Ryan Murphy’s ‘Love Story: JFK Jr. & Carolyn Bessette’

Summary

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United States of Kennedy: Ryan Murphy’s ‘Love Story: JFK Jr. & Carolyn Bessette’

Podcast: United States of Kennedy (iHeartPodcasts)
Hosts: George Civeris, Julia Claire
Air Date: February 23, 2026
Episode Focus: A critical review and cultural discussion of Ryan Murphy’s series “Love Story: JFK Jr. & Carolyn Bessette.”

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Episode Overview

This episode of "United States of Kennedy" explores the new Ryan Murphy-produced mini-series “Love Story: John F. Kennedy Jr. & Carolyn Bessette.” The hosts delve into the show’s source material, casting, cultural impact, the mythos of the Kennedys, and the balance of reverence and dramatization in biographical television. They analyze standout performances, critique the show's approach to history and camp, and situate it within Murphy's broader TV oeuvre and the ongoing Kennedy fascination.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Context & Source Material

• The show is based on Elizabeth Beller’s book, Once Upon a Time: The Captivating Life of Carolyn Bessette Kennedy and dramatizes the high-profile courtship, turbulent relationship, and tragic deaths of JFK Jr. and Carolyn (02:57).
• The podcast has previously covered related topics—including JFK Jr.’s magazine George, Carolyn as a 90s it-girl, and Kennedy family fashion (03:55).

2. Initial Reactions, Controversies, and Casting

• Controversial Rollout: First look photos of the show’s leads were heavily mocked for historical inaccuracies, especially regarding Carolyn's hair and wardrobe (04:23).
  • Carolyn’s real hair colorist publicly criticized the production, prompting reshoots and a new wardrobe/hair approach (04:46).
• Family Backlash: JFK Jr.’s nephew, Jack Schlossberg, labeled the show “grotesque,” causing a minor online feud with Ryan Murphy (05:05).
• Critical Reception: Response to the series is “generally mixed,” with appreciation for its style and lead performance, but some finding it “a little boring overall in its Wikipedia-ness.”
  “People appreciate some parts of it and maybe find it honestly, a little boring overall in its Wikipedia-ness.” – George (05:23)
• Sarah Pidgeon’s Performance: Universally praised as Carolyn, despite the challenge of reconstructing her character with little archival voice footage (05:52–07:02).
  “She does truly the impossible... creating a character that feels both like a tribute to Carolyn and also an imaginative rendering of what she could have been like…” – George (07:02)

3. Setting and Nostalgia: 90s New York

• The show’s rendering of 90s New York is evocative and seductive:
  • Scenes at iconic locations like Michael’s, the Tribeca shots, Four Seasons (now The Grill), and Calvin Klein’s offices create a rich aesthetic (09:15–10:05).
  • “Point at the TV” moments, like Carolyn discovering Kate Moss, are highlighted as irresistible fan service (10:05).
    “It makes you want to work in fashion in the 90s...” – George (09:15)

4. Cast Breakdown and Characterization

• JFK Jr. (Paul Anthony Kelly):
  • Good looks and physical resemblance but missing the “secret sauce” and charisma of the real John (11:09–12:46).
  • Portrayed with reverence and humility, lacking JFK Jr.’s documented confidence and playboy edge.
  • Quote: “He plays him so reverently… the original sin of this performance is that he’s playing him with kind of like an aw-shucks humility completely… that's not who he was.” – Julia (12:46)
• Jackie Kennedy (Naomi Watts):
  • Praised for balancing a tricky accent and bringing appropriate camp to the performance (19:46–21:14).
  • The “drunk woman dancing to Camelot” trope noted but Watts's experience with Murphy’s projects is seen as an asset.
• Other Notable Cast:
  • Grace Gummer (Meryl Streep’s daughter) as Caroline Kennedy – great casting and wig, especially.
  • Dre Hemingway as Daryl Hannah – gets the voice and look but written very one-note, depicted as the “villain”/bohemian (21:15–22:56).
  • Generational “nepo baby” casting is noted humorously.

5. The Tone and Thematic Approach

• The show is extremely reverent to the Kennedys, bordering on mythologizing:
  • “It feels like it was produced by the Kennedy family… but… they do not approve of it.” – George (13:15)
  • Non-Kennedy characters (e.g., Daryl Hannah) get unfair villain edits.
  • Attempts to reclaim Carolyn’s legacy sometimes result in other women being portrayed negatively (24:08–24:40).
• The series struggles to balance dramatization with accuracy—too cautious to “go there” with the Kennedys’ flaws or the juicier, more dramatic possibilities for the story.

6. The Ryan Murphy Factor

• Although created by Connor Hines, this is positioned within the “Ryan Murphy universe.”
• The hosts compare it to Murphy’s American Crime Story and other anthology series, noting his “baroque” rather than “camp” aesthetic (25:15–30:42).
• Murphy’s prolific output (“the White Tyler Perry”) is humorously discussed, as is his eventual embrace of “campiness” (30:20–30:42).
  • Quote: “He really doesn’t like [campy]… he prefers baroque.” – George (30:35)

7. Episode Structure & “Wikipedianess”

• The first three episodes focus on:
  • Early 90s NYC; JFK Jr. failing the bar (“the hunk flunks” headline), his open celebrity lifestyle, and his encounters with Carolyn as she ascends at Calvin Klein (34:13–36:17).
  • Noted for precise period details (“The world you want to live in…” – George, 48:39), but possibly at the expense of dramatic conflict.
  • The series’ devotion to historically accurate detail can be both a strength and a drag on narrative excitement (43:10, 49:34).
• The “Wikipedia approach” means showrunners shy away from taking imaginative or critical liberties, aiming for “preemptive defense” against critics (50:11).

8. Media Criticism and Cultural Context

• Referencing Doreen St. Felix’s New Yorker review, the hosts highlight shared criticisms: a lack of grit, absence of broader 90s context, and overly reverent performances, especially Paul Anthony Kelly’s JFK Jr. (39:34–41:08):

  • “The review is called ‘Love Story is a forgettable elegy for Gen X’...” – Julia (39:34)
  • “Kelly is much too recalcitrant or reverent of an actor…”

• The show’s intersection with modern trends like “quiet luxury” and the “clean girl” aesthetic is explored. Carolyn’s real personal style was driven by individuality, not contemporary trendiness (46:36–48:39).

