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- [00:01]
George Severis
The thing about AI for business?
- [00:02]
Julia Claire
It may not automatically fit the way your business works. At IBM, we've seen this firsthand. But by embedding AI across hr, IT
- [00:12]
George Severis
and procurement processes, we've reduced costs by
- [00:15]
Julia Claire
millions, slash repetitive tasks, and freed thousands
- [00:18]
George Severis
of hours for strategic work.
- [00:20]
Julia Claire
Now we're helping companies get smarter by
- [00:23]
George Severis
putting AI where it actually pays off, deep in the work that moves the business.
- [00:28]
Julia Claire
Let's create smarter business. IBM. Happy Earth Month.
- [00:32]
Jana Kramer
Garnier is proudly partnering with the National park foundation, the official nonprofit partner of the National Park Service. Garnier's support of the National Park Foundation's Service Corps program is enabling young adults and veterans to help care for and enhance the national parks that we all love. Want to lend a hand? Explore Garnier's partnership with the National park foundation and learn how you can help support our national parks@garnierusa.com NPF@ Applebee's Drinks
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- [01:11]
Julia Claire
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- [01:48]
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- [02:27]
Julia Claire
George I'm George Severis and I'm Julia, Claire.
- [02:32]
George Severis
And this is United States of Kennedy, a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. Every week, we go into one aspect of the Kennedy story, and today we are talking about the man who quite literally started it all, the patriarch of the Kennedy clan, Joseph Patrick Kennedy.
- [02:49]
Julia Claire
The Big Bopper himself. That's right.
- [02:52]
George Severis
Joseph Kennedy was a banker, a Wall street savant, a real estate baron, a liquor magnet, a Hollywood produce, a Washington insider, the first ever chair of the sec, a disgraced ambassador during one of the most important times in world history, and, of course, father to some of the most consequential public servants in American life.
- [03:12]
Julia Claire
Joe's rise to prominence tracks some of the most consequential historical events of the early 20th century. And he had a seat at the table for many of them.
- [03:21]
George Severis
So, all right, where did Joseph Kennedy come from? Let's start there, because I think that one of the myths of the Kennedy dynasty, you know, which, of course, we are here in the. In the business of dispelling myths, but one of the myths of the Kennedy dynasty that I think you and I have occasionally dabbled in is this idea that Joe Kennedy was this rags to riches story, that he, like, created this huge fortune himself, and then his kids could, after that, dedicate their lives to public service. And it is true that he multiplied his money immensely while he was alive, and you cannot argue that he had a real talent for making money, but he absolutely was not rags to riches. I mean, we find here that his. His father, P.J. kennedy, Patrick Patrick Kennedy, dropped out of school at 14 to support his family and worked his way up to become a successful businessman and politician. Joe Kennedy was a rich kid in sort of this, like, East Boston aristocracy, which, if, you know the implication of East Boston today, you know, it sounds kind of like a paradox or something, but he was. It was this, like, aristocracy that was, on the one hand, incredibly wealthy. On the other hand, he felt constantly excluded from the sort of waspier sides of New England.
- [04:36]
Julia Claire
Right? So Joe Kennedy was born in 1888 to Irish immigrant parents who came over during the potato famine, many such cases in the greater Boston area. And you're right, he was born into a very comfortable life, a pretty significant level of wealth for the time. But his Irishness and the fact that he is from East Boston kind of made him excluded from the Boston Brahmin set who controlled all the banking and the financial world in Massachusetts at the time, in the greater Boston area. And it didn't really, I think, become clear to him how much discrimination he would face. Until he was in his early 20s. Because again, we should talk about his level of privilege. He went to Boston Latin, which is the best school in Boston. It is public, but it was, you know, the most prestigious, the most academically rigorous school in Boston. And then he went from there to Harvard.
- [05:48]
George Severis
To Harvard, of course. And just very quickly, I mean, in terms of specifics, his father made his first pile of money with a whiskey importing business and a chain of saloons and liquor stores. And he was not a banker himself, but he was a founding shareholder in two local Boston banks, Columbia Trust Co. And the Sumner Savings Bank. So that was his initial fortune. Then he became very involved in politics. He was a major figure in the Massachusetts Democratic Party. And when Joe was born, he was. His father was already serving his third term in the Massachusetts House of Representatives and he was also elected in the state senate. So he was powerful in every possible. The only thing you could not accomplish is being, you know, ethnically a wasp, but he was powerful in every other possibility. He had money, he had power, he had, you know, locally. He was sort of the ward boss of East Boston and a very prominent figure in the Boston Eye. This is, you know, not my words. I don't want to be accused of anti Catholic bias. This is, this is, you know, this is from our research document. But he was, was both powerful in the traditional sense and also locally famous and respected as a, as a politician and as a figure of the Democratic Party. And so as you're saying, Joe was able to go to all the best schools. His family name was already known in Boston. He did not, you know, obviously he made it a, a nationally known name eventually, but this wasn't, you know, he wasn't some nobody. All right, so fast forward to, you know, he graduates Harvard. He, it has everything going for him. And yet because he was Irish, Cathol, like Joe, was excluded from the white shoe finance jobs on Wall street and all the bigger Boston banks. So he had no choice but to start out in a low paid civil servant job as the Assistant state bank examiner. The job only paid $1,500 a year, interestingly, but it was kind of like an entry level job that he could take and kind of, you know, it was, it was an opportunity for him to kind of work his way up. That said, even then when I said work his way up, it implies that he was sort of, that he sort of, you know, started at the bottom. Yeah, started from the bottom, pulled himself up from his bootstraps. But in fact, the next step in his career was that he quit the bank examiner job and went home to East Boston to quote, unquote, save one of the banks that his father helped found. So basically, through a series of machinations, he kind of borrowed money from, in fact, his mother's uncles, not his father's, because his mother was also rich, believe it or not, bought up the majority of the shares of the bank. And with a controlling stake, he named himself president of the bank, which turned out to be kind of more of a PR move, which foreshadows his later dealings with the press because he was always so good with the press and so good at making himself a central figure in the day's news. So basically what that led to is this title that he had. He was written up in the papers as the youngest bank president in Boston, which is just incredible pr, when basically his father all but appointed him to president of this one of many banks that he had control over.
