conspiracy wasn't even the right word to use. Like, this is just a fact. Oswald didn't kill Kennedy or was not the only one who shot at Kennedy. That's what I grew up thinking. And apparently I think it's less than 30% or something of Americans today would disagree with that.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, that's facts.

[Lyra Smith]

Yeah. But the majority of people are like, yeah, the CIA killed jfk. What are you talking about? CIA or the mob? Or, you know, like, it's like a known fact is the way it's treated.

[Amy Nicholson]

So we're living in Oliver Stone's America. We are all post Oliver Stone children.

[George Severis]

I know. I think. Well, I think there's a sort of. It's tough because on the one hand there are things we are not being told. On the other hand, I don't think this specific conspiracy that is being laid out in this movie is the correct one from beginning to end.

[Amy Nicholson]

But isn't it convincing? It's so convincing in the moment. Right. I should say maybe my strength and weakness as a film critic is I can be incredibly susceptible. Like, my heart is very open to things. So I saw a documentary a few years ago that convinced me that Marilyn Monroe was murdered because she was having an affair with rfk. And I was like, okay, that whole tracks. So I have to do a lot of research when I finish watching something to try to put my feet back on the ground.

[George Severis]

Well, I am the same way. I mean, that's also the. The issue with conspiracy culture is like, it stems from a very correct impulse, which is that at any given time we are not being told like a hundred percent the truth. Which is of course right in any kind of like globalized world that is, you know, where the systems of information are controlled by various powerful people. I know I already sound like a conspiracy theorist. But then of course, like, you're right, that is sort of just like an obvious fact. And then of course, people let their imaginations run w wild. And if you're sort of like unmoored from wanting to remain within like a respectable, like, circle of discourse, then suddenly you just like go all the way off and suddenly it's, you know, Tommy Lee Jones in a sort of like, fabulous wig.

[Lyra Smith]

I. So I watched it twice this weekend and the first time I was floored. And I believed it all. Or at least I was like, yes, okay, sure. All of the timelines that they present. I'm like, yeah, you're right, he couldn't do it. And I was just really fully on board to believe even everything, you know, Mr. X said. And then I watched it again and while tracking along, I found this guy, which, by the way, he's just some guy. This is what's so hard about trying to find the truth online is there's this man who has a scene by scene fact check website of the movie, but it's geocities and he doesn't really explain who he is or, you know, it's. But it looks incredibly well researched. So then I watched it again while looking for answers to my questions.

[George Severis]

I actually watched it once and I had to do it in two part. I enjoyed it, for the record, but I had to do it in two parts because it's so. The editing is so chaotic and it really is so dense. I mean, I had to watch it with subtitles.

[Amy Nicholson]

Same.

[George Severis]

I was really, you know, struggling. So the fact that you watched it twice is very impressive. But, but so then the second time.

[Lyra Smith]

What happened the second time? I was following along with a GeoCities fact check.

[George Severis]

Okay.

[Lyra Smith]

Of.

[George Severis]

And what did you learn?

[Lyra Smith]

So I learned that even things that on the first watch I thought, well, there's no way that they would be lying about that. Why would they fictionalize that? Isn't that a date and time? Like, why would that be wrong? They're all wrong. Almost everything is completely fictionalized. And it's very hard for me to say that I don't want it to be true. But it is true.

[Amy Nicholson]

Are you saying that your experience of watching this movie while listening to a person telling you why it's wrong at every single minute, but also knowing that this person is A stranger from geocities.com means you felt like you were living in a mystery wrapped inside a riddle wrapped inside an enigma? A quote that I did not realize came from this movie.

[Lyra Smith]

Yes, I know. I truly. Because also, George. Yes. It took me an entire day to watch it. The first time I watched it in multiple parts. I had to eat. I had to live. It's three and a half hours long.

[George Severis]

I also. It really made me wish I could have seen it in a theater because. And I was. I really did a good job of putting my phone in another room. I was paying full attention. And yet still, even the fact of being able to even look at other things was distracting enough where I had to, like, rewind 10 seconds constantly because I didn't catch Sunline. Yeah.

[Amy Nicholson]

I mean, there's something in the dizzying barrage of dates, numbers, and your own suspicions trying to parry and fend them off while you're taking them all in at the same time, that really, in a way, makes this movie. And we can say a lot of it is fiction. We can say much of it is fiction. The fiction of it, in some crazy way, feels like it gets closer to the truth of what it is. Like just living in an information barrage and not being sure if we should ever trust anything. Really. Even if you don't trust this movie, are we allowed to trust anything? Is the queasy, seasick sense I got enduring this movie. Pleasurably enduring this movie.

[Lyra Smith]

I mean, this is the thing. It's separating the art from the artist, but it's separating, like, the movie from the facts. As a movie, it very much accomplishes its goal.

