The Holderness Family Gets Real About Perimenopause

Summary

unPAUSED with Dr. Mary Claire Haver

Episode: The Holderness Family Gets Real About Perimenopause
Date: April 28, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this deeply candid and engaging conversation, Dr. Mary Claire Haver welcomes Kim and Penn Holderness—creators, bestselling authors, and viral video stars—to unPAUSED. Together, they dive into the realities of perimenopause, open up about mental health, marriage during midlife transitions, parenting, and the importance of empathy (for both partners and oneself). The Holdernesses also share their experiences with ADHD, destigmatization, and the power of community and laughter through life's most challenging seasons.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Origin Story of the Holderness Family

[06:32–08:50]

• Kim and Penn began as TV news reporters at rival stations in Orlando. After meeting at typical late-night spots for journalists, their friendship grew into love.
• Despite initial mix-ups (Kim thought his name was “Ben”), they eventually dated, got engaged within nine months, and built a life together.
• Their creative partnership began in earnest with the viral “Christmas Jammies” video, unexpectedly launching them into internet fame and sparking a unique content journey blending family, humor, and authenticity.

2. Navigating Viral Fame & Family Choices

[08:53–11:10]

• The viral success of their family video series forced conversations about boundaries and consent regarding their kids’ online presence.
• Kim: “We put our kids on the internet before they had the ability to consent. Any criticism of that from them or anybody else is very fair.” [10:27]
• The Holdernesses now give their kids the agency to remove any content they’re uncomfortable with.

3. Comedy, Relatability, and the Menopause Transition

[11:10–12:37]

• The Holderness approach: permission to laugh, never punching down, and turning vulnerability into connection.
• Kim acknowledges the responsibility of portraying perimenopause authentically: “There's, like, a fine line...I don't want to weaponize menopause and make it seem so terrible.” [12:20]
• They’ve removed videos that felt disempowering or misrepresentative.

4. Community Feedback: Feeling Seen

[12:37–14:45]

• The overwhelming majority of comments on their menopause content express gratitude (“Thank you for helping me feel seen and understood”). [12:40]
• Many viewers lament poor care or understanding from their own doctors, highlighting systemic gaps in women's healthcare.
• Gender differences in social media engagement also discussed—women are more likely to support publicly, while men tend to engage privately.

5. The Decision to Embrace Aging Online

[16:15–17:28]

• The Holdernesses chose transparency about age and perimenopause over industry advice to hide it (“We got new agents, because what am I gonna do, like, hide the fact that I’m aging?”) [16:27]
• The “Perry” skits were born from lived experience and Penn’s attempts to process and connect through humor.

6. Inside the Perimenopause Experience

[19:17–25:03]

• Kim’s perimenopause symptoms began with overwhelming anxiety and panic attacks, even in mundane moments (“Everything felt like I was being chased by a bear, and I really thought something was wrong with me...That started before any of the physical stuff.”) [20:30]
• She learned the emotional symptoms were a normal part of perimenopause—through the internet, not healthcare.
• Kim details feeling like a burden to her family before finding a compassionate doctor who tried hormone therapy, psychiatry, and medication combinations that made a profound difference.
• On the reality of “normal” diagnoses: “Normal means common, not ‘you should deal with this.’” [22:12]
• Both discuss the heartbreak that women are often simply told to “deal with it” by healthcare systems, leading to unnecessary suffering; Dr. Haver notes, “The most likely time for a woman to commit suicide is between 45 and 55.” [23:48]

7. Impacts on Marriage & Intimacy

[28:09–33:38]

• Penn shares vulnerability about feeling confused as a partner, loneliness during moments of disconnection, and how male partners can support: “Our Disney prince nature...this is going to be the time that you learn that’s not what you do. This is where you listen and you empathize and you’re there for her in ways that you’re not normally there for people.” [29:51]
• Physical touch and intimacy evolved: “I want you here, but I don’t want you touching me.” [31:34, Kim]
• Open communication kept their marriage strong, but the perimenopause period was the most difficult season for them—a sentiment echoed by Dr. Haver in her own marriage.

8. Multi-generational Perspectives & Medical Practice

[33:38–37:30]

• Discussion of how perimenopause was (and sometimes still is) overlooked in medicine, how management was (and sometimes is) “pinning the tail on a moving donkey.” [35:00]
• Both Kim and Dr. Haver express empathy and frustration for mothers’ generations and the lack of support and information.
• Dr. Haver and Kim discuss the overlap between rough postpartum experiences and subsequent struggles with menopause.

9. Postpartum Mental Health Parallels

[40:09–43:37]

• Kim had severe postpartum anxiety and intrusive thoughts—and the medical system’s limited capacity to screen and support.
• Notable insight: The importance of pediatricians and partners in detecting mental health struggles when mothers may not vocalize their difficulties due to shame or fear.

10. ADHD Diagnosis & Experience

[45:13–52:27]

• Penn was diagnosed with ADHD as a college student after a lifetime of feeling like an “alien,” both misunderstood and emotionally sensitive.
• While medication initially improved academic performance, it also stunted creativity and failed to address emotional aspects, a gap still often present in healthcare.
• The Holdernesses' advocacy and new books on ADHD seek to destigmatize the diagnosis, especially for women who historically are underdiagnosed.

11. ADHD, Perimenopause & Women’s Health

[52:27–54:43]

• There's growing awareness of both ADHD and menopause as “hidden” or misunderstood conditions; both are highly stigmatized and undertreated.
• Many women recognize ADHD in themselves when their children are diagnosed or during midlife transitions such as perimenopause and child-rearing.
• Kim: “So many people…she goes, my childhood makes so much more sense.” [52:27]
• Studies are lagging behind, but the lived experience and community are critical for destigmatization.

12. Parenting, Self-Compassion, & Resilience

[54:43–57:09]

• Dr. Haver shares her evolution from ADHD skepticism as a parent and physician to gratitude and heartbreak over how much easier her daughters’ lives might have been if she’d known what she knows now.

13. Empty Nest & Relationship Evolution

[60:23–64:30]

• Kim reflects on the melancholy of their daughter leaving for college—heightened by perimenopause: “It’s just cruel that this happens during perimenopause.” [60:57]
• As their work and life have become more intertwined, they use conversation cards to maintain meaningful, non-work or kid-centric dialogue at dinner (“It’s like conversation Viagra”). [62:23]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Kim: “Everything felt like I was being chased by a bear, and I really thought something was wrong with me…That started before any of the physical stuff started.” [20:30]
• Kim: “We put our kids on the internet before they had the ability to consent. Any criticism…is very fair.” [10:27]
• Penn: “Our Disney prince nature…this is going to be the time that you learn that’s not what you do. This is where you listen and you empathize…” [29:51]
• Kim: “I want you here, but I don’t want you touching me.” [31:34]
• Dr. Haver: “Normal means common, not ‘you should deal with this.’” [22:12]
• Penn on ADHD: “I felt like I went from, you know, you’re a space cadet, you’re an adorable space cadet, to is there something fundamentally wrong with me?” [47:03]
• Kim: “So many people…she goes, my childhood makes so much more sense.” [52:27]
• Dr. Haver: “The most likely time for a woman to commit suicide is between 45 and 55.” [23:48]
• Kim on empty nesting: “I think the lack of estrogen in the house, I felt like…I’m just very aware of how much testosterone there is in my house right now.” [60:27]
• On empathy and progress: “Empathy is how this movement is growing. It’s you guys sharing your stories and feeling not broken, not alone. And, like, there’s a way to get out of it.” [43:25, Penn]

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

| Time | Segment / Topic | |--------------|-------------------------------------------------------------| | 06:32–08:50 | Holderness marriage origin and transition to content | | 08:53–11:10 | Viral fame, family video choices, kids’ consent | | 11:10–12:37 | Humor about menopause and being careful with representation | | 12:37–14:45 | Viewer response & systemic issues in women’s healthcare | | 19:17–25:03 | Perimenopause symptoms begin, seeking help | | 28:09–33:38 | Marriage, intimacy, and perimenopause | | 33:38–37:30 | Multi-generational issues, what changed in medicine | | 40:09–43:37 | Postpartum anxiety, parallels to later perimenopause | | 45:13–52:27 | Penn’s ADHD diagnosis and impact | | 52:27–54:43 | ADHD, perimenopause overlap, underdiagnosis in women | | 60:23–64:30 | Empty nest emotions, staying connected as partners |

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Episode Tone & Final Reflections

True to the spirit of the Holdernesses and Dr. Haver, this episode is honest, heartfelt, and leavened with humor, even during its most vulnerable moments. The conversation is full of empathy, encouragement, and practical insights for anyone navigating perimenopause, marriage, mental health, or parenting during life's transitions.