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Julia Claire
Right.
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George Severis
So in terms of his wealth accumulation, after this chapter, he dodged the draft to run a shipyard briefly. He convinced the draft board to give him an industrial deferment to manage the Four River Shipyard. And after that.
- [09:17]
Julia Claire
This is for World War I.
- [09:19]
George Severis
This is World War I.
- [09:20]
Julia Claire
Yes, correct.
- [09:21]
George Severis
And so business obviously slowed after World War I at the shipyard. And then he immediately made another amazing choice, which is that he transitioned into working at Wall Street. And this is where his incredible talents at making money really were able to shine. I mean, we, you know, talking about his various specific dealings in Wall street is not super interesting in audio format, but I have never read about someone that for whom it comes so naturally to basically, like, run mini scams constantly and be multiplying their fortune at all times. I mean, all the things you like. Oh, people, you know, shorting stocks and pump and dump schemes. Like, he was a pioneer. He's like the Michelangelo of, like, Wall street scamming.
- [10:08]
Julia Claire
Yes. And, you know, during the. The stark market crash of 1929, you can really call that his Sistine Chapel.
- [10:16]
George Severis
That's right. That's right.
- [10:20]
Julia Claire
If you've ever seen the big Short, that's where I learned about what shorting stocks means. Basically. Joe Kennedy was kind of a pioneer of betting against the st. Betting against Wall Street. So not only did he come out of the 1929 market crash unscathed, he made money off of it, because for every dollar that a stock lost, he gained it because he had bet against those stocks.
- [10:48]
George Severis
And just in terms of even more simple, kind of scammy energy, even if you don't know what shorting Means like as one example, when he was president of Columbia Trust, which is the bank that again, his father gave to him, basically he basically just used the bank's assets as his personal assets. Like when we talk about how much money he made on the stock market, it's like he was able to basically use kind of like play with house money, use the bank's money as an investment to then game. And then he sort of occasionally would pay the bank back. Sometimes he wouldn't pay the bank back. This was before major financial regulations. So he was like a, an incredibly talented money guy that was given basically unlimited resources, which is a crazy combination. And to his credit, again, he was good at it. Like, he was. There are, you know, we're going to, there's some comparisons you can make to Trump, which we will get to later. But one thing he has over Trump is that he's genuinely talented at multiplying his money.
- [11:52]
Julia Claire
Yeah, he was an actual businessman, a business savant. And it is funny though, because he ran these little schemes and he made a lot of his fortune, his massive fortune by betting against the stock market that he then later became the first president of the securities and Exchange Commission, which is an agency that was developed to protect investors.
- [12:18]
George Severis
That's right. I mean, who would have thought? The next chapter of this story is like, after being born rich, then multiplying his wealth by literally like committing what we would now call financial crimes, he was appointed the first ever head of the SEC by fdr.
- [12:34]
Julia Claire
This country is beautiful. This is the American dream.
- [12:36]
George Severis
It really is. And, and by the way, people in FDR's orbit did tell him, like, what are you doing? Why are you appointing this again, basically financial criminal to regulate the markets. And fdr, I mean, I can't remember the exact quote, but FDR basically said, like, you have to appoint someone who knows how to be a criminal in order to prevent more criminals.
- [12:57]
Julia Claire
It's like how in that movie Catch Me if youf can, which is based on a true story, the real Frank Abagnale was then hired by the FBI to do check fraud. Yeah, because he was so good at it. So, yes, the, the, the Frank Abagnale of his day, many would say, yeah,
- [13:17]
George Severis
it says, you know, when someone asked FDR why he was hiring a, quote, crook to police Wall Street, FDR equipped. It takes one to catch one. So it's literally catching again.
- [13:27]
Julia Claire
Totally, totally. So let's talk about fdr, because Joe Kennedy was originally a Hooverman. He was more of a Republican. So in kind of the same way that Joe Kennedy treated stocks. He also made speculative assessments on politics and FDR was a perfect example of that. He was originally a Hooverman, a Republican, but he saw that the national tide was turning and that the wind was at FDR's back in terms of the New Deal style regulation that he wanted to implement. So he poured tons of money into FDR's campaign. And to George's point about being an early master of the press and pr, he really made sure that his name was always in the same sentence, mentioned in the same breath as FDR's, which, you know, was pretty transparently angling for a cabinet position. And he wanted a much higher position than he ended up getting. But you know, already he was, he was a little bit too mired in scandal and a little bit too known as a high level crook to be Secretary of the Treasury. So Joe Kennedy ends up being appointed as Ambassador to the uk.
- [14:55]
George Severis
So you mentioned, obviously he very intentionally exaggerated his place on the FDR campaign to the press and almost willed himself into this kind of main character. And that's definitely one element of why FDR was attracted to him. But another one was that he had all these connections that the Democrats didn't have. I mean, because of his immense wealth, power, but also just like ability to schmooze and to, you know, entertain people in his various properties, to take people out, to develop relationships with journalists and the media. I mean, he had, he knew William Randolph Hearst, the newspaper publisher. He had connections with Hollywood producers who at the time were all Republicans, according to, according to Patriarch, which is the biography of Joseph Kennedy. He had connections in Wall street, he had connections in the Irish Catholic communities. These are all kind of communities and industries that the Democrats want to make headway in. And so it was, on the one hand he did in a way sort of like scam his way into the FDR inner circle. On the other hand, it was very quid pro quo.
- [16:00]
Julia Claire
Yeah, his presence was definitely advantageous to the FDR administration also. He was like glamorous.
- [16:06]
George Severis
Yes, completely. And before we get into the ambassadorship, just a few more notes on the SEC is like there was something kind of paradoxical in his approach to the sec, because you would think someone like him, who is such a capitalist who made his fortune by, you know, insider trading and pump and dump schemes, you would think someone like him wouldn't want the market to be regulated. But in fact it was because of his deep belief in capitalism that he felt that in order for American capitalism to survive, the public needs to have faith in the market. And that will only happen if normal everyday people feel like they have something to gain from investing in it. And that is apparently how he sold the SEC to all these rich people that otherwise would not have, you know, support of the Democrats. So it's a fascinating place because you would think, why is someone like this even engaging with fdr, who we think of as, you know, such a generally progressive president, someone, you know, the New Deal, whatever else. And it is this kind of strain of Democratic politics that. Julia, you were saying off mic still exists, this sort of like very pro capitalist, pragmatic strain of democratic politics.
