← United States of Kennedy
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This is the story of the 1. As a procurement manager for a hospital system, she keeps every facility in her network stocked and ready. That's why she counts on Grainger to be her single source for thousands of products, from disinfectants to lighting, air filters, and more. And with fast, dependable delivery, Grainger helps her keep every facility stocked, safe, and running smoothly. Call 1-800-GRAINGER click granger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.
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Next Monday, our 2026 iHeart Podcast Awards are happening live at south by Southwest.
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This is the biggest night in podcasting.
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We'll honor the very best in podcasting from the past year and celebrate the most innovative talent and creators in the industry.
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And the winner is.
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Creativity, knowledge and passion will all be on full display.
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D
Thank you so much, iheartradio. Thank you to all the other nominees.
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A
You guys are awesome.
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B
Watch live next Monday at 8pm Eastern, 5pm Pacific@veeps.com or the Veeps App.
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A
When segregation was a law, one mysterious black club owner, Charlie Fitzgerald, had his own rules.
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Segregation in the day, integration at night.
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It was like stepping on another world.
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A
Was he a businessman? A criminal? A hero?
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Charlie was an example of power.
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They had to crush him.
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A
Charlie's Place from Atlas Obscura and visit Myrtle Beach. Listen to Charlie's place on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
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C
I actually drive better when I'm high.
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It heightens my senses, calms me down.
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If anything, I'm more careful.
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Honestly, it just helps me focus. That's probably what the driver who killed a four year old told himself, and now he's in prison. You see, no matter what you tell yourself, if you feel different, you drive different. So if you're high, just don't drive. Brought to you by NHTSA and the Ad Council.
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D
Welcome to Dirty Rush, the truth about
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sorority life, the Good, the bad and the sisterhood with your hosts, me, Gia Giudice, Daisy Kent and Jennifer Fessler. The reality of Greek life has been a mystery for those outside the sorority circles until now.
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Is it really a supportive sisterhood that's simply misunderstood? Or is there something more scandalous happening on campuses across the country? Get dirty. Listen to Dirty rush on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
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I'm George Severis.
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And I'm Julia Claire.
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And this is United States of Kennedy, a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. Every week we go into one aspect of The Kennedy Story and today we are talking about the instit that has for the last 60 years been a beacon of American excellence in the performing arts and more recently the site of some very bizarre MAGA related political scandals.
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The Kennedy center the John F. Kennedy center for the Performing Arts was a bipartisan project for the advancement of the performing arts, conceptualized during the Eisenhower administration and built during the Kennedy administration, thanks to a $30 million fundraising initiative launched in 1962 by President Kennedy and the First Lady.
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So Broadway super producer Roger L. Stevens, known for hits like west side Story and Cat on a Hot Tin Roof, was the founding chairman of the Center's Board of trustees and First Lady Jacqueline Kennedy was the Center's honorary chairman and former First Lady Mamie Eisenhower was co
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chair when JFK was assassinated in 1964. The new president Lyndon Johnson signed a Congressional law establishing the center of as not only the U.S. national Culture center but also a living memorial to President Kennedy.
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And the center has been an American cultural stalwart ever since. It hosts nearly every genre of performance art, from ballet in the National Symphony Orchestra to pop and rock concerts from contemporary artists. It's also known for the annual Kennedy Center Honors Gala, which celebrates five people each year for their lifetime contributions to the arts.
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But over the last year, the Kennedy center has been in the news for a different reason. In 2025, President Trump dismissed the Center's entire board of trustees, appointed new members who elected him chairman and changed the Center's name to the Trump Kennedy center for the Performing Arts Woof.
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C
Which he's technically not allowed to do, but we will get into that in a bit. The first Kennedy Center Honors Gala after these changes was hosted by Trump himself. He took on emcee duties for the night and honored some of his personal favorite artists, including Sylvester Stallone, the band Kiss, Gloria Gaynor, George Strait, and Michael Crawford, who originated the titular role in the Phantom of the Opera, one of Trump's favorite Broadway shows.
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Ever since Trump took over, the center has been embroiled in near constant scandals, including canceled performances, low ticket sales, accusations of mismanagement, and of course, in classic Trump fashion, misleading and false statements about those very scandals from the people in charge.
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The latest news as of last month is that the center will be closing for two years for renovations beginning this July. So to unpack all of this, we are joined by New Yorker writer Katie Waldman, who has been covering Trump's takeover of the Kennedy center for the last year and who actually attended the last Kennedy Center Honors Gala and has lived to tell the tale. Katie, welcome to United States of Kennedy.
- [05:48]
D
Hi. Thanks for having me.
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B
Of course.
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C
So we have a lot to talk about on this episode. In fact, there's a lot constantly news about the Trump takeover of the Kennedy Center. I just saw that last month it was announced that it was going to be closing starting in July for two years for renovations.
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D
Yeah, this is a story that keeps developing, like, very, very quickly. So I think the current status is, yeah, they're going to close it this summer and then maybe open it two years later. But we shall see.
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C
Got it. Just in time. Our producer was saying just in time for his third term. So we look forward to that. Before we get into the current developing stuff, can you give us sort of a sense of the Kennedy Center's place as a cultural institution, let's say, before the last year and a half?
- [06:35]
D
Yeah. So, I mean, the Kennedy center was founded or the idea for the Kennedy center sort of began during the Eisenhower era. It was the country was coming out of the Second World War, and it was kind of the strategic motivation on one hand, you know, announce American cultural dominance and power, but also a kind of more soulful one that was telling the American people and the world that there's more to life than war. There's also art. It was kind of uplifting, or that was the idea. And so Eisenhower was sort of working on this. And then when President Kennedy was assassinated, the plans that had begun in the late 50s kind of melded with people's desire to honor Kennedy, and that became the Kennedy center, which I sort of think of it as like a holy trinity of like a performing arts venue and a cultural center and what people call a living memorial to Kennedy.
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B
And.
