‘Love Story: JFK Jr. & Carolyn Bessette’: Part Two

Summary

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United States of Kennedy: ‘Love Story: JFK Jr. & Carolyn Bessette’, Part Two

Podcast: United States of Kennedy
Hosts: George Civeris & Julia Claire
Original Air Date: March 16, 2026
Episode Theme:
Examining the cultural impact, criticism, and complicated legacy of the FX series “Love Story: JFK Jr. & Carolyn Bessette”—how the show became a hit, why it resonates especially with Gen Z, and the ethics of dramatizing real lives, especially when those lives belong to icons of the Kennedy orbit.

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Overview

In this episode, George and Julia return to the most popular Kennedy-related media in recent memory: Ryan Murphy’s FX series “Love Story: JFK Jr. & Carolyn Bessette.” They review why the show is topping charts (and TikTok), share their mixed personal reactions, dissect the critical and generational response, and delve into the controversies—including Daryl Hannah’s pointed response to her on-screen portrayal. They also analyze why the nostalgia for 90s New York and the Kennedy myth remain so potent, before discussing what the show's popularity says about our ongoing cultural dance with the Kennedy dynasty.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Cultural Fervor Around “Love Story”

[04:49–06:43]

• The show has broken into the mainstream, becoming FX’s most-streamed limited series and a viral hit on TikTok.
• Julia: “It’s nostalgia without any of the baggage of nostalgia... It has nothing to do with politics. No one can name any specific opinion either of them had. It’s just sort of like, wouldn’t it be great if things were fabulous?” [06:43]
• The appeal is pure “harmless nostalgia,” unburdened by politics or real knowledge—just a fantasy of glamour and possibility.

2. Mixed Critical & Personal Reception

[07:13–15:07]

Compliment Sandwiches

• Julia praises the show’s aesthetics and soundtrack but finds it increasingly boring:
  “I'm a little bored, which I didn't think that I would be...these are two intensely interesting, glamorous people.” [08:45]
• George calls it “perfect second screen viewing,” ideal for multitasking:
  “It is so easy for me to watch it while adding to our little Google Doc, while answering an email...any time I take a phone break, I’m really not missing much.” [12:19]
• Both agree Sarah Pidgeon’s portrayal of Carolyn is a highlight, with Paul Anthony Kelly (JFK Jr.) getting better but still overshadowed.
  • Julia: “Sarah Pidgeon is still acting circles around him...she is...one of the biggest breakouts of television in the last, like, 10 years.” [14:15]
  • Suggestion: The show would have been stronger as “The Carolyn Bessette Story.” [14:52]

Narrative Issues

• The dialogue often feels wooden and Wikipedia-like:
  “Everything sounds like it's reading off a Wikipedia.” (Julia, [09:34])
• George: “It’s...like, what if we took a Wikipedia page and narrativized it?” [10:45]

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3. The Flatness of Fictional Characterization

[21:21–23:47]

• Julia laments the lack of JFK Jr.’s real charisma:
  “There is like a dullness about this depiction...this guy was—you couldn’t take your eyes off him.” [21:21]
• George notes scenes that should showcase JFK Jr.'s magnetism (like George magazine’s launch) fall flat:
  “Everything is taken so literally that it seems out of place for him to suddenly have a sense of humor about it.” [22:27]

---

4. Why Gen Z Loves the Show: The Allure of 90s Nostalgia

[23:47–32:06]

• TikTok is full of young women channeling Carolyn’s effortless style—a phenomenon observed by journalist Heidi Moore:
  “The blondes on TikTok are really feeling their oats about imitating Carolyn Bessette Kennedy right now...The have not been this excited for a personality transplant since Carrie Bradshaw.” (Heidi Moore, quoted by George, [23:47])
• Julia and George break down why copying Carolyn misses the point:
  “The whole thing of imitating Carolyn Bessette’s personal style is that she was someone with really strong, innate personal style...Copying her misses the whole point.” (Julia, [24:49])

Nostalgia for a Simpler, Pre-Tech Era

• Glynis McNichol is cited as identifying 90s New York as a pre-digital-era “calm before the storm”—it’s not just about the fashion, but about the sense of privacy, freedom from constant technological surveillance, and tactile daily rituals now gone.
• George: “There was some scarcity in the images from it...the constant image production and myth making cheapens [things].” [29:52]

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5. Criticism of the Show’s Historical & Ethical Choices

[40:46–50:15]

The Daryl Hannah Controversy

• Daryl Hannah, who had a five-year relationship with JFK Jr., was portrayed as “an airhead...and really a cokehead” (Julia, [40:50]) and as the villainous obstacle to John and Carolyn.
• Hannah’s NYT op-ed “How Can Love Story Get Away with This?” is dissected:
  • Key Quote: “A real living person is not a narrative device. There is also a gendered dimension... Popular culture has long elevated certain women by portraying others as rivals, obstacles or villains. Isn't it textbook misogyny to tear down one woman in order to build up another?” (Hannah, read by Julia, [45:04])
  • She points out the cognitive dissonance of being both a living person and a convenient story trope, made worse by online harassment fueled by the show’s version of her.
• George acknowledges the dilemma: “Do I think the show has the right to fictionalize however they want? Essentially yes...But...it is a very important addendum that, like, I’m happy, as unhappy as out there.” [46:41]

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6. Media Ethics & the “Paparazzi by Other Means” Critique

[50:18–56:29]

• Julia & George discuss Megan Garber’s Atlantic piece, “Love Story Is a Horror Story,” which argues that:
  • The show is itself a new kind of media intrusion:
    “But Love Story offers its condemnations without seeming to wonder whether a work of semi-fiction...is a paparazzo by other means.” [52:27]
  • True crime and hagiography blend—the show deifies Carolyn while exploiting her, reflecting the genres’ “intense moralizing.”
• Julia: “It doesn’t go far enough in...reckoning with [tabloid misogyny] and again just kind of exploits Carolyn in a different way. The paparazzi made her out to be a coked-up bitch and this show is kind of deifying her in a certain way.” [54:55]

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7. The Fading Currency of the Kennedy Name

[55:21–59:41]

• Garber positions “Love Story” as appearing in a moment when the Kennedys’ cultural authority is long gone:
  • “Camelot, always a fantasy, looks ever more like delusion.” (Megan Garber, summarized by Julia, [55:21])
• George points out that Gen Z’s excitement over “Love Story” reveals the myth’s flexibility—young people see only glamorous photos, not the Kennedy baggage older generations do.
• Real Kennedys in the news (recent flop runs by RFK Jr. and Jack Schlossberg) only underscore the contrast with their 90s predecessors’ mythic status.