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Julia Claire
Yes, and also, I mean, it shows up in Republican politics as well. The idea that it's not as prominent, but the idea among some economists on any kind of point on the political spectrum that in order to protect capitalism, we have to regulate it because the average American needs to be bought in on the idea that they could potentially get ahead via capitalism.
- [17:46]
George Severis
Yes, exactly. And just one final thing. He established so many regulations when he was in the SEC that when he left the sec, he himself had to stop trading stocks. So he actually switched to being more focused on real estate when it came to growing his wealth because he actually had fucked himself over so much that he had created enough regulations that he could not keep doing the things he was doing before to make money. So that's his time at the sec. But tell us about his time.
- [18:21]
Julia Claire
Well, I was just going to say that that almost seems kind of quaint today, the idea that he would have to stop trading stocks after he left the sec.
- [18:27]
George Severis
I know, because you would think today, you know, a powerful politician, even, God forbid, a democratic politician still is able to. Insider trade.
- [18:35]
Julia Claire
Yeah. So, you know, times, maybe times were better back then, we don't know. But anyways, so after the 1932 election in which FDR became president, Joe Kennedy, as we said, was appointed as ambassador to the UK. The early 1930s, as we all know, were an extremely consequential time in European history and in world history. Hitler was coming to power. And there's just. There are many ways in which Joe Kennedy was not the right man for this moment. He was a huge Neville Chamberlain supporter. Another man who was not right for the moment, a man who thought Neville Chamberlain was the Prime Minister in the early 1930s. And he is now infamous for basically thinking that he could appease Hitler. And Joe Kennedy thought the same thing as well. Joe Kennedy kind of saw Hitler as a fellow businessman who could be reasoned with, who could be delayed. Joe Kennedy was for his whole Life kind of a betting man. And he thought that Hitler was going to win and that Britain's defeat was inevitable. So he was actually. There are reports about how he was actually angry at the Royal Air Force after the Battle of Britain, in which all of these British air fighters held off the German invasion, because Joe saw it as kind of forestalling the inevitable, which was he thought that Germany was going to successfully overtake Britain. And I guess this is where we can talk about Joe's anti Semitism.
- [20:31]
George Severis
Yeah, I mean, the biggest stain on Joe Kennedy's legacy is ultimately his appeasement of Hitler and really consistent view that that was the right thing to do. Even after the war ended. And it was, it could not have been more clear who the good guys and the bad guys were, the, what major atrocious cities had happened, how many people were killed. He really maintained that the right thing was to have somehow negotiated with Hitler. And this is also, while the tides are very much turning back home. I mean, one of the issues with him being an ambassador is that that his own community told him this is not a good job for you because you are someone who is very strong willed. You are someone who has. Is very stubborn and has your own point of view and you're not good at following orders and you're not good at being someone else's messenger. And sure enough, he was not good at that. And what happened was he as ambassador, he had like his own ideas about foreign policy and was not following the, you know, official guidance. And so this was just like the biggest sort of stain on his reputation. And his relationship to anti Semitism is interesting because on the one hand, he strongly believes that Jewish people need to get out of Germany as like a, you know, in a humanitarian way, let's say, he, he believes Jewish people need to leave Germany in order for like the Allied powers to negotiate with Hitler, which is, I mean, it's obviously kind of misguided and unrealistic, but you could argue that it comes from a place of not wanting people to be massacred. So on the one hand, there's that element of it, and then on the other hand, there is the blatant anti Semitism that he had, which is completely buying into every possible conspiracy theory about Jewish people, every possible anti Semitic trope. He became more and more paranoid about Jewish people controlling the media and, and them in the media painting Hitler in a negative light because they wanted America to go to war. And that sort of just never ended.
- [22:46]
Julia Claire
Yeah. And despite the fact that the newspaper magnates that he knew were not themselves Jewish like William Randolph Hearst, but he. Yeah. So David Nassau is the historian who wrote the book the Patriarch the Remarkable Life and Turbulent Times of Joseph P. Kennedy. And he talks about this a lot. So ultimately, from a foreign policy perspective, Joe Kennedy believed that Jews globally were pushing America towards war with Germany and kind of held onto that belief, as George said, well into the end of his life. In fact, he only became more ardent in his isolation views on isolationism towards the end of his life. There's also an anecdote that Nassau shares about during this time during the 1930s, Joe Kennedy going to Hollywood and kind of scolding a group of Jewish Hollywood executives, saying that they are going to be part of the reason why the US is pushed into war with Germany and that Hollywood Jews need to stop making all of this anti German propaganda in the form of these.
- [24:06]
George Severis
Yeah, it's like after Charlie Chaplin had made the dictator like it was. And it just went against all logic. I mean, it really was. It really was rooted in not only a. A deep kind of hateful and resentful anti Semitism, but also he had this kind of moral defeatism. Like, as much as. As a businessman, he had, you know, he was a. An iconoclast. Like, he had the courage to make like, big moves and take big risks when it came to moral issues. He really sort of had a real cynicism about the world. Like he.
- [24:48]
Julia Claire
Right.
- [24:50]
George Severis
I think that. And I think that is like a big part of why he failed as a politician, as an ambassador.
- [24:57]
Julia Claire
There is a lot of pessimism among Irish Catholics. I think that it makes a lot of sense for him to have this. This kind of dark, pessimistic worldview based on how he was raised. And I also think that the anti Semitism is part of that as well. I think culturally he was raised with a sort of, you know, he was raised in a. In a culture that was either explicitly or tacitly anti Semitic. And it just happened to manifest itself in this very concrete way when he was ambassador to the uk and yeah, it was something that I think stayed with him until he died. I think he really, obviously, the Kennedy family is so mired in tragedy and I think, think that probably just fit into his worldview really nicely. That of course, so many members of my family have met tragic ends. There is almost a feeling of cursedness in any Irish Catholic family. I feel.
