The Rise of RFK Jr.

Summary

---

United States of Kennedy

Episode: The Rise of RFK Jr.

Hosts: George Civeris & Julia Claire
Date: March 30, 2026

---

Episode Overview

This episode of United States of Kennedy sees hosts George Civeris and Julia Claire deliver a thorough, deeply critical examination of Robert F. Kennedy Jr.’s life and rise to (infamous) prominence. The discussion traces RFK Jr.'s path from a troubled Kennedy scion—enmeshed in family privilege, addiction, and scandals—to the nation’s leading anti-vaccine activist and ultimately, to a position of major power as the United States Secretary of Health and Human Services under President Trump. The hosts dismantle the myth that RFK Jr. was once “normal” and became radical only recently, arguing that his problematic traits and actions have been present throughout his life and represent a continuation—rather than an aberration—of Kennedy family dynamics.

Also covered: how the Kennedy mystique continues to influence public perception, particularly through pop culture phenomena like "Love Story", and the surprising political emergence of Jack Schlossberg, JFK’s grandson.

---

Key Themes & Topics

The Kennedy Legacy in the News (03:03)

• Confluence of Kennedy Storylines:
  • "Love Story" TV series is a TikTok favorite, introducing a new generation to Kennedy mythology.
  • Jack Schlossberg’s surprising success in his Congressional run—boosted both by opposition to RFK Jr. and by pop-culture buzz.
  • RFK Jr.’s controversial and destructive tenure as America’s top health official.

Jack Schlossberg and the Shadow of RFK Jr. (04:55–13:30)

• Jack as the Anti-RFK Jr.:
  • Schlossberg defines himself in opposition to his cousin RFK Jr., positioning himself as “the Mario to RFK Jr.’s Wario.”
    • “He is going to kind of position himself as the anti RFK junior—as the Mario to RFK Junior’s Wario...” – Julia (08:10)
  • His campaign lacks a distinct message beyond “Believe in something again.”
  • Success is buoyed by:
    • The “shiny veneer” of the Kennedy name in NY-12, a district enthralled with Camelot nostalgia.
    • Older, liberal Manhattan voters enamored by his youthful image and Kennedy lineage.
  • Strategy mirrors Democratic habit of defining themselves against a “bad” counterpart (here his literal cousin).
  • Critique: The dichotomy is shallow; Jack is a party insider endorsed by Nancy Pelosi rather than a true reformer.

RFK Jr.’s Path to Power and Infamy (15:16–79:38)

Early Life & Family Trauma (26:54–31:14)

• Witnessed his father’s assassination at age fourteen, widely cited as the start of his troubles.
• Expelled from multiple boarding schools; ringleader of the “Hyannis Port Terrors,” notorious for vandalism, theft, and drugs.
• Early criminal incidents, including spitting ice cream at a police officer (29:38).

Addictions & Early Notoriety (34:22–46:02)

• Serious addiction to drugs, notably heroin; led other siblings into drug abuse—one brother died from an overdose.
• “For his whole life, [RFK Jr.] wanted power and influence and followers and kind of goes wherever the wind takes him.” – Julia (51:53)
• Managed to redeem himself in the public eye through environmental activism, starting with court-mandated community service (46:02).

Environmental Law & Public Image Contradictions (47:05–64:58)

• Work with Riverkeeper started via court-mandated service.
• Reputation as a passionate environmentalist is questioned; behavior often self-serving rather than altruistically green.
• Pattern of animal abuse: blending live animals to feed hawks as a child; bizarre incidents like carrying bear carcasses and decapitating a beached whale.
  • “He once brought a chainsaw to the beach and cut the head off of a beached whale.” – George (57:11)

Relationships, Personal Controversies & Sex Scandals (38:42–50:50)

• Detailed accounts of abusive and predatory behavior towards women.
• Public and private conduct rife with infidelity, manipulative treatment, and misogyny.
• Ex-wife Mary Richardson’s suicide and subsequent wrongful death lawsuit allegations (70:08).

The Turn to Health Misinformation and Anti-Vaccine Crusading (60:01–64:58; 16:10–17:35)

• Key moment: 2005 “Deadly Immunity” article set the stage for modern anti-vax movement.
  • Rolling Stone and Salon eventually retracted the article after realizing its harm.
• Grew Children’s Health Defense into a multimillion-dollar machine by playing on Kennedy name and anti-Big Pharma sentiment.
• Actively courted a cult-like following and appropriated health-based pseudo-science, often shown to be misleading or outright false.

Pattern of Grift, Narcissism, and Cult Leadership

• “He wants money, power, and status. That's just... the long and the short of it. And he's gotten all of it. And look at what the rest of us have now.” – Julia (73:32)
• Caroline Kennedy’s infamously public Senate letter describes him as charismatic, manipulative, and addicted to attention (53:06).
  • “It’s no surprise that he keeps birds of prey as pets, because he himself is a predator... addicted to attention.” – Caroline Kennedy (letter, 53:06)

Health and Personal Eccentricity

• Notable for unusual medical events: notably, a “brain worm” misdiagnosed as a tumor.
• Developed spasmodic dysphonia; often weaponized his medical issues to support anti-vaccine claims (50:51).

The Broader Kennedy Pattern & Mythology (23:04–25:40; 74:11–75:25)

• RFK Jr.'s behavior is not an anomaly, but rather a product and continuation of patterns—privilege, impunity, manipulation, and familial protection—that span the Kennedy dynasty.
  • “The more you learn about this family, the more you’re just like, oh, no, we shouldn’t be thinking of them in the way that we do collectively as Americans.” – Julia (23:50)
• The myth of Kennedy exceptionalism as cover for serious personal and institutional failings.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Kennedy Brand and Name:
  • “If there were ever a district where people are going to be blinded by the shiny veneer of the Kennedy name, it is this one.” – Julia (07:22)
• On RFK Jr. as the End Point of Kennedy Traits:
  • “RFK Jr is the logical endpoint of this constellation of traits that has made up the Kennedy family for generations now.” – Julia (39:53)
• Caroline Kennedy’s Senate Letter, Re: Birds and Predators:
  • “It’s no surprise he keeps birds of prey as pets, because he himself is a predator.” – Caroline (53:06)
• On the Power of Confident Misinformation:
  • “There was something about seeing someone state something so confidently and even hedging it... you sort of, I see how people can fall down that rabbit hole, because he really does sound very confident.” – George (37:23)
• On the Myth of the ‘Normal’ RFK Jr.:
  • “He absolutely has worm-related brain damage. But I mean, the brain worm died because he couldn’t—there was nothing left up there to begin with.” – Julia (75:25)
• On Vaccine Misinformation and Cult Leadership:
  • “He wants to have cult leader status. And he’s courted that for most of his life. And this is the issue that has provided him with that platform...” – Julia (55:07)

---

Timeline of Key Events (with Timestamps)

• Jack Schlossberg’s Campaign and Entanglement with Kennedy Mythology: (04:43–15:16)
• RFK Jr. Early Life, Loss, and Descent: (26:54–34:44)
• Addiction, ‘Bad Boy’ Reputation, and Family Influence: (34:44–46:02)
• Riverkeeper, Environmental Activism, and Self-Serving Motives: (46:02–51:52)
• Sexual Misconduct and Animal Abuse: (38:42–59:17)
• Rolling Stone’s Deadly Immunity Article and Vaccine Movement: (60:01–64:10)
• Personal Life: Brain Worm, Marriages, Mary Richardson’s Suicide: (69:09–70:52)
• Tragic Kennedy Patterns—Addiction, Scandals, and Abuse of Privilege: (72:12–75:25)
• Final Assessment & Dismantling the ‘Normal RFK’ Myth: (74:55–79:13)
• RFK Jr.’s Contempt for People With Autism: (78:25–79:13)

---

Takeaways & Analysis

• Dismantling the RFK Jr. Myth:
  The episode provides overwhelming evidence that RFK Jr.’s current high-profile, destructive role is not a shocking deviation from his past, but a culmination of deep-seated personal flaws, family patterns, and privilege unchecked for decades.
• The Dangers of Charisma and Legacy:
  Kennedy charm, confidence, and name have allowed RFK Jr. to escape consequences and sway large numbers of people—regardless of expertise or fact—whether in environmental activism, personal relationships, or public health disinformation.
• Concern About His Power:
  The hosts express alarm and exasperation that such a person not only commands a following but wields actual political and institutional power: “Not often that you’re faced with something that truly feels like pure evil... But luckily he is in control of our healthcare.” – George (74:11)
• The Importance of Critical Histories:
  Julia and George persistently argue for an honest reckoning—not just with the Kennedy family’s mythology, but with the mechanisms of American culture that keep re-empowering it.

---

Additional Resources & Further Listening

• Past Episodes:

  • Deep dives on the Cuban Missile Crisis, Carolyn Bessette, JFK Jr., and conspiracy theories (referenced at 04:03 & throughout).
  • September 29 episode with Julie Rovner (KFF Health News) on RFK Jr.’s anti-vax rise (16:10).

