George Severis (1:49)

Congratulations.

Julia Claire (1:50)

Congratulations.

George Severis (1:51)

Don't you think that this is leading us into, you know, a reaction to that? Like, within one year, everyone is going to be wearing, like, bright yellow and bright orange. There's no way this is gonna last.

Julia Claire (2:01)

Yeah, we are gonna see a swing back in the other direction that is going to leave Big Bird absolutely quaking.

George Severis (2:09)

They're calling it Big Bird. Sheep.

Julia Claire (2:12)

Quiet. Big Bird. Well, apart from that, most importantly, we have watched some of the worst movies ever made in the history of cinema.

George Severis (2:24)

And I have to say, there are bad movies in so many different ways. You know, there's bad movies in the sense that there are bad movies that are boring. There are bad movies that are too long. There are bad movies that are both boring and too long. There are bad movies that are not boring, but wildly offensive and insane.

Julia Claire (2:41)

Right? It's a kaleidoscope of bad movies.

George Severis (2:44)

It's a real. It's a real kaleidoscope I have to say, you really did get the short end of the stick, because the few kind of good ones, not even kind of good ones, a few good ones, which I would say are like Grey Gardens and Jackie, were before your time. So we really brought you in and said, welcome. Time to watch the worst movies you've ever seen.

Julia Claire (3:00)

Time to watch 13 days and it's three hours long.

George Severis (3:04)

Time to watch Blonde and the famous blowjob scene with JFK and Marilyn Monroe.

Julia Claire (3:10)

Oh, my God.

George Severis (3:11)

So we did it, though. We watched. We watched all the movies, and we lived to tell the tale. So today's episode is for us to sort of take stock of everything we have learned, all the amazing characters we've gotten to know, the historical tidbits that took us by surprise, our favorite interviews, and the questions we still have about the Kookiest family in America.

Julia Claire (3:33)

And no, we're not talking about the Kardashians.

George Severis (3:36)

Honey, you wish we were talking about the Kardashians.

Julia Claire (3:40)

So let's start with the biggest surprises. What were some of the most shocking things we learned doing this podcast?

George Severis (3:48)

I will start with kind of a sad one after, you know, after we had a good laugh, but something that, for me, something that, for me was genuinely surprising. And I recognize that this is my own. A gap in my own historical knowledge is I really didn't know about Rosemary Kennedy. This was something that, when I was brought in to do the podcast, it was something that we talked about in the early meetings as kind of the topic that instigated the interest in doing a. In doing a podcast about the Kennedys. And it is kind of like, to me, the emblematic, like, beginning of the Kennedy curse. It's funny because people often talk about all the freak accidents and all the political scandals and assassinations, which are obviously all horrifying. But there is something, you know, especially if you're looking at it through a kind of religious lens, there's something about Rosemary Kennedy having this completely tragic thing happen to her under the guidance of her father that was almost like the original sin of that generation of the Kennedys. So, yeah, I think it's Rosemary Kennedy. It is all the detail surrounding what led to her being lobotomized, how it was dealt with in the family, how it was ignored, how the. How her father didn't see her for the rest of her life. All the kind of sins and faults of the family are really, like, at full volume when you look at the

Julia Claire (5:16)

story of Rosemary and the fact that that also so closely tracks JFK's presidential run as well. The fact that that happened, those events so close together when I first learned about it, I knew about it before, but that was the thing that was most shocking to me, was how recently it had happened when JFK ran for President.

George Severis (5:40)

Well, there's also something almost too eerily perfect about the dark underbelly of the family versus what is presented to the public. To think everyone is seeing this healthy young family enter the White House and they're the great American hope. And meanwhile, there's this horrible secret that's being, you know, hidden from the public.

Julia Claire (5:59)

Someone literally, like, locked in a room far away. Yeah, it's really ugly.

George Severis (6:04)

What was for you? What were some of the big. Some of the surprises for you?

Julia Claire (6:08)

Oh, my God. First of all, I think some of the affairs that were basically confirmed in historical record was really surprising to me. I'm thinking about Mary Pinchot Meyer. Like, I think even for someone who, like, baseline, knows as much about the Kennedys as I did coming into this, you know, I knew the rumors, obviously. I knew, like, the reputation that Jack was a serial philanderer. The Mary Pinchot Meyer episode was, like, genuinely shocking to me that it is confirmed and she was signed in at the White House so many times, almost always when Jackie was out of town. Like, that's just learning how flagrant it was really shocked me completely.

George Severis (6:56)

I know it's. It's funny, the things that are.

Julia Claire (6:59)

And then she was murdered.

George Severis (7:00)

And then she was.

Julia Claire (7:01)

Right.

George Severis (7:01)

Exactly. And then she was murdered. Like, it is. It's so in your face. It's funny, the. The conspiracies that are false and the ones that are potentially true. Like, you think about something like all the theories around Marilyn Monroe and, you know, we can never know for certain, but ultimately it does seem like that was a bit overblown. Like, it seems like maybe they had one night together, but it wasn't some sort of extended affair. And yet people are obsessed with the Marilyn Monroe story for obvious reasons. But then there's all these other, in many ways, more shocking affair stories that are out in the open and no one really talks about or they're sort of lost to the sands of time.

Julia Claire (7:38)

Yeah. And it really shows you what a different time it was, because I think the Mary Pinchot Meyer situation is a perfect example of something that was like an open secret in D.C. but, like, kind of never made it to the larger public consciousness. Whereas with the Marilyn Monroe stuff, I was expecting, like, I had always been like, oh, it's probably overblown or whatever, but Then when we got to the research, I was like, I bet that there's actually more there that I don't know. And then I was wrong because there really is almost nothing concrete to point to a long standing, any sort of, like, significant romantic relationship between the two of them.

George Severis (8:20)

No, completely. I think something we were both surprised by were just all the details of Joe Kennedy's rise to power. This was the episode we did last week. I mean, just from a. Just a very basic fact that I didn't know is I didn't know that he was already incredibly privileged and wealthy in his own family. I had always sort of like passively bought the idea that he was the one who lived the American dream and came from nothing. And then his children were the kind of trust fund babies. But in fact, he was born very rich and just then was also talented at multiplying his wealth.