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D
Sorry, just to answer your question about what it's been like before the Trump takeover, I think a lot of people who grew up in D.C. and I am among these people, have a lot of fondness for it. Like, it's a little bit stodgy, it's a little bit middle of the road. Deceits are like, you know, have been upholstered decades ago or whatever, which I think Trump really dislikes. But they have wonderful family friendly offerings. They have some more experimental stuff. And it is like a national landmark and something that's been around for a long time and a sort of wonderful reminder that at its best, this country cares a lot about independent art.
- [08:27]
B
Yeah. You just mentioned that you grew up in D.C. and so it seems like you have a personal relationship with the Kennedy Center. As someone who grew up in the city, what Was that relationship that you had with the center? Like, yeah.
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D
I mean, so as a kid, first of all, we would do like field trips to the Kennedy Center. So I remember, like we saw. Do you remember Sweet Honey in the Rock? It was like a spiritual group. We were totally mesmerized. I remember my entire class just loved it. You know, there are always the kind of long running shows, sheer madness. I think there was a Guys and Dolls production that we saw when we were teenagers. And then sort of as I got older, I rebelled and was like, ugh, the Kennedy center is so mad. Like, I would never go to the Kennedy Center. But they do they. Well, right now, who knows? But they had a program called Millennium Stage that like every night there would be some sort of free or cheap performance, whether it was jazz or dance or just like a local folk artist or something. And I think, like, you know, 20 somethings would go on dates and stuff to the Millennium Stage. So I remember, like spending some time there too.
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C
Yeah. Julia and I were talking before the recording about how for people who maybe didn't grow up around it, our main connection to it was the Kennedy Center Honors Galas, like the Kennedy Center Honors performances and everything. And we were talking about our favorite, like, the ones that have stuck with us. Julia, you were saying the Barbra Streisand one is one that you return to.
- [10:08]
B
Yeah, the Barbra Streisand one where Idina Menzel does Don't Rain on My Parade. And she is clearly obsessed with Barbara and Barbara does not seem to care about her. And that's really fun to watch. And then there's so many good ones. Probably one of my all time favorites is the band Heart honoring Led Zeppelin, doing this like really epic version of Stairway to Heaven with like a full choir. And one of the members of Led Zeppelin, his son, is playing the drums and like all of them are crying.
- [10:43]
D
That's so sweet.
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B
And then, I mean, like one of the most, I feel like from recent years, one of the most famous moments was when they were honoring Carole King. And as a big surprise, obviously, like, Carole King is a prolific songwriter and one of her most famous songs is Natural Woman. And this big surprise was that Aretha Franklin came out and the crowd went nuts. And she, like, was wearing, you know, her classic, like floor length fur, dropped it on the floor, sat down at the piano and started playing Natural Woman. And Obama starts crying immediately. I mean, just like you get so many, like incredible moments like that that I feel like you don't get anywhere else.
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C
Yeah, it's Rare also for. Not to sound pretentious or something, but it's rare for American culture especially to have something like that that honors artists in that way that isn't, you know, an award show or some kind of, you know, like a Super bowl halftime performance or something like that. It feels almost European or something. And I mean, one of the ones that I. The Barbara Cook one, Glenn Close does, Losing My Mind from Follies, which is sort of a fun performance. And part of the appeal of all this is not just seeing the performances, but seeing all the people reacting to the performances. Sometimes a person being honored looks especially moved, or sometimes they look honestly, like, not that happy with how the rendition is going. Katie, do you have any that sort of stick with you? Before we get to the sort of depressing part of this interview, So I
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D
have to say that. Did you watch the Kennedy Center Honors, like, on tv, like in the broadcast later, or would you go to the.
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C
This is mostly on for me. It's mostly like YouTube over the years, just. Just finding them on YouTube.
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B
I watched. I watched them on TV with my parents when I was younger, though.
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D
Yeah. I mean, we didn't watch them. Maybe this is, like, strange, D.C. taking things for granted, privilege. Like. I didn't really follow the Honors gala, although it would be sort of. DC would be a buzz because there would be a lot of visiting dignitaries from the arts community, not political dignitaries. That's nothing to write home about in D.C. but I do think there's something in what you're saying about the pressure being kind of off for some of these people because they're not on Broadway, they're not in the sort of pinnacle of artistic achievement, that sort of high stakes, stressful context there, in a place that has built in order to celebrate not just them, but the arts in general and what the arts can do for just like the ordinary American citizen. And so it is this kind of, like, especially warm welcome, I think. And just. You're right. The dynamic of sort of different generations of artists paying homage to each other is, like, really lovely to watch. I'm trying to think of, like, some of the. The honors performances. I think there might have been a Bonnie Raitt one that I saw a video of, and she's always so incredible.
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B
I love her.
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D
Yeah.
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C
Love Bonnie Raitt.
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B
I think there's something too, to what you're saying, George, about. It's not like the Grammys or the Tonys, where the artists are honoring themselves. Like the. It's kind of a melding of the state and the performing arts. That's really unique. Like, we have so few examples of that otherwise of like the federal government.
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D
Yeah.
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B
Kind of saying that. Signifying that the arts are important.
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C
Yes. There's very little public funding of the arts in America. There's very. It's, if anything, usually what you get in the intersection of sort of pop culture and politics is maybe a celebrity, like stumping for a political candidate or singing the national anthem at an inauguration or something like that. There is something unique about something like Kennedy Center Honors.
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B
We'll be back with more United States of Kennedy after this break.
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If you work in university maintenance, Grainger considers you an MVP because your playbook ensures your arena is always ready for tip off. And Grainger is your trusted partner, offering the products you need all in one place, from H vac and plumbing supplies to lighting and more. And all delivered with plenty of time left on the clock. So your team always gets the win. Call 1-800-GRAINGER visit grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.
- [15:34]
B
Next Monday, our 2026 iHeart Podcast Awards are happening live at south by Southwest.
- [15:39]
C
This is the biggest night in podcasting.
- [15:42]
B
Will honor the very best in podcasting from the past year and celebrate the most innovative talent and creators in the industry.
- [15:48]
D
And the winner is.
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B
Creativity, knowledge and passion will all be on full display.
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D
Thank you so much, iheartradio. Thank you to all the other nominees.
- [15:57]
A
You guys are awesome.
- [15:58]
B
Watch live next Monday at 8pm Eastern, 5pm Pacific free@veeps.com or the Veeps App.
