Film of the Month: Thirteen Days (2001) and the Cuban Missile Crisis

Summary

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Podcast Summary: United States of Kennedy

Episode: Film of the Month – "Thirteen Days" (2001) and the Cuban Missile Crisis

Date: January 19, 2026
Hosts: George Civeris & Julia Claire

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Episode Overview

This episode of United States of Kennedy spotlights their monthly movie club pick: the 2001 political thriller “Thirteen Days,” which dramatizes the Cuban Missile Crisis. George and Julia dive into the film’s narrative choices, its depiction of the Kennedy family, and its attempts (and frequent failures) to create drama from diplomatic history. With their signature humor and sharp cultural critique, they dissect the movie’s flaws—including its historical liberties, peculiar performances, and “unbearable dullness”—while offering background on the actual Cuban Missile Crisis and exploring how Hollywood mythologizes the Kennedy era.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Film Introduction and Cast Observations

• The movie stars Kevin Costner as Kenny O’Donnell (a lesser-known Kennedy aide), Bruce Greenwood as JFK, and Stephen Culp as RFK.
• The hosts joke that the cast consists of “that guy” actors and note that it’s hard to tell many of the white male characters apart.
• “This is one of those movies that they would do some sort of study and show it to people of a different culture and be like, can you tell these white men apart?” – George (04:07)

2. The Film’s Structure & Historical Inaccuracies

• The plot focuses on the 13 days of the Cuban Missile Crisis, the period between the discovery of Soviet missiles in Cuba and the diplomatic resolution.
• The movie is technically based on “The Kennedy Tapes: Inside the White House During the Cuban Missile Crisis”, not Robert F. Kennedy’s “Thirteen Days.”
• Much of the dialogue comes from White House tapes, possibly contributing to the film’s dry delivery.
• Hosts critique that the film both lionizes JFK and RFK and alters real personalities (e.g., making Bobby a dove, when historically he was hawkish).
• “It is an elegiac portrayal of the two of them…if I’ve ever seen one. Oh, my God.” – Julia (08:26)

3. The Challenge of Dramatizing Diplomacy

• "Thirteen Days" is, bluntly, a movie about meetings—often without much cinematic flair.
• The hosts argue a better film could have centered on the personal stakes and histories of the various advisors.
• “It’s a movie about meetings. It’s also a movie about meetings all within the same administration.” – George (10:58)
• The hosts note the absence of compelling subplots or family life—Costner’s “stock wife character” is solely present as emotional filler, lacking any development.

4. Missed Opportunities: Direction, Tone, and Drama

• Julia and George dreamcast Ben Affleck and Aaron Sorkin as the creative team that might have brought the story to life (e.g., as in “Argo” or “The West Wing”).
• The film fails to translate historical tension into cinematic suspense, instead relying on melodramatic musical cues and random atomic bomb montages.
• “If anything, to be honest, I thought we would watch this movie, and then it would be a great opportunity to discuss the Cuban Missile crisis in more detail. And… I didn’t get what I needed here.” – George (35:18)
• Attempts to humanize the crisis—like vignettes of Costner’s family—feel flat and formulaic.

5. Accents, Performances, and Bizarre Choices

• Kevin Costner’s Boston accent is roundly mocked as “from outer space,” while Bruce Greenwood’s fluctuates between Boston and Southern.
• Stephen Culp’s RFK is praised for both physical and vocal resemblance to the real figure.
• “I have never seen anything like this before. This is a Boston accent, Kevin Costner’s, that is so from outer space…” – Julia (20:13)
• The film’s use of black-and-white scenes is puzzling, lacking clear purpose or symbolism.

6. The Kennedy Mythology—And Film’s Place in It

• The movie’s biggest problem: mythologizing the Kennedys to cartoonish levels, never showing flaws or self-doubt.
• “This movie almost shows its hand by portraying JFK as good, mostly via things other people say about him.” – George (23:36)
• The hosts contrast "Thirteen Days" with Oliver Stone’s "JFK," which, while unhinged, at least takes big dramatic swings.
• Discussion of the “fetishization of diplomacy” – the idea that averting war through talk is cinematic drama in itself. Both hosts agree with the sentiment but find the execution lacking.

7. Memorable Moments and Notable Criticisms

• The hosts cite negative box office returns and only modest critical acclaim, despite Roger Ebert’s surprisingly favorable review (three out of four stars).
• They find the most interesting historical thread—the “Munich” appeasement reference and Adlai Stevenson’s role—mishandled in the film.
• Kevin Costner’s outsized influence: he revived the project, starred in it, and even arranged screenings for Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, and Fidel Castro (“They had a lively discussion afterwards about it.” – Julia, 36:05).

