Jackie After JFK

Summary

United States of Kennedy: Episode Summary – "Jackie After JFK"

Release Date: August 4, 2025

Hosts: Lyra Smith and George Civeris
Guest: J. Randy Taraborrelli, author of Jackie Public Private Secret

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Introduction to the Episode

In this gripping episode of United States of Kennedy, hosts George Severis and Lara Smith delve deep into the post-assassination life of Jacqueline "Jackie" Kennedy. Focusing on her romantic endeavors and the intricate dynamics within the Kennedy family, the episode offers a nuanced exploration of Jackie’s journey as she navigates life after JFK’s tragic death.

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The Kennedy Family Dynamics: Mother and Daughter

The conversation begins with an examination of Jackie’s relationship with her parents, Janet Leigh and Jack Bouvier. Taraborrelli sheds light on the tumultuous marriage of Jackie’s parents and its profound impact on Jackie’s own relationships.

[06:03] Taraborrelli: "The problem with Jack Bouvier was that he was chronically unfaithful to his wife, Janet, and she kept going back to him despite that. Janet said, 'I will not raise weak daughters, period.'"

This firm stance by her mother shaped Jackie’s expectations and decisions in her own marriage, particularly concerning infidelity.

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Jackie Kennedy's Romantic Relationships After JFK

1. Marriage to JFK and Initial Struggles

Taraborrelli discusses how Jackie and JFK entered their marriage with full awareness of his propensity for infidelity, largely influenced by their mother’s guidance.

[06:03] Taraborrelli: "They knew he was probably going to cheat, but they decided to take a chance because of his money and power."

This premeditated acceptance set the stage for the complex emotional landscape Jackie would navigate during their marriage.

2. Relationship with Jack Warnecke

Following JFK’s assassination, Jackie sought solace in a relationship with Jack Warnecke, an architect who designed JFK’s memorial.

[05:10] George Severis: "Then there was Jack Warnecke, an architect who worked with her on preserving Lafayette Square in D.C."

Taraborrelli describes their bond as both personal and professional, highlighting the difficulties Jackie faced coping with her grief.

3. Involvement with David Ormsby Gore

Jackie also had a notable relationship with David Ormsby Gore, a British diplomat and friend of the Kennedy family.

[05:10] George Severis: "David Ormsby Gore, a British diplomat and friend of the family..."

Their relationship was marked by mutual respect and shared history within the White House, though it never culminated in marriage.

4. Marriage to Aristotle Onassis

Perhaps the most renowned of Jackie’s post-JFK relationships was her marriage to Greek shipping magnate Aristotle Onassis.

[28:15] George Severis: "She ended up with Onassis, which was a fateful decision influenced by both personal and financial considerations."

Taraborrelli emphasizes that while Jackie appreciated Onassis’s support, his infidelities were hurtful but different from JFK’s, as Jackie had developed coping mechanisms by then.

[45:58] Taraborrelli: "Jackie wasn’t in love with him. So it was hurtful, but it didn’t hurt the same way as JFK did."

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Impact of Relationships on Jackie’s Life and Public Image

Jackie’s relationships significantly influenced her public persona and personal growth. Her marriage to Onassis, in particular, transformed her image from America's First Lady to an international socialite, allowing her greater privacy and personal autonomy.

[48:13] Taraborrelli: "What you see when you see her with Onassis is all of that having been lifted from her. And now she feels that she can live a life that she created that maybe people don't understand, but it's hers."

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Clarifications on Rumors: Jackie and Bobby Kennedy

The episode addresses pervasive but unfounded rumors about Jackie Kennedy’s alleged affair with her brother-in-law, Bobby Kennedy. Taraborrelli firmly dismisses these claims, emphasizing their lack of evidence and the improbability given the family’s close ties.

[33:53] Taraborrelli: "There's no truth to that at all. These rumors are just so, like, they're created by people who don't understand the humanity of the folks they’re talking about."

He acknowledges the emotional bond between Jackie and Bobby, attributing it to shared trauma rather than any inappropriate involvement.

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Evolution Towards Feminism and Personal Growth

Jackie Kennedy’s journey is portrayed as a reflection of the broader feminist movement. Initially conforming to traditional roles, she gradually embraced independence and professional aspirations, especially evident in her later years.

[50:21] Taraborrelli: "She is really a symbol of growing feminism in America. She went from deferring to her husband to making her own decisions about her career and life."

Her determination to work despite expectations showcases her evolution into a strong, independent woman, no longer solely defined by her marriages.

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Other Romantic Entanglements: Warren Beatty and Robert Redford

The episode also touches on Jackie's brief relationships with prominent celebrities like Warren Beatty and Robert Redford, illustrating her attempts to rediscover personal happiness.

[42:00] George Severis: "What is true and what's false about her relationships with Paul Newman, Warren Beatty, Robert Redford?"

Taraborrelli recounts anecdotes demonstrating that while Jackie dated these figures, none led to lasting relationships, often due to mismatched interests or personal disinterest.

[52:20] Taraborrelli: "She made out with Robert Redford... but that was as far as it went. It was just a momentary lapse."

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J. Randy Taraborrelli's Insights and Research

Throughout the episode, Taraborrelli provides in-depth analysis based on his extensive research and interviews. He highlights the complexities of reconstructing intimate moments and stresses the importance of understanding Jackie as a multifaceted individual.

[53:31] Taraborrelli: "I reconstruct conversations based on what people who had them told me they said... to bring the reader into their world."

His methodology underscores the dedication required to authentically portray historical figures, ensuring that Jackie’s story is both accurate and compelling.

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Conclusion and Future Episodes Preview

As the episode wraps up, hosts acknowledge the intricate tapestry of Jackie Kennedy’s post-JFK life, emphasizing her resilience and capacity for reinvention. They tease upcoming topics, including discussions about Jackie's current family members and their roles within the Kennedy legacy.