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D
Segregation in the day, integration at night.
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A
When segregation was the law, one mysterious black club owner had his own rules.
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C
We didn't worry about what went on outside. It was like stepping in another world.
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A
Inside Charlie's place, black and white people danced together. But not everyone was happy about it.
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D
You saw the kkk.
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C
Yeah. They were dressed up in their uniform. The KKK set out to raid Charlie, take him away from here. Charlie was an example of power. They had to crush him.
- [16:45]
A
From Atlas Obscura, Rococo Punch and visit Myrtle beach comes Charlie's Place, a story that was nearly lost to time. Until now. Listen to Charlie's place on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.
- [17:05]
D
Segregation in the day, Integration at night.
- [17:10]
A
When segregation was the law, one mysterious black club owner had his own rules.
- [17:15]
C
We didn't worry about what was going on outside. It was like stepping in another world.
- [17:20]
A
Inside Charlie's place, black and white people danced together. But not Everyone was happy about it.
- [17:28]
D
You saw the kkk.
- [17:29]
C
Yeah. They was dressed up in their uniform. The KKK set out to raid Charlie, take him away from here. Charlie was an example of power. They had to crush him.
- [17:45]
A
From Atlas Obscura, Rococo Punch and visit Myrtle beach comes Charlie's Place, a story that was nearly lost to time until now. Listen to Charlie's place on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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C
Hi, it's Alec Baldwin. This season on my podcast, here's the Thing, I'm speaking with more artists, policymakers, and performers like composer Marc Shaiman. Once you've established that you have the talent, it's about the hang. It's the pleasure of hanging out with the people that you're with. You know, Rob and I was always a great hang. We would sit in kibbutz for hours and then eventually get around to the music. That's what I mostly think of when I think of him. The time together. Laughing lawyer Robbie Kaplan.
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B
The great gift of being a lawyer is the ability to actually change things
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D
in our society in a way that very few people can.
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B
You can really make a difference to causes in the United States if you bring the right case at the right time.
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C
Marriage equality. Yeah.
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D
Windsor's the perfect example.
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C
And journalist Chris Whipple.
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B
Every White House staffer, they work in
- [18:54]
C
a bubble called the West Wing, and it's exponentially more so in the Trump White House. Listen to the new season of here's the thing on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [19:15]
B
And we're back with more United States of Kennedy.
- [19:18]
C
Katie, you attended the last Kennedy Center Honors.
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B
I did.
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C
So that might be kind of a nice entry point for this conversation. Can you describe to us? I mean, you've written about it and you've talked about it elsewhere, but can you describe to us what that experience was like?
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D
Sure. I mean, in some ways, it was pretty consistent with what I would expect from any type of gala like this. It was lots of fancy clothes, there's a red carpet. The decorations were all very lavish. I think this is also a particularly Trumpian set of priorities. And I've heard from people in the Kennedy center that the sort of step and repeat, the kind of paraphernalia around the performances has become more and more important. But, you know, I think in some ways it was the Kennedy Center Honors that we've come to expect. Like, there were lesser known artists who paid tribute to the honorees. There was a host, in this case, Trump himself. That is a new development that has never happened before. But basically, the evening was quite long. It was about three hours. And Trump went through each of the five nominees and said a little thing about why they were deserving of this honor. And then there would be a set of performances that were supposed to set off the career highlights of the honorees. What made it strange, I think, was a combination of the vibe in the audience. It was a very political crowd. Like, when I was sort of walking around eavesdropping, people weren't talking about the performances or about the honorees or really about art at all. They were talking about politics, and they were talking about D.C. and in a somewhat. I mean, I'm just thinking of one conversation that I overheard where a man had brought his young kid and the kid was wondering whether he could have a sip of champagne from the champagne table. And the father said, well, if this was California and we were Democrats, then, yes, we'd let you. But. But anything doesn't go here.
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C
Interesting. Well, it's funny, because they are celebrating, like, Gene Simmons. Like, it's not like they're celebrating Christian. Christian music. That's family values focused.
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B
Yeah.
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D
To that comment, the other big difference was the selection of honorees, which, you know, is not a crazy group of people.
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C
That stuck out to me. Sorry to cut you off. That stuck out to me because you, of course, want to sort of roll your eyes at the whole thing and be like, I can't believe he chose xyz. But they are all people that you could imagine, if they had slightly different political alignments, could have been chosen by another president. I mean, it is like pop culture icons. It's not like he awarded Kid Rock or something. Like, they are people that, quote, unquote, would deserve a lifetime achievement award, even potentially under a different presidency. But go on.
- [22:27]
D
Yeah, no, I think that's totally true. And what was interesting about it, first of all, I think that he probably considered this very carefully and got a lot of advice about what would make sense. But it did also seem to be a compromise between sort of the reality principle and Trump's fantasy self. And I think I put something in the piece about how each honoree sort of seemed to represent a different fragment of his psyche, of his idealized psyche, whether it's sort of like George Strait, the country singer who takes no guff, or Sylvester Stallone, even more so.
- [23:07]
C
The perpetual underdog. Totally.
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D
I Will Survive another perpetual underdog anthem, et cetera.
- [23:15]
C
That was a really interesting way to frame it. And it's everything With Trump, you know, sort of psychoanalytically is like a. It's always. There's always some slightly buried element of his psyche that. That, you know, is clear to anyone with, you know, sort of.
- [23:33]
B
With eyes to see if, you know the answer to this. How are the honorees usually chosen? It was my understanding that it was not the President themselves who selects them, but who just kind of signs off on them, rubber stamps them.
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D
Yes. So in the past, there's been a committee, and I think that that committee is usually comprised of, like, members of the board who, you know, in the past have also been much more independent, as opposed to kind of a yes committee for the chairman. And then also a lot of the programmers at the Kennedy center who have these deep and longstanding relationships with artists are able to weigh in. But.
- [24:13]
C
Ye.
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D
So. So there's a committee that is designed to pick the nominees or pick the honorees, but, yeah, this. This year, they were handpicked by the President.
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B
That's crazy.