[George Severis]

And also, I think even exactly as you were saying, Amy, it actually, whether consciously or not, replicates kind of the feeling of manically going down a conspiratorial rabbit hole. Whether or not the rabbit hole you're going down is true or not. It has this manic energy. And I think so much of it has to do with the editing. Like, which is the. In fact, the one or I think one of two Oscars that won is editing. I was wondering if you had any, you know, as an actual expert, like, how do you feel technically, it accomplished that general vibe where for three hours, you just feel like you are on a intellectual rollercoaster.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. You feel like you're on a ride. Right. You feel like you're on. I don't know. The teacups at Disneyland getting spun and spun and spun around. And the movie goes faster and faster. And then about two thirds of the way through, you have Kevin Costner delivering a recap to his own team. All right, here's what's going on. And you suddenly realize he's broken them. The machine has broken down, and everybody's just staring at him like, I can't handle this anymore. And I appreciate that. That Oliver Stone, in the chaos of this movie, builds in moments where you realize, I understand I'm taking this a little bit too much. I've lost the jury when I say this. I've lost my own team when I say this. And yet, don't we all just feel caught up? I mean, Oliver Soto said something really interesting, which is, once you start accepting that maybe you've been lied to about anything in history, then you start wondering if anything in history is true. He says of himself, you know, he grew up in the 40s and 50s and that he would read books on American history about Washington and Columbus and the Civil War. And then as soon as he experienced history and the shakiness of it, he began to doubt everything, which I feel like is an idea that I didn't understand when I was a child in the 90s who believed most things I was taught. But it's an understanding I definitely have now when we're fighting over what history even gets taught, period.

[Lyra Smith]

I mean, my moment for that was when I, as a super fan of Pocahontas, the animated film, watched a History Channel special on the true story of Pocahontas and found out that she was just a child who was kidnapped and abused and not, like, a gorgeous woman, like, living. Living independently from her family's perspective.

[George Severis]

Are you saying Disney's Pocahontas is not factually correct?

[Lyra Smith]

I'm saying that was the moment that I learned never to trust again.

[George Severis]

We should at some point give, you know, attempt to give a synopsis of the movie. But while we're on the topic of, like, American mythologies that we, you know, sour on and we realize our lies and everything, something that is fascinating to me is that he's almost replacing one mythology with another. There is a such a romanticization of JFK in this movie that actually feels weirdly, if not conservative than almost more optimistic than what he's trying to debunk. Does that make sense? I mean, this idea that the conspiracy centers around the idea that JFK is such a pacifist and such a liberatory figure that all the powerful forces in America had to band together to eliminate him. I just don't necessarily think JFK was some, like, left wing, you know, figure that was going to usher in a completely different decade of prosperity or something.

[Lyra Smith]

I mean, that's one of the big things from Mr. X. Donald Sutherland's incredible performance, by the way. Like, truly, truly. I watched it a few times because I just could not believe how. How he just shows up and gives this incredibly wordy dates and locations monologue and it all gets through and he's so.

[George Severis]

It also is especially impactful because the rest of it is so choppy. I'm not saying that in a negative way. Like, it's intentionally just so choppy. And it's like 15 million frames per second. And then the Donald Sutherland part is almost like the first time it slows down and you hear someone talking and delivering a long monologue where the camera isn't, like, shaking in front of their face. And also cutting to, like, historical footage and also cutting to Jackie in the car. And so there's. It's really framed in this way to give it even more gravitas and to be like, this is the real truth, right?

[Amy Nicholson]

And he has that line in that whole area where he says, hey, this feeling that you're having of being barraged by all of these facts, all of these names, this thing that this movie is doing, the way that the people in the country felt, even at this moment, is to keep you from asking the actual question, which is why, yeah, we have so much information thrown at us that just begins to feel like a shell game, like a parlor game. But I also think that what he's getting at here is, you know, Kennedy, I always say, was like the first television president, right? The first person who understood the power of the visual medium and blah, blah, blah, and the checker speech. And he was handsome and Nixon was sweaty, you know, the whole thing. And because we've all grown up in like a post JFK America, I think it's really natural for us to see our presidents as TV characters, you know, more than even, like political figures, that we're getting the natural outgrowth of that. I was literally born under, like a movie actor president, and we don't need to talk about the current people. But, like, because of that, I think I have a way of seeing jfk, not as a person, but as a character. You know, Like, I grew up thinking of JFK as Camelot, and then I heard that JFK was just like a cheating adulterer. Who slept around and was kind of ineffectual. And then there's this JFK who was a totally different JFK to me. Like a JFK who actually could have accomplished great practical things and kept us out of a war. And it was just. It's like three characters. You know, the way that you were saying that you feel as though we have giant arguments fighting at each other. This movie feels like a mech suit of different JFK's battling for control of the legacy.

[George Severis]

Yes, exactly. That's actually something that keeps coming up when we do research into other elements of the Kennedy story, is the Kennedys as people are almost secondary to the Kennedys as symbols. It's just like they're sort of a Rorschach test for how you feel about, you know, how you feel about 20th century American politics, how you feel about liberalism, how you feel about Catholicism, how you feel about, you know, the, the media ecosystem and the publicity ecosystem and power and the American dream. And it's like, I think the average. Despite the fact that JFK is one of the most recognizable historical figures in America, the average person could not really tell you what his legacy is as a president, really. I mean, I guess people could think of like the Bay of Pigs and the assassination, but like, could the average person that has really strong opinions about Reagan or about George W. Bush or about Trump, like, actually produce what was the. What the Kennedy Doctrine was. No, thanks. Thanks, Lyra.