Notable Quotes

• “You know, it’s bad when you’re sort of like praying for nuclear war to happen in the movie just so that there’s some drama.” – George (41:26)
• “We were on the brink of nuclear war and they just telegraphed it in the most plodding way possible.” – Julia (28:57)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:55] – Show intro and film announcement
• [04:12] – Who is Kevin Costner’s character? (Historical accuracy discussion)
• [05:18] – Over-the-top music/score choices
• [06:36] – What was the Cuban Missile Crisis? (Hosts explain)
• [11:59] – Film’s misrepresentation of Bobby Kennedy and creative dreamcasting
• [13:48] – How the film fails to create dramatic stakes
• [17:51] – Discussion of what the film could’ve learned from “The West Wing”
• [19:07] – Cast, accents, and the “Boston accent disaster”
• [23:17] – The movie’s cult-of-personality strategy for JFK
• [26:21] – Munich, appeasement, and Kennedy family history
• [28:47] – How the film botched the inherent drama of the crisis
• [33:23] – Visual choices: pointless black-and-white scenes
• [36:04] – Costner’s post-release screenings (including for Fidel Castro)
• [37:39] – Adlai Stevenson as a missed opportunity for a main character
• [39:16] – The Kennedy mythos and mythologizing the 1960s
• [41:01] – Final tagline and biting closing jokes

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Tone and Style

The hosts maintain a biting, witty, and lightly irreverent tone throughout. They blend sharp cultural critique with personal anecdotes and dry humor, frequently poking fun at both the movie’s failings and the broader phenomenon of over-mythologizing the Kennedys.

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Takeaways

• Thirteen Days is, in the hosts’ view, a case study in how to drain the drama from one of America’s tensest moments.
• The movie fails to create compelling characters, relies on wishful mythologizing, and ultimately isn’t recommended—even (especially?) for Kennedy buffs.
• If you want real tension, look to history itself or more energetic dramatizations, not this film.

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Final Recommendation

Don’t bother watching the movie just for this podcast:
“If you’ve gotten this far and we’ve already gotten your listens, I’m gonna tell you, don’t go.” – George (42:06)

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Selected Notable Quotes

• “This is one of those movies that… can you tell these white men apart?” – George (04:07)
• “He [JFK] is just made to do all these dramatic pauses… so cartoonishly, this was the world’s most perfect man that it strains all credulity.” – Julia (08:59)
• “The portrayal of JFK is so over the top, but so cartoonishly, this was the world’s most perfect man that it strains all credulity.” – Julia (08:59)
• “It’s a movie about meetings.” – Julia (10:57)
• “I have never seen anything like this before. This is a Boston accent, Kevin Costner’s, that is so from outer space…” – Julia (20:13)
• “You know, it’s bad when you’re sort of like praying for nuclear war to happen in the movie just so that there’s some drama.” – George (41:26)

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Transcript

[Julia Claire]

This is an iHeart podcast.

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[Julia Claire]

FOREIGN.

[George Severis]

I'm George Severis.

[Julia Claire]

And I'm Julia Claire.

[George Severis]

And this is United States of Kennedy, a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. Every week we go into one aspect of the Kennedy story, and today is our monthly movie club episode. And we are talking about the 2001 political thriller. And I do use both of those words liberally. Thirteen days. Thirteen Days, about the Cuban Missile Crisis, starring Kevin Costner, Brie Vanderkamp's husband from Desperate Housewives.

[Julia Claire]

That's what I was gonna say.

[George Severis]

He looks great in this film.

[Julia Claire]

He looks so good. And Bruce Greenwood as John F. Kennedy. And if you don't know who Bruce Greenwood is, if you watched Mad Men, he is the handsome older gentleman who wants to run away with Joan towards the end of the series.

[George Severis]

That is okay. This movie is full of, you know, that guy.

[Julia Claire]

That guy, yeah.

[George Severis]

It's full of character who I've seen in other places. I mean, obviously Dylan Baker, iconic actor and star of the movie Happiness, one of the craziest movies I've ever seen in my life, I have to say. This is one of those movies that they would do some sort of study and show it to people of a different culture and be like, can you tell these white men apart? Like.

[Julia Claire]

And not a single person could.

[George Severis]

I was barely able to keep them.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah, it's hard.

[George Severis]

I kept having to remind myself, like, this one's Kennedy, this one's Bobby. This one. And also the protagonist of this movie, Kevin Costner, is, from what I understand, a relatively inconsequential historical figure that is not really in a lot of historical accounts or doesn't have a starring role in a lot of historical accounts of the Cuban Missile Crisis.

[Julia Claire]

He's one of JFK's secretaries who does his scheduling.

[George Severis]

Right, Exactly.