---

8. Concluding Thoughts and What’s Next

[59:58–61:53]

• Both hosts agree the show is enjoyable, if not intellectually demanding—great as “background TV.”
• Julia: “I don’t regret watching it. I don’t feel like it’s been wasted time. Like, I’ve watched so many things...that I’m like, God, I wish I had spent my time doing literally anything else. And this isn’t one of them.” [59:58]
• They preview the next episode on Eunice Kennedy, expressing a hope for more nuanced historical biopics about lesser-known, substantial women in the dynasty:
  Julia: “Make a biopic about Eunice next time.” [61:38] George: “No one would watch it because it’s about an actual smart and empowered woman.” [61:40]

---

Notable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• On nostalgia:
  “Wouldn’t it be amazing if we were smoking Parliaments and none of us had cell phones and you could just wear an Aran knit sweater and beat up your boyfriend in battery.”
  — Julia Claire [07:01]

• On second-screen TV:
  “This show is perfect second screen viewing...anytime I take a phone break, I’m really not missing much.”
  — George Severis [12:19]

• On Carolyn Bessette as a romanticized icon:
  “She’s dead young and beautiful, and she will be young and beautiful forever...we don’t really know any of her true beliefs. She’s perfect.”
  — Julia Claire [55:21]

• On the irony of the show’s take on privacy:
  “It offers its condemnations [of media intrusion] without seeming to wonder whether a work of semi-fiction, a full-scale imagining of two people’s lives, is a paparazzo by other means.”
  — Megan Garber (Atlantic), paraphrased by Julia Claire [52:27]

• On Daryl Hannah’s response:
  “A real living person is not a narrative device...Isn't it textbook misogyny to tear down one woman in order to build up another?”
  — Daryl Hannah (NYT op-ed, read by Julia Claire) [45:04]

• On the ongoing power of the Kennedy mythology:
  “Every time I try to assess whether, you know, the Kennedy, the power of the Kennedy name is on its way out, something like this happens where I’m like, wow, so this is the number one show in the country and Jack Schlossberg is leading the polls in his congressional race.”
  — George Severis [59:36]

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Important Segments & Timestamps

• [05:04–07:13] — Introduction to the “Love Story” phenomenon and nostalgia factor
• [07:53–15:07] — Breakdown of the show’s strengths, weaknesses, and acting performances
• [23:47–32:06] — Exploration of Gen Z’s embrace of 90s style and analog life
• [40:49–50:15] — Daryl Hannah’s public pushback and the ethics of dramatizing living people
• [50:18–56:29] — The show's “paparazzi by other means” critique and cultural reckoning with '90s misogyny/media
• [55:21–59:41] — Reflection on the Kennedy myth’s persistent draw and real-world contrast

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Tone & Takeaways

The episode is witty, sharp, and at times self-deprecating—hosts George and Julia balance their cultural criticism with humor (“He’s nostalgic for measles” about RFK Jr. [59:41]) and personal anecdotes (Julia’s desire to “go blonde and blast cigs” [11:02]). The analysis is as much about the mediated nature of nostalgia as about the Kennedys themselves. They’re skeptical of easy mythologies, aware of generational blindspots, and sympathetic to both the seductions and distortions of pop-history storytelling.

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In sum:
If you haven’t watched “Love Story: JFK Jr. & Carolyn Bessette,” you’ll come away understanding why it’s a hit, what makes the Kennedy myth so enduring (and problematic), and why reimagining real lives for dramatic purposes is always a tricky, loaded act—especially when the stakes are nostalgia, gender, and the memory of an American dynasty.

Transcript

[Julia Claire]

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[Danielle Fishel]

is sponsored by Nurture Life. Hey, it's Danielle Fishel from Pod Meats World. And as a mom to two growing boys, I know how chaotic meal time can get. No matter how confident I am with what I'm serving them, my kids will always find a way to call the meal gross or stinky or yuck. It's true, they can be wildly picky about new foods, and with my busy schedule, I don't have the time to become America's next Top Chef. And so that's why I love Nurture Life. It's a meal delivery service that actually caters to kids. Ideal for ages 8 months to 8 years, fully cooked and ready to serve in just one minute. It's the problem solver I've been praying for. It's the top meal delivery service for babies, toddlers and kids. And everything is designed by registered dietitians so you can sleep safe knowing your kids are getting the protein, veggies and nutrients they need while still eating favorites like Mac and cheese, spaghetti and meatballs, and so much more. Plus, it's allergy friendly, which we know is clutch. And when it comes to options, Nurture Life has you covered. There's more than 50 nutritious meals and snacks on their menu, from soft finger foods for babies and toddlers to balanced kids meals for when they get Nurture Life does the cooking, they deliver it straight to your door, and then you might even have time to eat something for yourself. So now is the time to head to nurturelife.com pod and use code pod for 50% off your first order plus free shipping. That's right, 50% off plus free shipping. Once again, that's nurturelife.com pod and make sure you use promo Code Podcast. Even if you aren't a parent with young kids, you might have parent friends who struggle with mealtime. Make sure to share our Code Pod with them. Remember, put your little ones first with healthy meals from Nurture Life. That website one more time is nurturelife.com

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[George Severis]

I'm George Severis.

[Julia Claire]

And I'm Julia Claire and this is

[George Severis]

United States of Canada Kennedy, a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. Every week we go into one aspect of the Kennedy story and today we are checking back in with the FX series Love Story, JFK Jr. And Carolyn Bessette.

[Julia Claire]

We discussed the first three episodes a few weeks ago, but since then the series has quickly transcended the Kennedy universe and become the single most streamed limited series on FX as well as TikTok's favorite TV show. A dubious honor.

[George Severis]

That's right. A heated rivalry. I am sorry, but your time in the spotlight is over. We're now all wearing simple slip dresses and smoking parliaments while running from the paparazzi.

[Julia Claire]

Absolutely. And along with all the praise, there has also been some criticism of the way certain storylines and characters are portrayed.

[George Severis]

So we just wanted to take an episode to discuss the general response and backlash to the show, share our own perfect opinions about it, and just sort of check in with the Kennedy story that against all odds, has been the most popular among the general population. In an era where, you know, a Kennedy is literally destroying the Department of Health.

[Julia Claire]

Right.

[George Severis]

Another Kennedy is running for Congress in New York City. None of that has gotten lips a flappin like the Ryan Murphy series Love Story, JFK Jr. And Carolyn Bessette.

