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unSeminary Podcast
From 800 to 2,500: Growing a Multi-Ethnic Church with Limited Staff with Sarah Hooley
00:44:58
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- [00:03]
A
Do you feel like your church or school facility could be preventing growth? Are you frustrated or possibly overwhelmed at the thought of a complicated or costly building project? Are the limitations of your building becoming obstacles in the path to expanding your ministry? Have you ever felt like you could reach more people if only the facility was better suited to the needs of your community? Well, the team over at Risepoint can help you. As former ministry staff and church leaders, they understand how to to prioritize and help lead you to a place where the building is literally a ministry multiplier. Your mission should not be held back by your building. Their team of architects, interior designers and project managers have the professional experience to incorporate creative design solutions to move your mission forward. Check them out@risepoint.com that is RisePoint with an E. While you're there, schedule a free call to explore possibilities for your needs, the vision, your future, that sort of thing. Risepoint believes that God still uses spaces and they're here to help you again. Reach out to them today. That's RisePoint with an e.com RisePoint.com and Schedule A call today.
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B
Welcome to the Unseminary Podcast, the place where church leaders get practical insights, tips and strategies for ministry growth. Today you're stepping into something bigger than just a conversation. This podcast is part of a bold mission to help 100 churches grow by 1,000 people. Whether you're dreaming of increasing your impact in your community, empowering your team, or reaching more people with the message of Jesus, you're in the right place. We're here to bring you the stuff you wish they taught in seminary, ideas and tools you can put into action this week to see transformation in your ministry. Let's dive in.
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A
Hey friends. Welcome to the Unseminary Podcast. So glad that you've decided to tune in today. This is going to be a jam packed episode. You're going to want to buckle up. We're talking about a lot of stuff today that applies to your church that I know will be super helpful. Excited to be talking to Sarah Hooley. She is the executive pastor at a church called City Church in Fort Wayne, Indiana. This is a church you should be tracking with if you're not. They were founded in 2016 by lead pastor Chris Fried Freeman. It's a diverse church in a city that is for the city with multi ethnic, multi economic, multi generational community. It's really God's doing some incredible things here and you're going to want to track along with that. And we've got Sarah on the show to help Us. Sarah, welcome to the show.
- [02:39]
C
Thank you so much for having me. It is a privilege to be joining you today.
- [02:44]
A
Oh, this is going to be wonderful. I'm really looking forward to learning from you. Why don't you tell us a little bit of the city church story kind of set up. Tell us a little bit about it, what's going on, Give us a sense of what's happening at city church.
- [02:55]
C
Yeah, so we are a nine year old church plant. We were set up tear down church for the last eight or so years. It's seven and a half. We've moved. We bought a grocery store in 2020 and it was being used as a warehouse and so we bought it and then the pandemic happened and we're like well we still have a warehouse occupying the space. Maybe at some point it'll become a church, we don't know. And then it was just about a couple years ago that we then started a capital campaign and went to develop the space. It's 60,000 square feet. We developed about 40,000 square feet of it for our church. Thinking man, that's going to, we'll be set for a good long time and we are out of space already. And so we moved from two services to three and now we're just, excuse me, trying to figure out what do we do. God has just been moving in incredible ways. Like we have from the, from the start been very intentional about wanting to be a multi ethnic, multi economic, multi generational church. And where we planted has been very intentional. So even where we were for setup and tear down and we were right in the heart of the city where it was the most ethnically diverse within Fort Wayne. So Fort Wayne is roughly about 66% white in the city as a whole. But in our neighborhood specifically it's more 40% African American, 20% white, 20ish percent Hispanic. And so it is a much more racially diverse area. And that is, has been very intentional from the beginning. And so our location now is. It's just been beautiful to see how God has really drawn people from every background. And you know, anyone who's been a part of a multi ethnic church knows that that that's a messy process. It's, it is incredible to see though the, the beauty and of what God can do when we are, are not just attending a church together but really in community with one another and with people who come from radically different backgrounds and, and how that can really bring about a lot of healing in our stories and in our, in our relationships. And so we have Grown since moving into the building. We were about 800 people, um, when we were set up, tear down. And then once we moved into the building, it has just been exponential growth. Um, so we, we have grown very quickly and just tried to keep up with all of it. Um, one of the things that I've, I've just loved about city church is it's very intentional about reaching those who don't know Jesus. And so that really comes from our, our lead pastor, from Pastor Chris Freeman, his heart for the lost. Um, so a lot of our growth has not been transfer growth. It's not just people moving from church to church, but really those who've never set foot in a church, those who are, or who are really far from Jesus. It's been a long time and the greatest evidence of that that we've seen is we are on Track to have 500 baptisms this year.