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[George Severis]

He's list. He's introduced himself as a special assistant to the president or something.

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Yeah.

[Julia Claire]

This movie is insane. And it's also boring, which is crazy. It's making a lot of big swings and also Is somehow so dull. And it's two and a half hours.

[George Severis]

That's interesting. Name one big swing.

[Julia Claire]

Okay, well, the big swings to me are the accents, and we'll get to that. I mean, there's a whole universe inside of these accents. And also there are these really dramatic score needle drops. What we could do is it a blockade of Cuba? And then there's this extremely melodramatic music that comes in like, dun dun.

[George Severis]

Yeah, it is true. And the needle drops come not even at the most dramatic moments because the blockade of Cuba is not, in fact, the most dramatic choice they could have made. And we're going to get into what the Cuban Missile Crisis actually was, and we will explain the significance of these things. But the decision to do a blockade comes after the much more dramatic suggestion of an airstrike. An airstrike is rejected. So the needle drop should not be dramatic. It should be like, oh, good, we're so far resisting any sort of violent confrontation.

[Julia Claire]

But it's. It's like literally like soap opera music.

[George Severis]

Yeah, it's crazy.

[Julia Claire]

So crazy.

[George Severis]

Morning, gentlemen. Let's have it in the southeast as far north as Washington D.C. are in range of these weapons. And in the event of a launch.

[Public Ad Representative]

Would have only five minutes of warning.

[George Severis]

In those five minutes, it could kill 80 million Americans.

[Julia Claire]

We have to get those missiles out.

[Tara Davis Woodhull]

It's.

[George Severis]

Yeah, it's a interesting mix of matter of fact diplomatic conversations, but scored as though we are watching war and murder taking place at all times. It's almost like they shot the movie, realized it was boring, and then they were like, all right, how can we judge it up with some music?

[Julia Claire]

But they didn't try hard enough. They didn't try hard enough to zh it up.

[George Severis]

So before we get into the weeds of the movie, I do think we should at least attempt to say what the actual Cuban Missile Crisis was, because this is the only episode spoiler that we will do about the Cuban Missile Crisis. So this movie is really our. Our one window into that historical event which neither of us live through. So I'm mostly going off of Kevin Costner's account here, folks.

[Julia Claire]

Right, right, of course.

[George Severis]

So do you want to give it a shot?

[Julia Claire]

Okay, the thing that I'll say to intro this is for any of you out there listening who are big Kennedy heads, and I assume some of you are, you might be thinking that the name of this film, 13 days means that on the book of the same name by Robert F. Kennedy about the Cuban Missile Crisis, and you would be wrong. It is in fact based on a different book called the Kennedy Tapes Inside the White House during the Cuban Missile Crisis. And not to get too in the weeds here, but Kennedy, like Nixon would, after him, recorded a lot of his White House meetings And so a lot of the dialogue in this movie is taken directly from those tapes, which maybe is why it's as boring as it really could have used a theatrical hand, I think.

[George Severis]

Yeah, it actually is named thirteen Days because that is how long it is, which people don't realize. It actually is a full 13 days. It takes 13 days to watch. You know, we want to have it both ways because if this movie had been made in a more dramatic way and everyone had been either had been like real heroes and real villains, I'm sure we would have complained that this is overly mythologizing and overly jingoistic and whatever. And so now we have the opposite of that, which is just a very matter of fact to clear there is a little bit of mythologizing. And the Kennedys are really portrayed as essentially perfect throughout this movie.

[Julia Claire]

So crazy. And we will get to that as well. But yeah, it is an elegiac portrayal of the two of them, of Bobby and jfk, if I've ever seen one. Oh, my God.

[George Severis]

I really kept expecting, because there's a way to maintain the propagandistic tone while also introducing some flaws. And in fact, I think it would help. Even if your goal is to make an America first propagandistic movie, it actually would help to be like, well, he also had demons, you know, maybe portray him having an affair or something and be like, but at the end of the day, he put his country first. But it's not even that. It's literally like he is perfect in every way.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah. And he. I mean, again, Bruce Greenwood, who plays jfk, and this is also a flaw of the screenwriting as well. He is just made to do all of these dramatic pauses where he turns inside profile and is. What did you say to me? Yeah. The portrayal of JFK is so over the top, but so cartoonishly, this was the world's most perfect man that it strains all credulity.