• Documentary Recommendation:

  • PBS Frontline: The Rise of RFK Jr. (“...if you want sort of two full hours of more detailed historical context, I really recommend it.” – George, 75:59)

---

This episode provides essential context for understanding not just RFK Jr. as a political figure, but the ongoing perils and peculiarities of the Kennedy legend in the American psyche—serving as both an exposé and an urgent call for demythologizing American royalty.

---

Transcript

[Commercial Announcer]

Springfest means more sun, more fun, and more free at Lowe's. Keep your yard in line with an additional free EGO 56 volt battery when you buy a select Ego mower trimmer or blower. Plus, keep landscaping fresh with Stay Green. 1 cubic foot garden soil 5 bags for $10. Our best lineup is here at Lowe's, valid through 4A while supplies last selection varies by location. Soil offer excludes Alaska and Hawaii.

[Jana Kramer]

This week on a special episode of WebMD's Health Discovered podcast, we're taking a closer look at a common form of lung cancer that accounts for 85% of all cases.

[Julia Claire]

When I first heard the words you

[Kohler Ambassador]

have lung cancer, I was in shock.

[Jana Kramer]

It's a diagnosis that changes everything. So what does it really mean to advocate for yourself when you're living with non small cell lung cancer? Listen to Health discovered on the iHeartRadio

[George Severis]

app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jana Kramer]

This is Jana Kramer from Wind down with Jana Kramer. Instead of giving your mom something that fades, give her something that becomes part of her home this Mother's Day. The Lenox Spice Village is a set of 24 hand painted little houses that are actually spice jars, perfect for anyone who loves to cook, entertain or enjoy the little details that make everyday life special. As a mom, I love G that help turn ordinary moments into memories. Charming, timeless and meant to be used, this is one of those pieces she'll treasure, and once you see it, you'll want it for your own home too. Find the full [e-mail] SpiceVillage Amazon presents

[Commercial Announcer]

Laura vs Fruit Flies hide your bananas. These winged demons came to your kitchen to do two things. Eat fruit and and they're all out of fruit. But thankfully, Laura shopped on Amazon and saved on cleaning spray, countertop wipes and fly traps. Hey fruit flies, your baby boom ends here. Save the everyday with Amazon.

[Kohler Ambassador]

When Kohler, global design leader in luxurious kitchen and bath products, asked me to be their ambassador for timeless, elegant, durable cast iron, I said, I'm in. Soon after, I was in their Kohler, Wisconsin foundry watching molten iron, poured enamel applied by hand and the beautiful finished pieces ready to ship. Since 1883, Kohler cast iron has been crafted by incredible artisans and seeing it firsthand gave me a whole new appreciation for their craftsmanship. Now I'm proud to lend my stamp of approval to my favorite Kohler cast iron products for their durability, beauty and enduring style. Shop my curated [e-mail] as the Kohler cast Iron Ambassador, I say long Live cast iron.

[George Severis]

I'm George Severis.

[Julia Claire]

And I'm Julia Claire.

[George Severis]

And this is United States of Kennedy, a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. Every week we go into one aspect of the Kennedy story, and today, you know, in light of love story ending, the finale has at this point aired. We are recording live mere hours before it airs.

[Julia Claire]

Oh, my gosh.

[George Severis]

And despite being Kennedy influencers ourselves, we don't have special, special screeners of the television series.

[Julia Claire]

And when we tell you we tried so hard to get the screeners so

[George Severis]

hard, FX and Disney said, no, none for you.

[Julia Claire]

We took this all the way up to the top of iheart and we could not get screeners to save our fucking lives.

[George Severis]

I'm personally emailing Bob Iger daily. I'm saying, Bob, Bob, level with me here.

[Julia Claire]

Bob, it's George again.

[George Severis]

It's George. We promise we will only do positive coverage of your big show, but we were sort of thinking, you know, we have three episodes left of this show. We have to talk about everything from the Cuban missile crisis to. To Carolyn Bissette to Taylor Swift somehow to the film Blonde, you know, JFK assassination, conspiracy theories. And we were like, what loose ends do we have to tie up? Like, what can we talk about the last three episodes? What is in the news and the three big things, as always, over the last few weeks and months, the three big things in the news are, of course, Love Story, TikTok's favorite show.

[Julia Claire]

Yes.

[George Severis]

Jack Schlossberg's congressional run and RFK Jr's continued sheer excellence as a government official and health care destroyer.

[Julia Claire]

Yes. He's doing so well that they're saying, you know what? Maybe do it forever.

[George Severis]

Maybe we'll embalm you rumors of a lifetime appointment for RFK Jr. And all

[Julia Claire]

of these three elements converge, and they all are interconnected. And that's the kind of the crux of what we want to talk about today. Because there is no Jack Schlossberg congressional campaign without RFK Jr and Love Story intersects with that as well.

[George Severis]

Well, weirdly, it's. Jack Schlossberg is actually the one benefiting the most from all of this. Because what I don't think I realized until Julia articulated it off mic is his congressional campaign, which initially to me seemed so kind of dead on arrival, is actually going relatively well. He's pulling better than expected. Nancy Pelosi has endorsed him. And it seems like two things that have helped him are A, him defining himself in opposition to RFK Jr and B, I mean, this is I don't know. Conjecture. But I think just like the buzziness around the Kennedy name, especially among young people from Love Story, has sort of trickled into. Into his reputation.

[Julia Claire]

And the latter especially makes sense, because if you squint really hard at Jack Schlossberg, you could be like, hey, that's vaguely JFK Jr. S head shape.

[George Severis]

And even when you're watching the show, you know, you're meeting Caroline Kennedy, who is his mom, you're meeting her husband, and his. His last name, Schlossberg, is mentioned, and you're like, oh, I see, that's where Jack Schlossberg came from. And so I think it just served to sort of introduce a new generation to the Kennedy mythology, regardless of how well they're portrayed.

[Julia Claire]

I mean, he is a New York Kennedy who vaguely looks like JFK Jr and is running in Manhattan like he's. He's got the wind at his back. And as of recording this, he is polling in first, which, again, George and I can't understand it.

[George Severis]

But listen, I'm no political expert. I think, is there a chance that I'm completely proven wrong and he takes it? Sure. I've been wrong about pretty much every election over the last 10 years.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah.

[George Severis]

But I do suspect that some of this is just sort of like beginner's luck, shall we say? And. And kind of name recognition, especially in the district he's in, which is such. Which is all like, rich Manhattanites.

[Julia Claire]

Right. They love the Kennedys. They long for the days of Camelot. Like, if there were. George and I have said this before, but if there were ever a district where people are going to be blinded by the. The shiny veneer of the Kennedy name, it is this one. It is. It is New York 12.

[George Severis]

But again, there haven't been any debates yet. There haven't. He hasn't really had to answer for some of his, you know, for just, like, what his vision is going to be and. And. And whatever else.

[Julia Claire]

But George's vision is believe in something again.

[George Severis]

That's right. His vision is believe in something again. That is his campaign slogan, and he has explained multiple times that what it means is believe in something again. Your campaign slogan is believe in something again. What do you mean? Well, believe in something again.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah. And what aren't you understanding? So George and I have talked about, you know, at the very nascent stages of his campaign, how it seemed like it was kind of rudderless, it didn't really have anything to say, appeared to be lacking any sort of cogent strategy. And I Think what I've noticed in following the coverage over the last month or so is that a sort of strategy seems to have emerged, which is that he is going to bring up or talk about RFK Jr in every single interview, and he is going to kind of position himself as the anti RFK junior as the Mario to RFK Juniors Wario, which, yes, I did just come up with now on the fly. I'm a generational talent, but I think that as far as political strategies go, there are worse ones. Like RFK Jr is a menace and he is an objectively destructive force in America right now. He is the highest ranking health official in the United States. So I think, you know, if you're a member of his own family, it makes sense as a, as a political strategy. Do I think that Jack Schlossberg has that much else to say? No. But people are buying what he's selling right now. He is, as we said, he's pulling in first, which is crazy because there are much more experienced people in his primary. But that has never stopped a Kennedy from winning.

[George Severis]

The other thing that he's doing is kind of taking on the mantle of being a young person, explaining to old people why they have not been winning over young people and why, like he's talking about, like Trump won over young people that felt the solution of the political system because Democrats, you know, didn't. Because Democrats are like a gerontocracy. And I think that works if you are talking to old people that don't know any young people or that don't understand any young people. I don't think his messaging would work if he was in a room with people that were his age. But I think, because, you know, the people he's trying to win over are sort of like very concerned older liberals that go to the Lincoln center and see the New York Philharmonic. They're kind of like this handsome young man has a lot to say.

[Julia Claire]

Anyways, I'll see you at the Metropolitan Opera.

[George Severis]

Exactly.

[Julia Claire]

No, I think that's. I think that's exactly right. And it's funny because recently he did an interview with Fortune magazine and he talked about how Democrats have lost to young men. And he is, you know, like so many people, a better diagnostician than he is a surgeon. He is basically talking about how he quit the Biden campaign because he wasn't able to be fully himself. And he thinks that this is the reason why, you know, the Democratic Party has lost a lot of young people because it doesn't let people be their authentic selves and he actually gave a lot of praise to President Trump saying that he was able to like meet young men where they are. I don't think Trump is doing anything that intentionally, but I mean, the proof is, is in the pudding. The, the problem is that the young man that the Democratic Party has lost, I don't think would be at all moved by Jack Schlossberg, an Upper east side, like quadruple Ivy League educated.