If you’re looking for a relatable, deeply human exploration of what it means to grow, adapt, and stay connected as individuals and families, this episode does not disappoint. The openness shown by all three participants serves not only to inform but to empower listeners to seek connection, help, and, most importantly, to give themselves and loved ones grace during life’s most complex transitions.

Transcript

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

This episode contains references to child loss and death. Some listeners may find it distressing. Please listen with care and step away if you need to.

[Kim Holderness]

He is the world's most sensitive, understanding husband ever. He's like, don't need to explain it. We're good. Just go lay down and go for a walk. Whatever you need to do. So everything, like, felt like I was being chased by a bear, and I really thought something was wrong with me. So that started before any of the physical stuff started. Yeah, and I was relieved to hear that, like, oh, that. That happens in perimenopause. I just thought I was going crazy.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

So when did you hear that, though? Like, when did someone say, hey, you

[Kim Holderness]

told me on the Internet, which is, like, going to make me cry. Yeah. I mean, even the postpartum depression stuff, like, there. There weren't women talking about it. They were talking about, like, how wonderful it was to have, like, a newborn baby. And I was like, I can't even walk down the stairs without, like, fear of tripping. And it was. It was so hard. And then perimenopause hit, and I just thought I was going crazy. I'm like, pen, I'm so sorry you married me.

[Podcast Announcer]

The views and opinions expressed on Unpause are those of the talent and guests alone and are provided for informational and entertainment purposes only. No part of this podcast or any related materials are intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. There are some people who feel special

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

to you even before you ever meet them in real life.

[Podcast Announcer]

I know it sounds strange, but if you've spent years laughing with them, learning from them, and seeing your own life reflected back at you in their content, well, that connection is real. And Kim and Penn Holderness are absolutely those people. For me, this husband and wife content creator team have had me and pretty much all of their followers laughing for years with their parodies, skits, and blogs that tap right into the realities of family, relationships and life. They are bestselling authors, award winning podcast hosts, and they were the winners of season 33 of the Amazing Race through the Miracle of Parasocial Relationships.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

I felt like I knew them long before we ever met.

[Podcast Announcer]

And then about a year and a half ago, we finally met in person at the south by Southwest Film Festival. Then right after that, I promptly left my phone in an Uber, which honestly just tracks for me. Penn somehow managed to figure out how

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

to track it down, contact the driver, and get it delivered back to me.

[Podcast Announcer]

I'm not sure I could have done that by myself.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

He said it was because ADHD is a superpower.

[Podcast Announcer]

Because apparently leaving your phone behind all the time comes with a skill set. In person, they were exactly who they are on camera.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Warm, sharp, funny, real.

[Podcast Announcer]

No performance, no polish. Beyond authenticity. Then we discovered something else that made the night even more surreal. We both had books publishing on the exact same day. And for those of you who've never

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

published a book, when two books come

[Podcast Announcer]

out on the same day in the same category, that usually means competition. The same lists, same ranking, same pressure. Kim and Penn with ADHD is awesome. And me with the new menopause. And yet there was never even a whisper of rivalry. We cheered each other on from the very beginning. When the New York Times bestseller list was announced. I was on vacation and intentionally limiting my social media. But then Kim texted me with the

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

news we had taken the top two

[Podcast Announcer]

spots on the list together. I honestly could not have written a better ending to a story if I even tried. I was screaming from the rooftops. For all of us. Over the last few years, I've watched them navigate midlife, perimenopause, adhd, and marriage. And we're going to dive into all of that. So today's conversation with them feels like a long time coming. It feels personal, it. It feels joyful, and it feels deeply aligned with what Unpaused is all about. I'm Dr. Mary Claire Haver, a board certified obstetrician, gynecologist, and certified menopause practitioner. I'm also an adjunct professor of obstetrics and gynecology at the University of Texas Medical Branch. Welcome to Unpaused, the podcast where we cut through the silence and talk about what it really takes for women to thrive in the second half of life. You know that moment when you catch yourself in a mirror halfway through the day and your makeup just looks faded? It looked great this morning. So what changed? Here's the truth. Most makeup isn't built to last with your skin. It's built to cover it. And over time, it breaks down, it settles, and it gets heavy. So instead of layering more on, what if you just changed what you were using? That's where Ogee comes in. It's a certified organic beauty brand that delivers luxury level performance. Their Crystal Contour collection flips the script on traditional makeup. Instead of being mostly pigment and filler, it's made with nearly 90% skincare ingredients like green coffee oil, elderberry extract, and cold press jojoba. So instead of fighting your skin all day, it's working with it. The best part, Ogee is NSF certified organic, one of the most rigorous standards in the beauty industry. So every product is made without synthetic fragrance, artificial fillers, or unnecessary additives. The routine couldn't be simpler. Just three sticks. Copper for warmth, rose quartz for flush, and opal for glow. A full face in minutes. Lightweight, natural, and actually enhancing your features. So if you're ready to raise your beauty standards, Ogee's got you covered. Go to ogee.com unpaused and use the code unpaused for 15% off. That's ogee.com unpaused, and enter the code unpaused to get 15% off. Find your sense of place this spring with Pura. Each scent is inspired by memory and destination. From lavender fields in bloom to coastal mornings under soft sunlight. Designed to transport, the collection brings fresh, seasonal fragrance into your home. So every room feels like somewhere you'd rather be. Shop [e-mail].

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Welcome to Unpaused. So excited to have you guys here. But in case anyone who is listening has been under a rock and doesn't know exactly who you guys are, I. I kind of went through your high points in the intro, but what is your origin story?

[Kim Holderness]

We met in a bar where all normal people meet. No, we were actually television news reporters in the same market in Orlando. And we worked at competing stations and so we worked the night. So we did like 11 o' clock live shots and then TV news, business, local news. It's very incestuous. So like, we would all, like, collapse our live shots and then we'd all meet out at a bar somewhere.

[Penn Holderness]

So, Matt, on like a Tuesday?

[Kim Holderness]

On a Tuesday, yeah. So I thought his name was Ben for like the two. First two weeks I knew him. And then I saw him do the Worm at a nightclub and I was

[Penn Holderness]

like, it's a pretty typical story.

[Kim Holderness]

Back off, ladies. That man is mine.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

So was it love at first sight or. This might be a mistake, but I need to do this.

[Kim Holderness]

For me, it was love at first sight. But then he had a girlfriend and then I had to date, like, three guys named Steve in a row. And so we. It took us a little while, but once we, like, decided it was. It was pretty quickly. I think we were engaged within like nine months and then married nine months after that. So it went kind of fast.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, we started out friends, which I just thought would be, like, a smart way to get to know her better because, like, I never. I wanted to be. But she was on her tramp page that she was describing with the. With three consecutive Steves. And so you know, I. I was a sounding board for some of that. And I was dating people, too.

[Kim Holderness]

Like, this is a menopause podcast. And he just said, trampage. Okay.

[Penn Holderness]

And you're the one who taught me that wor.

[Kim Holderness]

Yes, agreed.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

I am going to have to steal that.

[Kim Holderness]

Yes. So, you know, ladies, you gotta kiss a few frogs, and then.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

And that's okay.

[Kim Holderness]

But once we started dating, it was very obvious that it was it. And then we. The rest is history.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

So you fall in love, get married. Are you still working as TV reporters at your respective stations?

[Kim Holderness]

I took a job as a correspondent at Inside Edition. And so we moved to New York. Oh, wow. And then he was working for ABC Sports espn, and so we lived there. So our daughter was born in New York. And then we ran out of money and space, so he took a job in North Carolina. So that's where we are today.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

So when did all of the Internet stuff start?

[Kim Holderness]

We had two small kids. He took some convincing, but then we did it. And then we did this Christmas Jammies video. Just sort of announced to our local, like, our friends, our family. Like, I thought that maybe, like, my Aunt Linda would, like, share it on Facebook and we'd get a few phone calls about it. It was a slow week, which, like, remember those? And I think every, like, the Today Show, Good Morning America, CNN, like, everybody ran that video. It got 17 million views in a week. And so that sort of changed everything.