[George Severis]

So, all right, the Cuban Missile crisis at the most basic level was the titular 13 days, where the 13 day period between the US discovering via satellite imagery that there were these Soviet missiles on Cuban land that they did not know about before. And so there was a direct threat of nuclear war between the US and the Soviet Union. So the 13 days ref refers to the 13 day period where the Kennedy administration attempted to diplomatically disarm this very specific group of nuclear weapons and was attempting to avoid all out nuclear war. And so, you know, if you talk to anyone who lived through that period, they describe this like terrifying couple of weeks where at Any given point, the Soviets could have attacked the US and the attack, you know, based on the maps we see in the movie, could have gone all the way up to the, like, Washington, D.C. area from Cuba. And so it is seen, especially after the disaster that is a Bay of Pigs. There was a lot of skepticism about whether Kennedy would be able to handle something like this. And I think ultimately it is seen as a diplomatic win that he was able to avoid nuclear war in this instance. And so that is what we are seeing dramatized. It is, of course, a huge challenge to dramatize 13 days of diplomacy without like, you know, there are no. This isn't a war movie. There are no battles. This is a movie.

[Julia Claire]

It's a movie about meetings.

[George Severis]

It's a movie about meetings. It's also a movie about meetings all within the same administration. Like, it isn't even a movie about an election where there are competing visions of the country. I mean, yes, there are arguments between, let's say, the more hawkish Joint Chiefs of Staff and the more, you know, Adlai Stevensons of the world, who much more prefer to go, you know, diplomacy first. But I think the right way to make a movie about meetings and about diplomacy potentially would be to, like, over emphasize each character's personal connection to their political views. Like, maybe one of them has a more tortured past or history and that's why he is now more prone to being pro peace. Maybe someone else has like a. You know, you could show somehow that their experience in the military taught them that being more aggressive is the answer. We get no backup story for anyone. And it is just a series of sort of gentlemanly arguments.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah. And it would be one thing if this movie were boring, as we just said, because it was so realistic and it was so, like, based on the facts, but it also alters the facts to paint Jack and RFK in the most positive light. Like they kind of portrayed Bobby as a dove, wanting to let cooler heads prevail and be circumspect. And he was one of the most hawkish members of the administration, you know, who could have done a good job with this movie. I think this should have been director Ben Affleck.

[George Severis]

You wanted the Argo. You wanted Argo, but for the Cuban Missile crisis. Yeah. I think this might have been before your time on the podcast, but when we did Oliver Stone's jfk, which is in so many ways a completely insane movie, I mean, it is a movie that basically completely buys into completely disproven conspiracy theories about the JFK assassination However, it is a movie like there are people yelling, there are people being afraid of being assassinated. There are people that have, like, deeply held political beliefs that they will are willing to die for. You know, you gotta give me something to chew on here, Drama. I mean, I actually remember the COVID of this movie very well because I used to see it at Blockbuster because it is, you know, it came out in 2001. So it is very much like the era that both you and I and people our age were most likely to be going to the movie store with their. With their parents. It reminds me of the way that we both. Both remember the House of Yes poster very well with Marie. But I remember this cover very well because to me, it was so emblematic of, like, this is an adult movie. This is a movie. I wouldn't understand if I were to watch it. It is a political movie and it just. Even the COVID just screams boring. Like, it is just like three identical men in front of the American flag.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah. And it's crazy too, because this was a highly dramatic, tense time in American history and they made it so boring.

[George Severis]

I have to say, okay, let's say the political discussions and the things happening inside the White House, maybe we can keep those boring. And the whole point is, this is the hard work of diplomacy. It's not like you see it in the movies. It's actually a series of mature conversations and disagreements and negotiations. That's fine. But then you have to supplement that with. With scenes from real life, because they did have. There were scenes from Kevin Costner's family life which were just nothing. It's like the classic stock wife character whose entire role is just being like, be careful out there. I have 17 kids at home and they're not gonna like life without their daddy.

[Julia Claire]

And I'll talk to you about your report card later.

[George Severis]

Literally. Yes. Yeah. By the way, where's that conversation?

[Julia Claire]

I was on the edge of my seat.

[George Severis]

I know.

[Julia Claire]

We'll be back with more United States of Kennedy after this break.

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[Tara Davis Woodhull]

This is US Olympic gold medalist Tara.

[George Severis]

Davis Woodhull and I'm US Paralympic gold medalist Hunter Woodhull.

[Tara Davis Woodhull]

As athletes, our lives are about having.

[George Severis]

A clear path and a team that you can absolutely trust.

[Tara Davis Woodhull]

So when it came to getting the best mortgage, we chose PennyMac. PennyMac is proud to be the official mortgage provider of Team USA and you.

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[Julia Claire]

And we're back with more United States of Kennedy.

[George Severis]

The other thing that this movie tried to do and this would have been more the Bobby Approach. Bobby, the movie we saw about the RFK assassination is have vignettes of the rest of the world while all this was happening, even just, you know, let's say there's a secretary in the White House you get a little peek into what her life is like outside of her job or the montages of people watching on the tv. Just have one line of dialogue that signifies how big of a deal this is to people.