[George Severis]

I mean, it's also, you can'. You can't be making the argument that you're the solution for the Democrats that have lost young people. When you are endorsed by Nancy Pelosi and literally like beloved among party leadership, it seems you sort of just can't, you can't have it both ways. But, you know, we'll see how it goes. But I do think the, the strategy of defining himself against RFK Jr. Is sort of an interesting one. It's sort of another flavor of the general Democratic impulse to define themselves against Donald Trump. I mean, for so long what we've been hearing is that the Democrats big problem is that they are not offering an alternative. They're simply saying we are not Trump. And he's basically doing that, but doing it with like a Kennedy twist, which is, he's, he has the perfect foil, which is his literal cousin.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah.

[George Severis]

And he is able to say, you know, look, this is the bad one and I am the good one.

[Julia Claire]

And to that point, I mean, that actually has been a successful strategy in congressional races and in some cases in Senate races. So like lower like state level races, that actually has been a successful strategy for Democrats. So I mean, and it's the district that he is in is so blue that this will not, this will never be totally held by a Republican. All he has to win is the primary. So maybe. And again, the constituent base that he is trying to get to elect him is very persuaded by this argument. So I'm sure that it will be successful for him. I can totally see him getting elected, especially now. I'm again, I continue to be shocked, but I shouldn't be that he is. He has been pulling in first basically since the first polling data has been available. Yeah, good luck to him. I don't know that he is what the Democratic Party needs right now.

[George Severis]

You know, it's funny because I wish I had super strong opinions about this. Ultimately, he, I'm not excited. I, first of all, I don't live in his district, so it's none of my business. But even if I did, I would certainly not be excited to vote for him. But there are also such bigger evils in politics right now that I'm kind of like, I don't know, he's sort of just like a random. Not random, obviously, but he's just like a rich kid that has political aspirations. He sort of believes it's his birthright to do it.

[Julia Claire]

Oh, he absolutely believes it's his birthright. And that is why he's like such a Kennedy.

[George Severis]

Yeah, exactly. So obviously I, I roll my eyes at him and I can't believe we're back here again debating whether or not, like another unqualified, you know, use this word, nepo baby deserves to be in government. But, you know, in a world where the RFK juniors of the world are doing so much more harm, you know, it's tough to, it's tough to really get excited about being anti Jack Schlossberg.

[Julia Claire]

And again, we have talked about how much he hates FX's love story, but, yeah, from all accounts, it seems that the show has done nothing but help him.

[George Severis]

Right. I mean, it's certainly, it's also like, because it's the number one show in fx, but also just like the. One of the most talked about shows. Anytime he is asked about it and he says something, even if it's neutral or negative, it does get him headlines. It does remind people who he is. It reminds people that there is, oh, you like this handsome young Kennedy. Well, there's one that is actually alive now, and that's the same age as the one portrayed on that TV show. So a sort of rising tide lifts all boats situation.

[Julia Claire]

But yeah, and he's been doing a lot of national press because of the show, because he wants to, like, respond to the show, which only helps his name recognition further.

[George Severis]

So in terms of the RFK Jr. Of it all, we kind of realized when we were thinking about what we wanted to talk about over the last three episodes, that RFK Jr. Does come up a lot in passing. I mean, he is sort of the elephant in the room with a lot of this stuff because he is currently by far the Kennedy that holds the most power in our current, you know, political system. And we have dedicated an episode to him before. If you go Back to the September 29 episode, we talked to Julie Rovner from KFF Health News, and that was very much specifically about RFKJR's kind of path to essentially anti vaccine activism and how he became the face of it. His obsession with the alleged connection that has been debunked many times between vaccines and autism. And it was sort of about how dangerous it is for him to be in a position of power at the Department of Health. I mean, I remember when he was originally, when Congress was was voting to confirm him, there was some letter signed by, I don't know, hundreds or thousands of doctors or something that said that putting him in charge would be like putting a flat earther in charge of NASA. And so we talked a little, we talked about that. That was the focus of that episode. And while it was tied to the a specific news item at the time, which is his kind of befuddling press conference about how he thought Tylenol or Advil Tylenol. Tylenol should not be abused as much because or should not be used by pregnant women. What was that? What was the announcement?

[Julia Claire]

He said that Tylenol, which is really the only pain reliever and fever reducer that is pregnancy safe. He said that that should not be used by pregnant women based on nothing because he said that it also causes autism. He keeps kind of amassing a team of, I don't know, Pokemon that he believes cause autism and just putting it out there with no, with no nothing. We'll be back with more United States of Kennedy after this break.

[Jana Kramer]

This is Jana Kramer from Wind down with Jana Kramer. Instead of giving your mom something that fades, give her something that becomes part of her home this Mother's Day. The Lenox Spice Village is a set of 24 hand painted little houses that are actually spice jars, perfect for anyone who loves to cook, entertain or enjoy the little details that make everyday life special. As a mom, I love gifts that help turn ordinary moments into memories and charming, timeless and meant to be used. This is one of those pieces she'll treasure and once you see it, you'll want it for your own home too. Find the full [e-mail] SpiceVillage support for

[Commercial Announcer]

the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI. It all starts with with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year. You can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1 bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures [e-mail] disclosures if you're looking

[Klarna Advertiser]

for more flexibility in how you pay for everyday purchases, meet Klarna. Klarna lets you decide whether to pay now, pay later, or spread payments over time. All managed right in the Klarna app. Download the Klarna app today or visit klarna.com to learn more. Terms Apply California Resident Loans made or arranged pursuant to a California Finance Law License NMLS Number 1353190 Klarna Balance Account required to be eligible for cashback points. Limitations, Terms and conditions apply.

[Redfin Advertiser]

Let's talk about modern home shopping. It's sort of become a fun side hobby, right? Scrolling listings at night, dreaming about kitchens you've never seen or backyards you haven't even stepped foot in. All from the comfort of pretty much anywhere. Redfin knows a lot of people like you want to own but are stuck in this browsing mode loop. That's where Redfin flips the script with listings that update within minutes and tours you can book right from the Redfin app. You can see your dream home the moment it appears. Now, liking a listing is easy, but actually landing it? That's where Redfin comes in. Redfin has over 2200 agents with local expertise, and Redfin agents close twice as many deals as other agents. That means they want to help you win, not just window shop. Redfin is built to help you go from just looking to wait. This could actually be home. So become the newest neighbor on the block. Visit redfin.com to start finding and start owning. That's redfin.com this is Andrea Gunning from Betrayal.

[Sonesta Advertiser]

Find home wherever you roam at Sinesta Es and Simply Suites, where longer stays feel comfortable, flexible and easy. Stretch out and enjoy spacious accommodations and homelike amenities designed to help you settle in and stay productive or relaxed for however long you need. And when you're a Sonesta Travel Pass member, staying at Sonesta Es and Simply Suites means earning points towards free nights, upgrades and more with every eligible stay. Go to Sonesta.com to book your stay and unlock the best rates with Sonessa Travel Pass here today, Rome tomorrow. Join [e-mail] Terms and conditions apply.

[Julia Claire]

And we're back with more United States of Kennedy.

[George Severis]

So at the time that announcement kind of broke through in this both in a serious way. It was obviously a big news story, but also even just on the Internet, it became a meme because there was a screenshot of, you know, giant letters on some cable news show that just said autism announcement with A photo of RFK Jr. And Donald Trump. And so people then would repurpose that to various humorous ends. So we did talk about his, his journey with like health misinformation, with anti vaccine activism, et cetera. And we have, you know, on and off talked about his performance in, in the Trump administration. But something we haven't really done is gone back and looked at his pre Trump and pre politics life. And there are certain, there are certain things you hear people say. I mean, Julia, you were saying that often you will hear people say, you know, he used to be normal. What happened? You know, he, he used to be an environmental lawyer, like, you know, something that sounds very kind of commendable. And he used to, of course, be a Democrat. He is, you know, he has been married to Cheryl Hines, who's like kind of a middle brow Hollywood actress. And he's like going to parties with Larry David and he, you know, lives in la. So that was one thing we wanted to investigate is like, how, how true is it that quote, unquote, he used to be normal.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah.

[George Severis]

And then he is one of these people that like comes up in kind of dark ways when we talk about some of the other Kennedys. Like there was a, even when we talked about Eunice Kennedy, there was something we read about how she like didn't allow her kids to hang out with Bobby's kids and especially Bobby Jr. Because they were always getting into trouble. You know, there's the whole sort of tragedy of his, his wife before Cheryl Hines committing suicide. And that's something that sort of is not mentioned because it's like the sixth alarming thing about him. And so we kind of wanted to do a sort of deep dive into RFKJR's life before this current crazy chapter.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah, I think that's, that's all so well said. And I think a big project of ours that we, you and me, George, that we didn't really like set out to embark upon is kind of lifting the veil on the Kennedy myth. I think the more you learn about this family, the more you're just like, oh, no, we shouldn't be thinking of them in the way that we do collectively as Americans. And I think there's kind of no better case story for that than RFK Jr. Definitely.