- [26:11]
George Severis
No, completely. And in terms of the. You would think there could be some solidarity among groups that have been discriminated against, you know, if he feels persecuted as an Irish Catholic, you would think maybe that would translate into some sort of, you know, into him relating with people that are in other kind of ethnic minorities. But I think there's this passage in the New York Times review of the, of the Kennedy bio of the Joe Kennedy biography that really sort of encapsulates his complicated relationship to anti Semitism, which is, it says, Kennedy's Irish Catholicism. His outsiderness both paralleled and reinforced his anti Semitism. He identified with Jews to a degree. They, like the Irish, were an oppressed people who had also been persecuted for their religion. But in Kennedy's view, the Irish had fled their holocaust in Ireland and found haven in the New World. Now in the 1930s, the Jews were trying to draw the entire world into war. So pretty much by definition, kind of violent anti Semitism there. But it is an attempt to sort of draw a logical, a logical argument for it.
- [27:19]
Julia Claire
I think it's also just an exact trajectory of every immigrant group in the United States completely. You think that they would have solidarity with other oppressed immigrant groups or just other oppressed ethnic groups in the United States. And at time and again, it just never happens. You saw it with like the way that the Irish treated black people or Italians treated black people, or the fact that, you know, even today some of the most virulently anti immigration people in the United States are themselves descended from immigrants completely.
- [28:02]
George Severis
As he beat the drum on, you know, we have to negotiate with Hitler, we can't go to war even when they're at war, we're doing the wrong thing, whatever. As he beat that drum, he was of course more and more marginalized within the FDR orbit because his opinions were less and less popular, which then in this, you know, kind of vicious cycle made him more anti Semitic because he assumed it was because FDR had, you know, Jewish advisors in his ear that were telling him to not listen to him. And he, and so the, the more he was marginalized, the more anti Semitic he became, basically. And I mean, this is a, a quote from the Nassau biography. The more he found himself on the outside scorned and criticized as an appeaser, a man out of touch with a traitor to the Roosevelt cause, the more he blamed the Jews.
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Julia Claire
Classic. It's a classic.
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George Severis
It's a classic. It's a classic. And it's a classic that we see. I mean, you just see it with so many different groups happening now. It's like there are parallels to be made around like extreme racism in the 90s and 2000s. There are parallels to be made around, like, the way people talk about the LGBT community and trans people now. It's just. It's. You get into this sort of, like, conspiratorial thinking, and you think, you know, if people are telling me I'm wrong, it must be because there's a conspiracy against me.
- [29:27]
Julia Claire
Right. And I think there is something that comes from growing up in an ethnic group that had that sort of social precarity where you just, like, whatever success you receive, you never feel like it's safe. You always feel like it's under. Under threat, which is just a perfect recipe for paranoia. Yes.
- [29:51]
George Severis
And I think that his Joe's status as a sort of insider, outsider kind of led to his undoing, because he was. He had a seat at all the most exclusive tables in the world. He made his way into every industry. I mean, truly, like, finance, Hollywood, government, and yet he always had this chip on his shoulder, and he always felt like there was something, you know, they weren't telling him. And he always felt like there was another step of the ladder that he needed to get to. And I think that did lead to this kind of paranoia, as you say, which, you know, you want to target your anger somewhere.
- [30:32]
Julia Claire
We're going to take a short break. Stay with us. And we're back with more United States of Canada.
- [30:45]
George Severis
Me. All right, so. So we really wanted to spend some time talking about his fall from grace as a government official and his just, like, deep, unambiguous anti Semitism, because it is a hugely important part of his legacy to sort of go back to Joe Kennedy's pre FDR days. You know, he. He made it big on Wall street, but his wealth and fame reached new heights when he started working in Hollywood. So Joe's time in Hollywood was actually very. It was sort of very prescient because it's how you see people that work in, let's say, private equity or big tech firms that are getting into entertainment now. He sort of operated like a private equity firm. I mean, he really was not in it because he was a lover of the arts or because he had any interest in movies. He was there to basically, like, buy businesses, cut them up for parts, sell what he needed to sell, you know, combine the businesses he needed to combine, take advantage of the trends of the time in order to make more money. So this is sort of from our research doc. This is an example of Kennedy's, like, business first strategy at work. So he bought in 1926. His first major move in Hollywood was to buy The Film Booking Office of America. Fbo, a film distributor. He cut costs and strong armed theaters into giving FBO better deals. Then he merged FBO with a larger distribution company, giving the combined company more market share and leverage, which sort of echoes things that are happening now in the entertainment industry. Then he bought a theater chain so that he would have guaranteed venues to show his movies. Then he made an investment in technology, so he bought RCA's Photophone division so that he could install the sound system in his theaters. And this is when, you know, silent films were on their way out and talkies were on the rise. So obviously having a good sound system was a hugely beneficial investment. And finally he merged all of these entities into a new company called RKO Pictures. And it became basically the first vertically integrated Hollywood studio in history. So it had production, distribution and exhibition. I mean, so that's when you, when you say someone is a talented businessman, you know, regardless of my own views on, on art and on media consolidation, I mean to have the, the, to have the vision to understand that like this would be the future of how entertainment worked is, that is something that is some sort of talent.
- [33:19]
Julia Claire
He was a great talent of speculative assets. I guess he completely, you know, at the time when film was moving to the talkies, it wasn't guaranteed that sound was here to stay, even as crazy as that that sounds to our ears now. But he really was like, no, this is the future. And he bought up all of the appropriate hardware and outfitted all the theaters for sound. And it's kind of how he, again, it's just like really how he did everything. He felt the same way about fdr, he felt the same way about certain aspects of the liquor industry during Prohibition. And, and he was just good at being able to see the trends. And that's how he made a crazy amount of money.
- [34:22]
George Severis
And he, during this whole time, this was, you know, before his SEC days, during this whole time, Kennedy was swapping and trading and buying stocks while he was working in Hollywood. You know, he hadn't stopped. And so according to the Nassau book, he made in today's money, $750 million. Basically like during his Hollywood era from the various mergers and acquisitions and stock sales related to RKO Pictures. And as you mentioned earlier, he actually sold most of his high risk Hollywood stocks before the stock market crash of 1929. So he didn't even, he didn't even lose money on it, which famously know the media business and the entertainment business isn't, is not the most stable business to invest in. If you're, you know, a rich finance guy, but somehow he. Even.