Julia Claire (8:59)

Yeah, he was absolutely born on third base. And I was completely the same. I thought I bought into the, like, rags to riches ethos about him.

George Severis (9:08)

Not only was he born rich, by the way, Rose, his wife, was the mayor's daughter. The mayor of Boston's daughter. I mean, they were like a royal couple of.

Julia Claire (9:18)

Of Boston. And that's the real royalty when you're royalty in Boston.

George Severis (9:22)

Yeah, they were sort of the Ben Affleck and Matt Damon of their time, if you will.

Julia Claire (9:26)

Yeah, I just. I actually think that that's such a real testament to Jo's self myth making, I think. I mean, I think until recently, until we did this episode, you and I both had like, alluded to thinking of Jo as someone who was like a rags to riches story completely. He also wasn't a bootlegger.

George Severis (9:44)

Oh, yes. That's something we learned. He had many flaws.

Julia Claire (9:47)

Many flaws. But he wasn't a bootlegger.

George Severis (9:49)

He committed many crimes. Now call white collar crimes, and potentially even worse than white collar crimes. But he wasn't a bootlegger. That's where he drew the line.

Julia Claire (9:58)

He actually did a lot of technically legal, just shady stuff around Prohibition, and that is something we should celebrate.

George Severis (10:10)

That's true. That's true. And speaking of Kennedys, we should celebrate. Julia, you learned about your favorite Kennedy.

Julia Claire (10:14)

My favorite Kennedy, Eunice Kennedy. I mean, a woman after my own heart, if there ever were one. We had the incredible Eileen McNamara on to talk with us about her. She wrote a book on Eunice. I just. I mean, she was a tall, mouthy broad with a thick Boston accent. What more could you want in this world?

George Severis (10:38)

I really knew nothing about her.

Julia Claire (10:40)

I mean, Yeah, I didn't either.

George Severis (10:41)

I also. And if there was one thing I knew, it's that she founded the Special Olympics. But to be honest, and maybe this is, you know, my own biases, I assumed that that was kind of like a, you know, a philanthropic surface level thing that she did, in the same way that, like, you know, people that go to galas in the Upper east side have, like, a pet charity. I didn't realize that she had dedicated her entire life to disability rights, that this was a huge part of her legacy. If anything, the impact she had on actual public policy was greater than her brothers.

Julia Claire (11:16)

And she influenced a lot of, like, federal policy that Teddy would introduce on the. The Democratic side in the Senate. Yeah, yeah, she's. And also, I think, to your point, George, when we think about someone who, like, runs a charity, it just evokes a very, like, kind of quiet, measured disposition. And from what we know, what we now know about Eunice, she was, like, extremely in your face. And dogged is the only word I can think of in terms of wanting to advance the cause of people with intellectual disabilities. Yeah, that anecdote about September 11th happening and her basically telling everyone that we can't stop working.

George Severis (12:06)

No, she had a sort of moral backbone that is like, what you're supposed to associate with the Kennedys. Like, that is the myth of the Kennedys, that there are these incredible public servants, and of everyone we have studied, she's the one that actually has that more than anyone else. And simultaneously, she's the one no one knows about. I mean, it's so ironic.

Julia Claire (12:25)

Yeah. No, I think that's spot on. She is kind of the platonic ideal of what a Kennedy is and should be. And no one knows who she is, including. Including me, before we. I mean, I had heard the name, but I just. I did not know the extent to which she has shaped public policy in this country for people with intellectual disabilities. I mean, just her family, like her and Sergeant Shriver are really, like, pillars.

George Severis (12:54)

I mean, it is, you know, talk about, like, a true kind of liberal, progressive power couple. Like, the idea that she is a founder of the Special Olympics and a huge presence in the disability rights movement. And then he is one of the founders of the Peace Corps. Yeah, like the Special Olympics. In the Peace Corps. You know, there are very few things in, I don't know, American culture that you could point to and say, this is a true. I mean, there are many issues with the Peace Corps, and you could critique it in many different ways, but it. Both of them clearly had the desire to create something pro social and to do work that was. That was important.

Julia Claire (13:31)

Yeah.

George Severis (13:32)

While all their family members were having affairs and having people killed. Just kidding. Allegedly.

Julia Claire (13:38)

And shooting heroin.

George Severis (13:39)

And speaking of shooting heroin, you know, one of my favorite. One of my favorite facts, and we're still talking about, you know, biggest surprises. I just can't get over this. RFK Juniors obsession with roadkill is something that has really stayed with me. This is something I only learned about a few weeks ago. But I knew about the bear carcass in Central Park. That is something I remember reading about. I knew about his dead tapeworm in his brain. There are so many different factoids about RFK Jr that really stay with you. But one thing I didn't know is this story about how he brought a chainsaw to a beach and beheaded a beached whale.

Julia Claire (14:19)

That's right.

George Severis (14:19)

I mean, it really just paints a picture.

Julia Claire (14:21)

And then strapped it to the roof of his car.

George Severis (14:23)

That's correct. That's correct.

Julia Claire (14:26)

We'll be back with more United States of Kennedy after this break.

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Julia Claire (14:56)

So good you'll want to leave a voicemail about it. Sell your car today on Carvana. Pickup fees may apply. And we're back with more United States of Kennedy.

George Severis (15:12)

Another sort of like, if we're on kind of like small factoids. I really enjoyed the episode we did on George magazine, which we were, if I do say so myself, very ahead of our time. Because since then, George magazine has been depicted extensively in the Ryan Murphy Love Story show. But one of the sort of funny things about it is seeing what political figures and political commentators that we now know in one way got their start at George magazine. And one of my favorites, one of my favorite facts is that Kellyanne Conway was a columnist for George magazine. Another one of my favorite stories, of course, is how when they did the photo shoot with Cindy Crawford for the first cover, they first had her put a sock in her pants to have, like, as a visual gag to have kept it bulge. Should have kept it. But they ended up. They ended up airbrushing it out. But, you know, little things like that. I will. I will treasure.

Julia Claire (16:10)

I mean, this has been a real. It's been a pleasure in the JFK Jr universe to revisit 90s New York.

George Severis (16:18)

Yeah, definitely.