[Julia Claire]

I know that this came about around the same time as the West Wing, and I kept thinking about that throughout the movie because it kind of looks like a terrible episode of the West Wing. I have a lot to say about Aaron Sorkin, but he would never allow for this to happen.

[George Severis]

I mean, this movie really does make you desperate for Aaron Sorkin. That's what I mean when I say I was missing, like, the Oliver Stone jfk, I'm like, okay, I believe you. Real life is more boring than movies. But I'm watching a movie. Like, I'm needing some movie stuff to happen here, folks.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah. So that's why I'm calling for a redo of this movie. Screenwriter Aaron Sorkin, director Ben Affleck.

[George Severis]

Oh, yeah.

[Julia Claire]

Let's talk about some of the choices that they made here. So from what I read about this movie, and I did Fact check the IMDb trivia.

[George Severis]

Wow.

[Julia Claire]

I did the work. And it does seem like a lot of the IMDb trivia is accurate. And the screenplay of this movie, you're not going to believe it was not exciting to a lot of people. It kind of sat on the shelf at the studios for a while, and then Kevin Costner got interested in it and that renewed some sort of spark in developing this movie. Unfortunately, Kevin Costner, as we alluded to, plays basically a secretary of scheduling who was the real life person he is based on, was one of Bobby's friends from Harvard and was known as part of the, like, Irish mafia in the White House. And I've seen a lot of Boston accents butchered in my time on this spending planet. I have never seen anything like this before. This is a Boston accent, Kevin Costner's, that is so from outer space that it makes the Nancy Donovan character on 30 Rock, the Julianne Moore Boston accent, look plausible.

[George Severis]

Yeah, it makes it look subdued and sort of, sort of elegant. Something that was so funny about the accents is I believe, and you know, if I'm wrong, I apologize. I believe that in the beginning, obviously you slowly realize you are in Washington D.C. but there isn't, you know, a card that says Washington D.C. and so the accent almost, to me, it actually made me think we were in Boston because of how exaggerated it was. I was like, oh, this is their way of setting the scene by being like, look how they're talking. We're in Massachusetts, like, because I would even say that it got a little less crazy after the first scene. But in the first scene with the family, it's almost like they're doing like an accent off him. And his wife and the kids are sort of being like, how much can we turn this up just to kind of show off? How much can we do before the director is like, all right, guys, tone it down.

[Julia Claire]

It's so crazy. And I understand that for good actors, the Boston accent is hard. Kevin Costner famously does not have an ear for accents. It is a suicide mission to give him this role. So the other two leads, Bruce Greenwood, who plays JFK and Stephen Kolb, Bri Vanderkamp Seisman, who plays rfk, are doing a passably better job. Especially Stephen Culp is doing, I think, a pretty serviceable, like Boston Brahmin accent. He actually sounds like he listened to a lot of tape of Bobby. Bruce Greenwood goes in and out. I really appreciated that as someone whose dad has a very thick Boston accent, that he said cuber instead of Cuba. What Kevin Costner did was delete the letter R from his speech. And that's not accurate necessarily. You have to add it in weird places. And also it's just anyways. But Bruce Greenwood, sometimes he's really good. Sometimes he goes a little southern.

[George Severis]

There was a lot of slippage into Southern accent, I would say in this film.

[Julia Claire]

So it's very confusing. But I have to say, Stephen Culp did a great. And Stephen Culp also looks so much like Bobby. They really got his, both him and Bruce Greenwood. The head shapes are perfect. Like sometimes when they're out of focus in the frame, you're like, oh, wow, that looks just like them. I have no idea what Kevin Costner is doing.

[George Severis]

Well, what's funny about the Kevin Costner character is it's the most random casting, most strange performance and most random character. Because as we said, this character was not in any of the history written about this incident. He was not a starring member of the drama. Which makes me think that maybe it was sort of intentional in that they wanted to show the everyday heroism of a sort of like third rate team player, you know, in the administration, which I sort of respect. It's like telling the tale of 911 through like a janitor who worked in the towers or something. Like there is something. There is something interesting and theoretically cinematic about something like that. But then he also is just sort of a company man. Like he doesn't have some huge point of view that we are supposed to have strong feelings about.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah. And I feel like a lot of the screenplay being from kind of his point of view, is meant for these sweeping speeches that he gives to JFK about how good JFK is. He just is telling him, you're better than all of us. You'll make the right decision.