- [35:09]
Julia Claire
Even when things are going well.
- [35:11]
George Severis
Exactly.
- [35:12]
Julia Claire
Hollywood is not. Not usually a great investment.
- [35:15]
George Severis
So the last chapter of his Hollywood era that I wanted to talk about, and then this will help us transition into talking about him as, like, a family man and as a husband and as a father, which is arguably the most interesting part of all of this. The last part of his Hollywood era is his relationship with Gloria Swanson. I think talking about Joe's relationship with Gloria Swanson is a perfect segue into his family life because she. That relationship kind of combined his business dealings with his personal dealings, because, you know, spoiler alert, he had a romantic affair with her while also helping her with her business. And just to sort of show you the kind of cutthroat businessman he was, he helped her establish Gloria Swanson Productions. Or I think it was called Gloria Productions. Yes, it was called Gloria Productions. And he would use company money to buy her gifts. So. And she had no idea. So he would buy her these big, lavish gifts. And only after they broke up and their relationship sort of disintegrated did she realize that he, the entire time, had been using her own business funds from her production company that he had helped set up. So if that's not sort of, like, emblematic of Joe Kennedy's whole vibe, then I don't know what it is. I mean, it's like he was unfaithful to his wife. He believed in business above all else. I mean, he was ultimately earnestly helping Gloria Swanson take control over her. Over her business dealings as someone who was before that at the mercy of the big studios. And then he also just believed in, like, business ethics over personal ethics. Like, he really felt like all was fair in business. Like, if he's in business with you, it doesn't matter if you're friends, doesn't matter if you're family, doesn't matter if you know you're having an affair with him. That's up to the lawyers to figure out later. Like, he's gonna do everything in his power to. To come out on top.
- [37:10]
Julia Claire
Yeah, tell. Tell it to the judge was his. His basic M.O. but Gloria Swanson, I mean, for those of you who. Who maybe aren't super familiar with her, she was the biggest Hollywood 20s and 30s. So that was another way in which Joe kind of showed his character. He was so drawn in, obviously, by her celebrity and her power in Hollywood, which is, again, a lot of these patterns that he had interpersonally would be replicated by his sons in the decades to come.
- [37:52]
George Severis
I mean, it is just crazy to think. I know that we have. Have basically debunked the idea that JFK had any kind of consistent affair with Marilyn Monroe. And it would. It was potentially one or two interactions, whatever. But the parallels between JFK and Marilyn, who was, of course, the biggest Hollywood star of her time, and Joe and Gloria Swanson are just. I mean, it really is like father, like son.
- [38:14]
Julia Claire
Yeah.
- [38:15]
George Severis
But his business dealings with her were really substantial. I mean, he apparently freelanced as a talent manager, which is crazy. I mean, he had his hands in so many different things. So she was his highest profile client. She hired him to restructure her personal and professional finances, which was. It was a very difficult. Not difficult, but it was a very dramatic time for her because she was one of the biggest stars of the silent era. And of course, her star had dimmed with the advent of talkies. And he also had a sort of disastrous brief stint as a producer. He helped produce this movie with Swanson called Queen Kelly, which was never released. But then scenes of it were actually used in Sunset Boulevard, which is kind of a fun Hollywood fact to transition from the Swanson of it all into his family life. You know, the question becomes, did Rose know what was the. Obviously, they're all devout Catholics. It's not really the Christian thing to do to cheat on your wife with a Hollywood star. But Gloria Swanson once said about Rose, quote, was she a fool? I asked myself, or a saint, or just a better actress than I was, which is a great Clarice Watson quote. So I think this is a good time. I think we should talk a little bit about his courtship with Rose and then maybe, you know, later on his. His relationship with his children, when he became a father.
- [39:39]
Julia Claire
The Kennedys are probably the most famous Catholic family in America. And it's both in Joe's case and in the case of his children, it has been this kind of long held paradox that they are both so visibly and identifiably Catholic and also so visibly and identifiably serial adulterers. But, and we talked about this a little bit in our episode with Matt Sittman about the Kennedys and Catholicism is that especially with Joe, the connection to Catholicism was almost entirely political and kind of identitarian and not. Not religious at all. Didn't really seem. There's no evidence that he had any particular deep interior spiritual life that was definitely more of Rose's domain. And George, if you want to. Want to talk a little bit about his courtship with Rose. I think this is a great time for that.
- [40:48]
George Severis
So we already mentioned that Joe's family was a very prominent family in East Boston. But. But Rose, to her credit, was the daughter of the mayor of Boston. So, you know, she was also kind of like royalty in the Boston area at the time in a very kind of like, Romeo and Juliet way. Their families were true rivals. So Rose was born Rose Fitzgerald. Obviously, she was the oldest daughter of John F. Fitzgerald, who was known as Honey Fitz. So Honey Fitz and PJ Kennedy. So the two fathers were Democratic political rivals. But, you know, much like many wealthy rival families, they also intersected a lot in the social scene of the time. And the two families once even vacationed together in Maine. So Joe and Rose actually met as kids before they. Before they started a romantic relationship. So Rose's father served two terms as a very popular mayor of Boston, and Joe and Rose started dating when they were in high school. The mayor didn't approve. They kept dating in secret. Their favorite spot was the Christian Science Church in Boston, when they would meet up in secret.
- [41:59]
Julia Claire
Not a very sexy place, in my
- [42:01]
George Severis
opinion, I was about to say, but that seems to be sort of part of the appeal. You know, there has to always be some sort of religious element that they are disobeying. Rose we've talked about before. I mean, she is someone who catches so many strays. And so much of this Kennedy research, like even the New York Times review of the Nassau Joe Kennedy biography, refers to Rose as a priggish, pious, humorless, and deeply boring woman, which I love.
- [42:30]
Julia Claire
I loved that it's not even a
- [42:33]
George Severis
direct quote from the book. I mean, she just. She really just catches so many strays. I mean, I myself was referring to her as a cold and distant mother right before we started recording this episode, because it keeps coming up. And she really dealt with so much being married to him during her life.
- [42:50]
Julia Claire
Life.