[Penn Holderness]

We tried to use that video as the opportunity to, hey, let's reach out to other companies and we can help produce and do what the amazing people in this room are doing to edit and shoot. And, like, because we really were interested in that part. And the blowback kept being like, great, so when are you going to come in in your Christmas jammies? And we're like, no, it's not really what we want to do. It was very early in the. In the influencer years, and there wasn't really, like, a handbook on how to do it. Most of the people who were doing it were. That we talked to. It was like vloggers who really let people intimately into their lives and showed their children, like, all the time and the fights they got in. And those were most of the people we got exposed to. And that wasn't something that either of us were interested in. I mean, yes, our children were in these videos early, but we wanted to give them, like, agency and choice, which we didn't for the first one. We didn't realize it was gonna be this big.

[Kim Holderness]

Right?

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

You're just like, Making a family video that went viral.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

And I'll go ahead and answer the question. Like, we're still worried that we're gonna screw our kids up, and we probably

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

already have 100%, and they'll let you know.

[Penn Holderness]

But that wasn't the kind of content we wanted to put out there, so it took a while to figure it out.

[Kim Holderness]

We talk very openly that we did not know what we were doing. We put our kids on the Internet before they had the ability to consent. Any criticism of that from them or anybody else is very fair. We have asked our kids, and it is open. I'm like, we will delete any video. The Christmas jammies, any video you want. And we're logged in, hit delete. And they are like, no, it can stand. I do think it's tough to be a kid in high school and have your teacher say, oh, my gosh, I saw your parents video, like, in front of the whole class. And that's happened a couple times. So I think that's. That was not their favorite, so. But they also know it comes with a lot of good.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

So your videos, I love because for multiple reasons. And I love that you're really leaning into the menopause perimenopause space with the videos and your experiences. They don't feel like comedy about people. They feel like comedy with people. You know, like, you're not making fun of the experience. You're, like, actually talking about the experience in a different way. What's that been like for you guys?

[Kim Holderness]

Well, I think that just in general, our sort of family motto, our business motto is giving people permission to laugh. So that's at the core of what we do. And also, we never hunch down. And if we're going to make fun of something, we're going to make fun of ourselves. But also with the perimenopause and menopause stuff, it's hard because I don't want women to look at these characters I'm playing, maybe, or what we're doing and be like, oh, they're not capable of doing anything because they have brain fog. Because women are capable of a lot. And I don't want to weaponize menopause and make it seem so terrible.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

You're not at all. It's just relatable.

[Kim Holderness]

It's just. But there's, like, a fine line. We've deleted videos that we've edited because I'm like, God, this makes women seem like they're just incapable of handling life because menopause is so bad, and we still have to handle life. Yeah. You know, so it's kind of like a needle worth threading there.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

What are you seeing on the comments, like, on those videos, for the most

[Penn Holderness]

part, is thank you for helping me feel seen and understood. And do you have a camera in our house? And then the second most common thing is my doctor bleep this up. Like those that. Right. That would be number two. And that was, like, really eye opening to me, because I'd heard you say it. I'd heard her say it. But then hearing it from the general population, and we didn't even mention a doctor in the video. Yeah, but that's like, one of the main comments. Between that and meeting all of your great friends in Austin, that was very eye opening about, like, a real deficit in the world when it comes to healthcare.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

So on this podcast, we've had a ton of clinicians.

[Podcast Announcer]

A ton.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Mostly clinicians. We had two males so far.

[Podcast Announcer]

You're the third.

[Penn Holderness]

Let's go. And I'm a doctor.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

That's why I have this square on my blazer.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Okay. So my. On Instagram, we all look at our demographics, right? That's our bread and butter. And on Instagram, I am 98.5% female.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay.

[Podcast Announcer]

Okay.

[Penn Holderness]

And you don't want that. You don't want an echo chamber, right?

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

No, but nice, because the podcast we just started, shameless plug, is 40% male.

[Penn Holderness]

Oh, wow.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

So we got kids listening. So, like, you're talking to, you know, what about y'? All? Like, what is your breakdown on your demographics?

[Penn Holderness]

We're not quite 98.4.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

That's amazing.

[Kim Holderness]

I think we are, like, 85% women.

[Penn Holderness]

We are on. On our main platforms, YouTube, it's a little bit different. And, like, every platform has its own, like, favored gender.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

It's so funny, though. Like, there's a reason why we're 85% female. Do you want to know?

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Tell me.

[Penn Holderness]

Okay, well, first of all, Kim is amazing and she's the star, and I'm totally okay with that. But second of all, men don't know how to do social media in general. I'm just going to be stereotypical to the 40% here. If you guys, like, if men like our videos, like, if my friends like our videos, they'll text me, dude, your video was really funny. Thanks. Did you.

[Kim Holderness]

Did you hit that little heart button?

[Penn Holderness]

Do anything else? Comment? No. Am I going to let people know that I watch videos? Like, okay, so that's how we, as a business spread and grow into the algorithm.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

When we made mail friendly content. I'd get lots of text messages from my buddies, but it wouldn't do well because it wasn't making the algorithm because no one was commenting.

[Kim Holderness]

We were on vacation with, like, some of our best friends. We had a video. We had pre shot. It came out that day. And our friend, he goes, yeah, that's really funny. I took his phone and I hit the heart button. He goes, are people gonna see that? I liked that. I'm like, they are, Chris. They are. I'm like, because you liked it. He goes, I have to hit a heart button. Like it wasn't masculine enough or something.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

I mean, should we have, like, a little brew button or, like a. Or a dude button or like a.

[Kim Holderness]

Like a big, like, muscle?

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Like, make you feel like a big, strong fan?

[Kim Holderness]

Like a rucksack.

[Penn Holderness]

But the truth is, like, when it comes to our business on the engagement side, men don't feel compelled or even comfortable sometimes doing that. We talk about all kinds of stuff. Usually it's relationships. Most of the time, when men come up to us in airports and stuff, they say even if they. I think there's. Some of them are lying. Rather than saying, man, I love your videos. They're like, man, my wife really loves your videos. This one, this one, this one, and this one. I'm like, it sounds like you know about our videos too.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

My husband is obsessed with you guys in a. In a very healthy, healthy way. He talks about videos I've never seen.

[Kim Holderness]

I love it.

[Penn Holderness]

Oh, yeah, we do.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

And it's like the bro videos that you do.

[Podcast Announcer]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

With the other guys.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

You know, like, the algorithm is serving him completely different content than me. Like, the spontaneous stuff is like, your bro videos.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

That he loves.

[Kim Holderness]

He has a. Yeah. He has a crew of bros he gets to hang out with online.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

So when you decided to do some menopause focused content. Perimenopause focused content, because you're doing your actual real lives. Like, we worry. Were you scared? Were you, like, worried about pushback or.

[Kim Holderness]

It's interesting because we had an agent at one point. I was turning 40, and we started doing a lot of, like, I'm 40 content. This was almost 10 years ago, and this agent said, you really shouldn't be telling people how old you are, because if. If. You know, part of what we do just to be completely transparent is, like, we partner with brands and that, you know, brands are really turned off by that. So we got new agents, because what am I gonna do? Like, hide the fact that I'm aging We did have a discussion, and because it is, it is very sensitive and people get uncomfortable when women freaking age. And we just decided our channel, we focus on what's happening in our lives and we try to make it funny. What was ruling our house at the time was my perimenopause. And bless his heart, he came up with a name for her. Perry. And he's like, perry's here, huh? And so he even like wrote those sketches.

[Penn Holderness]

No, I got, I wrote the first

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

skit and I was that therapy for you?

[Penn Holderness]

So here's what it was. Connection to me. So it was. I'm like, honey, some of this stuff is funny. She's like, yes, I know. I'm like, well, listen, I'm gonna create this character. It's not you, it's Harry. It's Perry. So Perry's not you. And she's like, I love it. Let's do it. So I wrote it in very few notes from the, from the first draft. Kim is so, so, so good at poking fun of herself. She's the most self aware woman I've ever met. I said, I think that was like one of the things I said in our vows. Like, I knew this very early on. She is a wonderful woman who looks at herself occasionally as a hot mess and is super aware. Sometimes even real time, when she's, when she's acting irrationally, she'll say, yeah, I'm acting irrationally right now. And it is, it's great. And I've tried to be more about more like that myself. So in these videos, like, letting there be Kim that we all know, and also this other part of Kim that has to do with everything that's perimenopause

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

and may or may not have been terrorizing your household.