Julia Claire (16:20)

Which is, I think, why people love story so much, the Hulu Show. And before we get to the good media about the Kennedys, one of my big surprises that we alluded to in the intro is that there are simply zero good movies about the Kennedys.

George Severis (16:40)

It is, I would say, like, the closest is Jackie. And I liked Jackie enough. But I have to say, I. I wasn't as blown away by it as I think I was supposed to be.

Julia Claire (16:51)

You liked Oliver Stone's jfk, though, didn't you?

George Severis (16:54)

Oh, that's true. Well, okay, this is. The thing is, like, probably the best movie on a craft level that we watched was jfk, and yet it is a psychotic, conspiratorial, like, cocaine dream.

Julia Claire (17:08)

And that was. That was before my time as well. So I didn't even get to watch the psychotic cocaine dream.

George Severis (17:12)

It's crazy. I mean, it's. It's one of the most amazing Joe Pesci performances I've ever seen, and I've seen a lot. I would confidently say it was a great movie, but a wildly irresponsible thing to produce. And it is. It just goes to show you, it's a fun kind of peek into what America. Cinema. American cinema was like at the time. The fact that that movie could get nominated for so Oscars and whatever else, but that's certainly the best movie. I mean, the best movie we watched, to be clear, was Grey Gardens. But I think the best narrative film we watched was. Was jfk. Even though I would say I do not agree with its main thesis, but otherwise, I mean, the ones we've watched together, you know, that movie Bobby, which is about a variety of people's people and how they reacted to where they were when Bobby Kennedy was assassinated.

Julia Claire (18:04)

It's so crazy. I mean, so that was the episode that I guessed it on before I was host.

George Severis (18:09)

Yes, before you were. Before you were host.

Julia Claire (18:11)

And that movie, I think I had seen bits and pieces of it before. I forgot how absolutely elegiac they were about him. I mean, obviously, it's like, you know from the trailer that this is gonna be very laudatory towards Bobby. And I like Bobby the person well enough. But, I mean, we said this at the time that, like, they treated him like he was the last real civil rights leader in America.

George Severis (18:47)

It really beat you over the head with it. And I was even open to the movie being about, you know, people's perceptions of him. Like, you. You don't have to buy into that narrative to be like, well, these people did. And this is who. Yeah, this movie is about.

Julia Claire (19:01)

Totally.

George Severis (19:02)

But I think it actually did sort of take it too far.

Julia Claire (19:05)

What other movies do we watch here? We watched Blonde, which was terrible. One of the worst movies I've ever seen. I will. I want it to be. I never want to see it again. I think it should be banned.

George Severis (19:15)

Yeah. Much like jfk, I would say Blonde is like a movie that is so beautiful on a craft level, but. But evil at its core.

Julia Claire (19:22)

Yes, evil. Really irresponsible and evil.

George Severis (19:25)

And, I mean, we watched House of Yes. Which I loved. I think you liked a little less.

Julia Claire (19:29)

Yeah, well, it was fun. I mean, what am I. I'm not going to enjoy watching Parker Posey for Parker Posey.

George Severis (19:35)

Be insane. Come on.

Julia Claire (19:36)

Like that. That was really fun. 13 days. Horrible. For a different reason. Just so boring.

George Severis (19:42)

I mean, that one was just boring. That one. You're sort of inexcusably boring. The thing with the movie episodes is, you know, when we originally had that idea, we wanted to kind of, like, have a break from serious stuff and chat about something a little more light. And then what it ended up being is we had to keep in the edit, keep cutting all these extended parts where we just repeat how much we hated every movie, which I'm sure was not, you know, enjoyable for the listener. We're just being honest here.

Julia Claire (20:10)

I. I think it's important. Well, how many movies did we do over the course of the podcast? Like 10?

George Severis (20:15)

Yeah.

Julia Claire (20:16)

I mean, I think it's really beautiful to see the wide array of truly dogshit Boston accents actors.

George Severis (20:25)

And you didn't even have to do watch Peter Skarsgrd in Janky, which is the worst of all.

Julia Claire (20:29)

Oh, my God. And I hear there are some. I. I didn't see Chappaquiddick. That was before Michael.

George Severis (20:34)

Oh, my God, that's right. I forgot about that. That's a bad movie for also reasons of kind of. I guess it is both boring, but it's also like. It's the kind of movie where you're like. As you're watching it, you have to remind yourself you're watching a movie.

Julia Claire (20:51)

Yeah.

George Severis (20:51)

You know what I mean? It's like going to a concert and the singer has no stage presence, and you're like, I wish they would bring someone out that actually knows how to do this.

Julia Claire (21:01)

You know? I think that's what I've found overarching in the Failures of these film adaptations is that they are so much less exciting and less dramatic than the actual events. And that's crazy to me that they weren't able to transpose these very dramatic events in history into a compelling film because it seems like it should be a slam dunk. Like, I know we said this a bunch on the 13 Days episode. Like this was a period of time where America was on the brink of World War 3 and they made it into a boring ass movie about meetings.

George Severis (21:40)

I think the fact that so many of the movies were bad really points to the reason the Kennedys break people's brains. It's like the movies are either completely buying into the Kennedy mythology like Bobby, or they're so far in the other direction that they're crazy and conspiratorial. And people are unable to kind of grapple with the Kennedy family and the various legacies of the Kennedys in like a normal, straightforward way almost. It just like, it's this weird thing. Like, it's just so. The mythology is so ingrained in day to day American life that people don't know how to deal with it. Which is why, honestly, I thought in a weird way, House of Yes. The kind of like low budget Parker Posey, like, indie comedy that's about how her and her brother have clearly an incestuous relationship where their fetish is acting out the JFK assassination. In a weird way, I'm kind of like, that is the most accurate.

Julia Claire (22:45)

Yes.

George Severis (22:45)

Portrayal of the Kennedy obsession that is in the American psyche. Like, there's just something demented about it.

Julia Claire (22:51)

Yes, Completely agree.

George Severis (22:53)

But speaking of surprises, and speaking of Kennedy media, I have to say one of the surprises for me was how generally good the Ryan Murphy show was.

Julia Claire (23:01)

Yeah.