[55:39] J. Randy Taraborrelli: "Next week we're talking about the Internet's on and off boyfriend, Jack Schlossberg."

Listeners are encouraged to subscribe and follow for more deep dives into the Kennedy dynasty’s enduring legacy.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• [06:03] Taraborrelli: "The problem with Jack Bouvier was that he was chronically unfaithful... Janet said, 'I will not raise weak daughters, period.'"
• [25:27] George Severis: "Jackie, you know, dealt with the sort of day-to-day humiliations of JFK's cheating..."
• [28:15] George Severis: "She was able to keep this private. No one knew about it until I wrote about it."
• [50:21] Taraborrelli: "She is really a symbol of growing feminism in America..."
• [52:20] Taraborrelli: "She made out with Robert Redford... but that was as far as it went."

---

Summary

This episode of United States of Kennedy offers an intimate portrayal of Jackie Kennedy’s life after JFK’s assassination. Through insightful discussions and expert analysis, listeners gain a comprehensive understanding of Jackie’s romantic relationships, familial pressures, and personal evolution. J. Randy Taraborrelli’s contributions enrich the narrative, providing depth and authenticity to Jackie’s multifaceted legacy. Whether you're a longtime Kennedy enthusiast or new to the saga, this episode serves as a compelling exploration of one of America’s most iconic women.

Transcript

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[Podcast Host]

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[Podcast Host]

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[John Lithgow]

Hello, I'm John Lithgow.

[George Severis]

We choose to go to the moon.

[John Lithgow]

I want to tell you about my new fiction podcast.

[Expert/Guest]

That's One small step for man about.

[John Lithgow]

Buzz Aldrin, one of the true pioneers of space.

[Expert/Guest]

You're a great pilot, Buzz.

[John Lithgow]

That's the story you think you know. This is the story you don't. Buzz starring me, John Lithgow on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Narrator]

What would you do if one bad decision forced you to choose between a maximum security prison or the most brutal boot camp designed to be hell on earth? Unfortunately for Mark Lombardo, this was the choice he faced.

[Expert/Guest]

He said, you are a number, a New York state number and we own you.

[Narrator]

Listen to Shock incarceration on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[George Severis]

Okay mom, what do you think when I say Jackie O.

[Lara Smith]

First of all, she was extremely popular in Greece when she was the first lady because she came to Greece in an unofficial official visit when her husband was the president, that made her extremely popular in Greece.

[George Severis]

So after Kennedy was assassinated and she started seeing Onassis, what was the public's response to that?

[Lara Smith]

Well, I don't know. I mean, it wasn't so much Jackie as, you know, Onassis the people hated because he had this affair with Maria Calles, the opera singer. And then all of a sudden, he abandoned her, essentially to have, you know, another gem in his collection. So have, you know, Mary, the widow of the US President. And, you know, that didn't go well with the Greek people concerning her. I mean, okay, it was a business agreement in a way. She was looking for security, both financial and physical security for herself and her children. And she wanted to get the ultimate status symbol, what was the word of the US President? So she wasn't very popular at the time. But it's not like they hated her or anything. It was more Narciss that, you know, they criticized.

[George Severis]

I'm George Severis. I'm Lara Smith, and this is United States of Kennedy, a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. Each week we go into one aspect of the Kennedy story, and today we are talking about Jackie O's dating life.

[J. Randy Taraborrelli]

And the thing is, she had such an evolution in her life. Her approach toward romance and sex was heavily influenced by her parents. But the insanity of her life constantly shook that foundation in really surprising ways.

[George Severis]

Yeah, and her relationship to the public really affected her private in a way that very few women in history have experienced. And mostly in that, she just didn't have a private life anymore.

[J. Randy Taraborrelli]

Jackie had a few notable relationships in the years after JFK's assassination. First with Jack Warnecke, an architect who worked with her on preserving Lafayette Square in D.C. and also designed JFK's memorial, the Eternal Flame, in Arlington National Cemetery.

[George Severis]

Then there was David Ormsby Gore, a British diplomat and friend of the family, really, who spent a lot of time in the White House during Kennedy's presidency. And, of course, Aristotle Onassis, Greek shipping magnate, one of the world's wealthiest men in the 20th century, and Jackie's sister's boyfriend.

[J. Randy Taraborrelli]

So today we are talking to J. Randy Taraborrelli. He's the author of Jackie Public Private Secret, which is a relentlessly researched biography of Jackie. He's here to discuss her most interesting relationships with dating and family. Randy, thanks so much for joining us.

[Expert/Guest]

I'm happy to be here.

[J. Randy Taraborrelli]

So this episode is primarily about Jackie's dating life, her romantic life, and to start, really, we wanted to ask what was her parents relationship, like, well, her.

[Expert/Guest]

Parents relationship, Janet, Janet Leigh and Jack Bouvier. It wasn't good. And it very much became sort of the template for both Janet and Jackie and Lee as to what not to do and what not to accept. The problem with Jack Bouvier was that, you know, he was chronically unfaithful to his wife, Janet, and she kept going back to him despite that. And it made Janet feel very weak. And Janet said, weakness is something that you inherit. She said, my mother inherited it from her mother. I inherited it from my mother. And she said, and I'll be damned if Jackie and Lee inherited from me. And she said, I will not raise weak daughters, period. So the eye was always watching for this strain of infidelity. And that's why it's so ironic that Jackie ended up with JFK because he was chronically unfaithful in the same way that her father was chronically unfaithful to her mother. But I will say that they didn't go into the marriage blindly. They knew what they were getting into. They made a decision as mother and daughter. They made a decision, you know, that, look, he's got money and he's got power, and he's a senator. He's probably going to be a president. He'll probably cheat, but let's hope he doesn't, and let's take a chance. And that decision was a fateful decision, and it was one that Janet regretted very much. She very much regretted, I don't want to say forcing her daughter into the marriage, but encouraging her daughter into that marriage. Because when JFK was unfaithful to Jackie was very hurtful, and Janet, the mom, blamed herself.