[George Severis]

And I think so much of the way RFK Jr is talked about actually serves to perpetuate the Kennedy mythology because everyone always talks about him as this crazy exception.

[Julia Claire]

It's like, yeah, as if he is an anomaly.

[George Severis]

Yes. It's always like he is the evil one. How could this happen? How could America's greatest family produce someone who is so, you know, immoral? And it's. I mean, I do think he is one of the more unethical Kennedies. And, and I. I certainly think when we look back on the. The legacy of various Kennedys, he's going to be up there as one of the worst ones. But it is interesting when you think about, you know, some we have talked about on this podcast, whether it is Joe Kennedy, you know, lobotomizing his daughter Rosemary, partly because she was getting in the way of his son's political careers, or whether it is, you know, JFK himself signing off on the surveillance of civil rights figures. Whatever. There are many, many sins the Kennedys have committed that are conveniently left out when we talk about how they are such a great family that I just committed their entire, you know, all their lives to public service.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah, it's funny. And actually this kind of comes back to the first episode that I did before I was co host of United States of Kennedy. We talked about the movie Bobby, which is about, obviously, Bobby Sr.

[George Severis]

Speaking of Bobby's assassination, which I think is actually a great place to start in terms of RFK Jr's life because in so many ways, that was the first incredibly traumatic thing that happened to him.

[Julia Claire]

Yes.

[George Severis]

But I'm just thinking about all the times he has come up in other episodes. There was one episode that I think you were away for where we talked about conspiracy theories around Bobby Kennedy's assassination. And in fact, he has been very outspoken about how he thinks there has been some. That the mainstream theory about Sirhan Sirhan acting alone is incorrect. Anyway, regardless. So I think something we can start with is our wonderful researchers put together a timeline of RFK Jr. S life that is rife with controversies that you cannot even begin to imagine. And so I think we can kind of start there and then, Julia, I will hand it off to you because you have. You have unfortunately dedicated many more hours of your life to doing RFK junior research for another project.

[Julia Claire]

I wish I could forget all that I know about this man.

[George Severis]

All right, so in 1968, of course, RFK Jr. S father is assassinated. Bobby Kennedy is assassinated in Los Angeles. We also have done an episode on that. If you want more information there, and if you want a completely sort of kind of Oscar y cheesy movie about it, you can always check out the film Bobby, which we've also done an episode about. Next thing on this timeline is 1969. On July 4th, Independence Day, RFK Jr takes LSD and has a trip.

[Julia Claire]

Wow.

[George Severis]

And congratulations to the whole team there.

[Julia Claire]

Yes. And RFK Jr. Was, we should say he was the third of 11 children, which is too many.

[George Severis]

And you say that as a Catholic.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah, and I say that as a Catholic. And I know that I will be receiving a note scorning me from the Vatican. But yes, he was 14, I believe, when his father was assassinated. Obviously, that's an incredibly difficult time for any kid when you're 14. It's the worst time. So to have something as traumatic as that happen at such a young age, I can only imagine was completely catastrophic for him personally. And it is where most people, most biographers, most people who have looked into him cite as kind of like the beginning of his troubles.

[George Severis]

We should say just very quickly, while we're still on the topic of Bobby's assassination. I mentioned before that RFK Jr himself, it's complicated to keep talking about Bobby and Bobby Jr. Maybe I'll call him Bobby Jr. I mentioned before that Bobby Jr. Himself has always believed that there was something being hidden in the official story of the assassination of his father. Just very quickly. Specifically, in a 2012 letter to Attorney General Eric Holder, Bobby Jr. And Paul Schraed outlined the evidence against Sirhan being the lone gunman and requested that the case be reopened. And Even better, Bobby Jr. And Schrade said they knew who the second gunman was. But that comes later. For now, we are in 1970. This is where he starts, you know, post post, his first acid trip. This is where his kind of reputation as a bad boy really gets going. I mean, he was asked to leave or expelled, you know, depending on who you ask, from two different boarding schools. According to past guest Eileen McNamara, he was the ringleader of the Hyannis Port Terrors, who were a group of of teens who vandalized cars, stole boats and did drugs.

[Julia Claire]

Incredible name, by the way. Highness Poor Terrors.

[George Severis]

It's an incredible name. On August 5, again, 1970, he is put on a year's probation. A year later, almost exactly a year later, he is Arrested again for spitting ice cream into a police officer's face. Kennedy claimed that the officer was lying about the encounter. But he eventually did change his story.

[Julia Claire]

What an incredible feat to make a police officer the sympathetic one in this. In this situation.

[George Severis]

Yeah, you can't go around spitting ice cream in police officer's face, although I guess we don't know the context. And then according to his memoirs, in late 1971, he starts becoming seriously addicted to drugs, and he's basically still a kid.

[Julia Claire]

And when you're a Kennedy, you're a kid until you're at least 45.

[George Severis]

That's exactly right. And that's why Jack Schlossberg is actually should not be allowed to run for office because he's so spiritually 14. In 1973, he goes on a whitewater rafting trip to South America, where he got shot at by a Chilean soldier near the border with Argentina. He later wrote an article for the Atlantic about chile. Then in 1974, he goes back to South America. In the book the Kennedys, An American Drama, he claimed that they were attacked by some native peoples and that they responded by throwing dynamite. But then a recent Huffington Post article makes the case that Bobby Jr. Exaggerated what happened in order to burnish his credentials for future prominence. Well, mission accomplished. And then 1976, Kennedy graduates Harvard.

[Julia Claire]

Now, I mean, you might be saying to yourself, graduating from Harvard, didn't you just say that he was expelled from multiple boarding schools? It simply doesn't matter. I think the whole thing about, like, public office and public prominence being his birthright, I think there's just like a whole host of things. I think especially if you, you grow up in, like, New England, you're just like, yeah, well, there's at least a few congressional seats that are designated for members of the Kennedy family. And there are just also certain families where no matter how up their kids are, they will be admitted to every Ivy League school. And it's a great system, is what I'm saying.

[George Severis]

No, it's a great system. I wouldn't change a thing.

[Julia Claire]

I wouldn't change it. Now.

[George Severis]

This is sort of going into his kind of progressive bona fides because something people say is like, how can he work for Trump when he used to be a Democrat? And regardless of what you think about the Kennedys, their reputation politically is as, yes, you know, basically like center left

[Julia Claire]

liberals, establishment Democrats, Democrats. They are the establishment.

[George Severis]

Regardless of his personal behavior and whether or not he was doing drugs or spitting ice cream at police officers. When you look at his academic Work at Harvard, his early career. It very much is what you would expect out of a Kennedy, maybe the bad boy of the Kennedy family. I mean, 1978, he publishes a book on Alabama judge Frank Johnson, who is a major figure in the civil rights movement. The book emerged from his Harvard thesis and it did well. In 1980, he stumps for his uncle's contest against Carter for the Democratic nomination for president. Obviously Carter would win. As part of that, he's spends time in Alabama because he knew the state when working on his book. I mean, he's writing a book about a civil rights figure. He is stumping for a Democratic candidate. Obviously it is someone who he is related to. He stumps with. Oh, God, Cesar Chavez, who. That is something we can't get into with the recent news, but at the time, obviously a darling of the progressive movement. And in 1981, he chases down a pickpocket from the Manhattan subway to Bloomingdale's. So suddenly, suddenly he's anti crime, which is one of his first big flip flops.

[Julia Claire]

Vigilante folk hero.

[George Severis]

In 1982, he graduates from the University of Virginia Law School and starts work as assistant District attorney in Manhattan. He also gets married and fails the bar exam. Okay, so already we are seeing. We're seeing connections with JFK junior With JFK junior With famously. Yes. That famous Daily News or. Or Page Six or National Enquirer cover. The hunk flunks. One of the best. One of the best coverheads.

[Julia Claire]

That's gotta be the Post. I don't know for sure, but it's gotta be the New York Post. They love to do a little wordplay. And just a note on University of Virginia Law School. That is where his father went as well. So he is like pretty intentionally, you know, obviously he is Bobby Sr's namesake. He is kind of trying to position himself directly in his father's shadow, even more so than he already is by birth.

[George Severis]

I will say in his defense, he did pass the bar exam the following year. I'm sort of skimming through the rest of this. There is some drama. This is from a book, the Kennedy's An American drama. On August 3, he was traveling to Rapid City, South Dakota, when he went to the toilet. The door swung open and he was, quote, sitting in stocking feet on the lid of the toilet, asking for help.

[Julia Claire]

That's. Well, that's when he was found with heroin, right?

[George Severis]

That's right. And it seems like that book is the only one that has that, that has that version of the story. The more Common contemporary story is that he became sick on a flight to Rapid City, possibly to go to a treatment center, and police found heroin in his bag. So, Julia, you. I sort of alluded to this before, but in the previous. In a previous role, you used to work on the cricket podcast Hysteria. And you guys would do this series called this Fucking Guy about, you know, guys that are making America worse, for lack of a better description.