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C
Yeah, that does seem like a significant change, because it's. I don't know, it's easy to sort of. To be like, well, we're always a divided country. Surely Republicans always picked conservative figures and Democrats always picked. But that's, in fact, not the case. I mean, I remember we. I grew up under George W. Bush, and it always. It was actually sort of like a funny element of it that he would be kind of honoring people that maybe had spoken out about him in the past in their own life. And that is, you know, it's one of those moments where you're like, okay, so we do live in a country that has both freedom of speech and also separately respects the arts. And separately, there are moments where we could come together, like, you know, these sort of cliches that I don't know, that maybe don't exist anymore.
- [25:14]
B
No, I think that's such a good point, George. And I always think of. I mean, I think from our lifetime, the most famous example of that is George W. Bush presiding over the honoring of Barbra Streisand.
- [25:26]
C
Exactly. You can't imagine that happening now.
- [25:29]
B
And, you know, I think he, like, announced the honorees before the ceremony. It almost looked like a press conference. I'm remembering this very shoddily, but. But he gave, like, a really lovely speech about her and also, like, made a little joke about the things that she's said about him publicly. And, you know, I think I remember something like. I also know a Barbara with a lot of opinions, his mom.
- [25:55]
D
I mean, it's something.
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C
It's like the White House correspondence dinner or something, which, you know, you can have mixed feelings about it in terms of the ethics of access journalism and whatever else, but it is just optics wise, a place where people that otherwise hate each other and don't agree come together under the same roof and, you know, are able to be cordial together in a room.
- [26:18]
B
I think it's a good thing. I don't, maybe I'm like, I'm. And I don't want to sound like I'm civility pilled or whatever, but I'm like, you should like we should all be able to say one nice thing about each other.
- [26:30]
C
Sure.
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D
Yeah. Well, and just the White House Correspondence center has not survived the Trump administration. And I think also just adding some data points to your earlier argument, there have been Republican presidents who wasn't Clint Eastwood honored under Clinton or a different Democratic president, and then Robert Redford was honored under Bush or Nixon, a Republican president. So there has.
- [26:59]
C
Yeah, it seems like a soft power. It seems like something that you do to show that you are kind of like open minded and big hearted. It's almost like a way to kind of soft reach across the aisle or something. Like, because you are ultimately trying to, you know, be popular among even people who didn't vote for you. I mean, it's a good thing.
- [27:22]
B
Yeah.
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D
And even in a more Machiavellian or, or let's just say politically strategic sense to indicate that you're not threatened by like the slightest tremor of society completely.
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B
Right.
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C
Yes.
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D
Yes.
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C
Okay. So the honorees are certainly chosen in a different way now, but more in terms of the structure of the organization. Can you describe kind of like what the management and funding of it looked like before all of this? I know that it is some sort of public private partnership. There are kind of like wealthy independent donors. How is it funded and how is it run in broad terms?
- [27:57]
D
Yeah, so earlier, or let's say during the tenure of Deborah Rutter, who preceded Richard Grinnell as president, I think in 2020, 2023, the budget was about $280 million. About 16% of that came from Congress was appropriated money. And that money was set aside specifically for building maintenance. So like the H Vac system is broken, let's fix it, but could not be spent on the actual performances. And so most of it, most of what kept the, the Kennedy center operating was ticket sales, donations, and then sort of miscellaneous revenue from like the parking lot. And it was kind of a, it was a pretty delicate balance. Right. Because you needed to have the programming that brought in audiences, but you also needed to sort of present a sense of mission that would make both the big donors give large gifts and also attract sort of the small recur gifts that mean that the community is strong. And so from a perspective of what the Kennedy center does, I think those are the two groups of people that sort of overlap, but also both need to be kept happy in different ways. And then another group of people that is involved in this delicate ecosystem is the administrators themselves. So that's kind of like the different populations that are all working together to make sure the Kennedy center is healthy. I feel like your next question is going to be like, what?
- [29:40]
C
How did that change? Yes, exactly.
- [29:43]
B
Correct.
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D
Yeah. So basically these different revenue streams have begun to dry up because no one is happy. None of the populations like what is going on. And I don't, I would say that's like an overstatement, but unfortunately I really don't think it is. So you've surely seen reporting about the ticket sales, which are dismal. People are voting with their feet, their boycotts.
- [30:13]
B
I think even as recently as a few days ago, there were a bunch more cancellations from artists themselves.
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D
Yes, yes. Oh, I'm so sorry. That's like a really good point that another population that needs to be participating in this large collabor is the artists themselves. And yes, the artists don't want to be associated with the center. Many of them don't. So there have been cancellations even when they decide to go forward with a performance. The sort of best practices for this type of venue is if there aren't enough ticket sales, you cancel the performance so as not to embarrass the talent. So there have been a lot of instances like that where the talent will say, okay, I'll do it, but how are we doing on numbers? And then the programmers will say actually like, don't bother. So performances are down. And then in terms of donations, a lot of people have canceled their subscriptions. And I think that the sort of community based recurrent donation model has been set aside. A lot of this has to do also with, with the firing of a lot of the fundraising department. The new hires who are now doing fundraising are much more from political campaigns. And so they'll seek out like a corporation or even a foreign country for like a single big donation.
- [31:39]
C
Well, the foreign country thing was something that I don't think I knew until your piece on it. Can you talk a little bit more about that?
- [31:46]
D
Yeah, yeah, sorry. I feel like I'm saying a lot of Unrelated things at once to try to like, answer this question. But one thing that Ambassador Grinnell, and I'm using that title advisedly, not only because he really insists on being called Ambassador Grinnell even to his employees at the Kennedy center, but also because it matters. He came up through the un he's had these sort of foreign diplomatic posts before being tapped to run the Kennedy center. And he has really made a lot of use of his connections as a diplomat, as an ambassador, to get sponsorships from foreign countries for specific. So, you know, instead of just getting a lot of money that's not earmarked for anything for the center, which then decides what programming to do, you'll reach out to a particular country. For example, like the Hungarian embassy did something with the Kennedy Center.
- [32:44]
B
What a shock.
- [32:45]
D
Yes. Yeah, amazing.