[Lyra Smith]

But I think also because specifically in this, the. The Sutherland monologue, where it. And this is like a common piece of this type of JFK love, and the conspiracy is that they often cite that he was going to sign and that he was. He was going to sign this or he was not going to sign it. And by not signing it, they were going to get troops out of Vietnam immediately and they were not going to have a war. And then because he died, Johnson signed it, gave them their war. And if not for this assassination, like, everything would have been different and we would have. No one would have died in Vietnam and we would have had civil rights immediately. Like, it's just like a total reimagining of things. Because the fact is that he was signing it. He had. He had a draft made up two days before Dallas.

[George Severis]

A foot washed up, a shoe with some bones in it.

[Lyra Smith]

They had no idea who it was.

[George Severis]

Most everything was burned up pretty good from the fire, that not a whole lot was salvageable.

[Amy Nicholson]

These are the coldest of cold cases. But everything is about to change.

[George Severis]

Every case that is a cold case.

[Amy Nicholson]

That has DNA right now in a backlog will be identified in our lifetime. A small lab in Texas is cracking the code on DNA Using new scientific tools. They're finding clues in evidence so tiny you might just miss it.

[George Severis]

He never thought he was going to get caught. And I just looked at my computer screen. I was just like, ah, gotcha.

[Amy Nicholson]

On America's Crime Lab, we'll learn about victims and survivors. And you'll meet the team behind the scenes at othram, the Houston lab that takes on the most hopefully hopeless cases to finally solve the unsolvable. Listen to America's Crime Lab on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[George Severis]

Kelly Harnett spent over a decade in prison for a murder she says she didn't commit.

[Lyra Smith]

I'm 100% innocent.

[George Severis]

While behind bars, she learned the law from scratch because.

[Amy Nicholson]

Oh, God. Harnett jailhouses.

[George Severis]

And as she fought for herself, she also became a lifeline for the women locked up alongside her.

[Amy Nicholson]

You're supposed to have your faith in God, But I had nothing but faith in her.

[George Severis]

So many of these women had lived the same stories.

[Amy Nicholson]

I said, were you a victim of domestic violence? And she was like, yeah, but maybe.

[George Severis]

Kelly could change the ending.

[Lyra Smith]

I said, how many people have gotten other incarcerated individuals out of here? I'm gonna be the first one to do that.

[George Severis]

This is the story of Kelly Harnett, a woman who spent 12 years fighting not just for her own freedom, but her girlfriend's, too.

[Lyra Smith]

I think I have a mission from God to save souls by getting people out of prison.

[George Severis]

The girlfriends, jailhouse lawyer. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, I'm John Lithgow. We choose to go to the moon. I want to tell you about my new fiction podcast that's one small step for man. It's about Buzz Aldrin, one of the true pioneers of space. You're a great pilot, Buzz. As far as I'm concerned, the best I've seen. That's the story you think you know. This is the story you don't predisposition.

[Lyra Smith]

To depression, alcohol abuse, and suicide.

[George Severis]

We'll see Buzz try to overcome demons.

[Amy Nicholson]

What do you say, Buzz? Another beer.

[George Severis]

And triumph over addiction. Here's to you, Buzz Aldrin. Good luck to you and become a true hero. Buzz and I will proceed into the lunar module not because he conquers space, but because he conquers himself. Buzz, we intercepted a Soviet radio transmission starring me, John Lithgow. Can you Put it through on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Amy Nicholson]

Columbia.

[George Severis]

OpenAI is a financial abomination, a thing that should not be an aberration, a symbol of rot at the heart of Silicon Valley. And I'm gonna tell you why on my show, Better Offline, the rudest show in the tech industry, where we're breaking down why OpenAI, along with other AI companies, are dead set on lying to your boss that they can take your job. I'm also going to be talking with the greatest minds in the industry about all the other ways the rich and powerful are ruining the computer. Listen to Better offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you happen to get your podcasts.

[Lyra Smith]

So this movie is. Is about the only murder case that was brought to trial concerning JFK's assassination. And it is the story of the New Orleans da, Jim Garrison, collecting information, finding witnesses. And basically, in real life, we know that he would come up with a story and then try to find people to support that story. But in jfk, it's that he is uncovering the conspiracy to kill Kennedy and frame Oswald.

[George Severis]

Yeah, he's uncovering the conspiracy that some combination of the CIA, American intelligence apparatus, and various other people in power and the Mafia and various people involved in Cuba came together to assassinate jfk because he was going to be basically too progressive of a president.

[Lyra Smith]

Yeah, he was going to stop the war.

[George Severis]

Right.

[Amy Nicholson]

And.

[George Severis]

And he was not hard enough on communism. And so. And as the New Orleans da, Kevin Costner is the only person that is, you know, seeking out the truth. Everyone is against him. He is dealing with all these people in great positions of power that want to discredit him. He, in fact, does a solid job of proving that his theory is correct. And despite that, he loses a trial. And, you know, the movie ends with this, like, plea that it's the next generations that are going to keep seeking the truth.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. Eddie is seen as almost this noble hero, Right. Like, he enters the courtroom with this case against a figure named Clay Bertram, Clay Shaw, who's played by Tommy Lee Jones, who he knows he doesn't have that strong of an actual case specifically about him, you know, but it's more like he just wants to get this entire story on the record because he's really imagining himself as like, a figure in the court of public opinion. He wants to get this all down. He wants to get it in testimony. He wants people to be aware of this. He wants the Zapruder footage to be out there. So that even if his generation won't actually, you know, stand for the principles that he thinks America has, has lost in terms of trusting that our government won't lie to us, maybe our future will live in a much clearer news environment, which clearly did not come to pass, even though his idea of the court of public opinion definitely did.