[Julia Claire]

And Guy. Guy is gender neutral. Guy is.

[George Severis]

That's right. Of course. We're inclusive here.

[Julia Claire]

We're inclusive.

[George Severis]

And you did do an episode on RFK junior And so much more than I am. You are very well versed in his history, unfortunately. I'm wondering what are the things that you remember from. From all that research and what sort of stuff surprised you?

[Julia Claire]

So I think at first blush, my surprise was how long he has kind of conned the American public into thinking that he is a serious person. It's no failing of Americans, I guess. He is an extremely confident person. He, regardless of what he's talking about and how much he does or does not know about it, he speaks with a professorial level of certainty about everything. And we'll get into his work in Riverkeeper later. But when he was kind of big in the environmental movement, his sister Rory Kennedy was doing a documentary about the Hudson river cleanup and about kind of like different environmental disasters in the area. And she told producers, she produces with hbo and she told producers, you have to fact check everything my brother says. She wanted them to. I mean, obviously he was like a big name and he was a big get, but she was like, he's gonna sound like he's the smartest person in the room, but a lot of times he makes stuff up.

[George Severis]

I mean, a good example of that is a clip that you introduced me to is him on Joe Rogan saying that the Spanish.

[Julia Claire]

The Spanish flu, which killed.

[George Severis]

Caused by vaccines, Right. Which they did not have at the time.

[Julia Claire]

The Spanish flu of 1918. He said that there is good evidence, not definitive, but there is good evidence that it was a vaccine induced pandemic and the flu vaccine was not introduced until the 1940s. I mean, stuff like that.

[George Severis]

Like watching that clip, obviously I know that what he is saying is not true, but there was something about seeing someone state something so confidently and even hedging it and being like, you know, it's not definitive, but I have certainly read in multiple places. And you're kind of like, well, he can't be completely lying. Like, there must be some truth to it. You sort of. I See how people can fall down that rabbit hole, because he really does sound very confident. Yeah.

[Julia Claire]

And I also think there's something about being from that echelon of privilege where he's grown up around a lot of very smart, confident people, and the cadence with which they speak is something that he has clearly mastered, whether or not clearly, you know, he knows what he's talking about. Definitely. I didn't know about a lot of the more sinister aspects of his romantic relationships, and I wish I knew less about it. And it kind of really puts the whole scandal with Olivia Nuzzi into a much clearer pattern. This is a man who is. Has just a level of public and interpersonal predation that feels to me like pathological.

[George Severis]

There's a lot of accounts of him being sort of what you would call a creep, like accounts of him treating women poorly in professional settings, sending photos of women without their consent to friends. There was this. I mean, this is the New York Post, so obviously, you know, grain of salt. But his secret sex diaries were found and published a couple years ago. And this is the classic post headline, Inside RFK JR's Secret Sex Diaries, including the codes he used for women while grappling with his, quote, lust demons. So he was grappling with his lust

[Julia Claire]

demons 247 and grappling with them quite physically, quite literally.

[George Severis]

Yeah.

[Julia Claire]

Grappling with other people.

[George Severis]

The lust demons, it must be said, speaking of him not being an exception, are a huge element of the plight of Kennedy men. I mean, this is not the first time we have heard about a male Kennedy battling something that could be described as a sex addiction or just sort of an obsession with sex. And also a way of treating women, let's say, without the respect that maybe you would extend to a human.

[Julia Claire]

And I think in, you know, and we've talked about this before, but like, in so many ways, RFK Jr is the logical endpoint of this constellation of traits that has made up the Kennedy family for generations now. I think it's crazy that we didn't get one like him sooner. Honestly. That's true.

[George Severis]

Or maybe there were others like him sooner, but the world wasn't ready. It's like we needed Trump to open the doors for an RFK junior to be in office.

[Julia Claire]

We'll be back with more United States of Kennedy after this break.

[Jana Kramer]

This is Jana Kramer from Wind down with Jana Kramer. Every Mother's Day, I tell myself I'm going to be more thoughtful than flowers, because flowers are beautiful, but they don't last. In my house, everyone always ends up in the kitchen. Friends, family, the kids and I love having things around that spark conversation and feel special. That's why I love the Lenox Spice Village and your mom will too. It's a set of 24 hand painted little houses that are actually spice jars and I swear people notice it the second they walk in. It's charming, it's nostalgic, and it somehow makes even everyday cooking feel a little more fun. And here's the best part. It actually gets used every day, whether you're starting the full set or helping her complete one she's loved for years. There's a whole world of Spice Village to explore this Mother's Day. Give her something she'll treasure long after the card is put away. Trust me, once you see it, you'll want one too. Find the full [e-mail] SpiceVillage support for

[Commercial Announcer]

the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc. SEC Registered Advisor. Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete Disclosures [e-mail] have you heard about Klarna?

[Klarna Advertiser]

Klarna is an app designed to make everyday spending simpler and more transparent. It gives you flexibility to decide how you want to pay, whether that's paying right away, paying later, or spreading payments over time, depending on what works best for you. Everything is managed in the Klarna app so you can keep track of purchases and stay organized. You can also discover deals and even earn cash back when you shop through the Klarna app with participating brands. It's all about flexibility and staying in Control of how and when you pay. Download the Klarna app today or visit klarna.com to learn more. Terms apply California resident loans made or arranged pursuant to a California Finance Law License NMLS Number 1353190. Klarna Balance Account required to be eligible for cashback points. Limitations, terms and conditions apply.

[Redfin Advertiser]

Let's talk about modern home shopping. It's sort of become a fun side hobby, right? Scrolling listings at night, dreaming about kitchens you've never seen or backyards you haven't even stepped foot in. All from the comfort of pretty much anywhere. Redfin knows a lot of people like you want to own but are stuck in this browsing mode loop. That's where Redfin flips the script. With listings that update within minutes and tours you can book right from the Redfin app, you can see your dream home the moment it appears. Now, liking a listing is easy, but actually landing it, that's where Redfin comes in. Redfin has over 2200 agents with local expertise. And Redfin agents close twice as many deals as other agents. That means they want to help you win, not just window shop. Redfin is built to help you go from just looking to wait. This could actually be home. So become the newest neighbor on the block. Visit redfin.com to start finding and start owning. That's redfin.com Sonesta Travel Pass is the

[Sonesta Advertiser]

most rewarding way to travel, designed to help you get more out of every stay. Sign [e-mail] to enjoy instant savings, bonus points and valuable perks like early check in, late checkout, room upgrades and free stays. Over time with Sonessa TravelPass, every stay brings you closer to your next reward. Choose from more than 1100 hotels across 13 distinctive brands and unlock the best available rates. When you book direct with Sonesta Travel Pass. Here today, Rome tomorrow. Join [e-mail] Terms and conditions apply.

[Julia Claire]

And we're back with more United States of Kennedy.

[George Severis]

I want to go back to the timeline a bit just so we, you know, don't, don't miss anything because there's a lot of exciting stuff here. 1984. Okay.

[Julia Claire]

Okay.

[George Severis]

RFK Jr. Pleads guilty to heroin possession. A month later, he will be sentenced to probation and mandated drug treatment and 1500 hours of community service. Though he is allowed to do his community service in New York as part of his community service. I didn't know this. He starts volunteering with environmental causes and brings his law background to that field. And his probation ultimately ends a year early. In 1987. So this is three years after the hero in charge. He receives a master's degree in environmental law from Pace University School of Law. According to the LA Times, he is the first recipient of this master's degree.

[Julia Claire]

I referenced RFK Jr. S work with Riverkeeper, which is kind of where he cut his teeth as an environmental lawyer. His work with Riverkeeper began through his court mandated community service, and it was part of the ongoing project back then in the late 80s, mid to late 80s and early 90s, to clean up the polluted Hudson River. And you know what? I think that for a long time, Bobby Jr. Was able to kind of live in this space of like, he's a troubled guy. He had such a tragic beginning to his life. We all kind of have the collective trauma of him losing his father. As a, as a nation, we, you know, we mourned the loss of his father. And I think he is someone who people have continually wanted to give a second chance, and he has really obviously abused that time and again.

[George Severis]

There's a way to view all of this. I mean, we are obviously, you know, being a bit sarcastic and coming at it from the place of people who disagree with him politically and think he is a slightly evil person. But reading this timeline, if you didn't know what he was up to, now there is a sense of, of, you know, triumph over hardships that can read as inspiring. I mean, he. His father was literally assassinated when he was 14. He dealt with clear, you know, demons, drug addiction, and then basically found his passion in environmental activism.

[Julia Claire]

So, you know, the more tragic aspect of this that we really haven't mentioned yet is not just that Bobby had. Bobby Jr. Had a personal addiction to heroin, but also he kind of led many of his other siblings down a dark path of drug use, including his younger brother, who died of an overdose at 28 years old in a Florida hotel room. So Bobby was given a second chance time and again. But, you know, many of the other people that he kind of led into depravity were not so lucky. And I think everybody knew, everybody, especially in his family, knew that he was just a very persuasive, charismatic figure from the beginning, which to our earlier point about Eunice Kennedy Shriver not allowing her children to hang out with him, that was exactly why, because he was very persuasive and charismatic.