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A
Wow.
- [06:01]
C
That has just blown our minds. Like we, we had to move up the frequency of our baptisms to every six weeks because we just could not.
- [06:10]
A
We'Re not baptizing enough. That's amazing. Wow.
- [06:14]
C
We're about 4:30 right now and I, I have over 70 people registered for this next upcoming one in December. So it is just, it has been a wild ride of yeah, that's great seeing God move in such phenomenal ways and, and just trying to be faithful along the way of how do we steward these people well, how do we continue to point them to Jesus, how do we encourage them to grow in their faith and to take those next steps of what it looks like to follow Him?
- [06:42]
A
So yeah, it's so good. There's a ton we could, we could unpack there and maybe we'll have you on in the future to talk. I, I, you know, we've said it in the past on the podcast. Every zip code in the country is more diverse today than it was 10 years ago. And 10 years from now it will be more diverse. And our churches need to continue to progress towards reflecting the kingdom of God and being, as you're saying, multi ethnic. And so there's a ton we could, we could learn from you on that. Maybe we'll have you back in the future to talk about that because that is definitely a thing I think we all can, can learn from. But I'd love to kind of key in on what you were talking there about. Hey, your church has a heart for which I think lots of churches do have a heart for reaching people who don't know Jesus. But it's like actually happening at Your church, which is incredible. So what were some early signs, you know, that you realize, or what are some of the signs that you realize, oh, this is actually happening. Like, we're actually reaching people. Baptism is one of them. Can you think of any other signs that were like, oh, we. We're reaching people who. Who. This is a brand new thing for them?
- [07:41]
C
Yeah. So, I mean, baptism was definitely a big sign of, like, wow, these are. These are people who are. Are new to following Jesus and taking that. That first step. And in our conversations with people who are preparing to be baptized, that. That was a part. It's so funny. Just. Just this last week, somebody posted on their Facebook page, city Church Choir is better than the club. For real. And I love it. Love it.
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A
That's great.
- [08:06]
C
We don't have. We didn't have a choir. It's our worship team. But the fact they don't even know the words.
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A
They don't know the words.
- [08:12]
C
And, and the comments after that, like, it. It truly was showing that we. We are drawing and attracting people who. Who, like, they've never really considered going to church. And then in our conversations with people as they've. As they've realized, like, man, I do want this. I want to follow this Jesus. Like, this makes sense. This is incredible. But you just can't assume anything. Like, they. There's no foundational understanding of what that looks like. There's no. And I think even. Just. There's no understanding of even, like, what some sins are. Like, there's just not. Like, I didn't even. Not even realizing that, like, that's not a good idea to continue. So we've had. We have people who are like, yes, I want to follow Jesus. And then they're still sleeping with their girlfriend. They're still, you know, like, it's like, oh, I didn't. I didn't even know that that was something that you should do. And so really being able to. To come alongside and say, okay, man, we. We have to go back to the basics. We can't assume anything. It's gonna. And it really has set the tone even in just the way that Chris preaches. And all of our pastors preach that we don't make assumptions when we're talking about scripture. So allowing there not to be any barriers or. Or anything that would create a place where people would feel like, man, like, everybody else knows what he's talking about, but I don't. And so, like, just the way that you set things up and explain things and introduce people so you don't just assume that everybody knows who Joseph is from the Old Testament. Like you have to be like, hey, this is this guy. And so I think that that has led us to like, Chris does such a great job on Sunday mornings. But man, there's so much more that we need to do as far as for people to truly learn what it means to follow Jesus when they don't have much of a background. Like it's going to take some more intentional discipleship that, that we do. So that, that has been really a process of, of recognition. Recognition that we even people who are coming on a Sunday, they're excited about Jesus. There's still some gaps there.