[Lyra Smith]

Mm. I mean, that is the. Even on the first viewing where I was totally sold, if I'm being honest. When we get to the verdict, and I think we're supposed to be shocked and appalled and heartbroken that he's found not guilty. But even within the movie, you're like, well, what are you proving him being guilty of in court? You know, he really just has like second hand stories. He doesn't have evidence. Like tying Clay Shaw to it.

[Amy Nicholson]

Right. He's basically tugging on that lie. Right. Like, if I can get you to believe you've been lied about one thing, maybe later you'll believe you're a lied about the rest of it.

[Lyra Smith]

The other part of the real story is that Garrison didn't have like a great reputation in the end for being of sane mind. I mean, I don't like to say that, but just that he had. He. There's like quotes of him saying that this was a, a sexual thrill kill and he was just kind of like throwing together anybody that he could find in New Orleans that was part of any kind of underbelly.

[George Severis]

And yeah, I mean, it's also, of course, when the narrative is that everyone is out to get him and everyone is out to discredit him. When that is the narrative, then anything you hear against him almost like fits into that. And then it makes you. If you're on his side, let's say it makes you even more conspiratorial because you're like, oh, look, the media is in on it and the newspapers are in on it and Shaw is in fact controlling the, the public narrative. And, and so, which is in fact like one of the elements of conspiratorial thinking is how self perpetuating it is. Like, once you consider yourself to be part of a community that is truth seeking against all odds, then anything that is being said against you is like further proof that you are correct and that you are getting closer to the truth. I want to sort of talk a little bit, Amy, about the way this was received at the time and where it fits into Oliver Stone's filmography and Oliver Stone's specific, specifically, like, work as a chronicler of American power and corruption. It feels like A movie like this, if it were released now, it would be seen as so, you know, quote, unquote, irresponsible. Like with the current conspiracy culture that exists at the time, there were definitely detractors, but it was, you know, a critical hit. It was nominated for Oscars. What would you say the immediate response was?

[Amy Nicholson]

Well, Jack Valenti, who ran the mpaa, the Motion Picture association of America, he likened it Leni Riefenstahl's Triumph of the Will. So there was also some pretty strong detractors who were going after the film very, very harshly. You know, there were a lot of people who were alive, of course, to witness this whole trial go down. And they came into the movie with very strong opinions about Garrison, the way that I'm sure years from now we're gonna have really strong opinions if somebody ever does a movie about, you know, James Comey. And so a lot of the immediate reaction was like, you're leaving out everything about this guy, you know? And Stone's rebuttal to that was like, well, if I really made this a movie about Jim Garrison and all of his fl, then the film becomes a biography. It becomes smaller. And I think that that takes the focus off of the larger issue. But then you also have to say you're casting Kevin Costner at one of the peaks of his career, you know, a pre waterworld Kevin Costner, when everybody was in love with him, including my mother. And you're gonna think, yeah, Garrison, totally reasonable guy. Perhaps the greatest living American, you know. And so it's interesting. Like, I find movies like this that challenge the audience honestly by asking us to be aware that every movie we ever go see is at some point, a film with an agenda is at some point not going to tell the truth. That fiction actually can never recreate the truth. Exactly. It's impossible. There's a really fantastic documentary by Noam Chomsky with Michel Gondry called Is the man who is Tall Happy? That's about almost this, like, paradox of absolute zero. You can never make a fictional recreation of anything that is the truth. And yet we live in a world where it always gets shaky. And people are obligated to say, like, depiction is not endorsement. And I think this is a film that, to me, regardless of what you feel about JFK in the present, regardless of how much people are even thinking about jfk, speaks to our common crisis that we're all in right now about not knowing what to believe. And it's almost like a vaccine or an inoculation, right? Like, can you Watch this movie trusting that it's okay, that it has an agenda, you know, because I think honestly, every film should have an agenda, or why even bother making it? You know, I want Minecraft to have an agenda. Even if that agenda is just like, make kids really excited and throw popcorn around.

[George Severis]

Yeah, no, completely. And I think that is. I mean, I think it's also about almost respecting your audience in that way. Like, I think you can trust that they can draw the different conclusions than you do, but still appreciate the way you told a story and the way you put forth an argument.

[Amy Nicholson]

Exactly. Like Oliver Stone thought that if he could get three things across, he would be content. And those three things are not. Please buy everything in this conspiracy. But it's A, I want to prove that Oswald was actually anti communist or at least hung around with anti communist people. B, I want you guys to know that there were doctors getting bossed around by military officers in the autopsy. That that is a fact, and I just need that on the record. And C, really putting the Zapruder footage on a big screen because isn't that impactful? Like, I found that really astonishing. You know, when JFK gets shot at the beginning, it's represented by a flock of birds. 2 hours and 45 minutes in the movie, you see his actual death. And after talking about it for minutes and minutes and minutes and minutes at such a breakneck speed, for some reason, watching it then hit me harder than I think it's ever hit me.