George Severis (23:02)

Like, I did not expect that of all the media we would be watching some of it by renowned directors and Academy Award winning actors. The thing that would ultimately be the most fun to talk about. You know, I know we had our critiques of it, but like, we ultimately basically liked it was a Ryan Murphy show.

Julia Claire (23:18)

I know. You know, as we said, when he. When he cooks, he really cooks.

George Severis (23:24)

Yeah. I'm surprised at how good it was and I'm also surprised at how big of an impact it made. I mean, we talk about this all the time. Like, what a sort of coincidence that we were in the process of making a podcast about the Kennedys during this, like weird two month period where they were suddenly relevant again in like a pop culture way. Not just in a. In a political way.

Julia Claire (23:47)

I actually, I never. I never told the listeners this. But I was in the West Village a few weeks ago, and outside of Co Bigelow Old Apothecary in the West Village. And that is one of the places where the headbands that Carolyn Bessette Kennedy wore, where she purchased them. And I saw a sticker that I sent to George and our producer outside of that store that says, be yourself. You are not Carolyn Bessette Kennedy.

George Severis (24:15)

I mean, well, that's also, you know, the thing with the. Doing a podcast about the Kennedys is that you start seeing them everywhere. Like, in a similar way. Like, I, for example, our. Our friend Benny Benito Skinner, like, wore a tie that had JFK on it as some red carpet. And I was like, wow, that's so interesting. Like, what is a story there? Or like, I was at the gym and I saw someone wearing a. A hat that said Jackie O. Which is merch from the. As I've said, the gay bar in Mykono is called Jackie. Oh. And I was like, that's interesting. You know, it's funny how I'm trying to think of something I could. I could compare it to. It's almost like how, I don't know, seeing someone wearing a Ramones T shirt doesn't mean they like. Like the band the Ramones. It's just. It is like classic American imagery at this point. And like, that's what the. What the Kennedys are.

Julia Claire (25:08)

Yeah. I think one of the pleasant surprises of this show was just kind of how, I guess how prescient it was. It's weird to say that, but it just, you know, the Kennedys have had a resurgence in relevance in the last two years that they probably haven't had since the 60s and 70s. It is unfortunate for us that they have had that resurgence in relevance because a lot of that has to do with RFK Jr. But it also made for a lot of interesting stuff for us to talk about.

George Severis (25:43)

There's some overlap here, but those were kind of our biggest surprises. But then we also made this list of the most interesting things we've learned. For me, I really knew very little about Lee Harvey Oswald. You know, honestly, a recurring theme in this episode is my lack of knowledge about thick. Ed is going in. And I will put my cards on the table. You know, I did not go to high school in. In America.

Julia Claire (26:08)

He's Greek, everybody. He's Greek. I'm sorry.

George Severis (26:10)

I went to an English. I went to a non English speaking high school and then I studied STEM in college. I didn't study history of the communities and So I have these gaps in my knowledge about both American history and also, you know, unrelated American literature. It's. It's something that often I'm very kind of embarrassed by on a day to day level. But.

Julia Claire (26:28)

And I. And I make. And I also contribute to that. I make you feel ashamed of it.

George Severis (26:32)

Of course. Of course. And that's why you were hired. I think I didn't grow up with the kind of obsession over something like the JFK assassination, the conspiracies surrounding it and Lee Harvey Oswald that I might have, if I had American parents, if I, you know. And so I think that was an interesting deep dive for me. I didn't know how messy that whole investigation was. I didn't know his background where he had this very confused politics that was both, you know, interested in leftist politics and communism, but also, you know, joined the army and also defected to the Soviet Union and had crazy issues with his family and with women. He was just such a strange, mysterious figure. And I think that was. And it was also the only episode we did about. About the JFK assassination, really, other than talking about the conspiratorial Oliver Stone movie. So that was a big one for me.

Julia Claire (27:30)

And yes, we know that. We never dedicated a full episode to the JFK assassination. We see your comments. We were sorry. But honestly, I mean, that was by.

George Severis (27:41)

That was by design. Yes, it was. I think we wanted this podcast to be sort of a. I've been calling it like a pop culture history of the Kennedy family, you know, and there

Julia Claire (27:54)

are so many documentaries about the JFK assassination that could explain it.

George Severis (27:59)

Yeah.

Julia Claire (27:59)

And have explained it much better than we could. So we would invite you to go watch any of those. We're just. We're here for recaps of 13 days.

George Severis (28:09)

That's right. That's right. No, I mean, to me it's like, it's exactly the kind of thing where, you know, this podcast job is to analyze on a meta level, like the conspiracy theories surrounding it and the media that has been made about it, rather than the assassination itself.

Julia Claire (28:24)

Right.

George Severis (28:25)

I. One thing I really want to avoid is pretending I'm any sort of historical source for anyone.

Julia Claire (28:32)

Right.

George Severis (28:32)

But what was. What were some of your favorite things we learned?

Julia Claire (28:37)

Well, I mean, it wasn't my favorite thing. This was like the most. One of the more interesting things we learned was actually my first episode as co host, which was the murder of Martha Moxley. I had no previous knowledge of this whatsoever. And for those of you who haven't listened to that episode, I found it Completely fascinating. But her connection to the Kennedys was that the person who was accused of her murder was the nephew of Ethel Kennedy, who is Archie Bobby Sr's wife. I just didn't know anything about this case. And it's. And, like, I talked to people who are, like, I talked to my mom about it and my dad, and they were like, oh, yeah, that was all over the news. That was absolutely everywhere at the time. As George and I always say, we're famously young, so it happened when I was too young to have known about it. But a horrifying case, but, like, really fascinating. And the ties with RFK Jr. RFK Jr shows up in so many of these stories and not in a good way. So I really recommend that episode. If you haven't listened to it, I thought it was super interesting.

George Severis (29:51)

And I would say that along those lines, in terms of a huge, huge scandal and a huge story that I knew nothing about, just by virtue of not watching the news at the time, is the William Kennedy Smith rape trial. So this was. I mean, it was a horrifying story on its own. Right. On a sort of true crime level. But the thing that I also found very fascinating was that it was a really important time in media history because it was one of the first, if not the first, I believe, livestreamed trial. So without that trial, we would not get to the point of, for example, everyone watching O.J. simpson on TV. And that was, I think, investigating the media angle and the kind of like true crime angle was very. Was very interesting.