- [10:13]
A
Sure. I'd love to talk. We're going to get into the discipleship question, but I just want to pause just before we get there. And so what do you think God's using to help your church? Engaged? You know, there's in different circles of the Christian world, it's called different things. Unchurched people, seekers, people don't follow Jesus people into the faith. You know what, so the teaching, I agree that's like a best practice around, you know, taking time to explain. It takes three sentences to explain. Instead of just saying, well you all know Joseph using the example, which is just lazy preaching, you should take a few sentences, explain it. But what else is God using, you think to, you know, to help your church reach so many unchurched people.
- [10:53]
C
Yeah, you know, so we, we really have, the teaching is significant and that's one of the things that I have just been blown away. So I grew up as a pastor's kid, went to Bible college, went to seminary, like, yep, biblical, like good, solid biblical teaching is such a huge priority for me. And the thing that I think has been unique is that Chris has a way of communicating with those who have never been in church and, and helping them to, to see a clear picture of who Jesus is and challenging the deep disciples, those who've been following Jesus their whole life. And yet man, the way that he brings light to scripture and, and even just like points out some like this is what it means to live this out that has made such a big difference. And then so we really have had this, this, this drawing of, of those who have been followers who then can invest in those who are new believers. But also we have, and, and it is beautiful, like a really dynamic worship time. That is incredible. And, and one of the things that's unique about it is it's because we're multi ethnic. You can't just go in one kind of genre of music. Like, it really is a blend. And so there's something about it that it. It's not all of anyone's preferences, but you're like, like, I love this part of it. And then, well, this part's new and different, but okay, I can, I can get on board with it. And so I think those, that combination. But there's. There's another factor, and that's. That really is in the culture that's been set in how we are a welcoming church. And so our connections director is somebody who came to faith in our church. So she, she started following Jesus like she had no church background whatsoever. Started following Jesus, started really getting growing in her discipleship. Her name is Victoria. And it's. It has been such a beautiful thing to see how she has. Has such a heart for Jesus and heart for others. And so she's continued to invest in her team in, like, how do we make people feel welcome from the beginning? How do we not just say hello and let them walk by, but, like, really see people? And, and she has really invested in her connection team on, like, how is that an opportunity for discipleship? And so one of the things is you can. You can join our greet team, you can join our parking lot team, you can join our coffee team and not be a believer. But the heart behind it is, like, is you're still investigating who Jesus is. Like, we hope that you're rubbing shoulders with someone who is following us.
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A
Make some friends, right?
- [13:24]
C
You have those conversations and that relationship has grown through that. And you're. You get a picture of who Jesus is. And so like, there, there. It's just this multifaceted thing that has happened that really is like, like, when you come, you're like, man, I want to be a part of this. And so we have, like, that's the crazy thing. We have people who are not followers of Jesus inviting their friends. Like, yeah, a hundred percent better than the club. For real. Like, they're inviting their friends to come and, and be a part of this because there's just something happening here.
- [13:59]
A
Yeah, that's good. Okay, let's talk about the discipleship issue. So you didn't say this. I said it. But one of the problems with the church in general is a lot of our discipleship systems assume a fairly high level of actually understanding of scripture. And our church shares a similar heartbeat. We'll normally see one of the things that New here guests come through in our church. We. We don't ask them a lot, but one of the questions we do Ask is for them to describe their kind of faith background before they came. And we're consistently above 50%. It's usually 60, 75% of people would describe themselves as something that we would label as unchurch. And so I understand the discipleship problem. In lots of churches you just assume people know stuff and they grow closer to Jes. But that's not the case. What, so how are you helping move people towards being fully discipled followers of Jesus? What does that look like for City Church?
- [14:52]
C
Yeah, so we, we do, we have loved using Alpha for, for those who really still are in that questioning phase and like they're not even sure and like they may not, they might, may not feel comfortable coming to City Church, but they would come to somebody's house and walk through Alpha. So that's been really great for those who are kind of trying to still discover who Jesus is, but for specific discipleship because we were realizing, man, there's just some, some gaps here. Chris decided to launch a 15 week discipleship course for young men specifically. And we really saw like we are, we are a pretty young church, I mean, always have been, but that there was some, some pretty serious gaps in not only like, what does it mean to follow Jesus, but even what does it mean, like what does it mean to be a godly man? And so wanting to have to bring along intentional mentors and people who can invest in these young men. So he invited people, but it was very high accountability, high expectation sort of class. They meet at 6am on Thursday mornings. That is not something everybody wants to sign up for.