9. Where the Show Falls Short—and Where It Shines

• What’s missing:
  • The series is sometimes “boring,” with real-life drama often richer than what’s depicted.
  • JFK Jr.’s portrayal is too passive; the show misses his “swaggering, dumb guy confidence.”
  • Dialogue can be anachronistic or too “explaining” (e.g., characters talking about their own legacy for the audience’s benefit).
• What works:
  • Visual and setting details, and Sarah Pidgeon’s three-dimensional Carolyn, evoke strong engagement and longing for “that world.”
  • The hosts agree it’s highly watchable, and are eager to keep following.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Sarah Pidgeon’s performance:
  “She does truly the impossible, which is take a famous woman who was known basically only for her looks… creating a character that feels both like a tribute… and an imaginative rendering…” — George (07:02)

• On Paul Anthony Kelly as JFK Jr.:
  “He plays him so reverently… that’s not who he was.” — Julia (12:46)

• On the show’s reverence:
  “It feels like it was produced by the Kennedy family, which is actually ironic because… they do not approve of it.” — George (13:15)

• On Daryl Hannah’s depiction:
  “They did Daryl Hannah so dirty… made her into a really exaggerated Hollywood trope…” — Julia (22:18)

• On style & aesthetic:
  “You look at the outfits she’s wearing and they look completely appropriate for today.” — Julia (48:14)

• On Murphy’s style:
  “Ryan Murphy doesn’t like it when people use the word ‘campy’… prefers ‘baroque’.” — George (30:35) “That’s maybe the campiest way you could respond to that.” — Julia (30:39)

• On the show’s narrative approach:
  “The entire show feels almost like it’s trying to preempt criticism… afraid to actually be messy in the way that Ryan Murphy likes being messy.” — George (50:33)

• On Kennedy myth-building:
  “I think people are hungry for the Kennedy mythology to be punctured. Like, I don't think people would be mad if, you know, you showed them in a slightly less positive light.” — George (54:13)

• Final thoughts:
  “I think overall it’s a really well done series. My two main criticisms… the reverence to the Kennedys… and that it is a little boring… afraid to go there in terms of the more dramatic moments.” — George (54:13) “It could have made for such a more interesting show.” — Julia (58:16) “I know we’re ending on a sort of negative note, but both of us, generally speaking, I think are enjoying this show…” — George (58:23)

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Important Timestamps

• 02:57 — Introduction to the Ryan Murphy show and its source
• 03:55 — Quick refresher on JFK Jr. and Carolyn Bessette’s backgrounds
• 04:23–05:05 — Early controversies surrounding the show’s rollout
• 05:23 — Mixed critical reception and “Wikipedia-ness”
• 05:52–07:02 — Praise for Sarah Pidgeon’s performance
• 09:15–10:05 — Authentic 90s New York on screen
• 11:09–12:46 — Casting and critique of Paul Anthony Kelly as JFK Jr.
• 19:46–21:14 — Naomi Watts as Jackie Kennedy and Murphy’s ensemble casting
• 24:08–24:40 — The show’s double standard in “saving” Carolyn while vilifying other women
• 25:15–30:42 — Placing the series in the “Ryan Murphy universe” and discussion of “baroque vs. camp”
• 34:13–36:17 — Recap of first three episodes: settings, events, narrative structure
• 39:34–41:08 — Quotes and analysis from Doreen St. Felix’s New Yorker review
• 46:36–48:39 — Carolyn’s style and the “quiet luxury” phenomenon
• 50:11–52:17 — On the show’s reluctance to “go for it” and its “preemptive defense” mode
• 54:13–58:23 — Final thoughts: strengths, weaknesses, and why hosts will keep watching

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Summary Conclusion

The hosts deliver a nuanced, entertaining overview of “Love Story: JFK Jr. & Carolyn Bessette”—highlighting Sarah Pidgeon’s standout performance and the mesmerizing 90s NYC aura, while critiquing the lead’s lack of magnetism and the show’s overly reverential, Wikipedia-like approach. Despite these flaws, the sheer style and subject matter keep it watchable, leaving both hosts eager for more—especially if the series dares to puncture the Kennedy myth in future episodes.

Transcript

[Julia Claire]

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[George Severis]

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[George Severis]

I'm George Severis.

[Julia Claire]

And I'm Julia Claire, and this is

[George Severis]

United States of Kennedy, a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. Every week we go into one aspect of the Kennedy story, and today we are finally talking about the new Ryan Murphy Show Love Story, John F. Kennedy Jr. And Carolyn Bessette. Created by Connor Hines, but executive produced by Ryan Murphy, among his other various producing partners. It is based on Elizabeth Beller's book Once Upon a Time the Captivating Life of Carolyn Bessette Kennedy, which came out only a couple years ago, and it dramatizes JFK Jr. And Carolyn's romantic courtship, their volatile private and public relationship, and their tragic deaths in a plane accident in 1999. We have talked about both JFK Jr. And Carolyn Bessette many times before, so please feel free to go into the archives. We've talked about them in our episodes about JFK Jr. As George magazine, Carolyn as a 90s New York it girl, and in our episode about Kennedy fashion

[Julia Claire]

to catch you up. JFK Jr. Was almost 3 years old when his father was assassinated. He grew up in the public eye, and as a young adult he was a fixture in the tabloids. People magazine named him the Sexiest man alive in 1988. Carolyn Bessette was raised in Greenwich, Connecticut and worked her way up at Calvin Klein from shopping mall saleswoman to director of public relations. They were both extremely attractive, fashionable, cool and famous.

[George Severis]

And they died tragically. So, needless to say, Ryan Murphy had to make a show about them. The lead up to the show's premiere was characterized by a couple of minor controversies or major, you know, depending on what your TikTok algorithm is for. First off, the first photos of the two leads were widely mocked on social media for being historically inaccurate, with special hatred reserved for Carolyn's hair and wardrobe.

[Julia Claire]

And Carolyn's actual hair colorist came out when these photos were released and railed against the show.

[George Severis]

That's right. And then the show had to make a statement and say that they've gone back and hired a new wardrobe person. They've redone the wig, they've redone the extensions, and we'll get to it. But I actually think they did a pretty good job.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah. And Jackson Schlossberg, who we've talked about many times on the show, JFK Jr. S nephew spoke out against the show, calling it grotesque on social media. And that whole thing led to an awkward back and forth between he and Ryan Murphy.

[George Severis]

So obviously, as with all things Kennedy, there were a bunch of different controversies. People were mixed in their anticipation of it, but nevertheless, the show is now out, and the response has generally been mixed. I was trying to sort of ascertain, based on reviews, if this is thought of as, like, a success or a failure. And I think people appreciate some parts of it and maybe find it honestly, a little boring overall in its Wikipedia ness. But what was your first impression of it?

[Julia Claire]

Well, my first impression honestly had most to do with Sarah Pidgeon, who plays Carolyn Bissette. She's the standout from this show. I think she's so cool. They did get the color and the extensions right eventually, and I was really impressed by her performance. I love how the show looks. It is very much like a love letter to 90s New York. And I can see why certain people think that there's, like, a level of hollowness to that, but overall, I was pleasantly surprised by the fact that I was interested in it at all. It's not the kind of thing that I would usually watch if we were not doing the show.

[George Severis]

Yeah, I completely agree that Sarah Pigeon is the standout. There are some inconsistent performances throughout, which we can get into later. But she does truly the impossible, which is take a famous woman who was known basically only for her looks. I mean, we've talked about this before, but there is, like, five or 10 seconds of actual video footage of Carolyn talking in total in the world available right now.