[Julia Claire]

And you know what I feel like? I know why I feel like. And this is not a novel insight, but, you know, sometimes, like, brief situationships can be even more devastating than the breakup of, like, many years. Yes, that's what this feels like. It's like JFK Jr. All he was was potential and Carolyn Bessette as well. They were both so Young and also 90s. New York has never looked so good.

[George Severis]

It's like harmless nostalgia. Exactly, because it is nostalgia without any of the baggage of nostalgia. What are you even nostalgic for when you're nostalgic for photos of JFK Jr. And Carolyn Bissette? It has nothing to do with politics. No one can name any specific opinion either of them had. It's just sort of like, wouldn't it be great if things were fabulous?

[Julia Claire]

Wouldn't it be amazing if we were smoking Parliaments and none of us had cell phones and you could just wear an Aran knit sweater and beat up your boyfriend in battery.

[George Severis]

That's right. So I guess we should start with. Before we get into. Wade into the discourse, you know, on social media and the pages of the New York Times and elsewhere, we should talk about our own responses to the show. We were sort of both tepidly positive about it after the first three episodes. We recognized that it was completely fictionalized and, you know, kind of bought into the Kennedy mythology in an entertaining and not completely, you know, horrible way. And we were able to kind of turn our brains off just enough to kind of enjoy it for what it is now. We are, I want to say, four or five episodes later, where. Where do you Stand.

[Julia Claire]

I have really kind of mixed ambivalent feelings about the show. I'll give it a compliment sandwich, which is. It looks incredible, which I said last time. Again, 90s New York has never looked so good. The soundtrack, I want all of it on a playlist. It is like, truly the greatest hits of the 90s. I was listening to a lot of it. I went up to Santa Barbara a few weeks ago. I was in la, and then I went to Santa Barbara and I was, like, listening to, like, damn, I Wish I Was yous Lover on the drive up.

[George Severis]

I mean, Linger by the Cranberries.

[Julia Claire]

I mean, come on. And also, like, some great Madonna songs, like, just.

[George Severis]

And unexpected ones too. Whoever is in charge of the soundtrack, I mean, truly had. Because they really are. It's so great at setting a vibe. I mean, the show is ultimately a mood board.

[Julia Claire]

It's a mood board. And whoever's in charge of selecting the songs, I want to give you a smooch. You're so good. You did everything right. And so I love how it looks. I mean, it's beautifully shot, which you simply cannot say for all FX series. The colors are really rich. Everyone looks great. I'm a little bored. I'm a little bored, which I didn't think that I would be. And I was there when we first talked about it a few weeks ago. I was like, there were some points at which I was a little bored. Now I'm just like. I don't know. I'm really. It's dragging for me a little bit again, which is crazy because these are two intensely interesting, glamorous people.

[George Severis]

Well, they're certainly glamorous, intensely interesting. I think the jury might be out.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah, maybe you're right. Maybe I'm giving. Maybe I'm giving them two. I do think Carolyn Bissett is really interesting, and she clearly was, like, a super magnetic person. I do believe that she was way more interesting than, oh, completely. Even the show is able to portray. I don't know. I feel my big criticism from last time was that JFK Jr. Was written and acted as two. Aw, shucks. And kind of. This again. I just felt like the writers kind of portrayed him in this, like, very weird, obsequious way. And I do feel that we are given a little bit more oomph in the next few episodes. Like, he's a little bit more charismatic. He's a little bit more charming and. But overall, I don't know. And I really hate the dialogue between, like, he. Between JFK Jr. And Caroline Kennedy. It's all. So like kind of what we talked about last time, like, so self conscious and like everything sounds like it's reading off a Wikipedia. Yes.

[George Severis]

It's kind of like, what if we took a Wikipedia page and narrativized it? Like, okay, so your task in this scene is to mention that there was this cover of the National Enquirer and you can dramatize it, you know, you can kind of make it your own. But that is the point of the scene. Yeah, it is very like history, history report.

[Julia Claire]

Yes. But I'm still like, overall having fun and I do still want to go blonde and blast cigs. So I think in that way the show is doing its job.

[George Severis]

All right, so that's your compliment sandwich.

[Julia Claire]

That's right. How are you feeling?

[George Severis]

I mean, this is such a completely backhanded compliment that I would almost call it an insult. But you know, we've been reading a lot these days about second screen television shows. You know, there was that article about how Netflix movies are made such that the plot has to be repeated a few times. Like the stakes have to be repeated a few times throughout the movie because they specifically are making content for people that are watching television while also on their phone. There was also part of it. Oh my God. Or maybe it was a different article about how in action movies, the biggest action sequence has to happen in the first like five or ten minutes because you need to keep people interested. Whereas it used to be that you saved your best action sequence for the finale. Anyway, point being, I think as much as a lover of art and a viewer film, I do not want us to go towards a second screen reality. I have to say this show is perfect second screen viewing. And I find myself especially because, you know, we are watching it for work often. It is so easy for me to watch it while adding to our little Google Doc, while answering an email about how we're rescheduling a recording while kind of like seeing something that's happening on screen and then Google Googling it to fact check it in real time. And I find that anytime I take a phone break, I'm really not missing much.

[Julia Claire]

Right.

[George Severis]

And again, you know, am I. Is that the praise I would give to, you know, the Sopranos or Sex and the City or like an amazing iconic show? No, but that is how I'm currently living my life. I am doing emails while watching. And let me tell you something, it's working. I am sending emails left and right. So I think that if there, if I can turn this into a compliment, it's that like, if we are already living in a world where all television is kind of bloated and made to be watched as a second screen, this is kind of the best version of that. Like, I think it is. It is perfectly kind of middle brow and, you know, goes down easy. You know, your heart isn't beating the whole time. I agree with you that it's a bit of a slog. I certainly don't think it needs to be eight hour long episodes. But if you accept that that's what it is, which I have, I'm sort of, you know, enjoying it minute to minute. I really am still very impressed with Sarah Pidgeon.

[Julia Claire]

Same. And also, I should say I think I was a little hard.

[George Severis]

He's getting better as it goes.

[Julia Claire]

I think so. I was gonna say I was a little hard on Paul Anthony Kelly. And I do think that he is getting better and better and I think his acting is better with every episode. And Paul Anthony Kelly, if you're listening, I'm so. And I was wrong.

[George Severis]

Yes. And he is listening and he was crying last. Last time we talked about him. And now he's smiling ear to ear.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah.

[George Severis]

He's saying, I have not received this level of praise on my acting in a while.