- [42:50]
George Severis
But one of her central disappointments in her life was that she really wanted to attend Wellesley College, but her father enrolled her in the Convent of the Sacred Heart, which is, to be clear, a Catholic school, not an actual convent. But it was obviously a much more strict and less liberated, you know, young adulthood that she. Than she could have had otherwise. And she said even when she was, you know, in her 90s, she said that her greatest regret was not attending Wellesley. So I think there were attempts for her to have a more liberated kind of life. And I think at every point, you know, it's like either she was under the. Under the guidance of her father or dealing with Joe's various indiscretions. So something that's interesting is that they had a seven year courtship because of the combination of obviously their relationship being secretive for a very long time and then both of them being in school and her being in the, in a Catholic school. And in that time, Joe was in no way faithful. But according to Harvard student logic, this is what it says in our research doc. You could sleep with a string of chorus girls and still remain loyal to your best girl. So.
- [44:04]
Julia Claire
Well, that's just scientific.
- [44:06]
George Severis
That's just, I mean, that's just facts.
- [44:07]
Julia Claire
Those are, those are just the facts.
- [44:10]
George Severis
So that, that was the courtship. They got married in 1914. Rose was 24, and exactly nine months later, she gave birth to their first child. That's those, those strong Catholic genes there. And so she was with him, you know, during all of this stuff that we've been talking about during his time in finance and Hollywood and politics, she was right there with him. She was an incredibly opinionated and devoutly religious woman, depending on who you ask, she was either a cold and distant mother or a mother that just cared about her kids, you know, following rules and getting into heaven.
- [44:47]
Julia Claire
Right. Or, or a terrible boar or a terrible bore.
- [44:53]
George Severis
So that was Rose. But then I think, I think it's, I think it's appropriate to end on sort of talking about Joe as a father because in many ways his successes and failures as a father were so consequential for American history. It's like he set his kids up to basically do what, whatever they wanted. I mean, one of the most shocking parts of this research is that he left each of his kids with a trust fund that would be worth $1 billion today with a B. So each of the kids, each of his nine children were equipped with a billion dollar trust fund. So it's sort of like, well, he raised them and then they have $1 billion to do whatever they want with that. But what is your take on what he was like as a father? Based on what we've read.
- [45:45]
Julia Claire
We'll be back with more United States of Kennedy after this break.
- [45:51]
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Julia Claire
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George Severis
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Julia Claire
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- [49:23]
Julia Claire
hey I'm Nicole.
- [49:25]
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- [51:48]
George Severis
Yeah, it's like 700 pages.
- [51:51]
Julia Claire
Yeah. The New York Times Book Review referred to it as a cinder block of a book. But yeah, he was given really full latitude by the surviving Kennedy children to do what he wanted with the information they gave him. And it seems as though he was a very attentive father. He had nine children and was away from them very often, but wrote these long and attentive letters to each of them and really did seem to care about each of his children as individuals. Now because of the time he really obviously focused on his sons. We talked about this in the Eunice Kennedy Shriver episode. But he also kind of was clearly one of those dads who especially at the time, like believed that his daughters were very capable as well. It seems like he was this larger than life presence. He was extremely animated. He was handsome, he was photogenic. He was a very. When he was present, he was a very hands on father. And that kind of contrasts to the image we have of Rose, which as you mentioned, is very kind of cold, priggish, almost nun.
- [53:16]
George Severis
Like I think of Rose as sort of like a strict nun in a Catholic school.
- [53:20]
Julia Claire
Yes.
- [53:20]
George Severis
Like, that is the vibe that I get, which is not a. That doesn't mean she's a villain. It just, it's. She is very strict and believes in what she believes in and is sort of, you know, she's raising nine kids. Many of us could not.
- [53:36]
Julia Claire
I certainly couldn't. But I think a lot about the scene that we referenced in a past episode. And I think it was like on one of the ocean liners that the Kennedys took. And Rose had her own bedroom that was kind of just this austere convent like room. And it reminds me a lot of. I don't know if anybody. I don't know if this is gonna relate to anybody who isn't Catholic, but if you've ever seen like, I've never like been inside a priest's quarters. Wow. I know that this is gonna sound weird, but like you just. Like, when I was a kid, I like peeked inside the. The house, the rectory where the priests live. And it's very sad and austere. It's like a single bed with a white bedspread and one cross on the wall. And that's just kind of how I im. Chose to have lived completely.
- [54:35]
George Severis
And she also, speaking of her secluded quarters, she did have this need to occasionally not be with her family. Like she had this need for solitude and for extended breaks. I mean, at some point in 1923, she took a two month vacation in California with just her sister and left Joe in charge of the five kids at the time. I love that. I mean, it's very, it's very now.
- [55:00]
Julia Claire
Yeah, she had nine kids. She earned it.
- [55:04]
George Severis
It's really. She, you know, it's like a woman that would now write a, a New York Times bestselling memoir about her two month vacation from her kids and how it helped her find herself.
- [55:13]
Julia Claire
Apparently it was her, her Eat, Pray Love.
- [55:15]
George Severis
It was her Eat Pray Love. That's right. After having five kids. Apparently young Jack, young JFK said at the time, gee, you're a great mother to go away and leave your children all alone. So it should be said, you know, we're talking about, we really are falling into the trap of romanticizing Joe in, in some way. It should be repeated, something we have said many times throughout this podcast, that he did lobotomize his daughter. I mean, that it cannot be overstated that, you know, yes, he was an attentive father to some of his children in some ways, but he also did. He was the reason why Rosemary was lobotomized. And this book is interesting because it's sort of. Of lets him off the hook in a way. It's sort. It really like insists that he did it because he thought it was the morally right thing to do. And then it was like a botched operation.
- [56:08]
Julia Claire
I think it was the like approved treatment.
- [56:11]
George Severis
Yes.
- [56:11]
Julia Claire
At the time, for someone like Rosemary who had intellectual disabilities, I. That certainly is a description that contradicts other descriptions that we have seen of this, which is that like, Jo was, some said like kind of, you know, felt that Rosemary was a liability and kind of did this as a way to kind of hastily fix the problem that was Rosemary. And it didn't work completely.
- [56:46]
George Severis
I mean, after it happened, he literally didn't see or speak to her for the rest of her life.