[George Severis]

I think actually that's a very interesting thing to point out because this movie almost shows its hand by portraying JFK as good, mostly via things other people say about him. Yes, it is. Really. It's like a live reenactment of Here is How to Create a Cult of personality around a person. Self evidently. See, he's not doing anything that crazy or that heroic, and yet everyone around him is like, God, he's good.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah. I mean, we kind of almost said all there is to say about the plot of this movie and the specifics. It's a lot of, like, intentionally trying to drum up gravitas, both with the portrayal of JFK and Bobby, and also the, again, the melodramatic music. This film is telegraphing to you so hard that it wants you to believe that it is important. And it really falls so flat to me. And that's why it was also, spoiler alert, a box office bomb. It did not even recoup its budget.

[George Severis]

I know. And yet the reviews were not bad. And, you know, we both read the Ebert review, and Roger Ebert is someone I really. I mean, I was about to say someone I really trust. He is someone I really trust in the sense that he's such an OG and it's always fun to read his reviews, but he is in classic kind of film critic of that era. He's a quirky guy that loves to randomly decide. He loves something that everyone else hates or randomly decide that some actor is like the best actor of his generation. And so sometimes you do read his reviews and you're kind of like, how much caffeine had you had that day? You know, what was the. What was the vibe like in the Office?

[Julia Claire]

Yeah, you're like, oh.

[George Severis]

Yes, yes. But he really, you know, he gave this film three out of four stars. He. He says it's a really kind of like grown up, mature movie about politics. He does say, you know, for anyone who knows about the history of this is not gonna give him anything new, but it is sort of like a credible reenactment of what happened. I don't know. I mean, in terms of the Kennedy angle, which is, of course, what we're here to talk about. One thing I found interesting was the reference to Munich, which is that Joe Kennedy was instrumental in appeasing Hitler during early diplomatic talks before the beginning of World War II. And it is seen as a great stain on his reput, that he basically, for lack of a better term, like, thought they could negotiate with Hitler and thought that by conceding certain things, they would be able to avoid war. Which was, of course, a complete misread of the situation. And that is something that people bring up to Kennedy because they're basically like, don't do what your father did and, you know, appease the Soviets in this. In this case.

[Julia Claire]

Or they bring it up behind his back and say, I hope appeasement doesn't run in the family.

[George Severis]

Right, exactly.

[Julia Claire]

Which, you know, the screenwriter really thought he ate with that line.

[George Severis]

And again, this is a dramatization that really would help if they made it a little more clear. On the one hand, he doesn't want to follow in his footsteps and make this grave mistake and essentially concede to the Soviet Union and. Or start World War Three. And then on the other hand, he has just had this terrible Bay of Pigs disaster. So he also doesn't want to go too far and basically kill a bunch of troops for no reason.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah, and I think I thought that was interesting too, that they showed JFK on the phone with the head of the New York Times asking him to, like, hold the story about the missiles before JFK can get on TV and tell everybody about the United States plan. And the. The New York Times guy is like, we just did this with the Bay of Pigs and it was just a disaster. And then the JFK character is like, tell your reporters they'll be saving American lives. It's just so. It's just milked for every ounce it is worth. It's so crazy.

[George Severis]

I'm glad you brought up the New York Times thing, because there are these little vignettes that are meant to kind of show you, like, wow, this is what the inner workings of politics are like. And not just politics, but power. You know, the idea that there is communication between the media and the White House in these secretive ways that maybe we don't know as outside civilians. And I think another element of that is when. When a reporter gets a message from Khrushchev via some Soviet spy and then goes and tells it to the White House. Like, there are all these, like, backroom dealings, not necessarily nefarious, but just backroom dealings that the average person might not have access to. And I was wondering is one of the reasons I'm finding this so dull because the day to day of what we read about our current White House is so much crazier that I'm not quite scandalized that I don't know, let's say a, a, a reporter got a coded message from the Soviets and then went to the White House to tell him, or you know, someone made some mistake and they accidentally escalated to defcon, whatever when they didn't mean to. It seems overall so tame compared to what I imagine is currently, currently happening in the White House that I was kind of like, is that it?

[Julia Claire]

I just think that this was all an execution problem. Yeah. Because this was an extremely dramatic time in American history. We were on the brink of nuclear war.

[George Severis]

I know it's kind of hard to.

[Julia Claire]

Get more exciting than that. And they just telegraphed it in the most plodding way possible. I just couldn't believe how much they whiffed it.

[George Severis]

I, I have to say one of the big signs that you know this is not going well is when you realize the film itself is not interesting. So you intersperse it with montages of nuclear bombs going. Because that's what they do. This is a series of meetings, as you said. Meetings, meetings, meetings, phone calls, meetings, call to your wife, honey, are you coming home? Meetings, meetings, meetings. And then it's like, oh God, we have to do something that keeps the audience interested. So it just will cut to footage of an atomic bomb going off, which also, by the way, as a viewer is confusing because you're like, is that happening?