[Julia Claire]

And baby boy, your hair looks so good. Your hair looks so good.

[George Severis]

His hair looks great. I do think, unfortunately, as much as he is getting better, I agree Sarah Pigeon is still acting circles around him in a way that only brings into relief how kind of not as good he is, which is just unfortunate for him. And it's not his fault that his acting partner is actually sort of one of the biggest breakouts of television in the last, like 10 years.

[Julia Claire]

It's really incredible. Yeah, she is. This is something that we said on the last episode that I really wish. I do almost wish this instead of being Love Story had just been the Carolyn Bessette story, which it technically is

[George Severis]

based on a biography of her.

[Julia Claire]

Yes. So I really think the show just would have made a lot more sense and would have been even better if it had been the Carolyn Bissette story and like everyone else was just kind of a side character.

[George Severis]

And I actually think a lot of the best parts of the show are when a side character is introduced and, you know, they get a few scenes and you, like, get it and then we move on. I think they did that perfectly with F.L. kennedy. I think they did that perfectly with Carolyn's mom. But then when they try to draw out, for example, Caroline Kennedy, they try to draw her out into this bigger part of the story. But there's not enough there, in my opinion, for her to be such a recurring character. I kind of think, as you're saying, if it is the Carolyn story and she is sort of like the Carrie Bradshaw, and she interacts with all these kind of, like, kooky individuals, and there's the fashion people, there's the Kennedy people, there's her own family, the people from back home. I think it could be fun, but I think some of the characters aren't fleshed out enough to warrant being, you know, series regulars or sort of, like, recurring guest stars. But again, I'm kind of like, I'm at a place where I'm very comfortable accepting it for what it is. Like, I'm not watching it and being angry about it. I'm kind of like, this is what it is. It's relaxing. It's comforting. You do sort of. If you allow yourself to, like, get into it, you do sort of feel that, wow, what a love story. They're. You know, they have each other, even though everyone else is against them. Something. I know that we just said we wanted less JFK Jr. But if we're gonna have this much JFK Jr. Something that would be fun to me is to see a little more of the inner workings of George magazine. I feel like it's a bit surface level. And as someone who is craving that 90s New York nostalgia, so much of that is the power that print media used to have. And to me, one of the interesting things about him starting George magazine is that he had such a. Such an antagonistic relationship with the press that it is very interesting that he himself would start any form of journalism outlet. Like. And so the tension there is very interesting to me. And instead, we're just getting sort of like, okay, like, Carolyn helped with choosing Cindy Crawford as the COVID star.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah. We'll be back with more United States of Kennedy after this break.

[Danielle Fishel]

This podcast is sponsored by Nurture Life. Hey, it's Danielle Fishel from Pod Meets World. And as a mom to two growing boys, I know how chaotic mealtime can get. No matter how confident I am with what I'm serving them, my kids will always find a way to call the meal gross or stinky or yuck. It's true. They can be wildly picky about new foods. And with my busy schedule, I don't have the time to become America's next Top Chef. And so that's why I love Nurture Life. It's a meal delivery service that actually caters to kids ideal for ages 8 and months to 8 years, fully cooked and ready to serve in just one minute. It's the problem solver I've been praying for. It's the top meal delivery service for babies, toddlers and kids. And everything is designed by registered dietitians so you can sleep safe knowing your kids are getting the protein, veggies and nutrients they need while still eating favorites like Mac and cheese, spaghetti and meatballs and so much more. Plus, it's allergy friendly, which we know is clutch. And when it comes to options, Nurture Life has you covered. There's more than 50 nutritious meals and snacks on their menu. From soft finger foods for babies and toddlers to balanced kids meals for when they get older. Nurture Life does the cooking. They deliver it straight to your door. And then you might even have time to eat something for yourself. So now is the time to head to nurturelife.com pod and use code pod for 50% off your first order plus free shipping. That's right, 50% off plus free shipping. Once again, that's nurturelife.com pod and make sure you use promo code pod. Even if you aren't a parent with young kids, you might have parent friends who struggle with mealtime. Make sure to share our Code Pod with them. Remember, put your little ones first with healthy meals from Nurture Life. That website one more time is nurturelife.com

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[Julia Claire]

And we're back with more United States of Kennedy. I think to echo something that I said on the last episode about Love Story is that there is like a flatness to the characters and we just know that the real life characters were so alive that it almost feels criminal to portray them as such. I don't know. Like, again, I don't feel that JFK Jr. Is written with the kind of like animal magnetism that he clearly had. And I don't know how you, like, I'm not a narrative fiction TV writer, so I like, I've never done that level of like character development for episodic television. I don't know what is entailed in that, but I just know that there is like a dullness about this depiction of JFK Jr that I'm just like, well, I don't know. I've gone back and watched some interviews with the real JFK Jr. And his little guest starring appearance on Murphy Brown. And like this guy was. You couldn't take your eyes off him.

[George Severis]

Yeah, I think that really, I think the lack of that charisma really comes through when you see him doing the press conference for the launch of George magazine. Because it's so clear that what that scene should be about is how he is controlling the press. Not controlling the press narrative, but how he's sort of like playing it like a fiddle. Like he's allegedly so good in front of the camera that he's like joking around with the press at the launch and sort of referencing the controversies about him. But in this show, everything is the threat of the paparazzi, and everything is taken so literally that it doesn't. That it seems out of place for him to suddenly have a sense of humor about it.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah, there's, like, a real incongruity with the way he's written throughout the show as well. It's just like, clearly they keep jumping back and forth between, like, real life and the fictionalized version, and it creates for this, like, awkwardness and a lack of continuity. But. But I'm really not surprised that people are loving this show. And George and I read a few different pieces of criticism from the Atlantic in the Times, and also Daryl Hannah's op ed about the show in the Times. But basically, it makes a lot of sense that, like, particularly Gen Z loves this show.

[George Severis]

That's right. I have a tweet here from the journalist Heidi Moore. It says the blondes on TikTok are really feeling their oats about imitating Carolyn Bassett Kennedy right now. The have not been this excited for a personality transplant since Carrie Bradshaw. I would say a bit. A bit rude to blonde women on TikTok.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah.