[J. Randy Taraborrelli]

Something that I find really interesting in the conversation that Janet and Jackie had and the choices that Jaci made with all the information that she had is that I think we get presented this idea that at that point in time, every woman just had to accept that every man was going to cheat. And she was a doting housewife at heart. And that's kind of the image that she did present as first lady, because it felt like at first, it seems like she felt like that was what was needed or desired for the role. But it's just so interesting to read about how many times Jackie made the decision to stay. And it was an educated decision and had all the information up front. And it wasn't a huge shock to her that he was having affairs. And it was more so the nature of the affairs or the specifics of the person that were the issue A lot of times.

[Expert/Guest]

Well, I think that what you're saying is very true. And the follow up to Jackie, Public Private Secret, which is my present book, JFK Public, Private Secret, I go into that a little bit more, and it's interesting, the bargains we sometimes make with ourselves in order to move forward with our lives. And Jackie went from this does not happen to me to, well, this does happen to me, but only because I allow it. And originally, when she first found out that JFK was cheating on her, she was like, no, this does not happen to me. And she was ready to file for divorce, and she met with attorneys and they. They were moving forward with the possibility of a divorce. And ultimately that didn't happen. And Jackie accepted a financial payment from JFK's father to stay in the marriage, which, you know, a lot of people have a dim view of, but I kind of don't. I think she earned it, you know, I mean, I just. I think that it was an empowering decision for her to, you know, make that deal because she knew that she wasn't going to be able to divorce this man. She knew that she was not going to be able to go up against the Kennedy machinery. It just wasn't going to happen, you know, so she made a choice and she did accept, you know, a nice payment to stay in the marriage. But then, you know, she learned another lesson, which is that money doesn't buy happiness, you know, and that was a hard lesson for her because she and her sister Lee were taught from a very early age by their mother that the secret to happily ever after is money and power. That's what they were taught. Come to find out, it wasn't quite true.

[George Severis]

It's funny, there's so much talk of weakness and strength in their family. I mean, it really is like an undercurrent throughout the book. And there's a way in which they talk about kind of the day to day of dating and marriage as though every day you're going to war. Like, there's something very intense about, like.

[Expert/Guest]

Every day you get up and you.

[George Severis]

Make do with what you have and you win, you know, And I was. I was actually thinking. I mean, this is sort of a tangent, but I was thinking this sort of contributes to Jackie's reputation as, like, a survivor. And I think also we were talking the other day about what makes her kind of like a gay icon. And I think that's a big part of it is just like this sort of like, even when the cards are stacked against her, like, she comes out on top. But speaking of Lee, just before we move on, I wanted to ask for anyone who might not know or who might not have read about the book. Like, one of the big things you talk about is that Lee was originally the one JFK was interested in. And there was a very conscious decision made, sort of collaboratively between Jackie and her mother that Jackie would be the one to pursue him. So can you talk just a little bit about the logistics of how that happened?

[Expert/Guest]

Well, that's something that surprised me in the research of my book. You know, that that decision had been made. And it made me feel badly for Lee because she's always in her sister's shadow. And later on, you know, Jackie gets Onassis, too, who was also Lee's first. This isn't to say that JFK and Lee had a big affair, as Lee and Onassis did. I mean, Lee and Onassis were actually in love. Leah just met JFK, and she was only 19 years old. He was in his 30s. And they had a nice. A little bit of a flirtation, but they. I don't. They didn't even go out. He was getting ready to call her to ask her out on a date. And when the mom found out about it, Janet, she was like, that's interesting. You know, and then she put this together in her head. Jackie is. I think she was about 24 years old, maybe 23. Lee was 19. And Janet's decision was that Jackie needed to get settled. That's what they called it back then, getting settled. Meaning you need to get married and get settled. And if you weren't settled by 23, that was not going to bode well for you in society. And so Janet's decision was to let Jackie have jfk. And she told Lee, look, you'll get the next guy, right? But this one has to be your sisters, because she needs to be settled. They had no idea what this was going to turn into. They had no idea whether this was going to be a happy marriage or. And certainly no idea that Jacket was gonna end up first lady. They were just. Janet was just trying to get her settled, you know, and so that's what happened. You know, Janet encouraged Jackie. You might wanna say, Janet made Jackie, you know, start going out with JFK to see, you know, if that could actually happen. And ultimately it did. And Lee ended up on the. Having sort of the short end of the stick in that respect.

[J. Randy Taraborrelli]

But the crazy part about that is that Jackie was engaged.

[Expert/Guest]

Yes. Well, you know, that is the crazy part, except for the Fact that they found out that the guy that she was engaged to didn't have as much money as Janet thought he had. And once that was determined, then Janet was like, well, he's not for you. And Jackie wasn't that crazy about the guy anyway. You know, the only reason that he was in the picture was because they thought he was wealthier than he was. But it wasn't like Jackie was absolutely wild about him. And it's funny thing, because I actually. Can you believe it? I actually interviewed that guy.

[J. Randy Taraborrelli]

Wow.

[Expert/Guest]

Like, about 25 years ago, you know, and he said, you know, that there was not a big spark between them, but there wasn't between Jackie and JFK either. You know, and when Jackie and JFK started going out, it wasn't, you know, it's fine, it was okay, you know, but today they would be considered to have a lack of chemistry. You know, today, if they were going out, they would probably take a look at the situation and decide, well, we're not right for each other and there's no chemistry between us, so let's just move on. But back then, that wasn't so much the case. Back then, they both really had a strong motivation to make this thing work. And so they just continued sort of like you say, every day is a battle to be won. Let's just figure out a way forward and get to the victory. And. And that's what they did.