[Kim Holderness]

Right. And like, let's face it, it was Kim. Yeah, but that was Kim.

[Penn Holderness]

But we, before we even put it out, we laughed at it and felt connected. I wasn't fed up by it, but I was confused.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

About some things that were going on.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Yeah, let's talk about that. Because I think we have a very large audience that is not a woman, you know, listening to this podcast, which is new for what I put out there. And I know every guy out there who's has a wife who's starting or in the middle of this is like hanging on. So now you're the subject expert. Okay, what was it like? Like, you guys are in your 30s, living your best life, two kids, you're doing all this, you building this life together. And what was changing the first things

[Penn Holderness]

I noticed was there were moments that I think in the past, she would process in real time and move on from. And I think she was just having a difficult time processing some of those things, and a lot of them weren't really even things that were going on in her body. It was empathy she was feeling for other people or for the world around her.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Because perimenopause begins in the brain.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

And that resilience, change, that mental health that, you know, processing change. So. Yeah, I love the way you put that. The way she was processing things was. Was different. How did you. Did you notice that? Because you don't.

[Podcast Announcer]

When were you in it?

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Yeah, you're not observing it.

[Podcast Host Promo Voice]

You're in it.

[Kim Holderness]

You have to be able to zoom out. And so it's.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

I couldn't for a long time. Well, he was wrong.

[Kim Holderness]

Well, I. I knew that for a long time. Here's. Here's, like, my emotional capacity and my. My. My cup. And I could handle everything that was being poured into this. All of a sudden, my cup felt so small. It felt like I was like there was a fire hose being poured into, like, my capacity to deal with anything. I mean, I was, like, driving down the street shaking. I remember I was like, in a Whole Foods, and I was shopping, and it was, like, grabbing this spaghetti sauce and. And for whatever reason, like, that trick spaghetti sauce, right? Like marinara. Like, nothing. I put it down. I called Penn. I'm like, I'm coming home. I'm leaving my grocery cart and aisle three. And he's like, okay, got it. And I'm like, I don't know what's wrong with me. And I've had panic attacks before, but I was like, this was usually around triggered by something. This was freaking marinara. And he. He is the world's most sensitive, understanding husband ever. He's like, don't need to explain it. We're good. Just go lay down and go for a walk. Whatever you need to do. So everything, like, felt like I was being chased by a bear.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

And.

[Kim Holderness]

And I really thought something was wrong with me. So that started before any of the physical stuff started. And I was relieved to hear that, like, oh, that. That happens in perimenopause. I just thought I was going crazy.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

So when did you hear that, though? Like, when did someone say, hey, you

[Kim Holderness]

told me on the Internet, which is, like, going to make me cry.

[Podcast Host Promo Voice]

Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

I mean, even the postpartum depression stuff, like, there. There weren't women talking about it. They were talking about, like, how wonderful it was to have, like, a newborn baby. And I was like, I can't even walk down the stairs without, like, fear of tripping. And it was. It was so hard. And then perimenopause hit, and I just thought I was going crazy. I'm like, pen, I'm so sorry. You married me. Like, you deserved, like, somebody who's, like, happy and can handle life. And I'm so sorry. And I was, like, apologizing to my kids. I was like, you're. You have a mom that, like, can't deal. And then I went to my doctor, bless her heart. She's like, yeah, this is normal. And. But I walked out with nothing.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

You know, normal means common. Not.

[Kim Holderness]

Not. You should deal with this. So. Because I have a husband who, like, sorry.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Don't.

[Kim Holderness]

Like, I'm trying to, like, get them back into my eyes so my scare doesn't run. Thank you. Thank you.

[Penn Holderness]

I would have given you this, but it's totally fake. I just, like. I just reached for. It was like, well, shit, this must be a cheap laser. What's the point of it? Sorry. Like, back to you. It's not about me.

[Kim Holderness]

Well, because we, you know, have the access. I booked an appointment with, like, a functional, right? Anybody. Anybody, like a fun. And so we could pay for that. And that pissed me off, too, because I was like, our family, like, he's like, absolutely. Do what you need to do, Pay for what you need to pay for. But not everybody can do that. And so now it's being talked about. People. People are getting it covered by insurance. But like, four or five years ago, and then she, this sweet angel of a doctor, gave me progesterone. And I was like. Like, I was like. I didn't feel like stabbing people all the time. There was more to it. Couple years later, yeah, a couple years later, I ended up. She recommended I go talk to a psychiatrist. We unpack some stuff. I am on, like, a wonderful combination of medicine there. I'm loving life. Everything is great. But without that, I just look at women walking around this world that are being told this is normal, and walking out of the doctor's office with a pat on the back.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

The most likely time for a woman to commit suicide is between 45 and 55.

[Kim Holderness]

That feel right? Like, that feels awful.

[Podcast Announcer]

There's a reason.

[Kim Holderness]

But I have to say, like, I was have the happiest marriage. I have healthy kids. I have a wonderful life. And I'm like, I want out of here. Like, I can't. I can't.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

I hear it. It happened to me, I hear it. Not to that degree, but I. I've heard this in patience. I have a good life.

[Podcast Announcer]

Everything's great.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

I built this life. I built the life of my dreams. And I'm not okay.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah. And so I'm here because of some good pharmaceuticals and a loving husband. Sponsored by Pfizer is sponsored by whoever wants to sponsor it. Right. Whatever I'm taking. And I got on my journey and it got to the point where we were able to see the funny in it. And that is sort of what we do, is that we get to look around at our lives and say, like, is that funny? And when you zoom out and you're out of crisis, and I was out of crisis, that point, I'm like, it is kind of funny what we're going through here. And anybody my age is probably going through this in their marriage because it becomes a family issue at that point.

[Podcast Announcer]

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[Lloyd Lockridge]

Hi, my name is Lloyd Lockridge and I'm the host of a new podcast from Odysee called Family Lore. In this podcast, I'm going to have people on to tell unusual and sometimes far fetched stories about their families.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

I've heard my whole life that she invented the margarita.

[Lloyd Lockridge]

And then we're going to investigate those stories and find out how much of it is true. He gets a patent one month before the Wright Brothers. Oh my God. Please follow and listen to Family Lore an Odyssey podcast, available now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your shows.

[Podcast Announcer]

This episode of Unpaused is brought to you by Alloy Health. We talk a lot about hormones affecting mood and energy. But they also play a major role in your skin collagen, hydration, elasticity, and in midlife, when hormone levels start to shift, your skin changes too. I first heard about Aloi through a close friend who is a dermatologist. She shared how few products truly address hormonal skin changes. Once I understood that aloe's approach is rooted in hormone science and physiology, I decided to try it myself. It changed the way I think about how skin care is at this stage of Life. Aloe's M4 line includes the M4 face cream, M4 face serum, and M4 eye cream. These are prescription strength formulas made with Estriol, the gold standard hormone. Your body stops producing naturally, and they are backed by clinical research. Women are seeking smoother looking skin, improved firmness and a brighter, more even tone. If your skin is changing, your skin care should change too. With alloy, you consult with a doctor and receive expert guidance and have your treatment delivered right to your door. Head to myalloy.com and use code MCH20. That's MCH20 to get $20 off your first order. So tell me your side of this.

[Penn Holderness]

She did not conceal any of this. I don't believe. I think that we do. I think, I think we talked about it pretty openly. I think part of me was trying to help her diagnose because there's, you know, there is a lot of, like, questionable, like, what's going on. So just medically, you'd had some pretty intense menstruations throughout most of your life to the point that you thought you might have endometriosis or now it's endomytosis or whatever.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

And so the endometriosis is the evil twin.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, right. So I had been trained with some, some moments that you even said, like, shit's going down. This is happening right now. This is really heavy. Like, I'm feeling to the point where

[Kim Holderness]

he's like, it was Shark Week. Like, it was.