[George Severis]

But if you take out the. If you take out the real condescension, I would say it is true that blonde women on TikTok are really embracing the Carolyn Bessette Kennedy look and ethos. I think it is inherently so funny to see people try to emulate something that is meant to be effortless and innate. I don't know. It's like trying to be Julia Roberts or something. It's like the whole point of Julia Roberts is that she just smiles and everyone thinks, like, it's innate and she's born with it. And yes, obviously, it's calculated to some extent. I'm not saying she's all shocked. She knows she's a movie star, but you can't suddenly wake up and decide, I'm gonna be Julia Roberts.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah, it's like. Well, the whole thing of imitating Carolyn Bissette's personal style is that she was someone really strong. Innate personal style and an innate sense of what she liked and disliked. So copying her misses the whole point.

[George Severis]

And even if she didn't have the innate style, she also was a. An actual fashion professional. Like, this isn't. This isn't an it girl. That's like, someone they discovered. I mean, they did, in fact, discover her at a mall, if we're being real. But. But she is. She also was up with the trends, working with literal Calvin Klein, like, thinking on her. You Know, she's borrowing certain things that she saw. She's making them her own. You know, it's a little different to just sort of be inundated with content and think that wearing, you know, vintage Levi's jeans and a white. And a white oxford is gonna. Is gonna get you there.

[Julia Claire]

Right. And so one of the pieces, the essays that we read was former guests, former friend of the show.

[George Severis]

Yes, forever friend of the show. Glynis McNichol, who has really been banging the drum on Carolyn Bessette Kennedy for over a decade when we had her on. She has written about Carolyn a few times, but her first piece about her, I think, was in, like, 2016 in town and Country. And it was about sort of like Carolyn Bessette as a fashion icon before, you know, people on TikTok were talking about her. And she, you know, took this opportunity to write about Carolyn Bissett as a historical figure in the Times opinion pages. And we both really liked it.

[Julia Claire]

I loved it. And she kind of gets at what I think a lot of the zoomers are loving about this show, which is, as we said, 90s New York just, like, looks absolutely incredible. There is not a cell phone in sight. It's just everything is so tactile and real. I think this is a big credit to the show as well, and the world building with the sets and the clothes. And after, as we said, after the initial controversy, they got all of these archival pieces from the 90s, and everything just looks and feels more expensive. And like.

[George Severis]

Yeah, I mean, she made the point, which I hadn't considered, that, like, there was this sort of calm before the storm feeling, I guess, is the argument she's trying to make in the 90s, pre 9 11. But also it was before technology took over everything and we started living in this kind of environment of semi mass surveillance. Even when it's not top down, it's. It's just all around you. It's like everyone is on their phone. Anything can be photographed or videotaped at any given moment. If you are, let's say, you know, a cool it girl or it boy going out, you know, you have to be aware that at any given point, you know, your. Your actions could be tracked, whatever. And there is something about the. Almost like the metaphor of when Carolyn starts dating a Kennedy, she is suddenly hounded by literal, like, surveillance technology in the form of the paparazzi. That's almost like it, I think. I think Glynis sort of makes the very delicate metaphor that it's like it symbolizes how all of us stopped having privacy after. After that era. It was. It's like the golden era of, you know, what we think of as, like, sex in the city. New York just sort of ended in kind of, like, post 9, 11, post iPhone world.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah. And there was also just like, a really satisfying friction to watching her go about. Watching this Carolyn Bissette, like, go about her day. Glennis talks about how she, like, uses cash at the newsstand and buys a Vogue and a pack of cigarettes or whatever. And, like, so much of that, that, again, the tactile friction of our day is gone. And I. I do think, also, like, one of the. This goes into why. Why the zoomers are loving it, because there is, like, one of the big trends right now, as it were, is going analog and, like, analog hobbies and old clock radios and, like, all of these kind of vestiges of the. Of the 90s and early 2000s are kind of becoming trendy. And it does just, like, life looks a lot simpler back then. Even, like, even for someone who was, like, dating a Kennedy and life. Her life was very complicated. Like, there's just a really nostalgic simplicity about it that I think a lot of us crave.

[George Severis]

I think that's the before and after Kennedy of it all is like, her life was actually more glamorous pre Kennedy because she was able to just, like, the city was her oyster. It's like a kid that just got out for recess. Like, it's just. She's so ready to drink it all in. And then suddenly there's this oppressive, you know, the Kennedy world sort of closes in on her. I mean, I realize I'm talking in broad strokes and this is a fictionalized account, but for the sake of argument, it's like she. The freedom quote unquote, that she had, that is what made her cool and sexy, is gone. And then suddenly, post wedding, she's basically like, as Glynis says, the Rapunzel of Tribeca. She's just, like, locked in the apartment, and any freedom and effortlessness to her life is sort of gone. I mean, I had thought about the nostalgia for the 90s in terms of the aesthetics, in terms of, you know, the big names that we all recognize, like Calvin Klein and Kate Moss and whatever. But it is just on a more specific level, actually about just lack of technology. Like, it really is often as simple as that. Like, that is what made that era so kind of ethereal and mysterious is actually that it wasn't documented. I mean, it was documented a little bit. It was Documented in the pages of tabloids and magazines and stuff. But there was some scarcity in the images from it. Like, you actually had to look for them. You had to. The constant image image production and myth making cheapens something like that just is how it is.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah. And I think there's something too, about being, like, unobserved. Not, you know, the way in which Carolyn was not only before she kind of got with JFK Jr. But also in the way that, like, all of us were able to be kind of like anonymous and unobserved before the advent of smartphones.

[George Severis]

Yeah.

[Julia Claire]

Like now everything. I mean, it's like such a hack observation, but, like, obviously everything is documented, everything is photographed, everything is made for consumption and viewing. And so it makes, like, all the sense in the world that there would be this nostalgia for a time in which we weren't, like, when you could just go about your day and we weren't always performing for one another.

[George Severis]

Yeah. Before we move on to Daryl Hannah, which I know we want to talk about, I do want to shout out one kind of funny coincidence that Glynis points out, which is, you know, the comparisons between Carolyn Bessette and Carrie Bradshaw we've now mentioned a few times, they're pretty tenuous, but it's just like they're both like cool, thin, blonde women that. That, you know, have made New York their oyster. But she says in the piece this is Glynis, Sex and the City, which premiered in June 1998, gave us a very glossed up version of this New York and a language for Ms. Bessette's single life. That's no surprise. Candace Bushnell was navigating the city around the same time in her New York observer column. She once wrote a piece about her own dalliance with Michael Bergen. The same one time Calvin Klein underwear model. Ms. Bessette dated. This so perfectly encapsulates honestly what I imagine with rose colored glasses. This kind of downtown New York was like. Like, of course, Carolyn Bessette hooked up with the same kind of like, B list Calvin Klein underwear model that Candace Bushnell literally wrote in the Sex in the City column. If you click that link, it is in the Sex in the City column. And as we said last episode, it's very funny that that guy now is fully a realtor in Los Angeles.