[Julia Claire]

Two clips that exist of her voice, and they are, like, three seconds each.

[George Severis]

And so she took basically the very little she had and does a pretty good job of creating a character that feels both like a tribute to Carolyn and also kind of a. I don't know, an imaginative rendering of what she could have been like based on other women that were similar to her of that time, which is crazy for a Ryan Murphy show. It doesn't feel cartoonish. It does not feel super campy. She's doing so much with her face.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah.

[George Severis]

And she's often working with people who are not giving her much in return. And I think it is very impressive what she manages to do. Did you see Stereophonic on stage.

[Julia Claire]

No, I didn't.

[George Severis]

That's where she came from. She was the female lead in Stereophonic, which is sort of like a fictionalized account of Fleetwood Mac recording an album. Wow. And she's incredibly good in it. And I'm very happy that it's all working out for her and that she's come out of a Ryan Murphy project unscathed, which is, you know, you can't say it for everyone.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah. And as the more like, critical reviews of the show not only spare her, but say that she is the shining light at the center of this show.

[George Severis]

Yeah.

[Julia Claire]

I also think it was really smart to get someone who is not super well known and to get a theater actor because she had to create the person who was Carolyn out of whole cloth. And her version of Carolyn feels really three dimensional and like a real person. And I can't say that for all of the depictions in this series.

[George Severis]

Yeah. Well, you know what's funny? It's almost like some of the other actors in some ways have a more difficult task because they have to bring to life someone that we all already have such import. Like if you're playing Daryl Hannah, for example, we've all seen many, many, many hours of footage of Daryl Hannah in our lives, whether it's from her performances or from interviews or from going on a late night show or whatever. And so in some ways, it is more difficult to do that and actually create something original. But it's tough with something like the Kennedys to do anything in their world and not have it come across as completely like community theater level acting.

[Julia Claire]

Totally.

[George Severis]

But I do completely agree with you that my favorite part, other than the Sarah Bitches performance, was the depiction of 90s New York. And they really, like, they film at Michael's, they go to the big coffee table. Book party, is at what is now the Grill, which was like the restaurant at the Four Seasons, which is like such an iconic New York location. All the shots, the outdoor shots of Tribeca, really make you feel like you're in 90s Tribeca, even just like, this is a minor thing, but even the indoors inside of the Calvin Klein offices, it makes you want to work in fashion in the 90s. And, you know, there's things that are designed to make you, you know, point at the tv, like when she discovers Kate Moss. Oh, my God, you know, via. She looks at Kate Moss's headshot and is like, that's the one. We have to hire Kate Moss.

[Julia Claire]

And Kate Moss headshot is in the rejects pile. And she says that Girl, another look

[George Severis]

it got me. I was like, God.

[Julia Claire]

I mean, to be at the rock sea blasting cigs, snorting lines of coke with the world at your fingertips, it really makes you want to be there.

[George Severis]

If anything, I would say, sadly, they get it so right that then it brings even more into relief how boring the actual specifics of the characters are. Like, you're in this amazing environment and you're like, okay, great, so what's going to happen? Is someone going to have a huge fight? And then the actual narrative beats of the show don't match the drama of its environment. So we can go through the cast a little bit. We have Sarah Pigeon, as we said, as Carolyn Bissette Kennedy, Paul Anthony Kelly as JFK Jr. And he was a big discovery. So they did this like huge search to find a perfect JFK Jr. The story goes that he was one of the first people they saw and then they sort of abandoned him. And then they kind of came back to him after seeing hundreds of people and they were like, it was him all along. What did you think of him in the role?

[Julia Claire]

I was very harsh with him in the first few episodes. In the first episode especially, I was like, he is really not a very good actor. I think I've softened on him a little bit. I will say that I think that his portrayal of JFK is really missing a certain secret sauce. That JFK Jr had this kind of dick swinging confidence. And the thing about Paul Anthony Kelly is that he looks really perfect. He's about as close to the real thing as you can get. And he's so hot. He's an extremely handsome man. But even so, you look at pictures of him and then you look at pictures of the real JFK Jr. And it's not even close somehow.

[George Severis]

No, it's true.

[Julia Claire]

It's crazy. JFK Jr. Was just the hottest guy who's ever lived. Maybe besides like Paul Newman complete.

[George Severis]

No, it's the opposite of the problem you normally have with biopics where they cast someone that's too hot. I mean, I just saw the Testament of Ann Lee with Amanda Seyfried. And then I looked up the real Ann Lee. And you know, not to comment on a woman's appearance, but she does not look like Amanda Seyfried. And that's even an issue with other Kennedy movies we've seen. I mean, they cast Hollywood actors to play, you know, Ted Kennedy and Bobby Kennedy and people who were like, okay, yes, they are Kennedys, but they're normal looking people, you know?

[Julia Claire]

Totally.

[George Severis]

Then you're suddenly casting like these truly beautiful model esque. And it's so funny that JFK Jr. Was actually so attractive that the issue is that despite the fact that I'm looking at a beautif, he's not having the same effect on me that JFK Jr. Would.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah, I just think there's something missing in this performance. And he plays him so reverently. He clearly has so much admiration for the real JFK Jr. And I think that's maybe the original sin of this performance is that he's playing him with kind of like an awe shuck's humility completely. You know, in any interviews, videos you've seen of the real JFK Jr. It's just that's not who he was.

[George Severis]

The complete pro Kennedy mythology ethos of the show. So in your face. I mean it feels like it was produced by the Kennedy family, which is actually ironic because they do not approve of it. And as we said, Jack Schlossberg doesn't like it.

[Julia Claire]

Ryan Murphy has in interviews, he's been kind of hostile to their whole like American aristocracy. I know, it's weird thing, it's very strange.

[George Severis]

If it went a little further then it would almost be a campy takedown of the Kennedy mythology because there are elements of that. I mean, if you made all the performances a little more draggy and kept even the same script, it would almost read as a satire or something. But the way it is now, it just is so like the Kennedys were misunderstood and how dare you. You know, they don't owe you anything. And actually they're real people and all this stuff. And the way that the non Kennedy characters are portrayed, like for example, someone like Daryl Hannah is portrayed as like wanting to mooch off of the Kennedy name and everything she does is in poor taste. And she's so Hollywood. Whereas the Kennedys are so classy and sophisticated.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah, she's. She's Hollywood and she's bohemian. She wears flowy dresses and she's the worst thing that you can be if you're a Kennedy. A blonde actress.

[George Severis]

Well, yeah, and then she and her friends are the ones like being bohemian layabouts and doing drugs in the apartment. Whereas JFK Jr is working late in the office because he's so hard working.

[Julia Claire]

Oh my God.