[Lyra Smith]

Yeah, I had very similar experience where it felt like the most gruesome thing I've seen, and I've seen it before, but it really is hard to watch and it is a shock every time. And then especially the way they do it with, like, repeating it over and over again. And I always think about either Jackie oh said this, or somebody said it after speaking to Jackie oh, or describing what she does in the Zapruder film is that she jumps to the back and reaches for parts of the JFK's head. She reaches to get them and collect them. It's such a human response that's not based in logic. And so, like, watching that over and over again really struck me.

[Amy Nicholson]

I love that description of it because I think that's something that's really easy to miss when we look back at history, that things don't always add up because we're flailing and figuring out the best time. I could just imagine being in that moment and thinking, like, let me grab for my husband's brains. Maybe I can fix this.

[George Severis]

Yeah, it's interesting that, you know, compared to other biopic, like depictions of the Kennedys that go to great lengths to have these long speeches or, you know, show Jackie with the blood on her dress and all this stuff, like, the impact of just that tiny moment being played over and over again is actually. Can be so much more meaningful than, you know, an entire two hour movie that's like, about her staring into the distance and mourning her husband.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. And I found it so touching. As soon as the assassination happens, you see Americans in this movie running to a bar where they know that there's a TV to sit together. Like, the idea of. I feel like right now I spend a lot of time witnessing what feels like epic tragedies alone on my couch, on my cell phone. And the idea that you could sit with your community, even if some of your community is clapping because they're happy JFK is dead.

[George Severis]

Yeah.

[Amy Nicholson]

Which. Wow. Yeah. You know, it really, it really affected me.

[George Severis]

It was interesting how in that scene there was actually relative civility in the bar. Like, in my mind, when I imagine how people of different political views react to, I don't know, a Trump executive order or something. I don't imagine people like, yelling at the tv, but then ultimately remaining civil and consuming it communally. There was something about. Which is, of course, the difference between consuming information remotely and consuming it physically together in the same space. Like, you have no choice but to exist communally with your fellow person. And it would. It takes much more like courage or something to actually start, like, yelling or fighting in real life. I wanted to go back to just in terms of your relationship with Oliver Stone, like, how. What do you think of him as a filmmaker and how do you think this fits into his filmography?

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, I think he's vital, passionate and frustrating. I have a soft spot in my heart for filmmakers who stir shit up. Can I say stir shit up on this?

[George Severis]

Yes.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. Okay. Because how else are you going to describe Oliver Stone? That's what he does. This is a guy who went to war when he was young, grew up or grew cynical super fast, and then wanted to translate his experience to the screen in a ton of powerful movies. I think born on the 4th of July, a movie he made right before this with Tom Cruise, is one of the better things anybody's ever made about war. And it's also one of the better Tom Cruise performances. So I. I don't know what I think about Oliver Stone as a human being because I try to really keep that out of. Of the movie themselves. But I think that people like him who use the power of cinema to put a hot laser beam on things they want us to be talking about. I love them even when they make people mad, you know, even when they make me mad. And so this, to me, feels like one of the ultimate Oliver Stone movies. Although I have to say, on a tiny side note, when he made the Doors, my boyfriend, who was a gigantic Doors fan, went to go see it as a kid and was so furious, he went outside and, like, lit a cassette tape on fire and started screaming. So that's just the effect Oliver Stone has on people.

[Lyra Smith]

Well, my personal experience with this one is that I am from Tennessee and some of the accents are phenomenal. And I feel like a lot of the cast, like, you know, a lot of the cast already has accents or Southern accents, and it's like Sissy Spacek and Tommy Lee Jones, and they're making these, like, kind of, like, subtle adjustments to fit the region, and I really love that. And I actually find that Costner's accent is, like, very reserved. And I did really like it, but I hate to say it, but, like, John Candy's accent is really rough. He's from Canada. You can't. You can't, you know, blame him. Also, I read that he was sweating profusely the entire time they were filming because he was so nervous to be in a dramatic film. And that that was just real sweat.

[George Severis]

Oh, that's so funny. I mean, everything about it seems so intentional, to be honest. Even the accent being insane just adds to the character.

[Lyra Smith]

Well, that's the thing also, is that, like, when Joe Pesci first shows up and you're like, is that a bad wig on the productions?

[George Severis]

I mean, the eyebrows, yeah.

[Lyra Smith]

But then towards the end, you realize, like, no, it's a bad wig because he wore a bad wig. And now we're gonna show you how bad it, like, he starts tearing, like, pulling it and moving it around while he's, like, having his episode and.

[George Severis]

A foot washed up. A shoe with some bones in it.

[Lyra Smith]

They had no idea who it was.

[George Severis]

Most everything was burned up pretty good from the fire, that not a whole lot was salvageable.

[Amy Nicholson]

These are the coldest of cold cases, but everything is about to change.

[George Severis]

Every case that is a cold case.

[Amy Nicholson]

That has DNA right now in a backlog will be identified in our lifetime. A small lab in Texas is cracking the code on DNA using new scientific tools. They're finding clues in evidence so tiny you might just miss it.

[George Severis]

He never thought he was going to.

[Lyra Smith]

Get caught, and I just Looked at.

[George Severis]

My computer screen, I was just like, ah, gotcha.