Julia Claire (30:44)

Yeah, to me, totally.

George Severis (30:46)

I think in terms of something slightly less depressing, although infuriating in different ways.

Julia Claire (30:51)

Yeah.

George Severis (30:52)

One of my favorite facts we learned recently, this was in our Joe Kennedy episode, was that Joe Kennedy hired a famous D.C. columnist to write his speeches. He was, like, on staff at the New York Times. At the New York Times, but then also on staff with Joe Kennedy. And he would write Joe Kennedy's speeches and then simultaneously cover them in his column. And there's things about, you know, there's something about learning stuff like that that really puts things into perspective. On the one hand, it's infuriating. On the other hand, you think, okay, wow, we think we're in such a horrible moment in terms of trust in institutions and trust in media now. It's always been up and down. There's always been corruption on both sides of the aisle. On both sides of the aisle. And frankly, I feel similarly about things like the Martha Moxley murder and the William Kennedy Smith rape trial, where it shocking things. Simply happen all the time and everything. Always. We have this bias, this, like, current history bias. Like, we think everything we're living through is so unique and has never happened before. And a trial like that or a story like that can actually completely capture the entire country, and then the next generation forgets about it because they never lived through it.

Julia Claire (32:10)

Exactly. And not to be annoying, but, you know, I have a history degree. I've always loved history. And, like, this is one of the big reasons why I've always loved history is because I think recency bias can be so intoxicating. It can be like, oh, my God, we are living through the first moment ever completely. I think it's really important to learn history because context is everything. And there have been so many moments like that over the course of doing this show that I've really loved, learning even more about these freaky people.

George Severis (32:46)

Yeah. I think it's no coincidence that we keep making Trump comparisons, whether it's, you know, with Joe Kennedy or with jfk. Obviously the comparisons are imperfect. And I'm not arguing that JFK is the same as Trump, but it is important to see Trumpian elements in other people because it reminds you that he's not an anomaly. Yes, he's not an anomaly. Like, he might be the kind of 2026 version of this particular kind of American phenomenon, but he's not the first person to be, you know, corrupt and a liar and power hungry. And, you know, it. It's. It a. It's a good reminder.

Julia Claire (33:25)

Totally.

George Severis (33:26)

And, you know, when. Especially with. With Kennedy related history, you know, you think we're living through such unprecedented times, and you're reminded, like, we've talked about multiple political assassinations that have happened in public that then people had to rewatch on television. You know, there just are somehow always shocking things happening, especially in America.

Julia Claire (33:47)

Yeah. And not just the political assassinations that happen in public, but also, like, the members of this family who have perpetrated crimes.

George Severis (33:56)

I mean, you think about something like Chappaquiddick, it's like, if that happened now, let's say, with a member of the Trump family or the member of the Biden family, everyone would act like it is completely unprecedented if the exact same thing happened.

Julia Claire (34:09)

Yes, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, Chappaquiddick is so fascinating. It always has been and it always will be.

George Severis (34:15)

Yeah. I think Chappaquiddick and Rosemary were the two stories that really, like, got me hooked and made me interested in, like, doing these. Doing these deep dives.

Julia Claire (34:25)

Yeah. And. And, you know, this is a Family for whom we still have so much national reverence. And there are two things working there. One is just that a lot of people just don't know the bad stuff. Like all, like, the. The depths of the bad stuff. And then there are also people like us, I think, if I may speak for both of us, who, like, know all the bad things and still are able to acknowledge their positive contributions to the country.

George Severis (35:00)

Yes. It's almost like two things can be true at once.

Julia Claire (35:02)

What?

George Severis (35:03)

That's crazy. So, speaking of things that are true.

Julia Claire (35:08)

Yeah. We should talk about some of the things that we haven't covered. I already mentioned the JFK assassination. Sorry, sorry. To our haters.

George Severis (35:17)

Yeah. We've just never. You know, it is one of those things that is almost like the void at. At the center of the podcast. You know, it's almost too obvious. You know, we're too indie to talk about the main thing.

Julia Claire (35:29)

That's right.

George Severis (35:30)

So, yeah, we've never done an episode that's like a second by second analysis of the JFK assassination, but obviously, because we're punk rock. Because we're punk rock. Exactly.

Julia Claire (35:41)

We'll be back with more United States of Kennedy after this break.

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Julia Claire (35:59)

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George Severis (36:03)

Oh, no.

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Julia Claire (36:09)

Yeah, the bird looks out of your league anyways.

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Julia Claire (36:15)

Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. And we're back with more United States of Kennedy. Me.

George Severis (36:27)

Something else we haven't talked about that kept honestly getting pushed. And then it. There was just no room for. It is. We wanted to do an episode about Lem Billings, who was by some counts JFK's gay best friend, for lack of a better. For lack of a better term. And, you know, as with anything Kennedy related, you can imagine the conspiracy theories that exist about, like, latent homosexuality and homosexual experiences and. Oh, my God, God forbid someone, you know, straight man is friends with a gay person. Whatever. But we did want to kind of.

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George Severis (37:01)

We wanted to do a deep dive on that just because it seemed like sort of a window into JFK as a person that was different than his. Either his family or his issues with women.

Julia Claire (37:13)

Yes. And I still feel after all this, there are certain Kennedys Where I feel like I really have a firm grasp on them and JFK is honestly not one of them. I just think that like personality wise, I feel like I don't have a great sense of who he was. He still feels like an enigma to me. And I am sad that we didn't get to do the Len Billings episode because I agree, I think it would have kind of shone a light on a different side of him that we haven't explored.

George Severis (37:48)

Speaking of jfk, one thing I kind of keep mentioning in a half baked way without having the historical knowledge to back it up is everything surrounding JFK and RFK's surveillance of civil rights figures. I mean, this is one of the big kind of shames of their time in politics. And I think it would have been really great to have a super serious historian on to explain all of that to us, separate fact from fiction. And so I think that is something that just on a purely historical level I was interested in.