[George Severis]

I mean the awestruck's quality is so spot on because it's almost making the argument that he was in no way complicit in his image being, you know, people's sexiest man alive and like America's hunk It's like what this show wants you to believe is that all he cares about is being first a serious lawyer and then a serious magazine editor and the evil press is projecting this image of the hunk on him. It's like, well, he's the one that is playing football shirtless at the park and he is very much like he is dating celebrities. Like, he's not like, please leave me alone.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah, it wasn't like he only dated Daryl Hannah. He dated Sarah Jessica Parker. He dated Madonna. Madonna. He dated Brooke Shields. This is a guy who in a certain way loved his place in the spotlight. He's a playboy.

[George Severis]

He's a playboy. Yes. And there are flavors of like, I mean, this is not the right comparison, but when you think of a young Gavin Newsom, like Gavin Newsom was leaning into the idea that he was like a hunky politician and doing, you know, photo shoots with with his then wife Kimberly Gilflow, which is another story.

[Julia Claire]

It's one of my favorite pieces.

[George Severis]

It's incredible.

[Julia Claire]

We'll be back with more United States of Kennedy after this break.

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[Julia Claire]

And we're back with more United States of Kennedy.

[George Severis]

Then we have Naomi Watts as Jackie Kennedy.

[Julia Claire]

You know I love her, I love her, I can't help it and I think she's really good. First of all, I Think her accent is great. I. It's a very hard accent to do without becoming a cartoon completely. And I think the quieter moments when it's like her and JFK Jr. Talking in the park, I think she really shines. They did her so dirty with having her dance to Camelot at the end of episode two. She's like, it's so crazy.

[George Severis]

This is a movie trope that I actually was in another Kennedy movie we watched, and of course, now I can't remember. Oh, it was in Jackie.

[Julia Claire]

Oh, my God.

[George Severis]

The trope of a drunk woman putting on a record and dancing by herself. There was a point when Natalie Portman does it in Jackie, and there's something so ridiculous about it, and I couldn't. When that happened, I was like, please make it stop. But I have to say, between this and Truman Capote and the Swans, Naomi Watts has really become a very good Ryan Murphy player. She knows exactly the register you have to hit as, like, an actress of a certain age in a wig in a Ryan Murphy production. She. She gets it. Like, it's the right level of camp. It's the right level of sl. Overacting, but doing it knowingly. I mean, she's like, I could do this more subtly if I wanted to. I have the talent, but I'm choosing to do this.

[Julia Claire]

No, I think she's really good. There's a little bit of overacting, but it's not bad acting. And there is a distinction.

[George Severis]

Yeah, I agree.

[Julia Claire]

I agree.

[George Severis]

Well, we have quite a few nepotism hires in this series. We have Grace Gummer, Meryl Streep's daughter as Caroline Kennedy, Andrea Hemingway, Ernest Hemingway's

[Julia Claire]

granddaughter as Daryl Hannah, and Mariel Hemingway's daughter. Correct?

[George Severis]

Yes. Meryl Hemingway's daughter. That's right. And Grace Gummer is such good casting for Caroline Kennedy, I think.

[Julia Claire]

Great casting.

[George Severis]

There's something about her face, and I think the wig is exactly perfect. Her hair looks exactly like Caroline's looked. And I think Dre Hemingway. I have complicated feelings about this performance because she's actually getting the kind of Los Angeles, whiny Daryl Hannah voice down.

[Julia Claire]

I think her voice is perfect.

[George Severis]

Yes.

[Julia Claire]

I mean, having watched so many Daryl Hannah performances and movies over the years, she sounds just like her. Yeah. In a way that's a little spooky.

[George Severis]

And I think she looks like, if you squint, she looks enough like her to sort of to be believable. But then I find that it almost is like she gets the impression down so well that it becomes one note like, everything is said in the same tone.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah. And also, I mean, the way that the character is written is they did her dirty. They did her so dirty. They made Daryl Hannah again into this, and they were together. JFK Jr and Daryl Hannah were together for on and off years. It's a long time. And they. Yeah, they just kind of made her into a really exaggerated Hollywood trope, I guess, of this, like, kind of bimbo, hippie blonde actress who is obsessed with JFK Jr. And it's depicted as he's, like, pushing her away. He's. He's trying to keep his distance from her, but she just keeps coming back. Because she's obsessed with him.

[George Severis]

Yeah, no, it's very. You know, there's such reverence to the Kennedys that then all the other characters have to become villains because you need someone to be interesting in the story.

[Julia Claire]

And I guess I understand as a plot device for this grand love story, you need, like, the other woman to be the other woman. Yeah.

[George Severis]

Although, you know, it's interesting Carolyn's other love interest is actually portrayed so far. I mean, we've only seen the first few episodes so far. He's actually portrayed in a very generous way. Like, he's just sort of kind of like, not super interesting hunk, and he's, like, grateful that she's getting him opportunities and whatever. Whereas in real life, he actually is much more of a troublemaker than Daryl Hannah, from what I understand.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah. And they really didn't have to make Daryl Hannah into such a bimbo or like a villain in order to set up the love story of JFK Jr. And Carolyn. It could have just been this tormented entanglement that he and Daryl Hannah had, but they really went for it with making her seem crazy. It's very like, oh, she's a crazy girl. That's the depiction in the writing.

[George Severis]

Yeah. It's funny because so much of this book that the show is based on was trying to reclaim Carolyn's legacy because she was so often in the media portrayed as a cokehead vixen who was a bitch. A bitch and out. You know, she just wanted JFK Jr because the. Of. Of his status and money and fame and whatever. And it's funny that in the process of attempting to rescue Carolyn's reputation, they have just, like, completely thrown a different young woman under the bus.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah. Which is so funny that Carolyn was ever seen as, like, a gold digger and someone who just wanted the life of a Kennedy, because I don't know that anybody thought that being a Kennedy was without its problems. And also, couldn't she have just wanted because he was the hottest man?

[George Severis]

Well, yeah, I think with any, quote, unquote, normal woman. Yeah, totally ends up dating a very famous man. There's always. And especially if she's blonde and thin and, you know, doesn't smile in photos, there's just always going to be suspicion there.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah.

[George Severis]

So I want to sort of situate this in the Ryan Murphy universe a little bit. This isn't created by Ryan Murphy, as we said, but it is very much being sold as a Ryan Murphy production. I mean, Ryan Murphy is doing press about it. It was originally called American Love, which of course means that it exists within the general universe of American Crime Story and American Horror Story. It's very similar to American Crime Story in the sense that so much of the pleasure of watching it is in seeing how great actors, or, you know, some not so great actors interpret public figures. We already know. I mean, American Crime Story, Obviously there's the O.J. simpson season and then there's the Gianni Versace season, and it's such a. A staple of these Ryan Murphy shows for an actor to transform. And you have Penelope Cruz doing Donatella Versace and, you know, Sarah Paulson in the OJ Season. What is your history with Ryan Murphy shows?