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A
Yeah, no, not every guy wants to do that. I can say that.
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C
No, it is, it is a huge sacrifice. And he said this is going to require a lot of you. And um, they actually have a crazy, like if you are, if anyone is late, any single person is late, even five seconds, the whole group does push ups together and like just.
- [16:21]
A
Like, hey, okay, that's cool.
- [16:23]
C
Not in a shaming way, but in a, like, hey, we're inviting you to something great. And part of, part of following Jesus is, is it's gonna need incorporate discipline in your life. And so we have, we are called to have discipline. And so we're gonna, we're gonna really keep you accountable to this. And so he does, he, he talks through like, what does it mean to be a godly man? Talks about identity, talks about discipline, talks about integrity, purity, humility, servanthood. So he'll do a teaching and then they break off into groups with two leaders. So each group usually has about Six. Six guys who are participants and two leaders who are older men in the church who have. That Chris has identified and recruited. And then they have a small group time. So it has been so incredible to see how God is working not only through his teaching, but really through that accountability and like, digging into what does this look like in our lives. And, and then those leaders are. Are following up with them and encouraging them throughout the week. They. They do. They. They challenge. They come up with their own challenges. Sometimes they're like, okay, we're going to memorize this passage of Scripture. And then they. Then they like, all right, how did you met. Did you memorize this? Most of these guys have never memorized scripture Scripture in their lives. And so even though some of those practices have been really incredible and he. He calls the class act like men, and it really is so. And he makes it very clear this is not about talking about what. What is the difference between a man and a woman. This is talking about what's in a man and a boy. Like, we are calling you to be godly men and intentionally calling you up to. To live out as godly men, not selfish boys. Um, and so that. That has been beautiful. There's about. I think he had about 60 participants the first time he. He ran it with 25 leaders. And then this next. This. He. Currently they're. They're walking through right now, and there's 100 guys and 30 leaders. Um, it also requires. And they have to pay $100. And that is invested right back into them. Like, they're. It's for some resources that they are given. Um, but again, it gives that, like, hey, this is a high threshold. This isn't just a casual thing. They also cannot miss more than three sessions. If they do, they are asked to step away and if they can join.
- [18:34]
A
Again or whatever in a future time. So what. And is it the idea that it's going to rotate, like, kind of a couple seasons a year or something like that? How. What's the thinking on that? Like, how often are you going to run it? Or what's that. What's that look like?
- [18:47]
C
Yeah, so. So what we've done so far is the men's course is in the fall. And then after last, last fall, the first time that, that Chris did it, there was such an out. Like, a lot of the. The wives and the girlfriends and the people who were just connected with these guys, they were like, man, this has been so incredible. Like, what do you have for women? Like, when are we going to have our. Our course. And so that really sparked and I was like, I'm too busy to do this right now, but like, I can't not do it. So our kids, my kids, pastor and I developed Be Bold Women's, which was a complimentary course for women. And so the men is in the fall and the women starts in January and we go through the spring and do kind of a similar. We follow a lot of the same topics, although we did, we did choose some, some different ones, a couple of specific ones that we felt really convicted that like we do. One of our, our lessons is on emotions and like what is a, what is a healthy godly way to approach and process and, and how are emotions a part of our life? And we also talk about community. So there's just a couple of different, different topics that we, we walkthrough with the women. We also incorporated a, a women's conference as a part of it that we then opened up to the rest of the church so everyone in the church could come to the conference. We had our own, own people speaking at it, our own worship team leading worship, and we had about 300 women at this conference. And it was just, it was a great start, like jump start to our time together in the course. But then also with our larger community.