[George Severis]

And his, you know, his sort of bad boy image, he wasn't one of these. He wasn't like a lone wolf. He was someone who always had a crew with him. Whether that crew Was, you know, the Hyannis Port terrors. Or whether it was him, like, bringing his siblings into it and. Or whether it was, like, quite literally of the anti Vax movement, of which he became one of the main leaders. Like, he thrives on persuading people to do and think and believe questionable things. There is something sort of, you know, cult. Cult leader ish about it completely.

[Julia Claire]

And I think that was what really struck me in doing the initial research on RFK Jr. Is the pattern and the degree to which he has kind of courted followers for most of his life. And I think it was just something that kind of went unchecked and unrecognized for so long again because of the heavy cloud of RFK Sr. S assassination.

[George Severis]

Yeah. So we are at. In 1994, this is sort of goes back to his relationship with women. How's this for a timeline? March 24, he divorces his first wife, Emily Black. April 15, he marries Mary Richardson, who is six months pregnant.

[Julia Claire]

And George, I'm not great at math, but I don't see anything wrong here.

[George Severis]

I don't know what you're getting at.

[Julia Claire]

No, go on. Go on, then.

[George Severis]

And his son Connor is born later that year, obviously with Mary Richardson, his second wife. And Connor fans might recognize from an episode we did a very long time ago about Taylor Swift, because Connor Kennedy is the Kennedy Taylor Swift briefly dated. And it's kind of this big part of the Taylor Swift fandom, and there are various conspiracy theories around it, and people say, oh, look at her. She bought a house next to the Kennedy compound and all this stuff. So we. If you want to hear more about that, and we understand if you want to pause this sort of depressing episode to listen to an episode about Taylor Swift, that is the episode we did with Fran Huffner. So let's see. Okay, so 1996, this is when Bobby Jr. Says that he came down with spasmodic dysphonia, which is the condition he has, which is why he, you know, speaks in a particular way that.

[Julia Claire]

Why he sounds like that.

[George Severis]

Yes. And why. And which, unfortunately, a lot of people make fun of, which, you know, it's complicated to get into the ethics of. Is it okay to make fun of someone's, you know, disability because they are in evil in other areas of their life? The jury's telling us.

[Julia Claire]

And I say, yes, it is.

[George Severis]

Iconically, he did say that it could be a flu vaccine side effect. So it's always nice when something falls right into your existing view of the world. All right, in 2000 Y2K is engaged in a power struggle with Robert H. Bole of Riverkeepers over Kennedy's desire to hire a convicted bird smuggler. And this is. I actually. This is a great place to pause. Like, his environmentalism is so fascinating to me because on the one hand, he is so, so passionate about, you know, conservation, pollution, climate change, things like that. And then on the other hand, he has such. There's a theme of violence against animals, specifically.

[Julia Claire]

Yes.

[George Severis]

In his life.

[Julia Claire]

Yes. So. And. And I'm actually just going to push back slightly on something on. On what you just said, which is. Yeah, yeah, I. I don't know, like, from all. Everything I know about him now, I don't know that he was actually ever passionate about environmentalism. You've seen a lot, you know, like, we just talk him wanting to develop oil fields, like, have a hand in developing oil fields, and this hiring and wanting to hire an Australian bird smuggler. I think Bobby has always been passionate about Bobby. I think that is, like, ultimately he has, for his whole life wanted power and influence and followers and kind of goes wherever the wind takes him. But I think to the violence against animals, I think that will take us really nicely to his cousin Caroline Kennedy's letter to the Senate. I know we are jumping back and forth here, but this letter, you know, talks a lot about the family history.

[George Severis]

And Caroline wrote this letter when he was nominated by Trump. It was before he was confirmed to be Secretary of Health and Human Services.

[Julia Claire]

She wrote this letter to the senators on the Health, Education, labor and Pensions Committee who were doing the hearings that would lead to his confirmation vote. And I'm not going to read the whole thing, but this really dovetails nicely into what we were just discussing. Okay. She says, I have known Bobby my whole life. We grew up together. It's no surprise that he keeps birds of prey as pets, because he himself is a predator. He has always been charismatic, able to attract others through the strength of his personality, willing to take risks and break the rules. I watched his younger brothers and cousins follow him down the path of drug addiction. His basement, his garage, and his dorm room were the centers of the action where drugs were available. And he enjoyed showing off how he put baby chickens and mice in the blender to feed his hawks. It was often a perverse scene of despair and violence. And then, she says, of course, people can grow and change. Through his own strength and the many second chances he was given by people who felt sorry for the boy who had lost his father, Bobby was able to pull himself out of Illness and disease. I admire the discipline that took and the continuing commitment it requires. But siblings and cousins who Bobby encouraged down the path of substance abuse, suffered addiction, illness and death, while Bobby has gone on to misrepresent, lie and cheat his way through life. And then she calls him addicted to attention.

[George Severis]

Addicted to attention. Yeah. Yeah, I guess that is something that, that is an element of it that I hadn't fully grappled with. I mean, I. Because he is, it's complicated. He is a true believer in a lot of this stuff. Like he, you can't call him with the anti vaccine stuff, for example. I don't think that he is solely doing. I think he genuinely believes it. And I think for whatever reason he has decided this is his big cause. But then there is also the element of him just generally wanting to be

[Julia Claire]

the face of something I think he wants to be. Not to sound too hyperbolic, but I think he wants to kind of have cult leader status. And he's courted that for most of his life. And this is the issue that has provided him with that platform and with that position.

[George Severis]

And Caroline Kennedy, again, like, this is not someone who publishes, you know, open letters and public statements on a regular basis.

[Julia Claire]

No, no, almost. We almost never hear from her.

[George Severis]

Yeah, I mean, if there is someone who embodies the kind of stiff upper lip ethos of the sort of like white. Well, to do, you know, Kennedy family, it's her. I mean, I understand that the Ryan Murphy Love Story show is fictional, but the way she's portrayed is kind of the way I imagine she, she, she was early in her life, which is sort of like it's, it's. Imagine, imagine someone saying, well, it's just not done. Yeah, that is what, that is what I imagine when I imagine Caroline Kennedy. So for her to be so blunt and so, you know, frankly, like mean about her own family member, you know, says a lot. While we're on the topic of animal abuse, this is a. I mean, it's not just that he blended baby chickens to feed to his hawks. There is a pattern of sort of like weird interactions with animals throughout his life. I mean, there is the famous story of him abandoning a bear carcass in Central Park.

[Julia Claire]

Yes, he came across bear carcass and was going to pick it up and then harvest it for meat, but then he had to like catch a flight and had a dinner reservation or something. So he ended up just dropping the bear carcass in Central park, which led to like a decade of mystery as to where that carcass came from. And it was him.

[George Severis]

Oh, my. And then he, he once brought a chainsaw to the beach and cut the head off of a beached whale.

[Julia Claire]

That's right.

[George Severis]

Which is part of. I, I. And I want you to sort of walk me through this. This is part of a larger, I guess, obsession he has with like roadkill and roadkill related phenomena. Obviously a beached whale is, you know, beach roadkill. So what's going on there? He actively will collect dead animals off the street.

[Julia Claire]

I don't know that I can say exactly what's going on there because I don't understand it myself. But when pressed about it, he has said, I've been picking up roadkill for most of my life. Which is an insane thing to say for an upper class kid to just be really fascinated with roadkill. I mean, look, I don't think that, that I'm not a doctor. I'm not here to pathologize anyone. But it is.

[George Severis]

You're not a doctor like Bobby?

[Julia Claire]

I leave the medical to him.

[George Severis]

Exactly.

[Julia Claire]

But I mean, it is just like one of those things that they always cite with like, sociopaths and serial killers. It's a childhood violence against animals. And the place where Bobby Jr. Grew up is called Hickory Hill. It was this grand estate in Virginia and they had a ton of animals. His mom was a huge animal lover. But Bobby Jr. Was kind of like a lizard boy. He was really into like, the lizards and the. I don't know, just. And there's nothing inherently wrong with being a lizard boy. I want to say that I think

[George Severis]

being a lizard boy, you know, it can go either way. Like, I think many lizard boys actually have a deep, earnest love for animals and should be, you know, given a journal and potentially a sketchbook and a magnifying glass. And I think they'd be amazing Eagle Scouts. And then I think, you know, for Bobby, it was a little more sort of, you know, hide the rest of the animals because he's coming. For everyone.

[Julia Claire]

Going back to the more recent cutting the head off of a beached whale with a chainsaw, there's simply. I can't tell you why he did it. And he then strapped it to the roof of his car.

[George Severis]

It really, it's just like what you wake up one morning, you're, you know, I. Let's do a fun activity for the day. Maybe we'll go on a hike. Maybe we'll go get brunch. The series of decisions that leads to like, okay, I'm getting the chainsaw. I'm putting it in the car, going to the beach, sawing a head off the beached whale, and then putting it in my car. And that's who's in charge of Health and Human Services.

[Julia Claire]

That's right. That's absolutely right.