[J. Randy Taraborrelli]

And it seems like Jackie, though, did have chemistry with other people. She had had, like, exciting romantic experiences before she met jfk. And, you know, aside from Jack Houston that she was, like, not crazy about. But were there any, like, specific instances when she was, you know, pre JFK that she was actually, like, excited and.

[Expert/Guest]

Well, you know, there were a few moments. There weren't a lot. You know, I actually always thought that she and Yuusha Auchen Kloss would have been great together. Unfortunately, he was her stepbrother, so that didn't work. But they were crazy about each other, you know, and they went to Europe together and they just, you know, he gave her her first kiss. I interviewed him, and he was still crazy about her, even in his old age. And kind of a little bit regretful that they could not be together, because had it not been for the fact that her mom married his father, they might have ended up together. But Jackie had a few experiences. I mean, she lost her virginity in an elevator in Paris, I think. I don't know that that was exactly passionate as much as it was interesting. Right.

[J. Randy Taraborrelli]

What's the story to that.

[Expert/Guest]

Yeah.

[George Severis]

What's the story there?

[Expert/Guest]

Well, the story. There's a better, bigger story than what happened. I mean, what happened was she met this guy. I can't remember his name right now, but it's in my book. And, you know, they hit it off and she ended. They ended up having sex in an elevator, which was. She was a virgin, so this was like huge. But that's fine. That's not what interested me, to be honest with you. What interested me was what happened after that, which was Jackie made Lee promise not to tell their mother. Janet, please don't tell mommy about this. And Lee promised. And then in order to curry favor with the mom, Lee went and told her, you know, and Jackie was so upset and felt so betrayed. And that to me, really said everything you need to know about that sisterly dynamic. That in truth, had the tables been reversed, Jackie might have done the same thing because they would do anything that they could think of to be in the mom's favor. And what better thing could Lee do than to tell her mother this? Right? So that's a story from my book, Jackie, Janet and Lee, which was about the mom and the two daughters. But I always thought that that was a really interesting story.

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[Expert/Guest]

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[George Severis]

That not a whole lot was salvageable.

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[Podcast Host]

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[John Lithgow]

Hello, I'm John Lithgow.

[George Severis]

We choose to go to the moon.

[John Lithgow]

I want to tell you about my new fiction podcast.

[Expert/Guest]

That's One small step for Man.

[John Lithgow]

It's about Buzz Aldrin, one of the true pioneers of space.

[Expert/Guest]

You're a great pilot, Buzz. As far as I'm concerned, the best I've seen.

[John Lithgow]

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[Expert/Guest]

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[John Lithgow]

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[Expert/Guest]

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[John Lithgow]

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[Expert/Guest]

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[Expert/Guest]

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[Narrator]

Columbia, what would you do if one bad decision forced you to choose between a maximum security prison or the most brutal boot camp designed to be hell on earth? Unfortunately for Mark Lombardo, this was the choice he faced.

[Expert/Guest]

He said, you are a number, a New York state number, and we own you.

[Narrator]

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[Expert/Guest]

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[Narrator]

Listen to shock incarceration on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[George Severis]

I'm trying to remember where if this was in the book or if you said it in an interview somewhere, but this idea that towards the end of her life, someone asked Lee, are you happy? And she said, I'm almost happy. Was that the right quote?

[Expert/Guest]

Yeah, that's it. I can't believe that you remember, because that's, you know, that that actually was me. Oh, it was you.

[George Severis]

Yes.

[Expert/Guest]

There you go. It was me, you know, the last time I saw her, because I really. I liked her so much, and she had such a hard life. And I remember asking her, she looked like she was okay, but there was always a sadness about Lee that. And I don't really know sometimes if it was that she sort of relayed this sadness, or was it that we know so much about her sadness that we sort of made her sad in our minds. Do you know what I mean? Whenever I saw her, I felt like there was sadness there. And I asked her, I said, lee, you know, are you happy? Are you happy now? You know, she thought about it and she said, well, I'm almost happy. And I thought, wow, I just don't even know what to make of that. I had never heard that before. And that made me sad. So there we go, right? We went right back to sadness. You know, I don't know that she was particularly sad in that moment, but I know I was.

[J. Randy Taraborrelli]

I mean, they both lost their sons, like, in a really close period of time, right? I mean, they had such parallels in their lives, even beyond just being sisters and the type of men that they were with in their life.

[Expert/Guest]

And the mom, you know, I mean, that the. The. The. And they were very different, too. They. They were so different in the sense that Lee was okay with infidelity. It's like Lee took after the father and Jackie took after the mom. The mother was not okay with infidelity, you know, and she and JFK were loggerheads about this throughout their entire relationship. Janet loved jfk, but she did not love some of those moments with her daughter. And Janet used to say of jfk, so many women, so little sense, right? But Lee cheated on her husband, both of them, you know, and she cheated on Stas with Onassis. And everybody in the family was like, oh, my God. Because Jackie never would have done that. Jackie did not. She didn't. She never cheated. And, you know, everybody in the family was like, well, how could Lee do this, knowing how her mom feels about it and how Jackie feels about it? How is. Because Lee took after her father, who also did it. And Lee, at one point, you know, when Jackie confided in Lee that she believed that JFK was cheating on her and she was thinking about divorcing him, Lee Said, why are you making such a big deal about this? You know, daddy cheated on mummy, and it all worked out just fine. And Jackie's response to that was, for who? Right? For who? Right? So they were very different in that respect.