[Amy Nicholson]

On America's Crime Lab, we'll learn about victims and survivors, and you'll meet the team behind the scenes at othram, the Houston lab that takes on the most hopeless cases to finally solve the unsolvable. Listen to America's Crime Lab on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[George Severis]

Kelly Harnett spent over a decade in prison for a murder she says she didn't commit.

[Lyra Smith]

I'm 100% innocent.

[George Severis]

While behind bars, she learned the law from scratch.

[Amy Nicholson]

He goes, oh, God. Harnett, jailhouse lawyer.

[George Severis]

And as she fought for herself, she also became a lifeline for the women locked up alongside her.

[Amy Nicholson]

You're supposed to have your faith in God. But I had nothing but faith in her.

[George Severis]

So many of these women had lived the same stories.

[Amy Nicholson]

I said, were you a victim of domestic violence? And she was like, yeah, but maybe.

[George Severis]

Kelly could change the ending.

[Lyra Smith]

I said, how many people have gotten other incarcerated individuals out of here? I'm going to be the first one to do that.

[George Severis]

This is the story of Kelly Harnett, a woman who spent 12 years fighting not just for her own freedom, but her girlfriend's too.

[Lyra Smith]

I think I have a mission from God to save souls by getting people out of prison.

[George Severis]

The girlfriends, jailhouse lawyer. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, I'm John Lithgow. We choose to go to the moon. I want to tell you about my new fiction podcast.

[Lyra Smith]

That's one small step for man.

[George Severis]

It's about Buzz Aldrin, one of the true pioneers of space. You're a great pilot, Buzz. As far as I'm concerned, the best I've seen. That's the story you think you know. This is the story you don't.

[Lyra Smith]

Predisposition to depression, alcohol abuse, and suicide.

[George Severis]

We'll see Buzz try to overcome demons.

[Amy Nicholson]

What do you say, Buzz? Another beer.

[George Severis]

And triumph over addiction. Here's to you, Buzz Aldrin. Good luck to you and become a true hero. Buzz and I will proceed into the lunar module not because he conquers space, but because he conquers himself. Buzz, we intercepted a Soviet radio transmission starring me, John Lithgow. Can you put it through on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts? Columbia OpenAI is a financial abomination, a thing that should not be an aberration.

[Amy Nicholson]

A symbol of rot at the heart of Silicon Valley.

[George Severis]

And I'm gonna Tell you why on my show Better Offline, the rudest show in the tech industry, where we're breaking down why OpenAI, along with other AI companies, are dead set on lying to your boss that they can take your job. I'm also going to be talking with the greatest minds in the industry about all the other ways the rich and powerful are ruining the computer. Listen to Better offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you happen.

[Lyra Smith]

To get your podcast. Here's the thing, though. The same way that there's the idealized JFK memory being presented, I feel like there's, like, a lot of Southern isms that are thrown in. Some of them I've never heard of before in my life. And I don't know if Oliver Stone got them from anyone that he knows or what, but it's like they're really trying to remind you that these are simple, Southern, good Americans and they don't take no crap from nobody. I wrote down some of them that I really liked, but I think my favorite one that I never heard before is her reputation's lower than crocodile piss, which I will be, like, using for the rest of my life. But the one that, like, really. The one that really took me out of it, though, is that when they're talking about the magic bullet and he says theoretical physicists can also prove that an elephant can hang off a cliff with its tail tattoo a daisy.

[George Severis]

I actually think the sort of florid nature of the Southern people as imagined by. As imagined by Oliver Stone kind of adds to the weirdly fictionalized, almost like, dreamscape vibe of the movie. Like when you have. When you're in a courtroom and someone is speaking like that, and they're saying, theoretical physicists can prove that an elephant can hang off a cliff with its tail tied to a daisy, you're sort of like, okay, we're in this kind of, like, suspended world, and I don't have to fully believe this conspiracy theory to engage with it. Like, I actually think it sort of helps put you in a. You know, in a reality that's halfway between truth and fiction.

[Amy Nicholson]

Right. We are all Joe Pesci's wig feeling like we're sliding off of his head.

[George Severis]

Exactly.

[Amy Nicholson]

But as a girl who grew up in Texas, if we want to talk about presidents creating characters or politicians creating characters, do not get me started on George W. Bush and his Texas accent. Or most people who move to Texas and suddenly reinvent themselves as a real American. Oh, my goodness.

[George Severis]

Yeah.

[Lyra Smith]

Yeah. And then the other thing that I kept noticing. I didn't know if anybody else had seen it. Pesci keeps playing with people's nipples and it's like a character choice.

[George Severis]

Yeah. Actually, you know, Pesci playing with everyone's nipples is a great segue into the. The depiction of, like, the homosexual underground.

[Lyra Smith]

That is Homosexual underbelly.

[George Severis]

Underbelly, yes.

[Lyra Smith]

Kevin Bacon.

[George Severis]

Yeah. That is depicted in this film, which I know I'm supposed to be offended by, but I have to say, I found it to be so fun. And like, the scenes of them, you know, having the sort of, like, weird sex parties where one of them is covered head to toe in gold paint and the other one is dressed like. What was I trying to think as.

[Amy Nicholson]

I saw, like, Marie Antoinette, maybe?

[George Severis]

Antoinette thing.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, well, and they've clearly got a lot of time on their hands to put on that gold paint and then wash off that gold paint. They clearly could be planning a. Of couple conspiracy.