[Julia Claire]

Yes.

[George Severis]

But instead it just is cutting to basically like, it almost is like a James Bond opening montage where there's just kind of like red fumes. We're going to take a short break. Stay with us.

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[George Severis]

And we're back with United States of Kennedy.

[Julia Claire]

There's also this Weird use of black and white that I didn't understand either. Like, sometimes it intersperses between scenes that are in black and white and scenes that are in color. Most of the movie is in color. And so I was wondering, what is the point of the black and white scenes? What is the message there? What is it trying to tell us? And I don't think there is a message. I don't think it means anything. It's not like hearkening to the past.

[George Severis]

Exactly. It's not hearkening to the past. I thought maybe this was, like, something that didn't happen but could have or something that one of them is imagining. It is kind of a real filmmaking 101. Like, if you're gonna film something in a different way, it has to signify something that's just sort of how visual actual semiotics works. Yeah, I. I struggled with that as well.

[Julia Claire]

That was another big choice. That made no sense.

[George Severis]

It's funny. It's so easy to watch a movie like this and fall into film criticism 101. And I. I kept being like, this film does not pass the Bechdel test. Like, it's just all, this is a type of movie that used to be everywhere. And then people were like, all right, we can mix things up a bit. And now, at least a movie like this would have some. Some twist with. Or, like, even, again, not to be like, a blogger that has just discovered feminism, but, like, they could have had at least one of the wives have. Give her. Give her a health problem. Give her something. Something to go off of, you know, if it's like. Or have, like, okay, Kevin Costner's kid had his report card that he was showing to his parents. What if he had. You know, one of the plot points was that, you know, the dad was going to miss the parent teacher conference. You know, I'm. I'm really kind of scraping the bottom.

[Julia Claire]

Of the barrel here. I.

[George Severis]

We're begging you.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah. I mean, the fact that this is a movie about most powerful country in the world being on the brink of nuclear war, and it doesn't feel exciting or like there were any real stakes is so crazy. It is such a huge indictment of everyone involved in this movie.

[George Severis]

Yeah. If anything, to be honest, I thought we would watch this movie, and then it would be a great opportunity to discuss the Cuban Missile crisis in more detail. And, you know, apologies to our listeners, but I'm kind of like, I got to go, and I got to go hit the stacks.

[CarMax Ad Representative]

I got to go.

[George Severis]

I got to go read A little bit more. I didn't get what I needed here.

[Julia Claire]

Kevin Costner wanted this movie to be important so much. He really went on a diplomatic offensive of his own with this movie and made sure that President Bill Clinton and George W. Bush screened this. George W. Bush screen this at the White House. And then Kevin Costner. And this is true. This was in the IMDb trivia, but I did fact check it. Kevin Costner went to Havana, Cuba and screamed this for Fidel Castro.

[PennyMac Ad Representative]

Wow.

[Julia Claire]

And then they had a lively discussion afterwards about it.

[George Severis]

You know, this is an interesting sort of element of this that maybe we can get into. The mythology surrounding something like a Cuban Missile crisis is interesting because it is almost like fetishizing diplomacy.

[Julia Claire]

The pen is mightier than the sword.

[George Severis]

Exactly. The pen is mightier than the sword. Which I ultimately, I'm like, I believe. I believe. Yes, yes.

[Julia Claire]

I should love this movie. I should love the concept of this. And I do believe all of that. And I do think that the aversion of World War 3 in the Cuban Missile Crisis is a thing worth celebrating. Yeah. And there's so many elements to this story that are inherently dramatic and could be made into like a West Wing style, because that's a lot about what the West Wing is about, about as well, which is like diplomacy is our greatest weapon.

[George Severis]

And I found, for example, I think that the Adlai Stevenson character who is the one always fighting for the diplomatic solution and the one that's sort of like he even self identifies as a coward almost. He's like, well, if no one else is going to bring up the cowardly solution, then I will. But then he proves to be such a hero in the whole debacle because he's the one that has this very dramatic confrontation at the UN with a Soviets and basically like forces their hand and forces them to admit that they do in fact have missiles in Cuba, to me, that is such a starring member of this movie and yet we get no more about him than just the obvious.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah. I'm like, if you're going to make the movie from anyone's point of view, I think maybe it should have been Adlai Stevenson.

[George Severis]

Exactly. Because it's interesting. The two sides, if you will, in the argument boiled down to the most basic facts are like the Joint Chiefs of Staff who think we should escalate, and the Adlai Stevensons of the world who think anything you do don't escalate diplomacy. Above all, if we just handle this delicately, we will get where we want. And those people are never even in the same room together.