[Penn Holderness]

I know when Shark Week was like, I get that. I will say that, like, as. This is all happening, you know, like as, as a man who wants to feel connected and to feel intimacy, like that's gonna ebb when this happens. And so I felt like I could be useful and helpful, but also lonely because I can't super relate to what she's doing and I've gotta give her more space than I'd like to. I think that's like, stuff that it's all passed and gotten a lot easier. And I've learned that like, intimacy Means something different from when you're 20, and it's just all the time.

[Kim Holderness]

So that's exactly how we did it, guys.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah. But, like, all of that was hard. And I, like, actually feel for men who say the same thing, because I think that there's shame that comes with it, and that limits communication and intimacy. And there's also just, like, fear. Like, is this what it is? What she is, what we are?

[Podcast Announcer]

What would be your advice?

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

I mean, there's guys listening, going, okay, bro, you know, you're the only dude talking about this on the Internet, so let's.

[Penn Holderness]

You know, I think finding new connection points, like, this is a really good opportunity to do that. I think that our Disney prince nature of wanting to, like, sweep someone off their feet and be the solution, this is going to be the time that you learn that that's not what you do. This is where you listen and you empathize and. And you're there for her in ways that you're not normally there for people. And, like, that's really strengthened our relationship, I think, me learning that also. I got a really good piece of advice. We had this guy on who does. Like, he's a guy who's on TikTok talking to other husbands about perimenopause.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Oh, I think on who that is.

[Penn Holderness]

He's amazing.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

So he said something about intimacy. I'm not just talking about sex. Like, intimacy and connection. That, like, it really only works when the woman is relaxed. For guys, we could be skydiving.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Yeah. And it's a good point.

[Penn Holderness]

And everything's gonna work, but, like, imagine all the things that's going on in their body and understand how impossibly difficult it is to just be relaxed. And so that was, like, a really cool piece of advice to me as well, because I was feeling that.

[Podcast Announcer]

Do you feel like this was the

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

hardest season of your marriage?

[Kim Holderness]

I do believe for Penn, his. His love language is physical touch. And when I was in my feelings, I did not wanna be touched at all. And so I had to communicate to him, this has nothing to do with my love for you. I love you so much. Cause he wants. When he sees me in panic, in crisis, he wants to. And there are moments. I love that there are moments I want, like, just, like, wrap me up and hug me.

[Penn Holderness]

But you're usually, like, 3 to 6ft.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

You're like, Covid. You like that sort of amount of.

[Kim Holderness]

I'm like, I want you here, but I don't want you touching me.

[Penn Holderness]

Right. Exactly.

[Kim Holderness]

And Once he sort of realized that that's the way I could operate, I will say our relationship is deeper and better. I think we're closer now than we have been. But, yeah, there were some bumps in the road because it's hard not to take it personally. Right. Cause you do go from having a very nice, regular sex life to, you know what, I just can't be touched right now, or any sort of. Not. Not just like having sex, but any sort of that. That intimate feeling when you have true connection with your partner. Because sometimes I just needed to be alone. And I think he got it quickly and he learned not to take it personally. But, yeah, it's hard not to take it personally.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

It.

[Penn Holderness]

So here's the toughest part. Like, she's been incredibly communicative about it, and I. I believe her. Like, I don't think, like, the first instinct you get when something like this happens is it's me. Right? Every guy, they get that. And then. And the next instinct, which you don't want, is it somebody else? Like, is there something else that would make her happy?

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Right.

[Penn Holderness]

Does she maybe want to be with women? Like, you know, that's.

[Kim Holderness]

I mean, sometimes.

[Penn Holderness]

And so, like, I'm completely at peace with trust and totally understand that she's saying what she believes, but then my subconscious has no control over that. So I have, like, crazy dreams, like, from time to time, and I can't do anything about that. But for men, that I would guess is the biggest challenge.

[Kim Holderness]

And there are a lot of men out there, and Penn hears from them that do not believe whatever is happening here.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, that's a whole different thing.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

And that's a divorce waiting to happen.

[Kim Holderness]

And, like, that's a different podcast. But he. There are some men that have walked up to me, like, yeah, that menopause stuff, right? Like, she's full of it. Stuff like that. And Pen is a good ally, ladies, because he will say, actually. And he'll. He'll. He'll throw some science at them.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

So do you feel like you're on

[Podcast Announcer]

the other side now?

[Kim Holderness]

Of what?

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

I guess we're never going to get to the other side. So. I didn't know I was going through perimenopause when I was going through it. Like, we learned how to. How to pronounce it in medical school and residency. And, like, it's a transition.

[Kim Holderness]

What's that?

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

I'm still having periods. I don't know. But, like, I couldn't stand for him to hold my hand. I was aggravated with everything, and it was an inflection point in a lot of things. Our parents were starting to get old and need us more. Kids were becoming teenagers, like many of us in this stage. There was all of this other stuff. And then my resilience wall was coming down. You know, my brother was dying. And I do feel like now, now we're totally empty nested.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

And he's retired from his job. He's now helping me and our business. You know, I just feel like we're lifers now, you know? But it was in that perimenopause time and figuring it all out that I felt like that was the furthest apart we were in those times where I was like, are we gonna make it?

[Kim Holderness]

Got it.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Like, am I better off not in this relationship that did bubble up a few times.

[Kim Holderness]

I do believe we are on the other side of whatever that was. I still very much am aware of what's happening. I'm very peri right now, like very perimenopausal. I am medically really like tapping my foot, waiting for actual menopause because I'm hoping that it's coming.

[Podcast Announcer]

I promise.

[Kim Holderness]

I know.

[Penn Holderness]

So you guys want it to come.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

It's, it's like as a clinician, it's treating a woman in perimenopause. It's like pinning the tail on a moving donkey, right? And you know, you get that tail on the donkey goes over here and then you gotta switch this and whatever. Like once they're postmenopausal, it is so much easier for me as a doctor.

[Penn Holderness]

Is there, like, do you. How do you know? Is there a.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

A blood test? Like, you know, medically can and goes

[Kim Holderness]

off outside your vagina.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Ye. The close for business sign goes up and that's good. So as far as what's going on hormonally, you flatline and that's like easier to resuscitate than, than. So blood test and listening to symptoms. But you know, the brain stuff calms down a lot. So my patients who like their main complaint was the mental health or cognitive stuff that is much easier to kind of manage in postmenopausal. And then the bleeding stops, you know, and so the, the okay, so it's

[Penn Holderness]

just your period stop getting your period.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Right?

[Kim Holderness]

That's, that's the.

[Penn Holderness]

And that coincides with subsiding some of these wonderful traits then, like, love you, but things that you don't like very much.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Oh yeah. And so, you know, once we kind of put out the fire, the management and stuff, you know, once women are postmenopausal we're focusing on the next 30 years. Like, at that point, her whole focus shifts to keep me out of a nursing home. You know, like the longevity stuff I got. Yeah. Look, I don't want to break. I don't want to lose my independence. So, like. And I know I have a window of opportunity here to set myself up for success for the next 30 years. So that's, like, the funnest part of my job. The most difficult part is helping her manage perimenopause.

[Penn Holderness]

Got it.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Which wasn't even a thing. Like, that was not a thing. We couldn't treat a menopausal patient until she was a year past her last period. So we just let her, like, wing it.

[Kim Holderness]

I feel so sorry for my mom and people in my mom's generation because they were told to get off estrogen and freaking deal with it.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

My mother was sedated. Like, I remember the besol pills, you

[Podcast Announcer]

know, that I had to go get

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

when she was having a moment, a crisis. And so, you know, I'd go get her little pills of Butasol and, like, go bring them to her. And, you know, it was probably a placebo effect. Cause, like, she'd take one, and immediately everything was better. So, you know, I was in medical school, and that memory bubbled up. Cause we were in pharmacology, and I was like, what? What? This is something they gave for seizures? Like, yeah, butalbital. It is a cousin of phenobarbital.

[Kim Holderness]

I mean, and if. And if I weren't on all the medicine I'm on right now, I would say, give it to me.

[Penn Holderness]

Is there, like, a connection between, like, how strong someone's menopausal symptoms are with, like, how. Like, how much empathy they're. Like, how much empathy they're feeling in the world around them? Like, how much.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

You know, no one's looked at that. What we know is if you had a really rough postpartum, like, if you had postpartum depression, postpartum, you know, anxiety, any of that stuff, you are a ringer for having a rougher menopause.

