Back when I first worked with Jana Werner at Tesco Bank, I saw firsthand how a crisis could be a crucible for innovation and transformation. Her ability to unlock potential in even the most challenged teams was unforgettable. Now, teaming up with Phil Le-Brun—a transformational leader I came to know through his work at McDonald’s—they’ve co-authored The Octopus Organization, a guide for thriving in an age of continuous transformation.

In this episode, we go behind the scenes of their book and explore the anti-patterns that hold organizations back, the behaviors leaders must unlearn, and the mindset shifts required to succeed when change never stops. Whether you’re a CEO, change agent, or team lead, you’ll leave with small, actionable experiments to start evolving your organization—today.

Key Takeaways

Unlearning blame-based leadership: Shifting focus from fixing people to fixing systems unlocks performance and trust.
Spotting anti-patterns in everyday behavior: Habits like jargon, silos, and avoidance subtly block progress.
Embracing uncertainty in leadership: Probabilistic thinking builds better decisions and psychological safety.
Driving transformation through small experiments: Distributed action outperforms top-down mandates.
Leading with curiosity in the age of AI: Execs must actively engage with tech to stay relevant and credible.

Additional Insights

Behind the book: Why The Octopus Organization centers on 36 anti-patterns and how they uncovered them
Real-world leadership stories: Lessons from Tesco Bank, McDonald’s, Amazon, and Ferrari
Transformation fatigue is real: Overengineered change efforts often create fear and resistance
Alignment breakdowns in leadership teams: Many transformations fail because leaders aren't truly on the same page
Reframing performance: Asking “what did you stop doing” reveals deeper impact than traditional goals

Episode Highlights

00:00 – Episode Recap

Jana Werner shares how she took over a struggling tech team, discovered their true strengths, and transformed their performance by rebuilding culture and trust. Phil Le-Brun describes the importance of creating a culture of trust in organizations, allowing people to test ideas and make a real difference.

02:46 – Guest Introduction: Jana Werner & Phil Le-Brun

Barry O'Reilly introduces guests Jana Werner and Phil Le-Brun, describing their collaboration during times of crisis at Tesco Bank, their leadership backgrounds, and their shared vision for adaptive, purpose-driven organizations as captured in their new book.

04:36 – Revitalizing a Demotivated Team at Tesco Bank

Jana Werner narrates how she took over a demotivated technology team, overcame her initial preconceptions, and transformed the group into a top-performing unit by changing culture, empowering individuals, and shifting organizational dynamics.

07:07 – Lessons from McDonald's: Balancing Centralization and Agility

Phil Le-Brun explains McDonald's transformation journey, the need to unify local and corporate efforts, and the financial impact of building trust and alignment.

10:16 – Learning from Industry Leaders

Phil recounts interviews with CEOs like Indra Nooyi and Benedetto Vigna, highlighting that true leadership requires humility, storytelling, and ongoing curiosity.

14:14 – Unlearning the Need for Certainty

Jana Werner discusses shifting away from needing all the answers and embracing uncertainty, drawing on insights from Annie Duke and other leaders.

21:30 – Small Changes, Big Impact

Jana introduces the book's structure around "anti-patterns" and advocates for making small, distributed changes rather than massive, top-down transformations.

26:29 – Leadership Alignment: Avoiding Transformation Pitfalls

Phil highlights the need for alignment among leadership teams and points out common failures in transformation projects due to lack of shared understanding.

29:09 – Becoming "Technology Teenagers"

Phil and Jana emphasize the importance of leaders learning to experiment and engage directly with new technologies, encouraging curiosity and hands-on learning with AI.

32:12 – Start Small and Experiment

Both authors encourage listeners to pick a tip from the book and try it right away—emphasizing the value of experimentation, feedback, and removing old practices to spark growth.

Useful Resources

Jana Werner on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/janawerner1/
Phil Le-Brun on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/phillebrun/
The Octopus Organization – Book by Jana Werner & Phil Le-Brun - https://www.amazon.com/Octopus-Organization-Thriving-Continuous-Transformation-ebook/dp/B0DRZ2MXBR
Related episode: Accelerating Transformation in Crisis – Tesco Bank Case Study - https://barryoreilly.com/explore/articles/accelerating-transformation/
Amy Edmondson – Research on Psychological Safety - https://amycedmondson.com/psychological-safety/
Annie Duke – Thinking in Bets - https://www.annieduke.com/books/
Indra Nooyi – Leadership Insights - https://www.indranooyi.com/

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LinkedIn: Barry O’Reilly
Website: barryoreilly.com
Twitter/X: @barryoreilly
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Facebook: Barry O’Reilly

The Octopus Organization with Jana Werner & Phil Le-Brun