[Julia Claire]

The paragraph that immediately follows that is the one that I wanted to point out, which was kind of myth busting about how ros. This picture of 90s New York was. She said the city was rife with racial tensions. And violence. And the suggestion that people felt optimistic about the future is misplaced. Just as artificial intelligence has many of us anticipating a coming tech apocalypse. The city and the world at that time were gripped with a very real fear of Y2K, which is so funny to think about now because, you know, George and I are famously young, but it is funny to think about, I don't know, Y2K like, this idea of Y2K.

[George Severis]

I guess I was. We are, you know, to come out old enough to be aware, to remember the Y2K fear, but I guess not old enough to have realized that it was serious. I was kind of like. I thought it was a joke.

[Julia Claire]

I thought it was, like, in the ether. I don't know, it was, like, in the background. I just didn't think it was, like, serious.

[George Severis]

I think Glynis sort of toes the line gracefully and well, between kind of like buying into the rosiness of the nostalgia and also. And also critiquing it. But we should say she does make the 911 metaphor very clear at the end. She Sundays. She says Ms. Beset Kennedy's life, like so many others in the Kennedy family, would end tragically when a plane piloted by Mr. Kennedy and flying her and her sister Lauren crashed off Martha's Vineyard. This era of New York would also end tragically when planes were flown into the World Trade center on September 11, 2001. So there is just something about the end of an era, so to speak. Oh, the other thing I wanted to mention quickly is just to go back to George magazine for a second, because I had made a note of this. One thing that we learned in our George magazine episode, which is in the Rolling Stone article that we read for it, is that when the Cindy Crawford George magazine cover happened, the options they actually had photographed her with the fake bulge as George Washington. So they had, like, stuffed a sock in her. Oh. Like on. Around her crotch to make it look like she had a big bulge. And then if I remember correctly, JFK Jr. Is the one that saw the photos, said, this is vulgar. Let's airbrush it so that it's smooth. It was either. I think it was that it might have been the opposite, that he was advocating for it. And someone else said, no, but. But that was. I was kind of surprised that that wasn't dramatized, because that seems exactly like the kind of thing Ryan Murphy would think is so funny and, you know, irreverent, because there is, in fact, a part of the show where he's flipping through options for that exact cover, which for anyone who hasn't seen it, is Cindy Crawford dressed as George Washington. So I did want to kind of shout that out because sometimes truth is like funnier than fiction. Like, you're sort of like, that is a funny, that's a true, funny scene. And there you could really see JFK Jr. S personality.

[Julia Claire]

We're going to take a short break. Stay with us.

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[Julia Claire]

And we're back with more United States of Kennedy.

[George Severis]

All right, let's talk about Daryl Hannah.

[Julia Claire]

Okay, so on the last episode where we discussed the first few episodes of Love Story, we talked about how dirty they did Daryl Hannah in this portrayal of her. They make her like just such an airhead, a ditzy blonde and really a cokehead.

[George Severis]

She's having like all these coke fueled parties.

[Julia Claire]

She's being really inappropriate and Jackie hates her. And it was just. It really sets her up to be the villain and the obstacle for JFK Jr. And Carolyn to overcome. And definitely not reflective of the like five year relationship that these two people had, which I think is like, yeah, the same amount of time as Carolyn and JFK Jr. Were together.

[George Severis]

I mean, it's especially ironic because allegedly part of the mo of both the book, but this show is based on and the show is to kind of reclaim Carolyn's legacy because she was seen as such a kind of money hungry, cold ice queen when she was alive. And it is interesting that in the process of doing that, they are sort of throwing a different woman under the bus who is very much alive and able to watch this portrayal of herself.

[Julia Claire]

So Daryl Hannah wrote an op ed for the Times called How Can Love Story Get Away with this? And I think it opens with. If you've seen the show, it opens with a banger, which is. Jacqueline Onassis once gave me some wise advice. She told me that while tabloids, magazines and newspapers often sold ridiculous lies, there were nothing more than birdcage liner by the next day. At the time, I found great comfort and consolation in these words, but they no longer hold true. And then she goes on to like contrast that with the digital age. I think it's really interesting to and pointed to open this op ed with a private moment between Jackie O and Daryl and the real Daryl. Because the show portrays Jackie as like truly hating her and like refusing to go to dinner when she's there. And that was interesting.

[George Severis]

It's also such an F you to basically tell them, like, no matter how much research you think you've done or what you've made up or whatever, like, I have actual memories with these people and I have had private conversations that you will never be privy to when you are writing. You know, my character.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah. And I just. You really feel for her. I mean, I felt for her even before this op ed existed. But. But two. I mean, it just must be so crazy making even when there's a disclaimer at the beginning of every episode that this is like a fictionalized version of sort of true events to be a real person and to be essentially like collateral damage in this show must be like, crazy making.

[George Severis]

Well, especially when this was surely a traumatic. Regardless of whether they had broken up or not. Her very recent ex was killed tragically. She was. This was like, at the peak of her fame, she was already then portrayed as kind of like a ditzy blonde. It's something that, it's funny. Like, when I personally, before all this, when I personally thought of Daryl Hannah, I didn't think of her dating JFK Jr. I thought of her in, you know, Splash. I thought of her in Kill Bill. I thought of her recently being very kind of. Of charmingly Gen X Lib at the Oscars and throwing up a fist for Ukraine. Like, I kind of think of her as this, like, charming icon who now is like, grandfathered in, as one of the kind of greats of a certain era of Hollywood. And so it must be disorienting for her to suddenly thinking she had transcended this one era of her life be brought right back into it.

[Julia Claire]

Right. And there are people, which she says in the Op Ed, there are people, younger people, I assume, with no media literacy, who are literally writing hateful emails and DMs and comments to her because they believe that this Daryl Hannah in the show is real. And, you know, to have like, a really important relationship in your life drudged up, fictionalized, and then casting you as the villain must be just, like, incredibly painful. We should read a few lines from, from the Op Ed. It's very similar to what we talked about on the last episode. She says storytelling requires tension. It often requires an obstacle. But a real living person is not a narrative device. There is also a gendered dimension to this thinking. Popular culture has long elevated certain women by portraying others as rivals, obstacles or villains. Isn't it textbook misogyny to tear down one woman in order to build up another? You know, she goes on to basically like, like, deny the series of events that the. That love story portrays as fact. Like, she was a. A cokehead and she was. She pressured JFK Jr into marriage and compared Jackie O's death to her dogs.