[George Severis]

So very quickly, and we'll sort of get to present day, I got to say, we're skipping a lot of the vaccine stuff because we've already covered it in another episode. But. So 2005, Rolling Stone and Salon publish RFK Jr's article Deadly Immunity. This immediately leads to controversy, and in 2011, Salon will pull the article, as will Rolling Stone.

[Julia Claire]

So. So this is. And again, we're not gonna go too deep into the vaccine stuff, the anti vaxx stuff, but this is actually like part of a larger pattern of how we got to where we are today with vaccine misinformation and anti vaxxers who have kind of caused measles to return.

[George Severis]

Yeah, this is sort of like, you can point to this moment as like this sort of incredible case of basically journalistic malpractice that set into motion so many things that would then lead us to where we are today.

[Julia Claire]

Right. And before that, you know, there had been the study that really like, started it all in the uk. Andrew Wakefield conducted a study in which he found, he alleged to have found a link between vaccines and autism, particularly a preservative in vaccines that has not been used for decades. And he published that study in a journal called the Lancet. The Lancet did not retract that study until many years later because so many people, one of the big things about, you know, the scientific method and medical studies is they have to be replicable in order for the conclusion to be true. It has to be replicable. And researchers who tried to replicate this study were never able to find the same studies as Andrew Wakefield. Andrew Wakefield was then found out to have all sorts of financial interest in the results of this study, and he has since been stripped of his medical life license. And again, the Lancet did not retract this study until many years later. The same thing happened with this Rolling Stone Salon article, Deadly Immunity, which is that by the time it was retracted, the damage had already been done. And it's this. And it happened again with RFK Jr. His Facebook presence. Basically, like Facebook was one of the big drivers of anti vax misinformation. It was very, very late in the game. I think it was during the pandemic that Facebook finally closed down the Children's Health Defense Facebook page, which had pushed so much vaccine Misinformation. And obviously the Children's Health Defense is Bobby's organization.

[George Severis]

Right? Yeah. That was sort of during a brief period where there was enough pressure on social media companies to kind of of moderate content in collaboration with fact checking organizations, governments, et cetera. And it, we just don't live in that world anymore. It's.

[Julia Claire]

And again, the damage had already been done because most of the seeds of vaccine misinformation had been planted in the early 2000s and it had proliferated in the 2010s. So by the time they took away RFK Junior's mouthpiece on Facebook. Facebook, it was way, way too late. And that again, there's a pattern of that where like, people just shouldn't have let this guy talk in the first place.

[George Severis]

Yeah. And I think there is an argument to be made that the Kennedy name did cause a lot of people to give him the benefit of the doubt more than they would have some random hack who, whose history is like so spotty and who clearly is not, you know, a serious scientist. Like it is, is him being sort of a, a young, handsome Kennedy with connections was a huge part of this.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah. And I think, I mean, you see that even in his environmental law career, he was not the most. Even though, you know, he passed the bar, he had a law degree, he was not like a super serious intellectual person. A lot of reporting on his time at Riverkeeper was that that he wouldn't be doing like the oral arguments or anything like that, or doing the legwork on these big landmark environmental cases. He would be brought in as kind of a show pony to draw attention to a particular case because of his famous face and his famous last name. Right.

[George Severis]

So we should say sort of funnily enough, the same year, the same year that Rolling Stone and Salon publish this deadly immunity article that they then have to retract. Fox News airs this, this big special about climate change called the Heat is on the case of global warming that Bobby Jr. And Lori David, Larry David's wife, helped get off the ground, which I, I think that really so perfectly shows that his two sides, there's sort of the like the conspiratorial anti vax side and then there's the kind of, you know, Hollywood adjacent philanthropy, you know, kind of philanthropic climate activism side, which is his connection to Laurie David and.

[Julia Claire]

And then obviously, you know, enter Cheryl Hines. We'll be back with more United States of Kennedy after this break.

[Jana Kramer]

This is Jana Kramer from Wind down with Jana Kramer. Instead of giving your mom something that fades, give her something that becomes part of her home this Mother's Day. The Lenox Spice Village is a set of 24 hand hand painted little houses that are actually spice jars. Perfect for anyone who loves to cook, entertain or enjoy the little details that make everyday life special. As a mom, I love gifts that help turn ordinary moments into memories. Charming, timeless and meant to be used. This is one of those pieces she'll treasure and once you see it, you'll want it for your own home too. Find the full [e-mail] Spicefish Village support

[Commercial Announcer]

for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc. SEC Registered Advisor. Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete Disclosure is available at public.com disclosures

[Klarna Advertiser]

if you're looking for more flexibility in how you pay for everyday purchases, meet Klarna. Klarna lets you decide whether to pay now, pay later, or spread payments over time. All managed right in the Klarna app. Download the Klarna app today or visit klarna.com to learn more. Terms Apply California Resident loans made or arranged pursuant to a California Finance Law License NMLS Number 1353190 Klarna Balance Account required to be eligible for cashback points. Limitations Terms and conditions apply.

[Redfin Advertiser]

Let's talk about modern home shopping. It's sort of become a fun side hobby, right? Scrolling listings at night, dreaming about kitchens you've never seen or backyards you haven't even stepped foot in. All from the comfort of pretty much anywhere. Redfin knows a lot of people like you want to own but are stuck in this browsing mode loop. That's where Redfin flips the script with listings that update within minutes and tours you can book right from the Redfin app, you can see your dream home the moment it appears. Now, liking a listing is easy, but actually landing it? That's where Redfin comes in. Redfin has over 2200 agents with local expo expertise, and Redfin agents close twice as many deals as other agents. That means they want to help you win, not just window shop. Redfin is built to help you go from just looking to wait. This could actually be home. So become the newest neighbor on the block. Visit redfin.com to start finding and start owning. That's redfin.com find home wherever you roam

[Sonesta Advertiser]

at Sinesta Es and Simply Suites, where longer stays feel comfortable, flexible and easy. Stretch out and enjoy spacious accommodations and homelike amenities designed to help you settle in and stay productive or relaxed for however long you need. And when you're a Sonesta Travel Pass member, staying at Sinesta Es and Simply Suites means earning points towards free nights, upgrades and more with every eligible stay. Go to Sonesta.com to book your stay and unlock the best rates with Sonesta Travel Travel Pass Here today, Rome tomorrow. Join [e-mail] terms and conditions apply.

[Julia Claire]

And we're back with more United States of Kennedy.

[George Severis]

We're almost at present day now. 2010 is when Kennedy starts experiencing memory loss and fogginess and grows concerned and somehow learns he has a brain worm. Now this is another thing we've been hearing more about over the last few years, that at some point he had a brain worm.

[Julia Claire]

A dead tapeworm in his brain.

[George Severis]

Yes, there are various conflicting stories, but basically he was told he had a brain tumor. A doctor said he might not and it turned out to be a tapeworm.

[Julia Claire]

A dead tapeworm.

[George Severis]

Yes, a dead tapeworm. Interestingly, December 2011, apparently he starts dating Cheryl Hines, who he is presumably introduced to through the David's Larry David and his wife. There is a really amazing photo of the three of them at at their wedding where Larry looks so displeased. It should be noted that in 2011 he was still married to his second wife and the mother of his children, Mary Richardson, who in 2012 dies by suicide.

[Julia Claire]

So Mary Richardson's family actually attempted to bring a wrongful death lawsuit against RFK Jr. Who they said said had kind of emotionally terrorized her. He had cut off her access to money and credit cards. He was known to like emotionally berate her and allegedly told her that she would be better off dead. Again, all of this is alleged, but Maureen Callahan wrote this book called Ask not, which is like all about the Kennedy women and who were destroyed by the Kennedy men. And she talks about that a lot. It's horrific. It's a terrible footnote to this saga.

[George Severis]

Yeah. Then the Trump connection start. You know, in 2017, Bobby Jr. Claims he was asked by President Elect Trump to chair a Vaccine Safety and Scientific Integrity Commission, which that commission never happened, but he, he says that at some point it was in the beginning stages in 2019. To your point, Julia, a study found that 54% of anti VAX ads on Facebook were bought by two groups. One was a random organization called Stop Mandatory Vaccination. The other one was Kennedy's World Mercury Project.

[Julia Claire]

World Mercury Project was the name of the organization that became the Children's Health Defense.

[George Severis]

I see. In 2019 the Children's Health Defense had almost $3 million in revenue. In 2021 it was almost 16. And in 2022 it was $23.5 million in revenue. To state the obvious, 2020 is when Covid happened. So that is why from 2019 to 2022 to interest in anti vax theories sort of skyrocketed. And that's sort of it. In 2023, he announces he's going to run for president as a Democrat. Then he announces he's going to run as an independent. This is, you know, in retrospect, around the time when the Olivia Nussi affair was happening. He ultimately did not win the election, but then joined the Trump administration. And now here we are.

[Julia Claire]

And it's good, right?