[Podcast Announcer]

The healthier you are.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Now, I hate to say this, because I have triathletes, you know, who just get gobsmacked through the menopause transition. But it tends to be the healthier your diet, the more you exercise, the more your, you know, symptoms will be worse. But, I mean, you know what? Throw that out the window.

[Podcast Announcer]

It is what it is.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

But I don't think anyone yet is looking at if you're more empathetic person. Then all of a sudden, your resilience, they pull out the carpet from under your feet. Like if you're going to suffer worse.

[Penn Holderness]

Okay.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Menopause, we have estrogen receptors, progesterone and testosterone receptors everywhere in our body. Someone's top priorities might be her joint pain. She is not functional, you know, but her mental health is fine. You know, it is such a cornucopia of like how this might hit you. So what I've learned through just taking care of menopause now is like, what are your goals? For you it was mental health. It sounds like, you know, like, you know, you're an athlete, you're, you're.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah. That's not an issue for you, like physically? I mean, besides wild periods, there's nothing for some.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

It's like I can't be bleeding through a meeting.

[Kim Holderness]

Right.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

You know, and changing a diaper, you know, with the bleeding I'm having or anemia.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah. Like I'm totally.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

15% of us won't have hot flashes. So, you know, just your thermoregulatory center is fine in the brain. But you know, we see across, historically, across the menopause transition, we double the amount of women who need an ssri. And what we're learning now is we probably should start them early, soon and often on estrogen, progesterone, whatever combination to stabilize mental health. And they may need something, an SSRI or snri, you know, one of the antidepressant, anti anxiety meds still. But we probably were over treating with some of these meds when really what they needed was estrogen.

[Kim Holderness]

Right.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

You know, or some, some hormone support.

[Kim Holderness]

I believe it. I had really wild postpartum anxiety depression. And then that's when I first got diagnosed with ocd. I'm probably glad I didn't know that a wild postpartum experience would have made because I think I would have been anxious about, about that. So.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Well, we've ripped the band aid off and now we're telling the world.

[Kim Holderness]

Sorry. Sorry, guys.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Talk to me some more about that because I had remembered in medicine back when I. This was when the Andrea Yates thing happened and it was, it was right by where we were training. So she was in Clear Lake, 20 miles from Galveston.

[Kim Holderness]

Do you remember this?

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Andrea Yates drowned her children. She had postpartum hallucinations and she heard voices telling her to drown her children. Anyway, so, like it was that or you were fine. I was not taught anything. In between, we had screening, like we didn't want to Miss the woman who was gonna hallucinate and like, destroy her family, you know. So we were screening for, like the most severe symptoms, really. It was like, you'll be okay. This will pass, you know?

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

So I remember having intrusive thoughts with Catherine, my oldest, of her drowning. She's in a carrier, she can't swim. You know, like, there's not.

[Kim Holderness]

We're not near a pool. She's fine.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

I remember being like, at my six week appointment, I was asked, like, are you. Do you have visions of hurting your children? And like, oh, God, no. Like, that wasn't it.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

That's how we were screening. Are you thinking about hurting your children or someone else? Okay, no, check. Move on.

[Kim Holderness]

Move on. And it was actually our pediatrician. I think it was like our. My, like a 12 week appointment or something with my son. And Penn was there and I was having trouble nursing and I wasn't sleeping and like there was just so much going on. And the doctor came in with like a can of formula and it was like, you need to take care of yourself. You are there. And looked at him like, she needs to get some help. Because I was just like, he wasn't gaining weight. And it was this whole. And I was just could not handle it. And the doctor asked, how are you doing? And he was there because I couldn't drive because I was so afraid. I had visions of semi truck hitting our car. I couldn't walk downstairs holding him because I would, like, sit on my butt and scoot down because I would never hurt my. I had visions of the opposite. So it wasn't until the pediatrician flagged it. And then he drove me to a psychiatrist.

[Penn Holderness]

Should there be a better way to ask that question in the screening?

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Yeah, I mean, there probably is probably better now. But, you know, the way we were. This happened. We had no screening before. Right. We knew about postpartum depression. But, like, you know, it's so shameful. Like, the patients were so reluctant. I remember, like, people bringing in their, like, husband, coming with the wife and like, she's not okay.

[Kim Holderness]

But you didn't want to be the Andrea Yates. You didn't want to be thought of. Like, I could hurt my kids because,

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

you know, bitches be crazy.

[Kim Holderness]

Right.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

School of medicine.

[Kim Holderness]

And that's like when mommy bloggers were like a thing. And it was like 2008, 2009. And I was desperately seeking a voice that would saying, like, this is really hard.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

And I think women were afraid to say it was hard because they didn't want to be thinking like, oh, I'm going to go hurt my kid.

[Penn Holderness]

But it sounds, it sounds unnatural. Sounds incriminating.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Right, right.

[Penn Holderness]

Especially if you ask it that way. It may be something like, were you really surprised to get this thought that you quickly pushed away, but it's not what you really believe in? Yeah, that's probably a more accurate thing. Or it'd be best if the doctor was like, you know, I had this thought when I was. Because again, empathy is this way, like

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

making you feel, normalize it.

[Penn Holderness]

Empathy is how this movement is growing.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

It's you guys sharing your stories and feeling not broken, not alone. And like, there's a way to get out of it.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

I think that's the Internet, good and bad. As we've all learned, it's allowed the sharing of experiences that were kept hidden before and people going, oh, that's me.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

You know, I feel seen.

[Podcast Announcer]

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[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

So you got diagnosed with adhd?

[Penn Holderness]

Yes.

[Podcast Announcer]

As an adult?

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Not as a kid.

[Penn Holderness]

I was 21.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

How?

[Podcast Announcer]

College.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Oh.

[Penn Holderness]

How do you know what happened? Yeah, so I. First of all, I was on academic probation twice in college.

[Kim Holderness]

On purpose. I had an awesome time in college.

[Penn Holderness]

I had the ability to go to classes more than I actually did. But no, I mean, my, my Ritalin was my mom growing up, but way before anyone knew what ADHD even was. She helped regulate my emotions and she helped me get my homework done. She like, knew that I was smart, but that I needed some self starting skills, which she tried to instill in me. And then when that didn't happen, she just kind of said, here, come on, I'm going to hold your hand and do this with you. And so I was getting some bad grades in college, but I still was having an awesome time. I was at my grandmother's funeral in between my junior and senior year and she was like, the first time I had no grandparents on one side of my family. So there was this big beach trip that our family took for two weeks. And it was the most important week of the year, two weeks of the year for me because I really felt at home. And I think everyone had ADHD there probably. We all got along great. And so the family was having this talk about what we were going to do next in this room in Tarboro, North Carolina. And I started daydreaming about all the great times we'd had and like, what are we going to do now? And all of a sudden my Aunt Zell, she says, penn, I'm sorry, none of us can concentrate because you're chewing on a used fly swatter. So I picked up a fly swatter in East. There's a lot of flies in eastern Carolina in the summer. And I, while I was thinking, I put it in my mouth and I started chewing on it with no idea that I was doing it whatsoever. But it was like, whatever. That was a fidget for me. Right, right. And that was gross. And everyone laughed. I did not laugh. I felt like I went from, you know, you're a space cadet, you're an adorable space cadet to is there something fundamentally wrong with me? So I drove myself to a doctor and he diagnosed me very quickly.

[Podcast Announcer]

And did you even know that was a thing?

[Penn Holderness]

Yes, I had heard of it before.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Okay.

[Penn Holderness]

And did you feel like an alien before or after?

[Podcast Announcer]

I guess both.

[Penn Holderness]

I felt like an alien most of my childhood.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay.

[Penn Holderness]

I mean, I would chew on my shirt to the point that there was a saliva circle that went all the way around here. I had a lot of, like, acquaintances, but not a lot of close friends because I did not know how to let people finish their stories without jumping in. I had wild creativity and understanding of music that most of my friends didn't have. But when I was asked to take piano in a recital and sit and look at music, I couldn't read the music and didn't want to read the music. I just wanted to hear the sounds and just reproduce them. So like, in some ways, good alien, but in a lot of ways, just kind of bad alien. The most important thing was I cried all the time. Like, if something didn't go my way, it flooded me emotionally, and it went on way, way later than most kids. Like, it happened to me in high school sometimes. So that was probably in the playground society that I lived in. Probably the most alien that I felt.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

And then after you got the diagnosis, you felt you had a. You had a name.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah. But no one explained the emotional side of ADHD in the 90s, and I think they're just barely doing it now.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

I just felt like it was, like, all in reference to how you were doing scholastically.