[George Severis]

And she says, she says she is portrayed as quote, irritating, self absorbed, whiny and inappropriate. Which is true. That is how she's portrayed.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah, absolutely.

[George Severis]

I mean, these things are tough because. Because I completely empathize with her. And I would hate to, you know, were I a beautiful blonde actress, I would hate to be portrayed in this way in a television series. That said, do I think the show has the right to fictionalize however they want? Essentially, yes. Like, I do think. I don't think this disqualifies the show. I think it is a fictionalized account. And I think any fictionalized account, down to, I don't know, all the President's Men or whatever, insert kind of, like, recent history narrative here, is going to go ahead and take some liberty. But I think. I don't know, it's sort of like part of the beauty of living in a country with, like, free speech is that then she is also allowed to write an op ed kind of disputing some of the things that are. That are portrayed in the show. So I don't necessarily think her account is, you know, made me hate the show or made me, you know, made me think it's completely immoral. But I think it is a very important addendum that, like, I'm happy, as unhappy as out there. Yeah.

[Julia Claire]

And we should also say that I think her criticisms are completely fair. And then. But then in the op ed, she does go on to talk about how she's been, like, an advocate for environmental causes and seniors living with Alzheimer's and dementia and stuff like that. And it does get a little. There was just. There was some stuff in the op ed that I was like, okay, well, we don't need.

[George Severis]

Well, I mean, she is ultimately, you know, a wealthy actress that has devoted her life to basically attending galas, which I. I say with no. Like, I think it's much better than other things. Much better than other things you could. You could be doing with your life. But I. I think certainly there is some ego there that is part of this. I mean, she's literally a movie star.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah, she's. I mean, she's also like, a kooky lady. Like, she is.

[George Severis]

She's a kooky artist.

[Julia Claire]

She's a kooky lady. She's. She kind of always has been. And I think she's gotten even kookier and more eccentric with age.

[George Severis]

She has a sort of Sharon Stone quality.

[Julia Claire]

Totally. She's been a kooky lady in the public consciousness for decades. So while I did think that a lot of her criticisms were entirely fair, I also thought the kookier elements of it were so. Darrell. And the last line of it is, birdcage liners biodegrade online. Lies endure. May love and truth prevail.

[George Severis]

Wow. Of course, birdcage liners being a reference to the aforementioned Jackie Kennedy quote that newspapers and tabloids become birdcage liners the next day. I mean, you know what? And you know, the other thing about all of this is like, actually, what's real tragic about it is that her real personality, as we're saying, is more kooky and interesting than the one portrayed. Like, that would have been the real challenge how to portray this kind of, like, vivacious, you know, bleeding heart, interesting kind of character. Like, I do think, I'm sure, that they had some sort of volatility in their relationship, her and JFK Jr. I mean, obviously they ended up, you know, getting back together and breaking up so many times, but I think the valence of it is portrayed a little incorrectly, if I were to. To imagine.

[Julia Claire]

I agree with you, and I. I also think that there are so many writers, both male and female, that do not know how to write a kooky female character while also not making her

[George Severis]

dumb and not making her manic. Pixie dream girl.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah, like, she's earthy and, like, a little spiritual. Why does she also have to be. So the last thing we'll talk about is this great piece in the Atlantic by Megan Gerber. It's called Love Story Is a Horror Story. And the subtitle is, the show, which deeply empathizes with John F. Kennedy, Jr. And Carolyn Bassett, is ultimately just a paparazzo by any other means. And there were just so many bangers in this piece. I thought it was a really kind of thoughtful and measured criticism of the show and talks about many of the things that you and I have discussed. George. Which is the interesting place that Love Story occupies in the Ryan Murphy universe, because it is. It's similar and different. It is a lot kinder to its subjects than a lot of other, you know, like, American crime story, American sports story, Monster, definitely. So I pulled some of the aspects of this piece that I think really, really hit the themes that we have explored. And one of them was this is a hagiography fit for an age that prefers its heroes to be relatable. Love Story, by turns, elevates its lovers, pities them, humanizes them. Above all, it sympathizes with them. But a compelling fiction is fiction all the same. It also talks about how the true crime genre is intensely moralistic by nature. And we don't really think of Love Story as a true crime show, but it kind of has that tint.

[George Severis]

I mean, I think anything with the Kennedys is, on some level, a true crime show. I mean, the whole idea of the Kennedy curse and what is happening behind closed doors and the paranoia and the conspiracy theories, I mean, it is at least spiritually true crime.

[Julia Claire]

Basically. This piece in the Atlantic really explores the way in which the paparazzi are condemned in Love Story. But how kind of ironic that is. She says. But Love Story offers its condemnations without seeming to wonder whether a work of semi fiction, a full scale imagining of two people's lives, is a paparazzo by other means. And I think, you know, we talked about that last time that, like, these two people were so exploited by the media, and that is one of the central tenants of the show, but the show itself is like yet another exploitation of them.

[George Severis]

It honestly reminds me of, Of, I don't know, like the free Britney documentary or something where, yeah, the whole argument it's making is that Britney Spears was. Her life was ruined by paparazzi and by the. The tabloids of the 2000s. And then it's literally sort of platforming these people whose entire life is like stalking her Instagram and posting things about her they don't even know. And I mean, it's a tenuous connection. But I, I do just think, think oftentimes we think we're so much more enlightened than we actually are. And in many ways the current media environment is way more toxic than either, you know, 2000s blogs or 90s tabloids.

[Julia Claire]

Right. And I also think that, you know, especially over the last however many years, we've done kind of like a cultural reckoning with the way that certain women in the public eye were treated in the 90s in particular. And another Ryan Murphy project, the impeachment.

[George Severis]

That's right.

[Julia Claire]

You know, Monica Lewinsky is like the protagonist in that show. She was also the real Monica Lewinsky was also an executive producer on that show. And I don't know, again, I think that if this had been the Carolyn Bissette story, that might have come through a little bit more. But to me, one of my issues with the show is that it doesn't go far enough in like, the reckoning with that and again, just kind of like exploits Carolyn in a different way. The paparazzi made her out to be, and like the tabloids made her out to be like a coked up bitch. And this show is kind of deifying her in a certain way.