[Julia Claire]

So I'm famously a little bitch and very afraid of horror. So I have not seen any of the American Horror Story series. I have, however, seen American Crime Story, the OJ Series, which for my money, is some of the best television that's ever existed. It's so good. Beginning to end. I mean, it's incredible acting. When Ryan Murphy dies, that will be on his tombstone. We need to thank him for that series. If nothing else, I loved that series so much. I loved Sarah Paulson, Sterling K. Brown, but even that series has a little bit of camp to it. Like, I thought it was really incredible acting. But then you also have Cuba Gooding Jr playing OJ and who is too small for the part. And he is.

[George Severis]

He's, like, shorter than many of the other actors playing, like, normal lawyers.

[Julia Claire]

He's shorter than David Schwimmer, who is playing Robert Kardashian, his lawyer, which is crazy. And Cuba is doing kind of a kooky performance. But I love that series. I love that Ryan Murphy kind of assembles a crew of divas to just say whatever he wants them to say. And I love that. But what have you seen in the Ryan Murphy cinematic unit universe?

[George Severis]

First of all, I mean, going all the way back to. I don't know, when we were in high school or college, I remember loving Nip Tuck and that being sort of like a foundational kind of trashy prestige TV show. I remember so well. Joan Rivers playing herself and going in and talking about like the work that she has done. I thought that was such a fun cameo. And then Glee. I watched. Watched, you know, sort of longer than I'd like to admit. I find the Ryan Murphy universe so easy to dip in and out of. Yeah. I actually don't know if I've ever actually finished a Ryan Murphy show, but I've seen the first like two or three episodes of many. I've seen the first two or three episodes of every American Crime Story. Oh, you know what? I have finished the first season of American Horror Story with Connie Britton and I have to say I loved it. But I recently been watching the Beauty which I have to say is one of the worst shows I've ever seen. But for whatever reason I can't believe you're watching is shocking that I press play on it multiple times. So there is just wait.

[Julia Claire]

But you didn't finish American Crime Story, the OJ One.

[George Severis]

I think I watched the first half. I really liked it.

[Julia Claire]

But you should finish it. It's really good.

[George Severis]

I should. And I watched the Johnny Versace one. I also watched maybe like three episodes of Talk about getting the setting right. Its portrayal of like Miami during that era was. It's so. And the fashion is so fun. He, you know, it's complicated with someone like Ryan Murphy because is so often he doesn't get it quite right.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah.

[George Severis]

Especially some of the, you know, there's another series he does Monster where each season is about a different serial killer or about a different criminal. And those can be a bit gratuitous in ways that I find a bit in poor taste.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah.

[George Severis]

But at the same time he does have a special sauce and when it works, it sort of works. And I've. I have to begrudgingly sort of appreciate his uv.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah. His output is so high. The fact that he released two series within a few weeks of each other. Like he is just always churning it out.

[George Severis]

Always churning it out. I mean all's fair was not that long ago. It was maybe like six months ago.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah.

[George Severis]

He's currently working on the Brett Easton Ellis adaptation of the Shards which is a hugely anticipated thing. It's non stop.

[Julia Claire]

So with output that voluminous, not all of it is even close to good. But when it is good, it's really good.

[George Severis]

I mean he is sort of the White Tyler Perry in this way, like he is churning them out. I don't want to know anything about the working conditions on these shows. Please do not, do not tell me. I don't want to know.

[Julia Claire]

I mean I have to imagine just from the people involved. Please tell me that he works union, unlike Tyler Perry works with SAG and wga. I have to imagine that he does does.

[George Severis]

Let's hope so.

[Julia Claire]

But yeah. Thank you. White Tyler Perry.

[George Severis]

Yes, One of my favorite Ryan Murphy quotes from many, many years ago is someone asked him how he feels about the adjective campy that's used to describe his work and he said that he really doesn't like it when people use the word campy and he prefers baroque.

[Julia Claire]

Oh my God.

[George Severis]

And I just thought that was one of the funniest, one of the funniest things.

[Julia Claire]

That's maybe the campiest way you could respond to that.

[George Severis]

It's exactly. It's so funny to not understand that being a gay guy saying I actually describe my as baroque is the campiest possible thing you can be saying.

[Julia Claire]

We're going to take a short break. Stay with us.

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[Julia Claire]

Co.

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Individual results may vary. Visit loseweightnow. Co and get started today. That's loseweightnow. Co. Let's talk about modern home shopping. It's sort of become a fun side hobby, right? Scrolling listings at night, dreaming about kitchens you've never seen or backyards you haven't even stepped foot in. All from the comfort of pretty much anywhere. Redfin knows a lot of people like you want to own but are stuck in this browsing mode loop. That's where Redfin flips the script. With listings that update within minutes and tours you can book right from the Redfin app, you can see your dream home the moment it appears. Now, liking a listing is easy, but actually landing it, that's where Redfin comes in. Redfin has over 2200 agents with local expertise, and Redfin agents close twice as many deals as other agents. That means they want to help you win, not just window shop. Redfin is built to help you go from just looking to wait. This could actually be home. So become the newest neighbor on the block. Visit redfin.com to start finding and start owning. That's redfin.com hi, I'm Cindy Crawford and

[Julia Claire]

I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty. Well, I don't know about you, but like, I never liked being told, oh, wow, you look so good for your age. Like, why even bother saying that?

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[Julia Claire]

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[George Severis]

And we're back with United States of Kennedy.

[Julia Claire]

So the the first three episodes are out right now as of recording. We're on Tuesday the 17th. I think the fourth episode will be out by the time we release this episode. But a quick rundown of the first three episodes is kind of like where we meet JFK Jr. And Carolyn Bessette in 1992. I believe JFK Jr. Has just failed the New York State bar exam for the second time. And it's all over the tabloids. It's all over the COVID of every New York Post.

[George Severis]

The hunk flunks,

[Julia Claire]

which failing the New York State bar is kind of a Kennedy man tradition. RFK Jr. Famously failed the bar multiple times. But the difference for JFK Jr. Is he's working in the Attorney Attorney General's office at the time that he is failing it. But he's also relishing his status as a hunk and someone very visible. Yeah, you don't play football all the time in Central park, in Washington Square park, shirtless, if you don't want to get snapped by the paparazzi.

[George Severis]

Obviously, a big thing with him was that he biked everywhere. And in the show, a huge kind of recurring motif is that he never has a lock for his bike. So he just keeps losing bikes left and right.

[Julia Claire]

And that's another part of the. Aw, shucks. It's like I use a bike lock.

[George Severis]

Right? Exactly.

[Julia Claire]

He's been a New Yorker his whole life, and he's not using a bike lock completely.

[George Severis]

But there is one scene where he's biking away from a paparazzi, but then he turns around and clearly mugs for the camera, and you're like, okay, maybe this show knows a little bit more than we're giving it credit for. Because that, to me, is quintessential JFK Jr, which is like, I'm a man of the people. I'm rollerblading, I'm biking, but I'm gonna literally turn around and give you blue steel.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah. And like, look at me winking at the camera. Camera.