[George Severis]

So Jackie, you know, dealt with the sort of day to day humiliations of JFK's cheating and of rumors that weren't even true. I mean, I was sort of surprised to learn that the Maryland affair was basically like a one time or a one weekend thing. I mean, some of these things were also sort of blown up in the media. But after JFK died, Jackie was still young. She was sort of, you know, one of the most famous women in the world. And what was her dating life like, kind of between JFK and Onassis? Like, who were the major figures?

[Expert/Guest]

Well, to answer your question, there was one major figure, and that was Jack Wernicke, the architect, who I had the great pleasure of knowing. And he was such a great guy. And he designed JFK's memorial at Arlington. And about six months after JFK was gone, he and Jackie started dating. And it was difficult for her at first because she was in such grief over Jack and she was suffering from such ptsd, but she really wanted to get on with her life and he really wanted to be the one, you know, and as I wrote in the book, it was. It was a complicated relationship. But he. I believe from what he told me and from knowing him, that he. He really loved her. And I think she really loved him too. He was such a good man and he was sturdy. He knew jfk. He had worked with JFK on Lafayette park, so they had that history together. And he was a good guy. And what's astonishing about it is that he asked her to marry him and she agreed. So you're thinking about Jackie Kennedy being arguably the most famous woman in the world at that time. We're talking about 65, 66, 67. Who was more famous than Jackie Kennedy. Yet how did we not know about this guy? You know, that's the thing that really, I mean, I asked Jack, I said, how did all this happen? And nobody knew about it. And he said, back then, we didn't talk about it, nobody knew about it. Today, if the most famous woman in the world was engaged to somebody, you would definitely know about it. I don't know who that would be. Who the most famous woman in the world is right now, I don't know. But certainly whoever that is, if she was engaged to be married, it would be on tmz right And Jackie was able to keep this private. No one knew about. To be honest with you. No one knew about it until I wrote about it. Right. And Jackie, public, private, secret. You know, that's. I mean, and that was like 60 years later, you know, so it's an incredible thing, you know, that celebrities could have that kind of. That kind of a secret back then. But he. He was crazy about her, and she was crazy about him as well, and.

[George Severis]

She didn't seek out the publicity, which is interesting. I mean, I. The relationship between Jackie and the press more broadly is interesting because it seems to me, at least, that on. On one level, she enjoyed the attention, but on another level, she was fiercely private and did not, you know, often give interviews. And. And I'm sure that she felt burned after, you know, being the literal first lady, where every move she made was so meticulously tracked, that maybe this was sort of a response to that, to want to be more private. But how long did that relationship last?

[Expert/Guest]

Well, it lasted from 64 to 67. And then how it ended was that Jack Warnick, he had spent a fortune on trying to give Jackie the lifestyle to which she had long become accustomed, Right? And he was spending money on helicopters, and he rented a house in Hawaii, and, you know, he went on a Hawaii vacation and took the kids and, you know, and she had no reason to believe that this was any kind of a strain on him because he certainly never showed that. And then his business started going under because he was spending so much time with her, and he was spending so much money on her that he ended up about a million dollars in debt. And so he called her one day and he said, listen, there's something that I gotta tell you. I hope it's not gonna change anything between us, but I'm about a million dollars in debt, and I think you should know that. And her response to this was, oh, right. That's what she said. Oh. And he said, well, I hope this isn't going to change anything. And she said, oh, okay, I'll get back to you. And she hung up. And he knew in that moment it had changed. And he told me he had no idea. He told me that Aristotle Onassis was hovering. He said, if I knew that one of the richest men in the world was in her midst, never would I have ever told her that I was in debt. But he didn't know. And Jackie, really, she was torn about this because her mom was like, okay, well, that's the end of him. And her mom loved Jack Warnecke. But, you know, look, she. Janet, felt like he had lied to all of them about his finances. She wasn't concerned about his indebtedness as much as she was concerned about, how did we not know this? And she told Jackie these famous words, which I think are so great, but you never hear anymore. You better wake up and smell the coffee, she told her. You better wake up and smell the coffee, she said, because if you marry him, his debt is gonna be your debt, and then. And you're never gonna be able to come out of it. And so Jackie made the decision reluctantly, I have to say, but she made the decision that, you know, she was not going to continue with Jack. And then that's how she ended up with Onassis, right? They remain friends, she and Jack Warnegie, all the way to her death. They remain very close friends. And around her 60th birthday, Jack Warnecke finally asked her, after all these years, what the heck were you thinking? Right? Like, Onassis and I are about as far apart on the map of romance that you can ever get. What was it that you saw in him? And Jackie said to Jack, oh, Jack, you know me. I have three lives. Public, private, and secret, which is where I got the title of the book from.

[J. Randy Taraborrelli]

So is there any way to know what her, like, net worth would have been around that time, that a million dollars would have ruined her? It seems to me like she was so wealthy at that time.

[Expert/Guest]

She was not. That's the thing, you know, she. She was not. She. She needed to figure out a way forward because the Kennedys had just, you know, they had not been generous with her. A lot of people think she had all this Kennedy money. She didn't. You know, she really did not. And her stepfather, who she loved very much, Hugh Auchincloss, was very wealthy, but he had already made it very clear that his money was going to be going to his natural children, not to Jackie and not to Lee. And Jack Bouvier, her father, his money, when he died, there was nothing there at all. Now, Janet had money from her husband, Hugh, but she did not offer it to Jackie or Lee. She told both Jackie and Lee, you got to figure this out, because you've been living this lifestyle for many, many years, since you were 13 years old and you moved into this house with my husband. You've been living. He sent you to Europe. You have been abroad, you've been debutante, but you don't have any money, right? So you got kids, and you've got to figure this out. You're not going to be able to live off of my money forever. So, yeah, no, a million dollars in debt at that time was not a thing that Jack. That's why Jan said, wake up and smell the coffee. You already don't have any money, now you're going to be in debt. So people don't know that. And I think that if people understood that, they would better understand why she ended up with Onassis. You know, because it was survival really. It was like, and it was, you know, the mom saying, you know, what are you going to do? And the pressure of being Jacqueline Kennedy and kind of feeling like a fake, you know, kind of feeling, well, you know, everybody thinks I'm this particular person and I certainly have this image, but when it comes right down to it, what do I really have? You know, I don't really have anything, you know, and so, yeah, no, a million dollars would have, would have not been good to be in debt at that time for Jackie.