[George Severis]

That's the basic timeline of RFK jr's sort of life, relationships, career. It really is very Kennedy esque, just in the sheer quantity of tragic events. And I'm even just saying that objectively, like not even taking into account which ones were, you know, orchestrated by him or which ones happened to him or which ones were accidents or which ones were intentional. It just is, it is drug addiction, it is suicide, it is, you know, extremely traumatic childhood events. It is, you know, broke and relationships with family, bitterness, public fighting.

[Julia Claire]

I mean, I think this, this gets left out quite often. It's in part about his personal struggle with money too. And his folk hero status in the anti vaxx movement is, you know, based on his own assertions that he doesn't have a dog in this fight and he just wants to, you know, protect people from big bad pharma when in fact, you know, and a Lot of people think because he's a Kennedy, he must have so much money, just like generational wealth. But by the time the Kennedy fortune got down to himself and his siblings, and again, he's one of 11, there just wasn't that much money left. And there's been a lot written about his aspirations to greater personal wealth and his really, his belief that he deserves to be wealthy. And he has a direct financial stake in multiple lawsuits currently still going through the courts against vaccine manufacturers. He draws an enormous salary from the Children's Health Defense. He wants money, power and status. That's just like the long and the short of it. And he's gotten all of it. And look at what the rest of us have now.

[George Severis]

Not often that you are faced with something that truly feels like pure evil. Yeah, you know, it's like everything from violence against small animals to just like constant misogyny and disrespect to women, just sort of verbal abuse and, and a complete lack of, you know, a complete lack of respect for your fellow man. I mean, it is, it's kind of shocking, but luckily he is in control of our healthcare.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah, it's good that we'll never hear from him again. But I mean, I think that more than anything, Georgie and I wanted this episode to be an antidote to the often asked, how did he get this way?

[George Severis]

Yeah, exactly. And I think you were very right to point out that we needed to investigate this claim that he used to be normal. And then something happened because even as a kind of casual reader of RFK related news, before I started doing this podcast, like, that was kind of my idea of him too. I was just sort of like. And in fact, I remember and talk about, you know, kind of casual misinformation, but I remember when the brain worm story came out, there was a part of me that was like, well, that explains it. Like something happened. Like he has brain damage.

[Julia Claire]

Like, I mean, it's one of those things where two things can be true at once. He absolutely has worm related brain damage. But I mean, the brain worm died because he couldn't. There was nothing left up there to begin with. Right.

[George Severis]

It's an honor every week to get more and more worm related brain damage by learning about this incredible American family. And I gotta say, we. I recommend the Frontline episode about the. It's called the Rise of RFK junior. If you want sort of two full hours of more detailed historical context, I really recommend it.

[Julia Claire]

I found it so, so helpful and so informative and again, I really think it's important to talk about, talk about these things and to know who is at the helm of one of the most destructive movements in our country. You know, it's likely that, you know, people, you listening to this podcast that, you know, people who are vaccine skeptical, vaccine hesitant, or choosing not to vaccinate their children. And it is important to be able to kind of talk on a human level to people like that and to hopefully let them know that the person who is leading this movement does not have their best interest at heart.

[George Severis]

Yeah, definitely. And I think putting a face to it really helps because it so often devolves into. Well, people say this. Well, you know, I heard this. And slowly, because of the way our media ecosystem works, something that is a very, very fringe opinion becomes normalized really, really fast. And you'll just hear it in mixed company. You'll hear it from, you know, a friend, someone that you know, a co worker, what you sort of assume there's something that you're not familiar with. And people have done their own research. And when you see very clearly, like, everything that a lot of this stuff is based on, the foundation upon which this movement is built has all been debunked, all the original research, the original RFK junior Articles. It's just important to put a face to it. It's funny because the first time I ever heard about vaccines causing autism was in fact from Jenny McCarthy on Chelsea Lately. So that was the face I to the movement.

[Julia Claire]

Okay. Yeah. I mean, well, one day Oprah will answer for her crimes because I know that she also was like the first national show that gave a platform to Jenny McCarthy. But Jenny McCarthy just got her information from people like RFK Jr.

[George Severis]

Yes, completely. And. And ultimately she got her information from people that were presenting themselves as experts, and they were presenting themselves as, as, you know, people in the medical community. And.

[Julia Claire]

And also, she was the mother of an autistic son.

[George Severis]

Exactly. She was the mother of the son and wanted, quote, unquote answers.

[Julia Claire]

And which, of course, so many parents who are in that position, they're suffering and they want to know why. And they, yeah, unfortunately, want someone to blame.

[George Severis]

Yeah.

[Julia Claire]

And that's really powerful. And RFK Jr knows that.

[George Severis]

I know we are going along here, but just to close out the autism element of all of this. One thing that is especially offensive when RFK Jr talks about this is that he seems to have zero respect for people with autism. He talks about them as though they are completely disposable members of society and as though it's like a death sentence. I mean, there are quotes where he says, these are people that will never pay taxes, that will never.

[Julia Claire]

They'll never throw a baseball, they'll never write a poem, they'll never be able

[George Severis]

to use a bathroom, use a toilet unassisted. All this stuff, I mean, mean it. For someone who has dedicated the better part of his life to, quote unquote, studying what causes autism, he seems to have no concept of what it is.

[Julia Claire]

So anyway, I mean, he treats it as a disease that needs eradication.

[George Severis]

Yeah. Which I think is a whole other part of his. He does have this obsession with like, cleanliness and detoxifying everything, which I. We need a, you know, psychoanalyst to help us work through.

[Julia Claire]

He doesn't believe in germ funds theory. He believes that, like, if you are a. If you take all the right supplements and if your body is a temple, then disease cannot enter it, which is simply not how that works.

[George Severis]

Yeah. And that is how he got a brain worm. So thank you everyone for listening. We will be back next week with our regularly scheduled programming, but we just wanted to sort of, while we still can, in our last three episodes, do this, do this deep dive that we've been, we've been craving for a while. So that is it this week from United States of Kennedy. Subscribe and follow United States of Kennedy for all things Kennedy every week.

[Julia Claire]

United States of Kennedy is hosted by me, Julia, Claire and George Severis.

[George Severis]

Original music by Joshua Topolsky Editing by Graham Gibson. Mixing and mastering by Doug Boehm.

[Julia Claire]

Research by Dave Bruce and Austin Thompson.

[George Severis]

Our producer is Carmen Laurent.

[Julia Claire]

Our executive producer is Jenna Cagle.

[George Severis]

Created by Lyra Smith.

[Julia Claire]

United States of Kennedy is a production of iHeart podcasts.

[Klarna Advertiser]

If you're looking for more flexibility in how you pay for everyday purchases, meet Klarna. Klarna lets you decide whether to pay now, pay later, or spread payments over time. All managed right in the Klarna app. Download the Klarna app today or visit klarna.com to learn. Learn more Terms Apply California Resident loans made or arranged pursuant to a California Finance Law License NMLS Number 1353190 Karna Balance Account required to be eligible for cash back points. Limitations terms and conditions apply.

[Sonesta Advertiser]

Find home wherever you roam at Sinesta Es and simply suites where longer stays feel comfortable, flexible and easy. Stretch out and enjoy spacious accommodations and home like amenities designed to help you settle in and stay productive or or relaxed for however long you need. And when you're a Sonesta TravelPass member, staying at Sonesta es in simply suites means earning points towards free nights, upgrades, and more with every eligible stay. Go to Sonesta.com to book your stay and unlock the best rates with Sonesta Travel Pass here today, Rome tomorrow. Join [e-mail] Terms and conditions apply.

[Commercial Announcer]

It's tax season, and by now we're all a bit tired of numbers. But here's an important one you need to to hear.

[George Severis]

$16 billion.

[Commercial Announcer]

That's how much money in refunds the IRS flagged for possible identity fraud. But it's not all grim news. LifeLock monitors millions of data points per

[George Severis]

second and alerts you to threats you

[Commercial Announcer]

could easily miss on your own. If your identity is stolen, they'll fix it, guaranteed. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com iheart Terms apply when Kohler,

[Kohler Ambassador]

global design leader in luxurious kitchen and bath product products, asked me to be their ambassador for timeless, elegant, durable cast iron, I said, I'm in. Soon after, I was in their Kohler, Wisconsin foundry watching molten iron poured, enamel applied by hand, and the beautiful finished pieces ready to ship. Since 1883, Kohler cast iron has been crafted by incredible artisans, and seeing it firsthand gave me a whole new appreciation appreciation for their craftsmanship. Now I'm proud to lend my stamp of approval to my favorite Kohler Cast iron products for their durability, beauty and enduring style. Shop my curated [e-mail] as the Kohler Cast Iron Ambassador, I say, long live cast iron.

[Commercial Announcer]

Here's the truth. You could literally be adored by everyone and then come home and still get completely ignored by your own own cat. It's classic cat behavior. But new Shiba Premium Puree is a lickable treat that changes all that. They're protein rich, made with bone broth, and have the smooth, creamy texture cats go crazy for, especially when it's hand fed. Yeah, it's more than a treat. It's a fast pass to favorite human status. So feed your cat Sheba and go from totally ignored to truly adored in just 12 days. Guaranteed or your money back.

[George Severis]

Learn [e-mail] com this is an iHeart podcast.

[Julia Claire]

Guaranteed human.