[Kim Holderness]

Right. You know, that was the measure.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

It's not how you see the world or. This was. We need you to do well in school.

[Penn Holderness]

That's why I did it. And I. They gave me drugs. I took them. They gave me something called Dexedrine, which apparently is like, diet meth.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Yeah, you can cook it.

[Penn Holderness]

So I was on meth my senior year, and I got better grades.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

This is amazing.

[Penn Holderness]

They gave me no behavioral interventions or systems or anything. Understandably, like, this was. It was a medical model. They looked at a problem and they tried to fix it. And so it actually took quite a while to. To realize a. That I. The. The medicine personally was stunting my creativity. And all the music that I heard in my head, I didn't hear it anymore. And then much later, after I'd found a job that actually worked for adhd, which is. If you're watching us on any device like it's. Most of us have ADHD because it just is conducive. But much later, a lot like a, you know, a woman who starts getting overtaxed with a family and a job, like, stuff started falling through the cracks for me in my mid-40s, and that's when we started working on the book.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

How's the book going? And you guys have a new book, right?

[Penn Holderness]

We do. The book is growing great. It continues to just sell. People are interested in it, and we didn't expect.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

The book is.

[Penn Holderness]

Oh, it's called. Sorry, it's called ADHD is Awesome.

[Kim Holderness]

And we have a children's book. And we have a new children's book this year, too.

[Penn Holderness]

I know we're writing a bunch of books about adhd, which wasn't the direction we thought we were going to go in, but much like you, we thought we had, like, a hopeful, positive message around it. And adhd. Do ADHD and menopause have so Much in common. They've been. And I'm not even talking clinically like they're, they both need to be destigmatized.

[Podcast Announcer]

Yep.

[Penn Holderness]

They're both under diagnosed. They're in a lot of times not perfectly understood by healthcare and by doctors.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

Right. There's, there's deniers out there who say it's not a thing. You're just complaining. And then on top of that, apparently menopause gives you adhd, so. Or makes you feel like you've got, you've got.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

ADHD is the term we're using now.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

So, you know, your, your resilience drops, your coping skills drop, your whatever and you, you know, it's a spectrum. Right. I'm on the other end of it where I can hyperfocus and shut the whole world out. And that's great. When you're a doctor and studying for medical school is horrible. When you have children who are like, mom, mom, mom, mom, and you're so focused on what you're doing, but it's exploding right now, the conversation around changes in cognition and attention and focus in the menopause transition. And so have. What have you guys seen on your social media?

[Penn Holderness]

I mean, it's, it's really complicated because women are under diagnosed with adhd. Like more, way more.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

So it took like my kids both have it. Right?

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

And it's because y' all are tougher than us. You're, you're, you're better at internalizing your difficulties. So when you're a kid, the time that it's most often diagnosed, it's, my

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

kids were well behaved.

[Penn Holderness]

It's masked because they were pleasantly staring

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

out the window, not causing any distraction.

[Penn Holderness]

We're allowed. And we're doing karate in the middle of church. And so like we get diagnosed and then for women, they become, they become women. They become moms. They have to do so like they have to do sign up genius. And that's like the low key kryptonite. Kryptonite for adhd. And for some reason, like every time I'm on signup, genius, I'm the only dude who's on there. But I think those executive functioning challenges really happen when you become a working parent or even a parent. Right. And so then they're getting diagnosed at a later age, kind of close to perimenopause. I think those waters are muddied for us. We've, like that book was written largely for parents who have kids with ADHD and for maybe teenagers or 21 year olds, young adults. Who've been diagnosed. And so the parents are reading it and going, whoa, wait a, wait a second.

[Kim Holderness]

So many people. We had a girlfriend and she's 50. She read it just because she was like being supportive of us and she's like, holy shit, Penn, I think I have adhd. And she went, and she did the full diagnosis with a psychiatrist. She did everything. She goes, my childhood makes so much more sense. And a lot of women are being diagnosed when their kids get diagnosed. Cause they're filling out the questionnaire going, holy crap, that's me. That's not normal. And I think it's such a relief for women just to have a name for it.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Right.

[Kim Holderness]

And you could be gentler on your nine year old self. Right? Like looking. We love being part of the conversation on adhd. And finally, finally there are studies being done on women and girls now because all the other ADHD studies, it was mostly male participants.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

This is all of medicine.

[Kim Holderness]

All of medicine.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Unless you're pregnant on the woods.

[Penn Holderness]

Duke University, they have a women's center for adhd. So. Awesome. Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

But you know what? Medical studies, the good ones take a long time. So we would love to get a megaphone and talk more about women with adhd, but the studies are just lagging. What we do know is that genetically women are just as likely to have adhd, but they're chronically under diagnosed. And we've been, you know, we get to go to these book signings and we meet, we met so many people and the moms that come and hug Pennsylvania for their kids to be seen, but they have tears in their eyes because they just got diagnosed. But then they'll put the audio bug on, the husbands will listen to it and just be gentler. And I think once there's like an understanding, because when there's the mom who's ADHD in the house, that's sort of like falling apart, it's really easy to like blame her, you know, and if there's an explanation for it and if there's systems that could be put in place.

[Penn Holderness]

Listen, like when, when you give a kid or an adult or anybody, whatever the condition is an understanding of what's going on in their brain, like they immediately are more likely to want to get to work and try to make it less than an excuse to like, try to try to make the world around them bend to its will.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

I loved your book because as a parent, as a doctor, I was one of the not naysayers, but you know, I really felt like people who would medicate Their children. This was a cop out. You just need to love them through this, you know? And then I tried to love my daughter so hard through it and got tutors and a lot of screaming at the table. We went over this question 75 times. You still got it wrong. You know, whatever. And then finally, a couple of her

[Podcast Announcer]

teachers were like, you should go get her tested.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

You know. And my older daughter had had some dysgraphia, and, you know, we had gotten her all the stuff, but my youngest had this core group of friends she's still best, best friends with. It's the most beautiful relationship. And they were all straight. A perfect, perfect, perfect grades, all the things. And my daughter was always on the

[Kim Holderness]

struggle bus, you know, that's so hard.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

And she was growing up with this thought of, I'm not smart. And we took her to the pediatrician, and she said, let's get her tested. And I think you're gonna be able

[Podcast Announcer]

to give her a gift.

[Penn Holderness]

That's a really great way to put it.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

And I burst into tears because all of my prejudice and bias and everything I felt about this diagnosis and me as a failure as a parent, and I didn't love her enough, and I didn't provide the right structure or whatever she needed. You know, this. She's like, let's give her a gift.

[Kim Holderness]

How'd it turn out?

[Podcast Announcer]

She's fabulous.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

She's perfect. Her grades shot up immediately, which, you know, that's again, another problem parental thing of, like, if my kids are making good grades, I'm a good mom.

[Kim Holderness]

That doesn't equal well, being. Right. Yeah.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

And then my older daughter was diagnosed much later. She coped and had skills, you know, whatever. Until the mcat. That was her breaking point of, I need some help here, because I can't. All these systems I had in place aren't working for me to get through this next level. And then, of course, she's been on meds through med school and doing great. You know, everything. Everything is fine. But like, God, you know, in reading your book, I sobbed because I wish

[Podcast Announcer]

I would have had that as a

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

parent, you know, when they were little and I didn't get it, and I didn't understand, even though I was a doctor and I wasn't a pediatrician, but, you know, it just would have been so much easier for my kids, and I would have brought them in sooner and just been a better resource for them.

[Kim Holderness]

And, I mean, listen, we're not against medication at all. Medicine's been grace. But there's a lot of things that are just don't require medicate. Yeah, yeah. And in our school system it's like hard to get extra time. Our kid has ADHD and he has a learning plan. Extra time is like really hard to get. But I'm like wait, if they, if, if he can get a hundred on the test, if he has extra time, like why does it, what, what, what, what job is it he going to have to recite all of like pre calculus in like 30 minutes as opposed to 45? Anyway, it's.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Yeah, that whole timing thing is.

[Kim Holderness]

It's wild.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

It's wild.