[Julia Claire]

I think there's only one scene where they're in the same room and it lasts about 20 seconds. And Adelai Stevenson is kind of like half heartedly making an argument to go a diplomatic route, which didn't even feel like historically accurate to me. I think Adelaide Stevenson, who was a really storied senator, he was kind of a liberal lion before Ted Kennedy and at the time of the Cuban Missile crisis, was the representative to the un.

[George Severis]

To the un. Yeah.

[Julia Claire]

And I think there could have been. I don't know, they made him into such like a wimp.

[George Severis]

Yeah.

[Julia Claire]

And I just don't believe that that was what he was really like. In fact, you see him at like a party scene afterwards being like, look at me, I cut my head off in front of everybody else.

[George Severis]

Yeah. No, it's. It's strange to show what his point of view is, but then not make it seem central to the story because basically what it boils down to is that all the side characters who are obviously a bit more one dimensional, have more interesting things to say than the three main leads. So the three main leads are jfk, Bobby and Kenny. The famous Kenny. Famous historical character Kenny, played by Kenny.

[Julia Claire]

We don't even need to say his last name.

[George Severis]

We don't even need to say his last name. What is it? Williams?

[Julia Claire]

O'. Donnell?

[George Severis]

O'. Donnell. Excuse me. And by the way, speaking of the Kennedy Engel, there is some talk of anti Irish and anti Cathol in, in the film. And as you said, Kenny o' Donnell was like an old Harvard friend of Bobby's and someone who like was in that Irish Catholic community with JFK and Bobby. So anyway, but the point is the three main characters are the ones that have the least distinct points of view and that makes it confusing as to why they're the leads. Anyway, here's the thing. We could go on about this and I already can feel myself, you know, being bored with my own repetition of just being like, huh? Why, why did they, why did they do that? No, I know there are, you know, there are diminishing returns to, to hearing two people just sort of express disbelief that a movie got made. I'll say this, as I watch more of these Kennedy movies, I'm starting to sort of notice this kind of sub genre which is just mythologizing the 60s in general. Like there's something about the JFK presidency. Do you want to believe it was this time of hope for America more broadly? Like there is kind of this, like post war, I think you Even see it in a show like Mad Men. It's almost like if you Google image America, you get the 60s. This is America at its culturally at least. You know, at its peak. You know, we're coming out of victory in World War II. There's an exciting young new president. Globally, America is the superpower, but is not, like, completely hated by everyone yet. And I almost think that after that, something like Mad Men or later portrayals of the 60s are like a correction of that. It's like people being like, well, it wasn't all. It wasn't all all good.

[Julia Claire]

Right? I think I just want to say that I just saw the poster, the movie poster again. And the tagline for this movie is, you'll never believe how close we came. I know that sounds like a movie that might be worth watching, but again, you feel none of the drama and none of the stakes in this movie. And I just don't know how they did it. I know Aaron Sorkin vindicated because he. He never would have let this happen.

[George Severis]

You know, I'll tell you what. One thing. You know, it's bad when you're sort of like praying for nuclear war to happen in the movie just so that there's some drama.

[Julia Claire]

God, something.

[George Severis]

Give us something like, give us the alternative history. All right, well, that is our analysis of the 2001 film Thirteen Days. If you want to read a dissenting review, you can Google Roger Ebert's review. If nothing else, he's always a great writer, always a joy to read.

[Julia Claire]

Or you can, you know, read about Fidel Castro's review of this movie, which also, apparently, he liked it. And so two men were always being pitted in the same sentence. Roger Ebert, Fidel Castro, they both liked this movie. We didn't.

[George Severis]

Yes, that's right. Two kings stand before me. I gotta say, you know, if you already watched the movie to listen to this episode, we appreciate you. If you've gotten this far and we've already gotten your listens, I'm gonna tell you, don't go.

[Julia Claire]

Don't do it. So that's it for this week's episode.

[George Severis]

Subscribe and follow United States of Kennedy for all things Kennedy every week.

[Julia Claire]

United States of Kennedy is hosted by me, Julia, Claire and George Taveras.

[George Severis]

Original music by Joshua Topolski.

[Julia Claire]

Editing by Graham Gibson.

[George Severis]

Mixing and mastering by Doug Boehm.

[Julia Claire]

Research by Dave Bruce and Austin Thompson.

[George Severis]

Our producer is Carmen Laurent.

[Julia Claire]

Our executive. Our executive producer is Jenna Cagle.

[George Severis]

Created by Lyra Smith.

[Julia Claire]

United States of Kennedy is a production of I Heart podcasts.

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[Julia Claire]

An iheart podcast guaranteed here Human.