- [56:52]
Julia Claire
For the rest of his life?
- [56:53]
George Severis
Yeah, for the rest of his life. I mean, if it's one thing to make a mistake and to have to live with that, but I mean, I think you can only describe it as cruel to then completely ignore the child that you, whether purposefully or not, kind of incapacitated.
- [57:10]
Julia Claire
And I definitely think that we all know men like, or men and women like this of a certain generation who, you know, there are some people who make a grave mistake like this and spend the rest of their Life atoning and trying to like, right the wrong. And then there are other people who make a grave mistake and just try to keep moving forward and putting it. Put it in their rear view and pretend that it. It hasn't happened. And I think Joe absolutely fell into the latter camp. He doesn't. It didn't seem like he was a particularly introspective person. He was someone who was always moving forward, always wanting to get to the next thing and kind of a. A bulldozer.
- [57:55]
George Severis
Yeah. And this is a ke trait. Like when we interviewed Eileen McNamara about Eunice Kennedy, she had a quote either in her book or in one of the interviews that we read that was like, one thing the Kennedys can't do is introspection and self reflection. Like, it's just like you find entire diaries written by Kennedies and it's descriptions of, you know, their days, their relationships, whatever, but such a lack of self reflection and of like, understanding their own motives and, and, and their own beliefs and questioning things that they think and whatever else. So I think it absolutely is fitting that he was just never able to really grapple with this incredible sin that he committed to one of his own children.
- [58:40]
Julia Claire
And maybe that's part of the overall enduring fascination with the Kennedys, is that we have to keep looking back because they won't.
- [58:51]
George Severis
They completely. Yes, it's very true. Well, no, and there really is just like a, you know, you're so sort of. You're just pummeling forward. Like, it's like. And now here we are, and it's RFK Jr. And it's Jack Schlossberg. And don't look back. Just, you know, I want to be congressman. I want to ban vaccines. Like, it doesn't matter. Let's go.
- [59:11]
Julia Claire
Everybody on board.
- [59:12]
George Severis
Everybody on board. There are two small things I want to mention before we end because we sort of didn't get around to them. One is the whole bootlegger thing. So one of the, I guess, persistent rumors about Joe Kennedy was that he was a bootlegger during prohibition. That is according to the Nassau book, which again, is called Patriarch. Not true. But he did make millions from alcohol. So it's one of these funny things. It's like, well, the rumor is false, but he actually made even more money than the rumor would suggest, just in like, slightly shadier ways. So, I mean, first of all, his father did make money in legal booze. I mean, he was a whiskey importer. He owned saloons and liquor stores, whatever. And then in his time, Joe used his connections with Winston Churchill to secure contracts with British alcohol brands, including Doers and Gordon's Gin after Prohibition. So he then had exclusive deals importing all these British liquor product. So he must have made, I mean, a fort. Imagine, like, Prohibition is over and you're suddenly in charge of Gordon's Gin endures.
- [60:27]
Julia Claire
I know.
- [60:28]
George Severis
And that's not even enough for you. You have to go produce more.
- [60:30]
Julia Claire
I know, I know. And. And also going back to what we were. What we were saying about him being a betting man and him being so good at seeing trends before they happened or just seeing where the winds were blowing when it looked like Prohibition was kind of on the horizon, he invested a lot in glass. Glass bottle manufacturers or glass manufacturers, where their products could be used to make bottles. Because he knew that if Prohibition were passed, that there was going to be a run on glass bottles.
- [61:02]
George Severis
In fact, it's even darker than that because other people were investing in glass bottles. And he actually did a whole pump and dump scheme on a glass company that wasn't producing bottles. He basically, like, invested, like, artificially increased the stock price of this company that was producing glass plates.
- [61:21]
Julia Claire
Yes.
- [61:21]
George Severis
Because he trusted that people that were uneducated would be confused and just be like, well, it's glass. And then basically, like, sold all the stocks and made money from this company that was not doing anything that warranted such a high stock price.
- [61:34]
Julia Claire
So he wasn't a bootlegger. He wasn't a bootlegger, but he was like an evil genius who profited from Prohibition nonetheless.
- [61:43]
George Severis
Yes. No, he. He. Prof. He profited from every chapter of America's relationship to alcohol. Pre prohibition, Prohibition and post prohibition question. I want to just very briefly mention this one anecdote from the Nassau book because apparently he is the one who uncovered this. This was not known before the book. And I think it really feels very relevant to the concerns we have currently in terms of our politics and our relationship to the media, which is the. That. I don't know if you clocked this, Julia, but so there was this guy, this journalist, Arthur Kroc. He was the New York Times bureau chief in Washington. And he was like, one of the biggest, most successful political writers at the time. I mean, everyone read his column. He was like the Washington reporter. And Joe Kennedy puts Arthur Kroc on his payroll as a speechwriter, writer, while he's working as a journalist. So what happens is Kroc writes speeches for Joe Kennedy and then literally writes about those speeches as a political columnist. So he's, like, praising speeches. He himself wrote for Kennedy without disclosing it to anyone. And there's something about that that obviously is so infuriating, but there's also something that's like, okay, well, there's always been this sort of crazy corruption built into American politics. And I don't know, if someone were to tell you that that is something Trump was doing today, we would be like, wow, a break from norms.
- [63:20]
Julia Claire
Well, it is. I mean, it is kind of something that Olivia Nutzi was doing with RFK Jr.
- [63:25]
George Severis
It's so crazy. The parallels. The parallels are so funny. Like, I mean, yes, the. The whole nutsy scandal part of it was that she was basically in some capacity, allegedly secretly advising him during his presidential run while also being herself a star political reporter for New York magazine and even writing a profile of RFK Jr. Himself. But, yeah, I just thought that was such a fascinating little tidbit, and it really is like, the Kennedy way is just like having your fingers in everything and just doing so many things at once that you're sort of hoping no one notices all these little elements of dishonesty and corruption and whatever else.
- [64:12]
Julia Claire
And I think it's funny because, you know, we really haven't seen any of the Kennedys since. Able to capture his business genius. Yeah. And his level of acumen when it came to things like that. And obviously, he set his kids up on a major path to success. But as we talked about on the RK Jr episode, you know, for certain branches of the family, that money did dry up, which does happen.