- [32:47]
B
And Richard Grinnell, we should say, was. Worked for the Hungarian government. That was like a big scandal that he like, didn't declare his. That he had been paid by them.
- [32:58]
D
Yes, indeed. Exactly. Exactly. So there will be like the Kennedy center will be in partnership with the Hungarian embassy or some other country to put on a specific performance. In this case, a celebration of Hungarian culture and Christianity.
- [33:16]
C
I guess that is. It's funny, it sounds so sinister because it is, but if you had told me, you know, they're partnering with the Italian embassy for a Sophia Loren retrospective, I would. Obviously not. Not bad. An eyelash. Like, it's. It's not inherently sinister that, that a cultural institution would be working with a quote, unquote, a foreign country, but in this instance it seems like explicitly political in this way.
- [33:38]
B
Well, yeah, because obviously Viktor Orban is a dictator.
- [33:42]
C
Right, Exactly.
- [33:45]
B
And because they're also celebrating Christianity, which is like, not something that the Kennedy center would. Would ever normally do.
- [33:51]
D
Yes. And I think there's another piece to it too, which is often the Kennedy center, as, again, this sort of express of the ideals of American culture would host foreign born or like, international or global performers. As if to say like, this too is American art. We are inclusive, we're eclectic, we're diverse, blah, blah, blah. We care about all these different traditions. But there's a difference between sort of we are welcoming other countries and their artists to our stages and like, like we, the Kennedy center, require foreign powers in order to operate because we otherwise can't raise money. Like, that's a very different message.
- [34:33]
B
You know, definitely, you speak a lot in your piece about the kind of the way that the Trump administration came in and cleaned house at the Kennedy center and fired a lot of the board members. And trustees and anyone who. Who Trump said did not share our vision for a golden age in arts and culture, which is very funny. But you also said that all the new appointees don't know basic arts administration terminology like capacity, arena show. What does stage left mean? What is a backline? Like even what an usher does?
- [35:15]
C
The usher thing really took me out. Yeah.
- [35:19]
B
I mean. I mean, this kind of replacement of arts administration people, like career arts administration people with political appointees, I would imagine is probably pretty unprecedented.
- [35:32]
D
I think that's right. And it does sort of show how the Kennedy center is a microcosm for a lot of other agencies in government that have just been sort of staffed at the highest levels with loyalists, as opposed to people who really know what they're doing. I think the defense that the Kennedy center leadership would offer is, well, you know, a CFO doesn't need to know what an usher is, but a programmer might, or like a head of programming might. And there is just sort of an attitude of incuriosity which, you know, shading into laziness. That's like you're at an arts organization, like, perhaps do a little bit of homework. And I think, too, the importing of basic strategies from political campaigns into arts organizations, that hasn't worked well at all.
- [36:28]
C
Yeah. It's difficult to disentangle how much of the chaos is because of political reasons and how much of it is just incompetence and laziness, as you're saying. It's also, you know, know people that are career arts administration workers, especially the ones that aren't in super high positions. These positions tend to not be super well paid. It is, which I don't think is a good thing, for the record, but it is something that you get into often because you are passionate about the arts rather than for the money or for the, you know, prestige. And so I can imagine that that has something to do with it as well. If you are suddenly, if you want to work there because of your political beliefs rather than because of your passion for the arts, it's not necessarily going to translate to good programming.
- [37:16]
D
Right, right. And this is actually, it's a little bit of a tangent, but it's reminding me of one of the miscalculations from the fundraising team, which is leadership thought, you know, the Kennedy center used to be kept afloat by progressives, Democratic donors because it was too woke and they did experimental stuff and there was a social impact team and blah, blah, blah. But what has ended up happening is the mismanagement of sort of beloved Institutions like the Washington National Opera, National Symphony Orchestra has alienated even sort of lifelong Republicans. So people who say, I would otherwise support maga, but I really like opera, and because you're trashing opera, I'm gonna stop donating to the Kennedy center, even though it's run by Trump, you know, so it's this sort of, like, prioritization of art over politics that he can't have anticipated.
- [38:19]
C
I can also imagine that, you know, when I think of the stereotype of kind of an older, white, conservative couple, maybe one of the reasons they like the opera and the symphony is because it's actually one of the few kinds of art that they don't think of as political. You know, they want to go there because they don't want to deal with, you know, going to a concert and having a. A rock star, like, have. Make a speech about. About social justice or something. Like, you. You actually get to go and. And pretend it's. It's all an apolitical experience. So it is such a funny kind of unintended consequence that he has alienated people that normally would be on a side. So, okay, so we have, like, the entire board is replaced. Trump is chairman.
- [38:58]
B
He re. He renamed it. We haven't really talked about the fact
- [39:01]
C
that he renamed it.
- [39:02]
B
He put his name on it.
- [39:03]
C
Richard Grinnell, who's sort of this Trump loyalist. A bunch of people who don't know what an usher is are, you know, booking. Are booking shows that then don't sell tickets, and then artists are canceling. But then when they don't cancel, then the performance gets canceled because people are boycotting. It seems like complete chaos. However, I think you write this in the piece that the one person that does have a vision for it is Trump himself, which is sort of like such a funny, almost tragic part of this story. Trump himself, regardless of any of his political opinions, genuinely does care about the performing arts in his own way. He is a huge fan of Broadway. He is a huge fan of certain musicians. So to your understanding, what is the vision that Trump has, if he were to really dedicate his time to do this? What would it look like under his. Under his leadership?
- [39:57]
D
This is such a good question, and I almost want to turn it back to you guys, because I'm so curious what you think. I think that. I mean, yes, he's a showman. We know that he loves Andrew Lloyd Webber. We know that he likes spectacle, sort of like performance of power, like, really monumental, magnificent aesthetics and some kind of, like, sentimentality. I think, like, he really he likes the sort of like, tears are flowing, memory and cats type deal. But we talked a little bit about psychoanalysis, and I think his vision for the Kennedy center is sort of like a confected object for him. It's like a mirror for him. It's him, but the art version that sort of expresses the self that can be expressed through art. So it's like expressing his power and sort of his more inner qualities that only art can get at. And I'm not really sure how to describe what those are, but to sort of back up a little bit, I think the vision, in a broad way would be more populist. So it would be a mix of the sort of culturally prestigious things that he maybe doesn't care about, but believes reflect well on him. So the opera and the symphony, and then the kind of crowd pleasing mass culture that you can kind of imagine seeing that he wanted to honor Kiss or Michael Crawford and Gloria Gaynor, who, again, incredible singer and artist. But, okay, so this is where I ask you guys, what do you think his aesthetic is? His vision is.