[J. Randy Taraborrelli]

So also, was there any truth to the many, many rumors that we see about her and Bobby?

[Expert/Guest]

Oh, no, there's no truth to that at all. You know, I mean, I. Look, I did a lot of research into that 25 years ago when I wrote Jackie, Ethel and Joan, which was about Jackie and her sisters in law, Ethel Kennedy and Joan Kennedy. And I did a deep dive into that and I could not find any evidence to support it, not ever. And then, you know, and it's the kind of thing where you really have to think that these were real, actual people. And you know, today we think of them as sort of cartoon characters in a way. We don't think of them as real people. What would it take for a woman who witnessed her husband being murdered, Right. To then jump in bed with his brother? Right. I mean, it's like, what are you talking about? What would it take for a brother whose own brother was just assassinated to then jump into bed with his sister in law, his brother's wife? Like, these people would never do these things. So these rumors are just so, like they're created by people who don't understand the humanity of the, the folks were talking about. And if you knew Jackie, you knew that this would never happen and Bobby too. It just never happened. So I still needed to look into it because you never know. Anything's possible, right? But no, absolutely not.

[J. Randy Taraborrelli]

Yeah, it's interesting. It's like on the one hand that is something that happens. The trauma, bonding and the intimacy that's there and the like desire to be, you know, close with somebody who understands you, you know. But then on the other hand, it's just so hard to believe that there would be no evidence. And it's just interesting that it's still so pervasive, like this rumor.

[Expert/Guest]

Well, because it's. Because it's partially true. They did have an emotional relationship and Ethel did feel cut out because of it. And it's because Jackie was so wounded and Bobby was so wounded and Ethel was so strong in her faith that Bobby couldn't connect on this level because Ethel's view was, well, Jack is in heaven with, you know, with God and he's in a better place. And for Jackie and Bobby, that was just not true. For Jackie and Bobby, they felt like they'd been robbed of somebody they loved and he was not in a better place. A better place would be right here, you know, so Ethel's religion, in a sense, sort of alienated Bobby during this period of time. And so he and Jackie felt alike about these things and that's kind of what bonded them. So they did have. I mean, I would be safe to say they had an emotional affair, but I would definitely not say that it ever turned physical. But trauma bonding is a great way of putting it. I love that you said that because maybe I've never heard that phrase before, you know, but I think that that, that really does say it.

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[Expert/Guest]

A foot washed up. A shoe with some bones in it. They had no idea who it was. Most everything was burned up pretty good from the fire that not a whole lot was salvageable.

[Podcast Host]

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[Expert/Guest]

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[Podcast Host]

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[John Lithgow]

Hello, I'm John Lithgow.

[George Severis]

We choose to go to the moon.

[John Lithgow]

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[Expert/Guest]

You're a great pilot, Buzz. As far as I'm concerned, the best I've seen.

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[Expert/Guest]

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[Expert/Guest]

What do you say, Buzz? Another beer.

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[Expert/Guest]

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[Expert/Guest]

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[Expert/Guest]

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[John Lithgow]

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[Expert/Guest]

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[John Lithgow]

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[Expert/Guest]

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[Expert/Guest]

The first night was overwhelming and you don't know who's next to you and we didn't know what to expect in the morning. Nobody tells you anything.

[Narrator]

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[George Severis]

So speaking of unsubstantiated rumors, you know, while we have you here, before we get to Onassis, I mean, there's all these people, you know, Paul Newman, Warren Beatty, Robert Redford. There's all these, you know, big sort of a celebrities that were on and off attached to Jackie. What is your. You know, what's true and what's false?

[Expert/Guest]

Well, most everything is false.

[George Severis]

Okay.

[Expert/Guest]

But I do like the Warren Beatty of it all, because I like. I like the story of Warren Beatty. You know, they went out on a couple of dates. He was beautiful, she was beautiful. They look great together. But the problem that they had was that Warren Beatty would not stop talking about himself, and he wouldn't stop talking about show business and the movies and his life. And, you know, he was at this point in his career, he was young, and he was all about his career and all about himself. And I think so many people could relate to this, because when this came out in my book, I got so much mail from people saying, that happened to me. That happened to me. And what it is. What happened was he had talked about himself all night long, and he brought Jackie to her front door, and just as she was about to go in, completely frustrated with this date, he said to her, so how about you? How are you doing? Right. Like, right before she was getting ready to just walk away from him, he had talked about himself all night long. And then he was like, oh, you know, we never mentioned you. How are you doing? And she was, you know, she's Jacqueline on Ashes. You'd think he'd be interested, right? And he wasn't. And that was it for him. You know, Jackie said, well, you know, you really can't expect much from men these days. You know, like, she. She was just, like, so over him and so done with him. That was the end of Warren Beatty.

[J. Randy Taraborrelli]

What year would that have been?

[Expert/Guest]

I believe that was in the 70s. So it was after. It was after Onassis and before Maurice Temple's men. Yeah.

[George Severis]

And so before we get to Onassis, which we should soon, it seems like maybe another slightly more serious relationship was David Ormsby Gore right before. Before slash, during.

[Expert/Guest]

Maybe Onassis. So forgot about him.

[George Severis]

Yeah, yeah. It seems like Jackie did as well at some point. So what was the story there? I mean, he was. He worked for. For jfk, right?