- [20:21]
A
There's a lot there I'd love to ask questions about. So my impression of city church, just looking in, I don't know your church well, but follow online and you know, I don't get the vibe from you guys that there's like, I don't know, like an overly machismo kind of like, you know, like in a negative way. Like, you know, you know what I mean? There's some churches out there. You're like, okay, they're like a little too much into the man woman thing. And, and I don't know how to say that nicely and not like step on people's toes. I, I don't get that vibe from you guys, but this, but you've, you've obviously taken, taken a gendered approach. Can you unpack that a little bit? Help me understand how is that. It's obviously been super helpful. So. But just kind of talk through that issue. Help me understand that. What's that look like for you guys?
- [21:09]
C
Yeah, we really saw their. There just was a need to have those intentional conversations really of older men investing in younger men and older women investing in younger women. And so there are things that there are conversations that you can have when it's just men that you add one woman into that mix and it's going to change some of those conversations and some of the things that, especially when it comes to kind of the harder accountability parts of, of those conversations, it's gonna, it's just gonna look differently if, if somebody's trying to impress somebody else, like that's gonna be an issue. But I think, I think really even though we are not a overly like machismo, there's, that's still a part of our culture. And so I think Chris really wanted to be sure that he, he tackled that kind of toxic masculinity approach. And, and like that is not biblical masculinity. Like this, this idea of, you know, I'm the man and we're, but like that's not what. And, and so really continuing to call them back to that, that being a true man is not the world's version of, of power and money and having the beautiful wife or girlfriend. It, it really is about following Jesus example. He is the greatest example of what a godly man looks like. So what does that look like? So that means humility and servanthood and sacrifice and laying down your life for others. And so how do we live that out? And then for our women it has been so powerful to be able to have those deep conversations and challenging them to live this out. And when you have people who are coming from, they don't have maybe those older women or men in their lives who have been investing in them and showing them what it looks like to follow Jesus or to live this out, it's still brand new. And so there's some space to have those questions be brought. And why shouldn't I return to this abusive boyfriend? Why shouldn't I? Like so like being able to deal with some of those really hard conversations in a really healthy way that, that comes back to scripture and comes back to like this is what God wants for you. And, and it's, and it's hard. Like following Jesus is hard. Like there is nothing easy about that. Yes. But it's so worth it. And, and I think that being able to put that in front of people. But you know, those are two courses that we have. We have lots of small groups and mid sized groups and groups that are, that are mixed gender and there's some beautiful things from that too. These two courses specifically are just a little bit unique in, in their approach.
- [23:43]
A
That's good. So as you've kind of watched this roll through as an xp, you know, go people go through these experiences. What, what kind of changes have you seen in the broader church culture? Like, has there, you know, what have you seen that, like, oh, hey, there's something happened, happening here that, that seems to be having a positive impact or negative I' Positive. That's been kind of impacting the church culture. Talk to me about that.
- [24:06]
C
Yeah, I, I, you really start to see just that, that growth, the idea that this is, you know, that, that view of discipleship, that's a long obedience in the same direction that that is what we are, are experiencing. You know, with so many people who are new believers, there are some great breakthrough moments. And that is worth celebrating. But it is a long process. And so I think really being able to come alongside and, and watch, watch those who are like, they were, they're excited about Jesus, they're pumped, they're going to lift their hands and worship. They're going to be like, join the team. But to go beyond that to, okay, what does this actually look like in my life? And to see them begin to make changes in how they actually live that out, that they're not just, okay, this is my Sunday thing, and then I go and I do my weekly thing. But truly changing. And that, like, that's profound. It's profound to see God work in such powerful ways. And again, it's not, it's never overnight. Like, there's overnight breakthroughs, but it's always a process. And I think that, that, like, watching the development of these courses is like, there's going to be things you're confronting in week one, and, and then you might still be confronting it in week 10, you might still be confronting it in week 15, but there's, there's growth and there's, it doesn't mean that they've been able to overcome everything. But you, you can see that, that change in them and that draws people. And so I think that we, we've been able to so clearly see even just the growth in the number of guys who, who joined the course the first time, and then the growth in the second, second time through that people are hearing about it and being like, I want to be a part of this. Like, I saw what it did in my friend's life. And like, that's like, I know it's 6am but it's worth it. I'm gonna make the, I'm gonna make the sacrifice. I'm gonna be a part of it. And so I think that, that, that kind of invitation to discipleship where you see what the effect it's having, and then that brings others in and they're like, I want what he has Like I, I know who Jesus is, but I, I, I don't want it just to be a, yeah, I know who Jesus is. I want to actually know Jesus.