- [41:45]
C
I mean, we were saying this is not an original idea, but he is just. He is perpetually stuck in the 80s in terms of his sensibility. And so I think obviously Kiss is a big part of that. Obviously he loves disco. He loves disco, Disco, the Andrew Lloyd Webber stuff. I think he is sort of torn between his actual tastes and then his desire and. And his rewarding of loyalty. Because I think oftentimes, I think sometimes there's an amazing overlap, like with the. What's his name, who originated the Phantom?
- [42:19]
B
Michael Crawford. Michael Crawford.
- [42:20]
C
Michael Crawford. Thank you. Like, sometimes there's an amazing overlap where it's like, okay, this is his favorite musical or, you know, his second favorite after Cats, you know, and it just so happens that the man he wants to honor also supports him. But sometimes, you know, I don't think, for example, that Trump actually likes the music of Kid Rock, but he, of course, is gonna reward someone in the entertainment industry who expresses loyalty to him. And I think that's kind of the sort of tragedy at the center of Trump's relationship with pop culture is he is drawn to a world that doesn't love him back.
- [42:58]
B
In a sense, I think that's exactly right. I think all things being equal, I think this is the kind of thing that he most wants to do with his presidency is something like this. I think he does not. He, like, very much does not enjoy much about being president.
- [43:15]
D
Right.
- [43:15]
B
Which is evidenced by the fact that all he does, all day is like, watch TV and tweet or truth, rather. And I think that this is the kind of thing that he really loves. As George said, he is both attracted to and repelled by the performing arts and like Hollywood. And he wants so badly to be accepted. He is like, he is so frustrated that he is not accepted by Hollywood and the entertainment industry. And I think in another life, he, you know, know, should be hosting the Tonys.
- [43:56]
C
And he did a great bit with Megan Mulally.
- [43:59]
D
Yeah.
- [44:01]
B
We'll be back with more United States of Kennedy after this break.
- [44:10]
A
When you manage procurement for multiple facilities, every order matters. But when it's for a hospital system, they matter even more. Granger gets it and knows there's no time for managing multiple suppliers and no room for shipping delays. That's why Grainger offers millions of products in fast, dependable delivery. So you can keep your facility stocked, safe and running smoothly. Call 1-800-GRAINGER Click grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.
- [44:40]
B
Next Monday, our 2026 iHeart Podcast Awards are happening live in south by Southwest.
- [44:45]
C
This is the biggest night in podcast
- [44:47]
B
will honor the very best in podcasting from the past year and celebrate the most innovative talent and creators in the industry.
- [44:53]
D
And the winner is.
- [44:56]
B
Creativity, knowledge and passion will all be on full display.
- [44:59]
D
Thank you so much, iheartradio. Thank you to all the other nominees.
- [45:03]
A
You guys are awesome.
- [45:04]
B
Watch live next Monday at 8pm Eastern, 5pm Pacific free@veeps.com or the Veeps app.
- [45:11]
D
Segregation in the day Charlie Integration at night.
- [45:16]
A
When segregation was the law, one mysterious black club owner had his own rules.
- [45:21]
C
We didn't worry about what was going on outside. It was like stepping in another world.
- [45:26]
A
Inside Charlie's place, black and white people danced together. But not everyone was happy about it.
- [45:34]
D
You saw the kkk.
- [45:35]
C
Yeah, they was dressed up in that uniform. The KKK set out to raid Charlie, take him away from here. Charlie was an example of power. They had to crush him.
- [45:51]
A
From Atlas Obscura, Rococo Punch and visit Myrtle beach comes Charlie's Place, a story that was nearly lost to time. Until now. Listen to Charlie's place on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast podcast.
- [46:10]
D
Segregation in the day, Integration at night.
- [46:15]
A
When segregation was the law, one mysterious black club owner had his own rules.
- [46:21]
C
We didn't worry about what went on outside. It was like stepping in another world.
- [46:26]
A
Inside Charlie's place, black and white people danced together. But not everyone was happy about about it.
- [46:34]
D
You saw the kkk.
- [46:35]
C
Yeah.
- [46:36]
D
They was dressed up in their uniform.
- [46:38]
C
The KKK set out to raid Charlie, take him away from here. Charlie was an example of power. They had to crush him.
- [46:51]
A
From Atlas Obscura, Rococo Punch and visit Myrtle beach comes Charlie's Place, a story that was nearly lost to town time until now. Listen to Charlie's place on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.
- [47:10]
C
Hi, it's Alec Baldwin. This season on my podcast, here's the Thing, I'm speaking with more artists, policymakers, and performers like composer Mark Shaman. Once you've established that you have the talent, it's about the hang. It's the play pleasure of hanging out with the people that you're with. You know, Rob and I was always a great hang. We would sit in kibbutz for hours and then eventually get around to the music. That's what I mostly think of when I think of him, the time together. Laughing Lawyer Robbie Kaplan.
- [47:39]
B
The great gift of being a lawyer is the ability to actually change things
- [47:44]
D
in our society in a way that very few people can.
- [47:47]
B
You can really make a difference to causes in the United States if you bring the right cases at the right time.
- [47:53]
C
Marriage equality. Yeah.
- [47:54]
D
Windsor's the perfect example.
- [47:55]
C
And journalist Chris Whipple. Every White House staffer, they work in a bubble called the West Wing. And it's exponentially more so in the Trump White House. Listen to the new season of here's the thing on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [48:21]
B
And we're back with more United States of Kennedy.