[George Severis]

So, yeah, it opens with, you know, it's this classic cold open, which is the most obvious possible cold open you can have, which is the day that they die. You see them boarding the plane. You see someone warn him, you know, conditions are bad. Your pilot instructor is not.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah, the pilot instructor is not there.

[George Severis]

And then, of course, you see them literally on the plane that we all know as the audience is about to crash. Then you get the title card. And then we go back to early 90s when they're meeting. So, yes, JFK junior senior failing the bar exam, biking around Tribeca. Carolyn Bessette has been plucked out of nowhere because she worked at a Calvin Klein sorta mall. And she's now working at the Chestnut

[Julia Claire]

Hill Mall in Massachusetts.

[George Severis]

Oh, of course. And now she is working at Calvin Klein HQ. JFK Jr. Is failing the bar exam. They keep sort of meeting and clearly having sexual chemistry, but she is on and off dating this kind of dumb cater waiter slash model. He is on and off dating Daryl Hannah. They go to the launch of the big pool based photography coffee table book pools, which I have to say, I have found on ebay and I will be purchasing. And then the third episode sort of takes a more dramatic turn and is focused on Jackie within one episode, going from completely healthy to having died, it

[Julia Claire]

just sort of like she's fine and then she dies.

[George Severis]

Fast tracks. Yeah.

[Julia Claire]

The thing that I really do appreciate about this series, and I think this is a big credit to Sarah Pigeon, is I feel like getting right, as far as we know, the way that Carolyn besets, like, everyone who knew her, everyone who was friends with her, who worked with her. The way that they all described her was like she was really lively and opinionated and, like, kind of demanding and a little bossy. And that spark comes through in Sarah Pidgeon's performance and I really thought that that made the character so much more three dimensional completely.

[George Severis]

And I mean, it's almost like a more pared down and grounded version of like a Sex and the City charact who is like a high power rising exec at a fashion label. Like, that's exactly how I would imagine, you know, she is in her own way, a Carrie Bradshaw type. Just a little less naive and bumbling. And bumbling, yeah. She's much more serious. She's like, she knows exactly how to play everyone around her. She knows how to rise the ranks at the job without pushing too hard. You know, she keeps everyone sort of at arm's length. She knows she has to impress Calvin. You know, she knows she has to respect her boss, but also can go around her when it's convenient.

[Julia Claire]

And her job at the time that we meet her in the series is like vip. She basically dressed a lot of Calvin's VIP clients like.

[George Severis]

Yeah, I mean, this goes back to the sort of Wikipedia.

[Julia Claire]

Yes.

[George Severis]

Like, obsession with historical accuracy in the show. And not so much historical accuracy, but like, I guess what the show wants is for you to Google images of what you see on the show and then be like, wow, that really happened. So I mean, an example of that is like you have a scene of Carolyn suggesting to Annette Bening that she wear a blazer over this sort of plain long gown. And then sure enough, if you Google it, that actually did happen at some movie premiere in the early 90s. But speaking of the Wikipedianess of the show, we were sort of reading through a few of the reviews of it and a lot of very smart people have written about it. There was one that you wanted to talk about a little bit.

[Julia Claire]

Yes. So if you haven't read the Dorian St. Felix review in the New Yorker, I highly recommend. Recommend it. I'm going to pull out some of my favorite passages here. The review is called Love Story is a forgettable elegy for Gen X. I think she's seen all eight episodes. We have not. But she makes similar criticisms to the ones that George and I have laid out. There was one line where she said there should be more grit in the story, which is too rhythmically indebted to the swoon beats of Bridgerton, which I think is fair enough. Having not seen Bridgerton, I don't think you have to know what that means. And the Wikipedianist that George was just getting at, she also knows, she said, so much of Love Story is forgettable because the Wikipedia page, like narrowness on the doomed romance, excises all that contemporary drama. President Bill Clinton invoking JFK as a forefather, Ted Kennedy, the brother of jfk and RFK recovering from the scandal of Chappaquiddick and the humiliation of a failed presidential run to become the lion of the Senate. That makes the Kennedy story one of a relationship to a greater culture so compelling. She also has some of the same issues with Paul Anthony Kelly's performance. She said Kelly is much too recalcitrant or reverent of an actor to get at the root of Kennedy's sexual appeal, his swagger. But at least he does look the part. The acting mandate was evidently to go puppy.

[George Severis]

Yeah, he really does go puppy. And it's actually funny because it's sort of a missed opportunity because you actually don't need to do much to make a character like that be so, like, swoon worthy. Like I could imagine, in an almost heated rivalry way, you know, making him a little more Ilia, let's say, and a little less the other one, and having him be a little more sort of like, dominating. And, you know, rather than constantly sending flowers to Carolyn, sort of, you know, looking at her across the room and catching her off guard, Carolyn is basically, so far at least, always in control. And maybe that's what they're setting. Yeah, like, maybe that's what they're setting up. That then when they finally do get together, she loses control because she's suddenly taken into the Kennedy orbit, which I think narratively would make sense. But I mean, when Carolyn is basically, like, blowing him off, you're kind of like, you go, girl. Whereas what you should be feeling is, like this incredible erotic charge.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah. I think what is lacking here is that the character JFK Jr. Should have this, like, animal magnetism.

[George Severis]

Yeah, yeah.

[Julia Claire]

Like, there's a scene where on their first date, he's, like, very late and she's about to leave. I don't know, the fact that she ends up going to dinner with him doesn't feel very real. I'm like, he's not magnetic enough to pull this off. And I really think that if Paul Anthony Kelly had played it with like a little more juice, you'd be like, oh well, of course she's gonna go on the date with him anyways, even though he was so I know it's

[George Severis]

funny because on a meta level the character of Carolyn is in control, but then also Sarah Pidgeon is in control of each scene and I wonder where the former ends and the latter begins. Like how much of it is just her acting circles around him and him sort of not knowing how to play off of that. It also sort of happens with his scenes with his mother because he again, he's like so clearly fading into the background. As you see Naomi Watts, you know, really do her best dying acting and

[Julia Claire]

she can die with the best in them.

[George Severis]

Oh yes.

[Julia Claire]

We'll be back with more United States of Kennedy after this break.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year. You can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc. SEC Registered Advisor. Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete Disclosures available at public.comDisclosures ready to

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[Julia Claire]

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[Julia Claire]

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[Julia Claire]

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[George Severis]

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[George Severis]

And we're back with United States of Kennedy.