[Podcast Announcer]

Amazing. Now it's time for the MIDI Pause. I'm Dr. Mary Claire Haver, host of the podcast Unpaused, bringing you a word from MIDI Health. Today we're facing the truth. Aging is inevitable. But how you age, that's completely in your hands. This stage of life is not an end, it's an evolution. And with the right strategies, you can reclaim control over your body, your mind and your future. I call it my Menopause Toolkit. And it starts with six foundational nutrition focused on anti inflammatory foods, protein and fiber movement, especially strength training and daily activity. Protecting your sleep because it is the backbone of your hormonal and cognitive health. Working with a knowledgeable provider on personalized pharmacology. Managing stress through mindfulness, gratitude and embracing progress over perfection. And finally, community. Because no one of us should be doing this alone. That's exactly what MIDI Health is built around. Care for women that focuses on maximizing health span and helping you with your menopause toolkit. Living longer, more active lives, not just longer ones. MIDI offers personalized care that leverages evidence based interventions tailored to your life. It's never too early or too late. Wherever you are in your journey, Midi Health will meet you there with the solutions you need. Women come to MIDI to address the symptoms they experience every day. MITI partners with you to find the right treatment, whether that's HRT or a non hormonal solution. Giving special attention to the four areas that matter most as we age. Hormone optimization, specialized nutrition, resistance training and targeted therapies. Progress starts with a personal plan. That's why the MIDI approach centers on a holistic combination of solutions from medications to lifestyle changes, with a care plan built for your body and your needs. By doing so, Mihdi Health is setting a new standard for health care. As the nation's fastest growing women's telehealth company, MIDI provides accessible insurance covered services designed by medical experts building on its leadership in perimenopause and menopause, Mihdi fills the critical health gaps women face at every age and life stage. If you want a clinician in your corner who truly understands what your body and brain need right now, that's exactly what MIDI is built for. Go to join MIDI.com join MIDI.com and connect with one of their clinicians today. Now you are half empty nesters.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Yes. How's that going?

[Kim Holderness]

You were texting me a few times, giving me a heads up. I was not prepared for how sad I was gonna be. You told me, but, like, until you live it. So my, my daughter's off to college, my son's at home. I think the lack of estrogen in the house, I felt like it's just like, I'm just very aware of how much testosterone there is in my house right now. I'm obsessed with my son. I love my son so much. But when she left, I was very unprepared for how sad I was gonna be. And it's just cruel that this happens during perimenopause.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Yeah, that's a lot going on at the same time.

[Kim Holderness]

It's a lot going on at the same time.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

How do you keep your relationship from turning into a shared Google calendar since you're working together so much?

[Kim Holderness]

Oh, that is such a funny question.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Like, who makes the decisions on what you're gonna do? I know you have managers and all

[Penn Holderness]

that now, but we're more like the making the concept creative. So that's been really useful. Still, the question is a good one because it's, it's hard to be off sometimes. Like, even when everyone's done, you go to work unemployed every single day because whatever it is that you put out is out. And then whatever is next is. It's, it's, it's not like a six month lead time like a movie. It's one or two days. Like, what's next? And so for that reason we've talked about this, like, the challenges of going to dinner and like, not talking about work.

[Kim Holderness]

I think we were a lot better about it. I think we are still married because we have Emery, Sam and Desmond who work with us, and they take a lot of the. Just the work part of it out so we can stay married because. And when it was just the two of us, it was, that was really hard and it was all we talked about. So now we challenge ourselves. Like, we go out to dinner and we don't talk about, like, work. But now our next challenge is to go out to dinner and not talk about word or the Kids.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, that's. What are we gonna talk about?

[Kim Holderness]

And it gets kind of.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

Like, I literally bought conversation cards.

[Penn Holderness]

No, those are great.

[Kim Holderness]

It was great because I asked a couple questions and it got off of. I'm like, we've been married long enough that I need conversation cards. But it was.

[Penn Holderness]

It's like conversation Viagra. No, seriously, like, it's.

[Kim Holderness]

It got things going.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Oh, my God.

[Podcast Announcer]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

It's hilarious.

[Kim Holderness]

And it was. It keeps. It keeps the dinners from spiraling into like. Okay, but then he has a basketball game when we get back. But then we have to leave town on Saturday.

[Penn Holderness]

Last night.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Yeah. Okay. This is gonna end like he's 16.

[Kim Holderness]

I know.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

And then what are you gonna talk about?

[Penn Holderness]

I mean, so the big things you talk about at dinner are work, kids, extended family. Just like other people.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Parents, our parents, whatever.

[Penn Holderness]

I get, like, if she asks me, I can talk about space and science fiction for six straight hours, but that's a one sided conversation.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah. I actually pulled out my camera because we were having a dinner. It was like, no works, no kids. And then I asked him about the book.

[Penn Holderness]

Sure, I'll talk about Quantum Entanglement.

[Kim Holderness]

He's the book he's reading. And he was talking for so long, he didn't even realize I'd taken up my phone and hit record. Because he was just. If you need filler on a podcast, he can come on and talk about space for a really long time. So. But I try to be interested in it because he's interested in it, but I'm. This is a lot.

[Penn Holderness]

I know, I know. So. But it's a good question. But honestly, when she got the conversation things, even like the book of Questions, I think everyone who ever, like, went to a camp where they were like, trying to hook up with a girl at a Christian camp, but you wanted to ask him a question. Like, you probably have like, wait, that was too much information. There's this thing called the book of questions that would, like, is a really good way to get to know people better.

[Kim Holderness]

How many girls you hooked up?

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

I mean, you guys have got to make your own set of conversation cards for middle aged. Like, over the hump.

[Kim Holderness]

Yes.

[Penn Holderness]

You know, that's a good idea. We're going to call it Conversation Viagra.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

I need commission on this. Yeah, Conversation Viagra. Like, you know, for those of us who make it over the hump.

[Kim Holderness]

Make it over the hump.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

I mean, and then what are we going to talk about for the next 30 years?

[Kim Holderness]

Honestly, I'm very excited we're going to do this. I know I'm obsessed with my son. I am going you're going to have to, like, peel me off when he goes to college, but I am looking forward to that time in life.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

All right, thank you so much for coming on on pause.

[Kim Holderness]

Well, I'm very thankful for you and all the work you're doing, and I'm just. It makes me so sad that my mom didn't have a you, you know, way back when. So thanks for what you're doing and thanks for having us here.

[Penn Holderness]

And I'm glad to see you haven't lost your phone.

[Podcast Announcer]

Thank you.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

My hero.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah, he's good like that. Well, thanks for having us.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

All right.

[Podcast Host Promo Voice]

You can find more information about Kim and Pin books, podcasts and social [e-mail] you can find full episodes of Unpaused on YouTube at. Dr. Mary Claire, I'd love to hear from you about this topic and anything else that's on your mind. You can find me on Instagram @Doctor Maryclair and get honest and accurate information on health, fitness, and navigating [e-mail] My new book, the New Perimenopause is available now everywhere you buy books. If you're loving this podcast, I have an important request. Please take a moment to follow Unpaused on your favorite podcast app. Following and listening is what pushes this information to more women who need it. So if this podcast has helped you feel seen, understood, or supported, hit follow right now so you never miss an episode. Thank you for being here with me. Let's keep going. Unpause Unpaused is presented in conjunction with pod people. I'm your host, Dr. Mary Claire Haber.

[Podcast Announcer]

The views and opinions expressed on Unpaused are those of the talent and guests alone and are provided for informational and entertainment purposes only.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

No part of this podcast or any

[Podcast Announcer]

related materials are intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Perimenopause is not early menopause. It is its own distinct biological phase, and it has been largely ignored. My new book, the New Perimenopause, is about the seven to 10 years before periods stop a transition that is anything but gentle. Hormones fluctuate wildly, and for many women, this is when anxiety, brain fog, sleep disruption, weight changes, mood shifts, joint pain, and that unique, unsettling feeling of I don't feel like myself anymore begin long before anyone says the word menopause. Perimenopause often starts quietly. It shows up in the brain first, then the body, then everywhere else. And all too often, women are told nothing is wrong. I wrote the New Perimenopause because you deserve answers before things spiral, you deserve care before burnout, and you deserve a clear roadmap for a transition that medicine has ignored for far too long. The New Perimenopause is now available everywhere. Books are sold. Learn more and order your [e-mail].