[Expert/Guest]

He did. He works for jfk. He was. You know, he worked. He was part of the cabinet. He was crazy about her. And, you know, he made the mistake of telling people that they were getting married. And they may have talked about it and, you know, in a sort of a shadowed way maybe one day. You know, you never know. But she was, you know, she was really lukewarm on him, but, you know, he was nice, and he was a connection to jfk, and so she sort of liked being around him. But, I mean, at one point, Lady Bird Johnson got a letter from somebody saying, did you know that Jackie is getting married to this guy? And I think that Lady Bird called Jackie, So congratulations. I understand that you're getting married. And she was like, what? You know, and that's kind of what ended that relationship. You know, I mean, I guess he just, like. He jumped the gun, and he was so excited about maybe, you know, I don't know what conversation they had that maybe that may have given him that impression, but it was definitely not the right impression.

[George Severis]

And then she pretty much got engaged to Onassis within a few months of this relationship ending, right?

[Expert/Guest]

Yeah. I mean, she was with Onassis within a few months of Jack Warnecke, and they were just a blip. Jack Warnicke was more an important figure. And after Warnicke was out of the picture, Onassis started coming around. And, you know, he was charming and Greek and interesting and charismatic, and he started giving her presents, and he wanted to be there for her. And, you know, weirdly enough, he had been at the White House after JFK's assassination, which. Which blew me away when I. When I learned about that and wrote about that, you know, who. What the heck was he doing there in the White House? Are you kidding me? In the days after the assassination, Onassis was at the White House, but he had been kind of had his sights on Jackie for a long time, and when she was completely available, he sort of made his move. And Onassis always got pretty much what he wanted. That was the way he lived his life. And the next thing you know, he's with Jackie, and, you know, to address.

[George Severis]

The elephant in the room, you know, Jackie, you know, she didn't want to be cheated on again. After jfk, she had this romance with Jack. Wernicke was more protective of herself. But then, of course, famously, Onassis was carrying out affairs during their time together. So what was that like?

[Expert/Guest]

Well, the difference is that Jackie wasn't in love with him. So it was hurtful, but it didn't hurt the same way as JFK did. And she also had the coping skills in place by that time to know how to deal with this. And she knew what she was getting into with Onassis in the sense that, you know, she knew about Maria Callas and they had a deal in place and it was a money deal. And I mean, it's not to say that he wasn't nice to her. And he was. And he. And you know, I think in Jackie, public, private, secret, you get a whole different picture of Onassis than you've ever gotten before. Because as he's becoming more debilitated and he's going back to Hammersmith and he's with her mom and you start to see a different side of Onassis than you've ever seen before. And Janet Auchincloss actually grows to love this guy, her son in law, who she hated at the beginning because she told him very specifically, you will not come between my daughters. And of course that's exactly what he did, you know, but wow. The one thing I've learned about people in my books about the Kennedys is that, you know, we go through changes. Changes we go through. Right. And just because you feel one way at one point doesn't mean that's not how you're always going to feel. And Janet and Hugh grew to really love Aristotle and asses. And so did Jackie, you know, and she was very protective of him when he was sick, right before he died and stuff is not black and white. You know, people ask me all the time, what was Jackie like? What was Jackie like? And I always say to them, when exactly are you talking about? Because she's not the same person in 1960 that she is in 1970. I knew Jackie in the 1980s. You know, Jackie was my first editor at Doubleday. And that's when I knew her. And when I'm sitting across from her in the 1980s, I could tell right then and there that she wasn't the same woman that she was as she was as first lady in 1960 during the tour of the White House. They look like two different people to me. You know, even the.

[J. Randy Taraborrelli]

I think about the pictures of her standing next to JFK and the pictures of her with Onassis, and it's like she looks so fashionable in a completely different way and looks so kind of carefree and it's just. It's very opposite.

[Expert/Guest]

Yeah, I was gonna say, you know, she'd never wanted to be America's widow. That was her whole thing. After JFK was dead, she told Teddy White, to whom she sort of crafted the Camelot mythology the night after Thanksgiving in 1963, when she called Teddy White to Hyannisport and spun this sort of mythology about Camelot that he then wrote about. And it became history, she told him. And it's funny, because I just looked at his notes the other day because I'm working on something about this. And she said, very specifically, and he wrote it in his own handwriting, I do not want to be the widow Kennedy. And she knew that she was all that America had left of jfk, but she just did not want that. And so I think that what you see when you see her with Onassis, and she's glamorous and carefree, and what you see is all of that having been lifted from her. And now she feels that she can live a life that she created that maybe people don't understand, but it's hers. She made it, and it's good. She was not miserable during the Onassis years, I can tell you that.

[George Severis]

Speaking of her sort of evolution throughout the years, one of the things I found interesting was her evolution in terms of her thoughts about the roles of men and women. Because when she's with jfk, you know, there's this. She always says, you know, Jack is always right. Like, he knows best. Like, you know, I defer to him. Then there was this middle period where she's sort of empowered enough to be, you know, quote unquote, dating around. And it feels like she's making decisions with her own future in mind and everything. And then, I mean, one of the things you talk about in the book, which I did not know before, was that she dated the director of, I think, Zorba the Greek.

[Expert/Guest]

Oh, yeah.

[George Severis]

Sort of after Onassis. And when she was considering going back to work and working as an editor, he didn't want her to work. But then she defied him, which is very different than her attitude when she was dating JFK when she was younger. So I guess if this is building to any question, it would be, you know, how do you conceive of her evolution in terms of, if anything, her personal politics or her, for lack of a better term, relationship to feminism?