- [64:45]
George Severis
Something I would really love is, like, an infographic of the Kennedy fortune, in sum, and how much it has, like, and how it has evolved throughout the various generations and throughout the various sort of branches of the family tree. Because now that I know, the 1 billion figure has really rocked me to my core. Now that I know that that's what we're starting with, I'm kind of like, what is happening?
- [65:10]
Julia Claire
Yes, totally. So Joe Kennedy remained kind of almost a daily presence in his children's lives as they themselves ascended to the highest ranks of power. He was in very regular communication with JFK and RFK as they were moving higher and higher in the US Government. He was still kind of, to them, the smartest guy in the room and the person to whom they would confide and ask for advice. Unfortunately, he. In December 1961, so not even a year into JFK's presidency, Joe suffered a massive, debilitating stroke. And it was so consequential that they just assumed he was gonna die. A priest performed last Rites. But he actually lived for another eight years, but he was completely unable to communicate with speech and language. The only thing he could say was no. And so it's kind of. It's really, again, this very tragic end to a man who was, by all account, extremely boisterous and charismatic and able to convince people of things via his personality and his way with words, that he ended his life for almost a full decade unable to communicate.
- [66:48]
George Severis
It's a real operatic life story from beginning to end. I mean, it's. I. And, in fact. I mean, it's not gonna be an opera, but in fact, there is a show starring Michael Fassbender as Joe Kennedy in the works. And I think he's really gonna get. Yeah, he's really gonna get the. I don't know, the sort of, like, presidential biography treatment. Like, I think I. I think it will be interesting to see what they do with, you know, a 700 page.
- [67:17]
Julia Claire
I mean, yeah, he. He was, in so many ways, obviously, he was, like, complicated and kind of evil and. But also just like a very tragic figure. But he seemed, from the jump, he knew that his life was going to be tragic in some way. I think he didn't know. Know how, but he had that kind of Irish Catholic pessimism. And even before his massive stroke, he had already buried two of his children, Joe Jr. Who died in World War II, and then Kathleen Kennedy, who died in a plane crash.
- [67:57]
George Severis
And not to mention, of course, Rosemary's tragic fate and what happened there.
- [68:03]
Julia Claire
But when he, you know, when he was paralyzed and unable to communicate, he had to witness two more of his sons being taken quite violently from the world, and he couldn't express himself about it.
- [68:22]
George Severis
Yeah. There's this passage in the Times review of the. Of the Joe Kennedy biography that I think really sort of says it all, which is, in the end, Joe Kennedy's suspicion that the cosmic deck was stacked against him was weirdly and tragically validated when, in 1969, this vibrantly alive man who, over a lifetime generated more energy than a nuclear reactor, died after eight years as a drooling stroke, afflicted, paralytic, able to utter only one word. No. He had outlived four of his beloved nine children.
- [68:59]
Julia Claire
Yeah.
- [69:00]
George Severis
So I'm looking forward to Michael Fassbender sinking his teeth into this role.
- [69:05]
Julia Claire
It is really fascinating, and I just. I think, you know, as we're nearing our last few episodes of the United States of Kennedy, I think it's really appropriate to kind of end at the beginning. And Jo is really the original tree from which all of the Kennedy fruit has been borne out completely.
- [69:33]
George Severis
And he. And he's just such. He's just full of contradictions and so emblematic of the kind of frustrating and frustratingly opaque sort of Kennedy ethos. I mean, on the one hand, you know, he's a. He's a complete and utter anti Semite and like a shark when it comes to business. On the other hand, he said himself that he wanted to make all this money so that his children could dedicate their lives to public service. You know, on the one hand, he has this chip on his shoulder about assimilating and being on top, but on the other, you know, he has some sort of belief in the act of giving back. I mean, he's obsessed with image, but he also is an incredibly hard worker. It's. He's. He's a biographer's wet dream, really. He is someone that, if you are a historian who wants to write about a complicated white man, you really can't find a better subject.
- [70:34]
Julia Claire
Yeah, and it really. It sounds a little hokey, but his story is so uniquely American. It is just completely. Besides the robber barons and Andrew Carnegie and people like Robert Moses, you're kind of hard pressed to find someone who is more. More emblematic of the particular rising and falling and neuroses of American success than Joe Kennedy.
- [71:06]
George Severis
No, it's crazy. I mean, I can't help but, of course, end on thinking about Trump yet again, because I'm like.
- [71:12]
Julia Claire
I know.
- [71:12]
George Severis
It's almost like Trump is the camp drag version of joke editing. Like, it's like, it's so. It's like. Like it's like he's going through the motions of being a great American man without any of the. Any of the substantial things you have to do to. To be one. And it's. Or maybe it's just a reflection of his time, like, for his time. This is what it takes to be, like, the most famous man in America. And it's emblematic of, like, the 20th century versus the 21st century. Who knows? But we wanted to end on Joe Kennedy. Kennedy, because as Julia said, it's just. It's. It's where all of this. It's where all this came from. It's where the Kennedy ethos came from. And so that's Joe. And we will be back. We will be back next week with the final episode of United States of Kennedy.
- [72:02]
Julia Claire
You guys sad?
- [72:05]
George Severis
We can't get sad yet. We have one more episode. We have one more research doc to read.
- [72:11]
Julia Claire
You're right. You're right. I'll suspend my sadness.
- [72:13]
George Severis
All right, well, we will see you next week, so subscribe and follow to United States of Kennedy for all things Kennedy.
- [72:20]
Julia Claire
Every week, United States of Kennedy is hosted by me, Julia, Claire, and George Severis.
- [72:26]
George Severis
Original music by Joshua Topolsky.
- [72:28]
Julia Claire
Editing by Graham Gibson.
- [72:30]
George Severis
Mixing and mastering by Doug Boehm.
- [72:32]
Julia Claire
Research by Dave Bruce and Austin Thompson.
- [72:35]
George Severis
Our producer is Carmen Laurent.
- [72:37]
Julia Claire
Our executive producer is Jenna Cagle.
- [72:39]
George Severis
Created by Lyra Smith.
- [72:41]
Julia Claire
United States of Kennedy is a production of iHeart podcasts. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.