Julia Claire (38:24)

I mean, and there's another kind of conspiracy theory laden topic. You know, there was basically, there's been speculation that the genesis of the Kennedy administration surveilling civil rights figures comes from FBI, then FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover having blackmail on the Kennedys and kind of blackmailing RFK Sr. Into wiretapping Martin Luther King and many other civil rights figures at the time. It's a very interesting and shameful period of our history.

George Severis (39:06)

It also would have opened up the space to potentially do the Clint Eastwood movie J. Edgar starring Leonardo DiCaprio which.

Julia Claire (39:15)

Where he has gay sex with Armie Hammer, right?

George Severis (39:17)

I believe so. Wow. The Clint Eastwood Armie Hammer collab you didn't know you needed.

Julia Claire (39:23)

Yep. Well, we'll have to watch that one. Just the two of us. Just for fun.

George Severis (39:26)

Just the two of us. We'll do a movie night. I'll make the popcorn. I mean, I do. I am. It is one of those movies that I am genuinely curious about, but I could never imagine myself pressing play without having to do so for work.

Julia Claire (39:37)

Yes, totally.

George Severis (39:38)

I do sort of regret that that never happened.

Julia Claire (39:40)

I just remember the stills. Leonardo DiCaprio wearing really bad prosthetics. That's like, that's my, my North Star image of that movie.

George Severis (39:52)

Yeah, it is one of those, you know, Oscar movies that like exist for exactly three months during Oscar season and then no one ever talks about ever again. Right.

Julia Claire (40:01)

Because it also, I don't think it won anything. I think it was supposed to be like Oscar bait. Much like Bobby.

George Severis (40:08)

Yeah, totally.

Julia Claire (40:09)

Emilio Estevez is Bobby.

George Severis (40:10)

And Clint Eastwood has such a complicated place in Hollywood because sometimes they like him, sometimes they don't. He's obviously conservative.

Julia Claire (40:18)

And the empty chair that he yelled at.

George Severis (40:20)

Yes, exactly. Although I gotta say, you know, I recently watched his latest movie, Juror Number two, on a plane, and it's so good. I highly recommend it. He's a great filmmaker.

Julia Claire (40:30)

I think my husband saw it. I don't know. He sees. But what a great plane movie it sounds like.

George Severis (40:36)

Great plane movie. Yes. Sort of a platonic ideal of a plane movie in terms of other things we haven't covered. This was sort of a pet interest of mine that I never looked into. But I know that there's a band called the Dead Kennedys, and I know there are songs that reference the Kennedys, and we've talked about sort of every kind of pop culture except music, which I think is kind of interesting. Like, we've talked about so many movies and TV shows and documentaries and books, of course, but we've never, like, talked about songs that reference the Kennedys or, like, Kennedy imagery and music videos. And so I'm sure there's so much there that we just haven't scratched the surface of.

Julia Claire (41:16)

I mean, baseball season is upon us. There is the song that plays in Fenway park at every single home game, sweet Caroline by Neil diamond, which is about Caroline Kennedy, which is kind of crazy.

George Severis (41:28)

Oh, my God.

Julia Claire (41:28)

Of course. Yeah. Which I still think is kind of crazy that he was like, I'm gonna write a song about this, baby.

George Severis (41:37)

Yeah. No, it's funny. I mean, the only time I'm now realizing that we did bring up music in the context of the Kennedys was in our episode about Taylor Swift and Connor Kennedy. And she did, I believe, at some point, like, write a song about Ethel Kennedy and perform it for the Kennedys. There was some story there, but, yeah, I mean, it is crazy to think there's a band called the Dead Kennedys.

Julia Claire (41:59)

Yeah. I do also think that Taylor Swift music video for Blank Space is, like, very evocative of the Kennedys. It's very, like, old Money Kennedy.

George Severis (42:09)

Yeah. And she's. She. It's doc. Her interest in the Kennedys is documented. Like, she's talked about it publicly.

Julia Claire (42:14)

Right.

George Severis (42:15)

I actually thought I was corrected, but I thought the. The Taylor Swift song Last Great American Dynasty was about the Kennedys. But I have been told by many Swifties in my life that it's, in fact, not.

Julia Claire (42:24)

It's not. It's about the. The lady whose house she bought thought in Rhode Island.

George Severis (42:30)

So those are sort of the Things that, you know, if we. If we had 10 or 20 more episodes that we would. We would maybe get to. But. But as we. As we kind of close out, we had some final questions for one another. Let's see. Maybe. Let's start simple.

Julia Claire (42:48)

Julia.

George Severis (42:50)

Will Jack Schlossberg win his congressional race?

Julia Claire (42:53)

You know what? But I think, yes, I think it's very likely. And will we have had something to do with that? Who's to say? I mean, I think, as we've talked about, he's definitely gotten a boost from the Hulu series Love Story, even though he purports to hate it and calls it grotesque. But, no, I mean, he continues to Poland first, which is wild,

George Severis (43:21)

I have to say. My prediction. And maybe I'm being overly. I don't know if optimistic is the right word, but maybe I'm being willfully. I'm willfully ignoring what's right in front of me. But I believe that at some point, the New York political machine will sort of, like, kick into high gear, and either debates will happen where Jack seems unprepared, or Jerry Nadler will, like, really start pushing for his protege.

Julia Claire (43:45)

I need Jerry Nadler to do that because I love Jerry Nadler. And I'm sorry, this is not the political moment where I want more inexperienced people in office, where I want more people with zero public service experience.

George Severis (44:00)

I have to agree.

Julia Claire (44:01)

At the helm, my prediction. But unfortunately, my prediction is, yes, I think he is in the perfect district to win by Bashar Al Assad numbers. And, yes, that is a criticism of the Upper east side and Upper west side.

George Severis (44:18)

Um,

Julia Claire (44:21)

so the question that I'll kick back to you, George, is, yes. Which Kennedy conspiracy theory do you believe?

George Severis (44:29)

Ugh, this is tough. I mean, I am, of course, terrified of on Mike. Like, there is nothing worse than a podcaster on Mike explaining a conspiracy theory they believe. It is my biggest fear that there will be a clip of me being like, well, okay, but hear me out. There was the other tape, and if you look at it from that angle, then it's clear that it wasn't directed at him.