[Expert/Guest]

Well, you know, she is really a symbol of growing feminism in America. At that time, I just thought it was so astonishing that in her oral history, you know, you hear her say, I would never have voted for someone that Jack didn't vote for. Like, that would just never occur to me. It never would occur to me. Jack knew what was best. I would only vote for who Jack would vote for. And that's not just Jackie that was women at that time. Women of that time and place would vote for whoever their husbands voted for. They didn't do their own research and make their own decisions about that. They voted for who their husbands voted for. But then, you know, Jackie was a product of the, you know, the 60s and then the 70s and feminism and then moving into the 80s. And just as women all over the country were growing, so was she. Until she got to a point when she was dating that particular man, whose name I do not remember. I wish. I mean, and I wrote about him. So maybe you guys can figure that out when you. When you.

[George Severis]

Yeah, Michael Cocolianis is his name.

[Expert/Guest]

Oh, yes. Okay. So when she started dating Michael, the problem with him was that he was very much like Onassis. You know, he was Greek. And that's what attracted her to him in the first place. But then she remembered that Onassis didn't want her to work either. And then this guy was telling her, well, you know, I don't think he should work. And she had this great job opportunity, and she said, well, I'm going to take it. And he said, no, I don't think women should work. And she said, see ya. Right. That wasn't who she was anymore. She wanted to work. She wanted to contribute. She didn't need the money. By this time, of course, Onassis was dead. She was very, very wealthy. She didn't need the money. She needed the work. She needed to be someone, and that's what she did.

[George Severis]

Well, I want to be conscious of your time, and also my Internet seems to be going in and out. So, Lyra, please feel free to take over if you have any final questions.

[J. Randy Taraborrelli]

Okay, yeah, well, I do have one. She made out with Robert Redford.

[Expert/Guest]

Yes, she did. Yes. I mean, I can't believe you remember that. She did. She made out with Robert Redford. But it was along the lines of, who wouldn't?

[J. Randy Taraborrelli]

That's why I have to bring it up.

[Expert/Guest]

Yeah, who wouldn't? I mean, but at that time in the 19 late 70s, Robert Redford was doing the Great Gatsby, and they were filming it at Hammersmith, which is where Jackie grew up, and they ran into each other. And if I recall from what I wrote, you know, they snuck off and they started making out like behind some rocks, like high school kids. And Jackie was like, he's Robert Redford. I mean, come on. And he was like, she's Jackie O. Are you kidding me? Right? And I love that story because it's very human, but that's as Far as it went, you know, there was nothing else. It was just that. And if it wasn't for the fact that it was Jackie and Robert Reftord, we wouldn't even care, you know? But, yeah, that did happen.

[J. Randy Taraborrelli]

Yeah. I'm very interested in your process of writing this book. Like, there's so many fully realized scenes, I would say, with intimate conversations. And just how do you get there? From research and interviews? What's your process?

[Expert/Guest]

Well, the way I get there is that I am unrelenting with my sources. With somebody like Jack Warnecke. I talked to him so many times, and I would call him, as I do Jamie Auchincloss, Jackie's half brother. And I would say, what is it that you said exactly? Like, I need to know exactly what happened. You know, people are used to telling stories in broad strokes. Well, then, you know, she came over, and then we went out, and then after about two hours, I brought her back home. I want to know about those two hours. Right. What exactly did you say? What did she say? And this drives my sources crazy. I just interviewed Marilyn Monroe's best friend and publicist, Pat Newcombe, for my JFK Public Private Secret book that just came out. And Pat Newcombe said something to me that really made me laugh. She said, I have to tell you, I don't spend a lot of time thinking about what my friends did 65 years ago. Right. But I told her, if your friend is Marilyn Monroe, I think maybe it's a little bit different. I think you can probably remember some of these moments, you know? And she did. And she did. And to answer your question, that's how I do it. You know, I reconstruct conversations based on what the people who are having the conversations told me they said and what they. What the responses were. To me, it's more interesting to do it that way than just have Jack Warnicke quoted as saying, I told Jackie this, then Jackie told me that, then I told Jackie this, and Jackie told me that. I actually want to be able to reconstruct that, to bring the reader into their world. And that's what I do.

[J. Randy Taraborrelli]

That's great. Thank you so much.

[Expert/Guest]

Yeah.

[George Severis]

Thank you so much. This was really great. And again, the book we read is Jackie Public, Private Secret. But the new one that is coming out that I think will be out by the time this episode airs is JFK Public, Private, Secret.

[Expert/Guest]

Yes. Thank you, guys. I really appreciate it. I had a good time talking to you.

[George Severis]

Thanks so much.

[J. Randy Taraborrelli]

So that's it for this week's episode.

[George Severis]

Next week we're talking about the Internet's on and off boyfriend, Jack Schlossberg.

[J. Randy Taraborrelli]

So subscribe and follow United States of Kennedy for all things Kennedy every week.

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[Podcast Host]

Every case that is a cold case that has DNA right now in a backlog will be identified in our lifetime on the new podcast America's Crime Lab. Every case has a story to tell and the DNA holds the truth.

[Expert/Guest]

He never thought he was going to get caught and I just looked at my computer screen, I was just like, ah, gotcha. This technology's already solving so many cases.

[Podcast Host]

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[John Lithgow]

Hello, I'm John Lithgow.

[George Severis]

We choose to go to the moon.

[John Lithgow]

I want to tell you about my new fiction podcast.

[Expert/Guest]

That's one small step for man about.

[John Lithgow]

Buzz Aldrin, one of the true pioneers of space.

[Expert/Guest]

You're a great pilot, Buzz.

[John Lithgow]

That's the story you think you know. This is the story you don't. Buzz starring me, John Lithgow on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Narrator]

What would you do if one bad decision forced you to choose between a maximum security prison or the most brutal boot camp designed to be hell on earth? Unfortunately for Mark Lombardo, this was the choice he faced.

[Expert/Guest]

He said, you are a number. A New York State number and we own you.

[Narrator]

Listen to Shock incarceration on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Podcast Host]

This is an iHeart podcast.