[George Severis]

And she's also, it's. She's a perfect person to kind of mythologize about because she died very young. So we only have these very youthful, beautiful images of her. And because famously, as we've said about, there's like barely any footage of her speaking or living other than, you know, still images and the argument at the park and whatever else, we have no

[Julia Claire]

idea what her opinions were. We don't really know any of her true beliefs. She's perfect. She's dead young and beautiful, and she will be young and beautiful forever. One of the other angles that I think is particularly pertinent to our show that. That Megan talks about is where Love Story comes in, in this moment in history. She said Love Story airs and streams in a moment when the Kennedy name has lost much of the cultural currency it once had. Robert F. Kennedy Jr. The slain president's nephew and John Jr. S cousin, has made a name for himself by turning conspiracy theories into national policy. Camelot, always a fantasy, looks ever more like delusion. I think we talked about this a little bit last time, but, like, we are in a moment where I think we're ready for the rosy picture of Camelot to be punctured. And there's something about the portrayal of the Kennedys in this show that feels almost not of the moment and feels completely.

[George Severis]

I completely agreed.

[Julia Claire]

Agree. A little like 10 plus years ago.

[George Severis]

Yeah, it's funny. And I actually think that might be why Gen Z is reacting so strongly to it, is because they don't remember the old. Like, we grew up with the Kennedys being mythologized in this way. And so, you know, I'm seeing it, and I'm obviously kind of slightly rolling my eyes at some of the more rosy depictions, but I think if I was, you know, 1921, the only. Only Kennedies, I guess I would know real. I mean, I would know RFK Jr. As the primary one because he's in the news so much. And then maybe I would be aware of, you know, Jackie O or. Or. I mean, obviously jfk, like, in history. But I just mean, like, in terms of the Kennedys as kind of like pop cultural figures. So I do think it's so exciting for them to, like, discover that there was this sort of, like, American royal couple. Yeah, like this. Without any of the baggage that maybe we grew up with being, like, a tiny bit older. But yes, I. It is, is. It is such a funny time to be mythologizing about the Kennedys in such a disconnected way when the ones that are in the news now are flopping so hard. Because it's funny. Like, we. We've certainly talked about RFK Jr. And Jack Schlossberg repeatedly on the podcast. We haven't checked in on them in a few episodes. But it's just, you know, RFK Jr. Is still sort of a complete, complete embarrassment. Jack Schlossberg is running for Congress and not really connecting with anyone. It all feels very forced. He was just on CBS mornings and kind of like couldn't really give a coherent answer as to why he was running.

[Julia Claire]

So, like, better than he should be. Wait, what about Nancy Pelosi? What did she do?

[George Severis]

Well, she endorsed him.

[Julia Claire]

No, I didn't.

[George Severis]

Which to me is. I mean, listen, maybe I'm wrong. I was gonna say it's like the kiss of death because it shows how the image he's trying to project, which is that he's like an interesting young voice, is not, Is not in fact, self evidently not true, considering he is, you know, another Kennedy with very kind of like murky, not clear politics. But I guess he, I guess you're right that he is leading in the polls.

[Julia Claire]

I, I have to imagine that that is just like a name recognition thing. And boy, do I hope that that's corrected. But also, if any district in New York is going to be going to be wooed by, By a Kennedy, a Kennedy with nothing to say, it is, it is them.

[George Severis]

No, it's true. It's true. In conclusion, the Kennedys are a land of contrasts. Is, as always, where we land. It really is. I, I'm. Every time I try to assess whether, you know, the, the Kennedy, the power of the Kennedy name is, is on its way out, something like this happens where I'm like, wow, so this is the number one show in the country and Jack Schlossberg is leading the polls in his congressional race. Like, and, and as we said, RFK Jr. Is literally in the, in the administration. So who knows, maybe we'll be still talking about them in 20.

[Julia Claire]

RFK Jr has brought back measles. And congratulations to him.

[George Severis]

Yeah, talk about nostalgia. He's nostalgic for measles. Well, we wanted to check in on the show before the finale because, you know, we wanted to, we wanted to stay current. We're obviously wanted to take advantage of the fact that this is the number one Kennedy story in the entire time we've been doing this podcast.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah.

[George Severis]

And I don't know, it's been fun. I don't regret watching it. I don't feel like it's been wasted time. Like, I've watched so many things on in the streaming era that I'm like, God, I wish I had spent my time doing literally anything else. And this isn't one the of.

[Julia Claire]

I know. And I, I think you and I maybe have slightly different relationships to the things that we watch because you, as, as you mentioned, you watched so much of the, of Ryan Murphy's beauty.

[George Severis]

I know. Thankfully I did stop and you also

[Julia Claire]

watched and just like that. And there are so many things where I'm like, George, please have.

[George Severis]

I know. Why are you doing this?

[Julia Claire]

Have a modicum of self respect.

[George Severis]

I know. And yet I refuse to, to.

[Julia Claire]

But so in that way, yes, I, I, I can see that. Like compared to some of the other things that you watch, this is, this is really good.

[George Severis]

Yeah, listen, I, it's, it's amazing for having on in the background while you're doing emails and that is, that is put that on the COVID of the DVD collection from the co host of United States of Kennedy, George S.

[Julia Claire]

Oh, God bless.

[George Severis]

Enjoy the finale, everyone. We unfortunately do know what happens and it's not a happy ending.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah, no spoilers though. We won't spoil it.

[George Severis]

Yeah, no, we're not going to spoil anything. And that's it. And next week we have a really good episode. We're going back to the main Kennedy siblings and we are talking about Eunice Kennedy, who we really knew very little about. And now we are complete converts. We are team Eunice all the way. She's our favorite Kennedy. It's a really good interview and we can't wait for you to listen to it.

[Julia Claire]

Make a biopic about Eunice next time.

[George Severis]

Oh, my God, I would love that. No one would watch it because it's about an actual smart and empowered woman,

[Julia Claire]

but it's like about a mouthy, tall broad. I love her.

[George Severis]

No, she's great. She's our favorite. All right, that is it for this week's episode. Subscribe and follow United States of Kennedy for all things Kennedy every. Every week.

[Julia Claire]

United States of Kennedy is hosted by me, Julia, Claire and George Taveras.

[George Severis]

Original music by Joshua Topolski.

[Julia Claire]

Editing by Graham Gibson.

[George Severis]

Mixing and mastering by Doug Boehm.

[Julia Claire]

Research by Dave Bruce and Austin Thompson.

[George Severis]

Our producer is Carmen Laurent.

[Julia Claire]

Our executive producer is Jenna Cagle.

[George Severis]

Created by Lyra Smith.

[Julia Claire]

United States of Kennedy is a production of I Heart Podcasts.

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[George Severis]

Home.

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[Julia Claire]

This is an I Heart podcast.

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