- [48:24]
C
One of my favorite sort of what ifs with Donald Trump is like, I do think he at some point wanted to be a Broadway producer, and it sort of didn't work out. And this, this Kennedy center takeover is a. Is such a funny. Is such a funny way to basically achieve that in the most complicated way possible, which is first be elected president, then make yourself the head of the cultural institution that a president has a relationship, and then basically through that, become a producer.
- [48:54]
B
It's all.
- [48:55]
C
It's like it's all been leading to this. It's all been leading to him hosting a show that honors Michael Crawford. Like, it's so. His intentions are just so, like, naked and clear.
- [49:06]
D
I think that's right. And I think that it is clear that in some ways he values culture much more than he values politics in that. Like, yeah, with politics, politics, the domain is what people do. Culture is the domain is who people are. And he is more interested in controlling who we are even than what we do. And by that, I mean he wants our emotional commitment to him, not just us going through the motions and doing what he wants. He wants people to love him. And so I think he sees politics as downstream from culture, and what he would love most of all is for culture to be downstream from. From him. Donald Trump.
- [49:51]
C
Yeah, completely.
- [49:52]
B
I think that's exactly right. And I've been thinking a lot about his decision to rename the center after himself, the Trump Kennedy Center. If you go on the website, it says it on the website, because the center was established by Congress, he actually really can't do that. It has to be like, Congress, who allows that, that. But I think to what you're saying, he kind of knows that his presidency, even though it feels permanent and endless, will come and go. And I think he wants some, like, lasting cultural power. And I do think that this is the way that he thinks he can do that. And I wonder if you have a sense of. Of whether or not that's, like, part of his obsession with the Kennedy Center. It's, as we're saying, it's like, kind of a weird project to take when you are, like, fighting multiple wars. But he seems to be really committed to it. And I just, I guess, like, one of my questions had been, like, why do you think the Kennedy center was kind of his white whale?
- [51:09]
D
Yeah, I mean, the first answer might be a little bit of a deflection, which is, like, there are analogies here to, like, the east, like, the Oval Office, and, like, other sort of paving over the Rose Garden, like, things that, why are you thinking about this? Like, why are you showing people carpet swatches when you're supposed to be, like, deciding whether to bomb Iran? And so there have been instances of his presidency where he's just, like, doing the sort of real estate impresario thing in all kinds of inappropriate contexts. And I think there have been other buildings that he has renamed that seem sort of like minor, random buildings. He's also attacked the Smithsonian, I think, is more of a straightforward political move to sort of limit the possibilities of what people might know about the country and its history. And then, like, but why is the Kennedy center perhaps even more important than these other things? I think you're absolutely right that it is a kind of portal into the heart and soul of the country, and it's the national stage. And, like, what does he want to be always on but the national stage? And there's something about Kennedy himself, I think, that is unbearable To Trump, that sort of courtly, polished, gracious, like all these things that he, he doesn't think he will ever really be.
- [52:41]
C
I'm really glad you brought it back to Kennedy because something that we, we had a guest kind of make this point, and I think it has sort of not left either of us, which is like John F. Kennedy in his sensibility is actually way more Trumpian than people think because he, it's like Jackie was the one who had the like, amazing taste and, you know, was attracted to high art and all this stuff. But then JFK and the Kennedy family especially always had kind of ties Hollywood to celebrity culture. Joe Kennedy was a Hollywood producer. Jfk, even while in office, was obsessed with celebrity gossip. I mean, part of his obsession with figures like Marilyn Monroe and whatever is almost this very Trump, like, attraction to kind of stars, just like the big stars, you know, it's not, he isn't about, he's not trying to find like the diamond in the rough. It's like, who are the top five stars I need to know about. Like, he's like, you know, if he lived in a different era, he would care about like Brangelina, you know, And I think it's so weirdly perfect that it's kind of come full circle to Trump in this strange way. But in terms of, to kind of like broaden the scope of this and think about how other presidents have, have run the, the Kennedy Center. Obviously, Trump is not the first president to have kind of one hand in the culture industry. I mean, even Barack Obama, since he has left office, you know, has these deals with Netflix releases, his, you know, list of his favorite books and movies every year, whatever, whatever. Obviously, like, interacting with pop culture in this way is, is a way to telegraph your taste, a way to sort of like project some sort of authority, whatever. In terms of the Kennedy center, can you think of other major productions or projects or honorees that were ways for other presidents to do, do on a much smaller scale, the kind of thing Trump is trying to do. Like, was there, I mean, even just, I don't know, putting on some sort of controversial player musical to show that we're, you know, we're taking a stand of some sort. Is there anything like that that comes to mind?
- [54:52]
D
I mean, these are absolutely the right questions. And I have to confess that we're butting up to the limits of my reporting on the present day sort of disrepair at the center. But I would say two things that come to mind. First, the many foreign born Kennedy center honorees, whether it's like Barashnikov, Placido Domingo, Joni Mitchell, many of the Beatles, Bono. There's just been many, many artists who have been honored, not because they're American, but because of the impact that they have had on American culture. And I sort of love that vision of the way that the Kennedy center has conceived of American art, not only in terms of, like, what it's produced, but what it admires, what it appreciates and values and how sort of collaborative and international that is. So I think that's like one broad message that has sort of fallen away in the Trump era and then another and also, of course, more diverse recipients. Like there have been like the sort of creators of jazz and blues and different types of dance. And that has all been overdue but still important. And then in terms of the way that the Kennedy center has functioned politically, there's the presidential box in the Opera House, which is where the sort of VIPs go to often, sometimes with the president and sometimes just as a gift from the president to witness whatever the top performance happening at the Kennedy center is. And I've heard that through most of Obama's presidency, it was full every night. So he made very, very powerful use of it. And in the Trump first term apparently was also full every night. I don't think I haven't gotten confirmation on this. I don't think that that has necessarily been true in the second term. So that's another strange development.
- [57:05]
B
There's one more thing I just wanted to note before we wrap up. You talked about we've been discussing the new funding structure under the Trump administration. And you mentioned in your piece that the House Environment and Public Works Committee launched an investigation into Richard Grinnell's leadership, which it seems like almost can be described as a sort of cash for access US System. It's very pay to play. How similar or different is this from the way that Trump kind of used his DC Hotel in the first term?