[Julia Claire]

Dorian St. Felix says ultimately it is Pigeon's beset that stays with you because she feels like an invention, an injection of an idea and a rejection of the Sphinx one. So again, it's like a rejection of the Carolyn the tabloids portrayed, which was, as we said, like coke addict bitch. And I agree. I think Sarah Pigeon deserves, she deserves all the praise for this show. One of the things that we have to talk about when we talk about this show is the fact that it comes at a time when everyone is like obsessed with the so called quiet luxury aesthetic. So many of the outfits that, you know, once the big controversy of the outfits looking bad first happened, they fired everybody. The outfits that they ended up using in the show are originally sourced pieces. They're like, either, you know, the original clothes themselves or the designers that Carolyn wore. But I thought Dorian had something interesting to say. She said most anachronistically some recruit Bessette as an avatar for so called quiet luxury and clean girl aesthetics. Recent trends that are expressions not of individual personality, but of discernment and discipline turned menacingly inward. And I thought that was so great because Carolyn, in her personal style, was really averse to trends. Like she wore a Birkin bag before it became kind of the cultural icon that it would go on to become. And I think that if she were around today, she would not be wearing one. She would be wearing kind of like the cool indie designers. She had just a very strong personal style. And the clean girl aesthetic, quote, unquote, is to just like, it's a trend. It has nothing to do with personal style. Right. But what I do love is, and I think what everybody loves about Carolyn's style is that her clothes are timeless. You look at the outfits that she's wearing, and they look completely appropriate for today.

[George Severis]

Yeah, the clothes just are. Along with the different restaurants they go to, the different settings, along with the Tribeca exterior shots. I mean, it's just a world you want to live in. And you almost wish there was just like a documentary of about that era and you could get, like, really kooky talking head interviews with random women that worked at, you know, Calvin Klein or at the. Or people that worked at George magazine or whatever. Because I'm sure there were so many characters. Characters that we're not getting.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah. And she was like, from all accounts of her, an extremely outgoing person, like kind of an extrovert. And again, maybe that's the tension that they're setting up, which is that she becomes so shut down once she and JFK Jr get married, which I think there is like, somewhat of a record of that. But I just really. I wanted to live in her world.

[George Severis]

Yeah.

[Julia Claire]

Even more, I wanted to see this, like, grassy, kind of like chip on her shoulder gal.

[George Severis]

I think this goes back to the Wikipedianess of it, because I think what I'm realizing is one of the reasons why it feels a little boring and a little dull is because they almost are afraid to stray from things that we know happened. You know, it's like they're so dedicated. And of course, they are taking artistic license with things. And as we said, the show is.

[Julia Claire]

And they preface every episode with certain depictions are fictional completely.

[George Severis]

And also, by the way, why not

[Julia Claire]

just go for it?

[George Severis]

Why not go for it? Yeah. Well, I think the show is. It almost feels in the same way that the clothes are so good because it's a reaction to criticism. The entire show feels almost like, it's trying to preempt criticism. Like, it's trying so hard to get it right in a straight student way that it's afraid to actually be messy in the way that Ryan Murphy likes being messy.

[Julia Claire]

Which is so interesting because Ryan Murphy, as we alluded to, so Jack Schlossberg called this. When before it even came out, he called it grotesque exploitation of his uncle or whatever. And then Ryan Murphy hits back with like, I can't believe you're so offended about someone you don't even remember.

[George Severis]

I mean, insane, insane, insane thing to say.

[Julia Claire]

And then they just had this, like, war, little war of words, only for

[George Severis]

him to then release a show that is like, the most sort of like.

[Julia Claire]

Exactly. That's what I was getting at is like, it's actually extremely reverent to the

[George Severis]

Kennedys of specifically JFK junior. JFK junior because you're seeing, for example, at least you see Carolyn again. We've only seen the first few episodes, but, I mean, you see, Carolyn is actually a much more complex character by design. You see her. You do see her partying. You do see her doing coke. You do see her. Yes, she's super serious at work, but she's also kind of like, it's a little naughty that she got her boyfriend to be in the Calvin Klein campaign and sort of like mixing business and pleasure. Whereas JFK Jr. Is so just like, good boy, good son, good boyfriend. Like, she's the one who's coming home.

[Julia Claire]

He never did coke.

[George Severis]

I mean, I think that's coming. If we don't get to see him doing coke, I'm gonna be very upset. Another thing, though, about this is something that really kept bothering me is they have so many conversations that are about their own public perception. Like, it's a private conversation between Jackie and her son. And they're talking in this very, like, explanatory way, as though it is in front of an audience. They're talking like, you know, of course the people think they have a piece of us because we grew up in the spotlight.

[Julia Claire]

Who would I have been if I wasn't America's widow?

[George Severis]

Yes, exactly. Like, that's not how those people would talk. Like, those would be obvious things that are in the back of their minds, but they would be unsaid. It's not like in a normal conversation, Caroline would say to her mother, which is a thing that really happens. Like, and you still don't regret marrying Daddy, even despite what you know about him. Now, that's not just like a breakfast conversation that would happen. Out of nowhere.

[Julia Claire]

You know, I really think that this could have been. Because in the first three episodes, the thing that surprised me was that I was a little bored throughout some of it. And I think that they could have made the show so much more interesting if they had cared less about the Kennedy reputation. I think it's a really interesting story. Like this scrappy gal who worked her way up in Calvin Klein, kind of entering this world of American royalty slash vultures completely.

[George Severis]

In fact, I actually think, to me, it would be much more interesting if it wasn't framed as love story and it was in fact framed as, like, this story.

[Julia Claire]

Yes.

[George Severis]

And then you could really get away with portraying the Kennedys as objects of her fascination or whatever. Like, if the audience is on her side and if we're following her along, it's much more interesting to be like, oh, my God, can you believe I just met, you know, JFK Jr. That is so weird. He came into my office.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah. It's such a dramatic thing. And it could be set up as, like the catalyst for her downfall, which is exactly what they. They were.

[George Severis]

Which is what they were. Yeah.

[Julia Claire]

She wouldn't have died if she never met these people.

[George Severis]

I know it's an interesting thing to want to reclaim her legacy, reclaim her as a public figure, but also want to completely maintain the mythology of her great love story with JFK Jr. Yeah, it's a tightrope that I'm not sure if they're walking, you know, as well as they think they are.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah, I don't know. I'm interested. Like, I'm going to keep watching it, for sure.

[George Severis]

Oh, I'll keep watching.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah.

[George Severis]

I think think overall it's a really well done series. My two main criticisms, and I think we agree, is like a. The reverence to the Kennedys is just. It's also. I think people are hungry for the Kennedy mythology to be punctured. Like, I don't think people would be mad if, you know, you. You showed them in a slightly less positive light. But. And then the second thing is. And I think these are related. The second thing is just that it is a little boring. Like, it is just a little bit, like, afraid to go there in terms of the more dramatic moments.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah. And we've seen this actually a few times in on screen depictions of the Kennedys, where the real life events were more exciting and interesting than the way that they are depicted on screen. And often, as was the case in 13 days, it's done to hoist up the Kennedy mythology. And you don't have to do that. I thought we agreed we don't have to do that anymore.

[George Severis]

Completely. Even the idea that JFK jr's issue with the media is just that he's portrayed as a hunk. Like, you could have a journalist character that is out to puncture the Kennedy mythology. You know, you could have more real stakes than like, isn't it annoying that they only see me as a hunk?