Julia Claire (44:49)

He doesn't act alone.

George Severis (44:50)

So I simply. I simply cannot answer that question in good faith. But I.

Julia Claire (44:58)

Which one can you answer in bad faith?

George Severis (45:00)

Right. Ultimately, I believe that there is clearly something off about the official Chappaquiddick narrative. I don't know what it is, and there's no way to know.

Julia Claire (45:10)

I don't even think that that's a conspiracy. It's like, yes, it's like he killed her.

George Severis (45:14)

Yeah.

Julia Claire (45:15)

Sorry, I love Teddy, but yeah.

George Severis (45:18)

And then I think that I'm not sure if I believe in a conspiracy, but I think as much as I'm not, you know, quite Oliver Stone, I do think a lot of the, A lot of the facts about the, about Lee Harvey Oswald and about the, the JFK assassination are kind of inherently vague in a way that is designed to make you go crazy. And I sort of refuse to go crazy by, by not learning more than I need to about it. Are there any conspiracies that you, that you are, I mean, obsessed with the

Julia Claire (45:50)

murder of Mary Pinchot Meyer? Like, that's crazy to me. That is crazy to me. Something is really off there.

George Severis (45:57)

It's still unsolved all these years later.

Julia Claire (46:00)

Like, nothing about she was murdered in broad daylight near her house. And the explanation that we got as we did the research about the man who was accused, it just doesn't add up. None of it. Mary Pinchot Meyer, I mean, that one to me is like a gleaming conspiracy. And maybe to a lesser extent, I do believe that J. Edgar Hoover was blackmailing both the Kennedys. And I think he had, I mean, he just had dirt on absolutely everyone. And I do think that that is how he got a lot of more conservative policies pursued in the Kennedy, the Justice Department.

George Severis (46:44)

Yeah. And you know, honestly, I will say one of the things that really made me conspiratorial is the episode, it was before your time, I think, where we talked about the intersection of organized crime and.

Julia Claire (46:59)

Oh yeah, Jimmy Hoffa.

George Severis (47:00)

Jimmy Hoffa. Both Jimmy Hoffa and rfk, which was sort of like the lens through attribute everything, but also kind of the long standing relationship between the Kennedys, back to Joe Kennedy and organized crime figures. I'm not talking about any specific conspiracy, but I'm just. There's something about it where I'm like, oh, there are fully negotiations happening we don't know about. There are connections between people we don't know about. There are people that are, you know, enemies in public, but friendly and private. And so that to me, the Jimmy Hoffa of it all really like made me feel like there's something they're not telling us. Okay, next question for you. Who is your favorite Kennedy?

Julia Claire (47:45)

I think it will come as no surprise to you that it's Eunice and it will always be Eunice. And I can't believe that I didn't know basically anything about her before we started this. I still love Teddy from like a psychological level. I find him to be the most fascinating. As we've discussed The Kennedys are not a very introspective clan. But to me, as someone who grew up with Teddy as my senator, he was just someone who seemed to be, like, wrestling for his whole life with his demons and with the things that he had done. And there's something really interesting and redeeming to me about that. So I think Eunice and Teddy are my favorites. What about you?

George Severis (48:33)

You know, obviously, I don't want to say the same. I don't want to say Eunice again, even though that was, as we've now mentioned many times, the. The person we were most sort of surprised by. I will say I really grew up around a lot of reverence for Jackie. Oh, because she was such a big pop culture figure in Greece, because of her Onassis connection. And while I. And we have learned more about her during this podcast, she does remain this cipher in a weird way. Like, there are times when I think. And, you know, apologies for this statement, but there are times when I think she was kind of an airhead, like, when I'm like, wow, she really was. You know, sometimes you watch clips of her and you're like, wait a minute. She's, like, not really stringing sentences together in a way that I would expect. But then there are other times on the other side of things where I think she's, like, some genius, and she was, like, the person, you know, keeping the family together. I think this is very much how she is portrayed in the Ryan Murphy Show. Like, she really is this kind of, like, hardened matriarch, and so. And I also find all the fictional depictions of her to be so fascinating. I think it's so funny to see Natalie Portman try it and Naomi Watts. And so I think that I will always have some sort of reverence for Jackie O. As, like, this kind of pop culture figure, this, in weird ways, gay icon. I think I love the Gray Gardens of it all has always been so fascinating to me.

Julia Claire (50:04)

The bouvier side.

George Severis (50:05)

The bouvier side, yes. And I realize they're not, you know, they're not technically characters. But the other thing is we. At some point, we were talking to the guy that wrote the Gray Gardens musical, and he was gonna come on, and then the sort of. The timing didn't work out. But I'm fascinated by the bouvier side, and Jackie's come up within these sort of, like, society circles. And I'm also fascinated by her time with JFK and how she dealt with his indiscretions and how she developed this public Persona that I think was very kind of almost ahead of its time. Like, the way she almost saw herself as a character, it feels very, you know, contemporary. Like, she was almost like an influencer in a weird way. I do think that, that, that is someone that I'm interested in. I think. Also, while I don't necessarily think JFK Jr. Is an especially interesting figure on his own, there's something about the George magazine era that is just so juicy to me. Like, the idea of starting a sexy political magazine during that time and the people he got to write for him, it really, like, it makes me want to be a fly on the wall during that era.

Julia Claire (51:21)

I expected to like JFK Jr. A little bit more. And when you see footage of the real JFK Jr. You're like, wow, this guy could have chemistry with a paper bag. Like, he's incredible. He's so magnetic. And I'm like, the big thing that I took away from that was they should have let him be an actor. He wanted to be an actor. They should have let him do it. Maybe he wouldn't have crashed the plane.

George Severis (51:47)

And it's funny. Finally, after so many generations, we are getting a Kennedy actor, which is Patrick Schwarzenegger. And it's sort of like. Like, that's what. Basically that's what JFK Jr. Wanted to be. He wanted to be on the White Lotus.

Julia Claire (51:59)

Oh, my God. And he would have imagine, like, present. Like if he had lived present day JFK Jr being like a salt and pepper White Lotus character. Come on. Incredible.

George Severis (52:10)

Oh, my God.