[Lyra Smith]

I loved Tommy Lee Jones in this movie and I wanted to hang out with him, the character, but he's definitely in that cinematic gay villain. I don't know if it starts with Peter Lor, but he's definitely doing like a kind of Maltese Falcon, Peter Lorre character.

[George Severis]

It's very, you know, Javier Bardem in that Bond movie where he's very clearly, like, gay coded. Although I will say one thing, and maybe this is just because I love Tommy Lee Jones, but I felt like you could argue that it's written in a kind of blatantly homophobic way. But I actually think the performance is a very nuanced portrayal of a closeted gay man. I think he's not going over the top. He's not going super flamboyant in this very kind of stereotypical way. I really think there's, dare I say, a quiet dignity to the performance. No.

[Lyra Smith]

Yes. Because I think he also, he rides this line of, is it that he's hiding this or is it that he's actually being quite condescending to the people around him who don't get it.

[George Severis]

Yes. And I think that is a. There's a. There's a certain mix of, like, self loathing and also narcissism that is, and I speak from experience, often unique to gay men. And I honestly think that like, like that is portrayed in such a clear way and it's actually very difficult to get right.

[Lyra Smith]

Gosh, it is so wild because, like, when this came out, there was backlash.

[George Severis]

Yes, no, absolutely. Which of course I, you know, of course you get when there's like a You know, a group of kind of, like, slightly gross, sexually perverse gay men that are basically in charge of murdering the President because he's. Because he wants to end war. You know, I will say that a great narrative.

[Lyra Smith]

Kevin Bacon, Tommy Lee Jones. Not gross.

[George Severis]

No, not at all.

[Lyra Smith]

They're very, very handsome in this movie.

[Amy Nicholson]

Did you wish that the wife, Sissy Spacek, you know, who is kind of establishing that Jim Garrison's the opposite of all of that. He's a married man with five children that he barely has enough time to hang out with. She has that tiny little dig at him, like, are you going after this man because you are bigoted, because you're homophobic? And I was kind of. I kind of wanted the film to dig into that just a little bit more. Like, is that at all part of it? Because it lets him shrug it off really easily. But I think people at the time thought that that was the case, that he was basically bringing these charges against the Tommy Lee Jones character to make him say on the record, in front of America that he was out of the closet.

[George Severis]

Yeah, I actually thought that that was part of a larger character choice to not make him overtly chauvinistic and super masculine. You. A character like that, especially in the movie, that is so, like, that really wears its arguments on its sleeve. You would expect a character like that to be so much more abrasive. And there's something about Costner's performance that's actually, like, relatively understated considering the movie he's in.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, I would agree with that. He's almost more of just an interviewer passing the mic around to hear other crazy people talk. Because there are performances in this that are massive to your point. I mean, we didn't even get in John Candy saying the word daddio, like, that's right. And you've got Joe Pesci with mice everywhere on his apartment because he's trying to work on a cure for cancer. I mean, you get the sense that Costner's Jim Garrison is a guy who's just sort of quiet with his own Roman Empire that's keeping him up at night. And these are all the Caligulas making his life interesting.

[Lyra Smith]

Yeah. To me, it's almost the comparison of what the response was then to how we see it now. I feel like, is a sign of, like, progress in acknowledging and accepting and enjoying that there are complex gay characters and that it's not just an automatic. That you have to be a good guy if you're a gay character, or else it's an attack.

[George Severis]

Yeah. No, I agree. I was. Because I knew that it had this sort of reputation and this criticism. I expected it to be much more, I don't know, bothersome or something. Mm, let's see. Lyra, should we go into sort of final questions? Well, first of all, Amy, our first question for. Our last question for you is, who killed jfk?

[Amy Nicholson]

Well, I don't know what the scarier answer would be. I mean, coming out of this movie, you get two options. A, you either believe that one assassin can change the world, or B, you believe that a very powerful president cannot change the world and will wind up getting murdered. Oh, gosh. I don't want to be thrown into a gulag by anybody, but I don't think Oswald acted alone.

[Lyra Smith]

Oh, me?

[George Severis]

Yeah. I think we can all agree there.

[Amy Nicholson]

Oh, okay. Good. Awesome. I get it's. When you talk about conspiracy and then you admit you believe it, a little part of the conspiracy, don't you feel like you're insane?

[Lyra Smith]

Yes. Well, and I'm also. I. I cannot tell you how many times I've been. There's kind of like a. An ongoing joke about, like, when you meet, like, new mom friends and you have to kind of subtly at first, see if they're anti vaxx or not. You're just, like, kind of checking out the vibes in the beginning. But that's how I have felt talking about JFK with people is that I'm like, well, but I can see this. And then by the end, you're all just like, yes, of course. And there was a second shooter, at least that, you know, and it's like every single person, I think, is on the same page with that, once you get down to it.

[George Severis]

Yeah. You know, I would honestly love to see more big directors tackle what happened with the JFK's assassination.

[Lyra Smith]

We need one every year.