[Julia Claire]

I think the last thing I'll say about the portrayal of JFK Jr. Is that. But I get the sense from everything we know about him that and obviously that he. He failed the New York State bar exam twice. He did not really want to be a lawyer. He wanted to be an actor. And they should have let him be an actor because he was. I don't know, there was kind of like, again, like, a swaggering, dumb guy confidence. Yeah. That he had that I really wish we had seen more of. And I think it would make the character make more sense in the show.

[George Severis]

Well, completely. And in fact, I think if he's not gonna be an actor, then that could come through when he's pitching his magazine, for example, like, it is such a privileged hot guy thing to do, to think, okay, I can't be a lawyer. I'm not gonna be a politician. What can I do? I'm gonna start a magazine and I'm gonna put Cindy Crawford on the COVID dressed as George Washington. Like, that is such a puppy dog o shucks kind of guy would not have that idea. So you can't have the scene where he's pitching it be like, he's a genius. And he's mis. It has to be. He's, like, a little bit delusional. He might also be a genius. You can be like, actually, he's the perfect person to start this magazine because he grew up in politics.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Whatever.

[George Severis]

It can be a little more generous towards his intentions, but it needs to show a little bit that he has a little bit of delusion in him. You know, he has a little bit of, like, hot guy, you know, Jon Hammond, 30 Rock. Like, I have this stupid idea, but I think it's genius because no one has ever told me no.

[Julia Claire]

Right. And also. Also, like, I mean, if you have ever interacted with, like, son of privilege prep school guy. That is a degree of confidence and often delusion that is very easy to replicate in writing. Like, you know who that guy is, and you know that JFK Jr. Had that in him.

[George Severis]

And those guys can be charming. You know, it doesn't have to be a Villain.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah. He doesn't have to be a villain, but again, there should be some magnetism and there should be. Be some swagger.

[George Severis]

Yeah. No, truly, more than any other character, the JFK Jr character is basically portrayed as a sweet, nice, and passive person to whom things happen. Even Jackie, for how generous the portrayal is. You do see her flaws. I mean, she has a conversation with Caroline where it's very clear that she favors John over Caroline, and she has certain issues with, you know, approving or not approving of the various partners. I think it's very damning that she decided to, you know, do the whole theatrics of, oh, I'm not feeling well, I'm not gonna come to dinner with the Daryl. Like, she's definitely portrayed as, like, a tough cookie. There's some flaws there with JFK Jr. It's almost like they're afraid to show

[Julia Claire]

that he has flaws, which is crazy. It's just. It's crazy. Again, it could have made for such a more interesting show. Yeah.

[George Severis]

Well, I have to say, you know, I know we're ending on a sort of negative note, but both of us, generally speaking, I think, are enjoying this show, and I'm excited to watch the new episode this week. I think think it's really fun to watch everyone get into these roles, especially Naomi Watts and Sarah Pigeon.

[Julia Claire]

It's making me want to go blonde so badly. And my husband keeps having to say no.

[George Severis]

I mean, especially with the bangs.

[Julia Claire]

You.

[George Severis]

You would be more Daryl Hannah, I

[Julia Claire]

would be more Terran.

[George Severis]

But just when you thought you knew Ryan Murphy's bag of tricks, he suddenly goes from all's fair to this.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah. You know, he does always keep us guessing, and I appreciate that about him. Is guessing. Yeah.

[George Severis]

One final thing, a little fun fact that I discovered on my own is that the guy, his name is Michael Bergen. He is the model that Carolyn dates in the first three episodes and she gets him a Calvin Klein underwear campaign. So he was a. An underwear model. I looked him up, and he now is a realtor in LA with Compass. Compass? The realtor? The real estate company? Yeah. Just has like 4000 followers and is just like a real turn LA and his friends, 50s. No one I knew followed him. He doesn't even have a following of people that are, like, fascinated by his past. He just is like a normal guy who's a dad and is a realtor.

[Julia Claire]

Oh, okay. And the last thing I want to say is I've really been looking for anachronisms in the dialogue, because that is something we can really. Or I guess I haven't been looking for it, but I've had my ears perked for them. And the only one that I found in the first three episodes was, and this is debatable, but when JFK Jr. Is calling Carolyn over and over again, she's not picking up. And then runs into her. He says, I left you like 50 voicemails. And I think it would have been I Left you like 50 messages on your machine. I don't think anybody was saying voicemails back then.

[George Severis]

Oh, interesting. Could call.

[Julia Claire]

I don't know. We'll see, we'll see, we'll see if I catch any others. But other, other than that, it was actually pretty good.

[George Severis]

Well, I'm going to see everyone on Depop when I try to get my hands on a 90s Calvin Klein suit for my next time I attend a wedding. Needless to say, I looked up the pool's coffee table book and on Amazon the used copies are up to like $400.

[Julia Claire]

Of course, of course.

[George Severis]

All right, well, we are going to keep watching and, you know, we'll see if it sort of keeps going in this vein, then maybe we don't need to talk about it on the podcast again. But if it goes off the rails and you know, we're on episode seven.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah, I would be totally open to doing a second episode on this because I'm having a lot of fun. I love talking about tv. I love tv.

[George Severis]

No, it's great. It's great. It's good to have something to do in the evenings.

[Julia Claire]

It's good to make the nights a little less lonely.

[George Severis]

That's right.

[Julia Claire]

So that's it for this week's episode.

[George Severis]

Subscribe and follow United States of Kennedy for all things Kennedy. Every week.

[Julia Claire]

United States of Kennedy is hosted by me, Julia, Claire and George Severis.

[George Severis]

Original music by Joshua Topolsky.

[Julia Claire]

Editing by Graham Gibson.

[George Severis]

Mixing and mastering by Dutch.

[Julia Claire]

Research by Dave Bruce and Austin Thompson.

[George Severis]

Our producer is Carmen Laurent.

[Julia Claire]

Our executive producer is Jenna Cagle.

[George Severis]

Created by Lyra Smith.

[Julia Claire]

United States of Kennedy is a production of I Heart Podcasts.

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[George Severis]

Janyce Torres here. And I'm Austin Hankwitz. We host the podcast Mind the Business, Small Business Success Stories, produced by Ruby Studio in partnership with Intuit QuickBooks.

[Julia Claire]

We're back for season four to talk

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

to some incredible small business owners.

[George Severis]

The big thing about working at tech is that it's ever evolving, ever changing. Everyone's a rookie. That's how fast the industry is changing. So what I'm really excited about is to be part of that change. So listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Julia Claire]

Wasn't that delicious? So good.

[George Severis]

Your bill, ladies.

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I got it.

[Julia Claire]

No, I got it. Seriously, I insist. I insisted first. Don't be silly.

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[George Severis]

People with the Wells Fargo Active Cash Credit card prefer to pay because they earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases. Okay.

[Julia Claire]

Rock, paper, scissors for it. Rock, paper, scissors. Shoot. No.

[George Severis]

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[Julia Claire]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.