- [57:45]
D
I think pretty similar. You know, I'm just trying to think about specific examples if like around the, the World cup draw like that, a bunch of like Saudi Arabian officials and high up people were milling around in this room. And at the end of the FIFA draw, like a bunch of deals were announced. And also the Kennedy center, according to Richard Grinnell on social media, which is never like the most reliable source, but the Kennedy center apparently had raised millions of dollars. So there's definitely this kind of come mingle brush shoulders, like we'll get some donations. It'll be kind of political but kind of Not, I think that may be more the role of like the sponsorships of particular performances. I don't get the sense that artists themselves are kind of granted access to the Kennedy center stage because of their support for Trump. Although your point about like maybe Kid Rock next year, I wouldn't be surprised.
- [58:56]
C
I know, know, I know. I wonder. We should do. I'm going to go get on Polymarket and bet on who the bet on who the next honorees are going to be. Okay, Katie, final question, which is a difficult one. Where is all this going? What do you, what do you think the future of the Kennedy center holds? I mean, it's about to close for two years for renovations. Presumably by the time it's back, if all goes according to plan, it'll be towards the end of the, of the Trump administration or even even after he's out of office. What is it going to take to either sort of bring it back to what it was or kind of see a sort of slow death of what it was? What do you think it'll look like in a few years?
- [59:38]
D
Yeah, I mean, it's a, it's a really hard question. From what I have heard, it has been maybe not irreparably broken, but it has been truly, truly manhandled and taken apart. And it will take in the same way that some of the OMB stuff after Doge hit, it will take decades to rebuild. I mean, think about all of the institutional knowledge and the longstanding relationships and the sort of easy back and forth between these career programmers and the talent community and not just artists, but agents and the people who like connect talent with performing spaces and the loss of prestige, which has been enormous. And prestige also being something that would attract people to the Kennedy center because they can't pay as much as a privately owned venue. And the in house marketing team has all quit. You know, so just all of this sort of basic stuff that you don't even think about that needs to be rebuilt from the ground up. So it's going to be, I think, think a long trek. But there also seem to be a lot of people who really care about it and want to make it work. And maybe, you know, the board is going to, or at least some members of the board will outlast Trump, assuming he doesn't get a third term. And that may be difficult because the board is pretty in lockstep with Trump. But eventually, yeah, maybe it could make a comeback.
- [61:21]
C
Right. A note of very cautious optimism at the end. And until then, you know, anyone can go on YouTube and watch Idina Menzel perform for a very unimpressed Barbra Streisand.
- [61:32]
B
And you should. You should.
- [61:33]
C
And you should. That's right. Katie, thank you so much for joining us. This was really sort of enjoyable to talk to you, but depressing to hear everything you're saying.
- [61:42]
D
Well, you're welcome. And I'm sorry.
- [61:45]
C
Yeah, it's okay. It's okay. All right. Thank you so much.
- [61:48]
B
Thanks, Katie.
- [61:48]
D
Okay, thank you.
- [61:50]
B
So that's it for this week's episode.
- [61:51]
C
Subscribe and follow United States of Kennedy for all things Kennedy.
- [61:55]
B
Every week, United States of Kennedy is hosted by me, Julia, Claire and George Severis.
- [62:00]
C
Original music by Joshua Topolsky.
- [62:02]
B
Editing by Graham Gibson.
- [62:04]
C
Mixing and mastering by Doug Boehm.
- [62:06]
B
Research by Dave Bruce and Austin Thompson.
- [62:09]
C
Our producer is Carmen La Laurent.
- [62:11]
B
Our executive producer is Jenna Cagle.
- [62:13]
C
Created by Lyra Smith.
- [62:14]
B
United States of Kennedy is a production of Iheart Podcasts.
- [62:21]
A
When you manage procurement for multiple facilities, every order matters. But when it's for a hospital system, they matter even more. Grainger gets it and knows there's no time for managing multiple suppliers and no room for shipping delays. That's why Grainger offers millions of of products and fast, dependable delivery so you can keep your facility stocked, safe and running smoothly. Call 1-800-GRAINGER Click grainger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.
- [62:51]
B
Next Monday, our 2026 iHeart Podcast Awards are happening live at south by Southwest.
- [62:56]
C
This is the biggest night in podcasting.
- [62:59]
B
We'll honor the very best in podcasting from the past year and celebrate the most innovative talent and creators in the industry.
- [63:05]
D
And the winner is.
- [63:07]
B
Creativity, knowledge and passion will all be on full display.
- [63:11]
C
Thank you so much, iheartradio.
- [63:13]
D
Thank you to all the other nominees.
- [63:14]
A
You guys are awesome.
- [63:15]
B
Watch live next Monday at 8pm Eastern, 5pm Pacific free@veeps.com or the Veeps app.
- [63:23]
A
When segregation was a law, one mysterious black club owner, Charlie Fitzgerald had his own own rules.
- [63:29]
D
Segregation in the day, integration at night.
- [63:32]
C
It was like stepping in another world.
- [63:34]
A
Was he a businessman? A criminal? A hero?
- [63:38]
D
Charlie was an example of power.
- [63:41]
C
They had to crush him.
- [63:43]
A
Charlie's place from Atlas Obscura and visit Myrtle Beach. Listen to Charlie's place on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [63:52]
C
Fourteen years in prison for killing a young woman. A 15 year sentence for a crash that caused three deaths. Twelve and a half years for killing a child and critically injuring her mother. All true stories all caused by marijuana impaired drivers. No matter what you tell yourself, if you feel different, you drive different. So if you're high, just don't drive. Brought to you by NHTSA and the Ad Cat Council.
- [64:22]
D
Welcome to Dirty Rush, the truth about
- [64:24]
A
Sorority Life, the Good, the Bad, and the Sisterhood, with your hosts, me, Gia Giudice, Daisy Kent, and Jennifer Fessler. The reality of Greek life has been a mystery for those outside the sorority circles until now.
- [64:38]
D
Is it really a supportive sisterhood that's simply misunderstood? Or is there something more scandalous happening on campuses across the country? Let's get dirty. Listen to Dirty rush on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [64:52]
B
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [64:54]
A
Guaranteed Human.