Julia Claire (52:11)

Here's the big kahuna question, which is, is the Kennedy curse real?

George Severis (52:16)

It's funny. I. On the one hand, I don't consider myself to be someone who. Who's conspiratorial in these ways. On the other hand, I can't. I cannot help but carry the generational trauma of being raised to believe in the evil eye by my two Greek grandmothers.

Julia Claire (52:31)

I was gonna say. I was gonna say, you're Greek. You believe in curses.

George Severis (52:34)

It just. It's. Unfortunately, it is part of my life. I'm not especially religious. I'm not. I like to think of myself as a rational person. I studied math and science in college. But I. It doesn't take much for me to decide that, you know, someone or something brings bad luck. And I don't even want to verbalize this. But there is a part of me that even doing this podcast, I'm like, we got to be careful.

Julia Claire (52:58)

We're.

George Severis (52:59)

We're spending. We're spending all this time talking about the Kennedys you never know what might happen. I mean, there, obviously it's a joke, but there's so many times when I've been like, anything as small as, you know, having wifi issues when we're recording on Zoom, like, they're listening.

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George Severis (53:14)

Or it's like, you know, a guest will cancel last minute, we'll have production issues. Whatever. I'm like, of course this would happen on the Kennedy podcast.

Julia Claire (53:21)

They're all, they're all somewhere pulling the strings.

George Severis (53:25)

So, yeah, I mean, do I ultimately do think that you could use logic to dispel the idea of a Kennedy curse? And so many of the different tragedies are either because the family encourages risk seeking behavior and also because they are, you know, in positions of power and people want to harm people who are in positions of power. But it does make you kind of think twice before. If a Kennedy walked into my apartment right now and said, you know, do you want to go to dinner? I'd say let's, you know, maybe not somewhere where there's a high chance of me, you know.

Julia Claire (54:03)

Right.

George Severis (54:03)

Walking into a street with a bus.

Julia Claire (54:04)

Right. And then you would sage your apartment afterwards.

George Severis (54:07)

Exactly. Yes. How about you? Where do you stand?

Julia Claire (54:10)

Oh, I'm a. Yes, I'm. I'm a. I'm. The curse is real, baby. Look, I. Yeah, I grew up Catholic, and a big part of Catholicism is just the knowledge that bad things will happen to you. So part of this feels like par for the course. But I mean, I really do go back and forth about whether or not I believe the curse is real. I think just since you said no, I'm going to say yes. I kind of. I. Yeah, there is a lot that is like the consequence of their own hubris, certainly. But there is also a lot that is weird and crazy and feels like it shouldn't happen. I'm gonna say 51%. Yes.

George Severis (54:58)

Great. And I think that, you know, if you want to kind of get pseudo scientific about it too, like, what is a family curse? It is a form of generational trauma, basically. Like, I think when you are, when your origin story is this larger than life patriarch who always flew too close to the sun, who raised his kids to believe in kind of like questionable things about power and money and women and whatever else.

Julia Claire (55:26)

Like you're raised by Icarus.

George Severis (55:29)

Yes. It's that stuff gets passed down own. And so, and, you know, add into that the chaos of being public figures, of, you know, expectations that both your own family and the public has of you, of this idea that you can do no wrong. And you don't have to follow the rules that normal people have to follow. Of course you're gonna get crazy. Crazy stories.

Julia Claire (55:55)

Yeah. Gosh. First of all, I can't believe this is our last episode. I'm sad.

George Severis (56:02)

I know.

Julia Claire (56:03)

I've really enjoyed spending time not only with you, George, because you are my friend and I enjoy spending time with you, but with this freaky little family. And I have really enjoyed getting to know so many of them and their myriad personalities and their little quirks and many sins. But. But I thought of this last week when we were discussing Joe Kennedy. There was a great quote in the New York Times review of David Nassau's book the Patriarch, and it comes from the Times reviewer Christopher Buckley. And I thought it really well encapsulated a lot of what we've talked about over the last season. And it's this. It's Kennedyland is terrain notably susceptible to idolatry, hate mongering, whitewash, conspiracy thinking, sensationalism, and other agendas.

George Severis (56:58)

And I'll be the first to say we are guilty of all of those and we apologize.

Julia Claire (57:02)

We've done everyone as if it were a checklist.

George Severis (57:06)

So I think that's a great place to end. And I want to say what's nice about this podcast is that it is evergreen and that it will exist forever. So if you ever, you know, find yourself wanting to suddenly learn about Eunice Kennedy or Kick Kennedy or a sort of random true crime story from the 80s that you never learned in school, it's all there. And we are very proud of the guests we were able to get. And some of them are, in fact, award winning academics, journalists, writers, and they have books that you can read, they have other podcasts that you can listen to. The podcast is kind of a survey of a bunch of different things and it's much more about breadth than depth. So if you like any of the topics, there's further reading that is suggested within those episodes that you can follow. But we are so grateful to everyone for listening. This has been so much fun.

Julia Claire (58:04)

Thank you, everyone.

George Severis (58:05)

Thank you, Julia. And there's no one else I would rather discuss a terrible movie with. And, you know, from now on, we can do that all the time without recording it and without being paid for it, which is not as good, but, you know, I think we'll make do.

Julia Claire (58:19)

That's right. Thank you everyone who's listened. We love you.

George Severis (58:22)

Thank you everyone. Bye bye.

Julia Claire (58:24)

Bye bye. United States of Kennedy is hosted by me, Julia, Claire and George Severis.

George Severis (58:30)

Original music by Joshua Topolsky.

Julia Claire (58:32)

Editing by Graham Gibson.

George Severis (58:34)

Mixing and mastering by Doug Boehm.

Julia Claire (58:36)

Research by Dave Bruce and Austin Thompson.

George Severis (58:39)

Our producer is Carmen Laurent.

Julia Claire (58:41)

Our executive producer is Jenna Cagle.

George Severis (58:43)

Created by Lyra Smith.

Julia Claire (58:44)

United States of Kennedy is a production of I Heart Podcasts.

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Julia Claire (59:03)

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George Severis (59:06)

Oh, no.

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Julia Claire (59:13)

Yeah, the bird looks out of your league anyways.

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