[George Severis]

Yeah, like one every year. Just 17 in a row. And then we'll decide which one is the best one in terms of the actual theory and which one is the best one in terms of the filmmaking. Because I actually think, you know, do I think this movie is very explicitly spreading unsubstantiated conspiracy theories? Yes. But do I think it's sort of like the right instinct to question the official narrative of history also? Yes. So, you know, let's fund, I don't know, Darren Aronofsky's jfk. Let's actually not do that. But, you know, it's just an idea.

[Lyra Smith]

Who would do the best JFK assassination movie?

[George Severis]

Oh, that's a Great question.

[Amy Nicholson]

Oh, the first thing in my head was, I want the Coen brothers to get back together so they could do it.

[George Severis]

I do think that would. Yes, that would be the right reference. That's their homework.

[Lyra Smith]

But who would do the most truthful or most accurate. Does anyone come to mind that, like, does, like, extremely accurate but powerful period pieces or.

[George Severis]

I mean, I don't know about accurate, but, you know, Scorsese is in a sort of, you know, has done morally nuanced historical films.

[Amy Nicholson]

You know, I feel like this guy's version of it will get maybe a little closer to the Oliver Stone one. But the director that I thought really captured this idea of fiction nailing the truth better than the truth does is Davion Chazelle with the movie Babylon, which got the chaos of silent film exactly right. Even if they got the year right. I think his film feels like it's very 1919, but he's trying to set it in, like, 1927. Anyway, the idea of making a movie where you're like, here's the truth, but it also has orgies and elephants and fire breathers and all sorts of mania.

[George Severis]

Yeah.

[Amy Nicholson]

And yet that is closer to the silent film and how it felt to that era of, like, wild people coming to la, inventing a new form of art and just being the outcast with a new dream than almost anything I've ever seen that tried to get it right and does it too soberly.

[George Severis]

Yeah, no, I. I do think focusing on the chaos of it is the right way to go, rather than being like, who is, you know, who is a meticulous enough filmmaker to get the truth exactly right? Like, you know, give it to Baz Luhrmann.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. Boz Luhrmann's jfk.

[George Severis]

Okay, well, speaking of Baz Luhrman's jfk, as we wrap up, Amy, I was wondering, what are your favorite Kennedy related pieces of pop culture and films and everything else? Lyra and I have a real soft spot for Gray Gardens, and I also recently watched House of Yes for the first time.

[Amy Nicholson]

I mean, Grey Gardens is fantastic. I don't know if you can pick a better choice than that. But I really came to admire the Natalie Portman take on Jackie because I never quite vibed with Natalie Portman, often as an actress. But when you cast her in a role where she's playing somebody incredibly aware of what her image is and trying to keep it together for everyone else's sake and doing a bad job, that's the lane that I love Natalie Portman in. And I felt like that movie. Even if I don't necessarily think it's a proper synergy of either one of those women individually, her or Jackie O. I do think it, I don't know, it captures a Venn diagram of them really well.

[Lyra Smith]

Well, thank you so much for joining us today. This was so fun.

[Amy Nicholson]

Oh, my pleasure. Always down to get conspiratorial with y'.

[George Severis]

All. Great. Thank you so much, Amy.

[Lyra Smith]

So that's it for this week's episode.

[George Severis]

Next week, we're diving into the life of Rosemary Kennedy with historian Kate Clifford Larson, author of the biography the Hidden Kennedy Daughter.

[Lyra Smith]

So subscribe and follow United States of Kennedy for all things Kennedy every week.

[George Severis]

Every case that is a cold case.

[Amy Nicholson]

That has DNA right now in a backlog will be identified in our lifetime on the new podcast America's Crime Lab. Every case has a story to tell and the DNA holds the truth.

[George Severis]

He never thought he was going to.

[Lyra Smith]

Get caught and I just looked at.

[George Severis]

My computer screen, I was just like, ah, gotcha. This technology is already solving so many cases.

[Amy Nicholson]

Listen to America's Crime Lab on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Join iHeartRadio and Sarah Spain in celebrating.

[George Severis]

The one year anniversary of iHeart Women's Sports with powerful interviews and insider analysis.

[Lyra Smith]

Our shows have connected fans with the.

[George Severis]

Heart of women's Sports.

[Lyra Smith]

In just one year, the network has launched 15 shows and built a community.

[George Severis]

United by passion podcasts that amplify the voices of women in sports. Thank you for supporting iHeart women's sports.

[Lyra Smith]

And our founding sponsors, E L F.

[George Severis]

Beauty, Capital One and Novartis.

[Amy Nicholson]

Just open the free iHeart app and search iHeart Women's Sports to listen now.

[George Severis]

I'm Bob Crawford, host of American History Hotline, a different type of podcast. You, the listener, ask the questions.

[Amy Nicholson]

Did George Washington really cut down a cherry tree?

[Lyra Smith]

Were JFK and Marilyn Monroe having an affair?

[George Severis]

And I find the answers. I'm so glad you asked me this question.

[Lyra Smith]

This is such a ridiculous story.

[George Severis]

You can listen to American History Hotline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Lyra Smith]

I knew I wanted to obey and submit, but I didn't fully grasp for the rest of my life what that.

[Amy Nicholson]

Meant for my heart. Podcasts and Rococo Punch this is the turning, turning river road. In the woods of Minnesota, a cult leader married himself to 10 girls and forced them into a secret life of abuse. But in 2014, the youngest escaped. Listen to the turning river road on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Lyra Smith]

This is an iHeart podcast.