- [26:19]
A
Yeah, it's fantastic. Friends that are listening in. I, One of the, one of the changes I for sure have seen in people who are arriving at our churches is this is a problem. When you've been at this long enough, like decades ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, people did kind of just stumble into church. Like that actually did happen. But that's not happening today. People, when they arrive, they're arriving with real questions and are looking for, they're not looking for us, they're not looking for our ideas. They want Jesus and they want to, they want to know what that looks like. So I love this, this idea of calling people to something that is a little more, you know, that's, it's not just the, like, well, we're going to try to make it super easy. That's not what it's about. I think makes a lot of sense. Well, I want to pivot to just a totally different conversation. As we were getting ready for this, one of the things that caught my attention and you're a humble leader. Jesus has formed your life. So like you didn't lead off with like your attendance numbers and all that. You talked about growth, but you didn't really go there. What, what are you averaging right now, attendance wise? What, where are you at?
- [27:24]
C
Yeah, we're about 2,500 to 2,600 right now.
- [27:27]
A
Okay, and how many full time staff do you have as a, as a team?
- [27:32]
C
Oh, I, we have seven full time staff. Now we do have some part time roles that are high level, but we are a skeleton staff.
- [27:40]
A
Yes. Okay, so to put that in context, like I, this is, I want to hear more about this. How, how are you doing that? So we, to put, make some context, the people are listening in. There's a kind of a, well, kind of oiled benchmark out there that says churches should really shoot for one to 75 attendees and staff. And you know, really great churches are maybe 1 to 100. Like that would be amazing if you could get that. I think the math on you guys is one to like 350 or something like that. Even if it's like, okay, those other equivalents, even if they end up being, say you have another three full time people in all those part time, so you're 10 full time equivalents, that's still like 1 to 250. So like this is a significant lesson, friends. We need to learn from. So I, it's like I really just want to say talk like what systems and philosophies make that happen. How do you, you know, how are you able to make that happen? Talk us through that.
- [28:43]
C
Yeah, well, we are trying to hire, so there are some roles.
- [28:46]
A
Yes. You got a long ways to go though. Even if you doubled your staff, you still would be like 1 to 125, which is still very high. You know, that's.
- [28:57]
C
Yeah. And this has been one of the unique things about being a multi ethnic church and a multi ethnic church that's reaching new believers. The, the, the financial support, it takes longer. Just like financial discipleship, it's a process and, and in a, you know, within our community there's a significant, like where we, our church specifically is, there's a significant number of people who are below the poverty line. And so that just means that we're, our budget is not going to be as large. But so like we have always. And I think part of it is going from that church plant model to even having an established church. Like we've always had to be scrappy. Like you always have had to. Like, I started as a volunteer and I wanted to do a women's conference. And then someone came and said, I heard that you're leading the women's ministry. And I was like, what? Like, I didn't. I just wanted to lead this women's conference. But just the way that, you know, we have continued to, to philosophically want to equip the body to be the ministers, that it's not just, oh, we can just hire somebody to do that. But for every staff person being so intentional about choosing staff members who can be equippers who are not looking to just do ministry, but who are looking to equip others to do the ministry. And so those who can develop and be leaders of leaders. And that, that really has been a part of our heart in the beginning out of necessity, but also as we've continued to grow, we've found there's just been incredible fruit because it calls the whole church body into being a part of what's going on. And so there is nothing more powerful and significant than saying like, yeah, I am, I am a significant like participant. I am leading within this church in, in a significant way that creates such buy in. And so like that has really made a difference in, in I think our church culture and, and in just people staying with us and saying like man, there's, there's something happening here. I want to be a part of it and being identified and like given the opportunity to lead in those ways. And so we are very, we are slow to hire because we're kind of a unique, we have a unique church culture and unique church body and we want our staff to reflect our church body and to, to have by. And so I would, so the majority of our staff really are people who have come from the church body itself. So we, we only have had very few outside hires because we know that they understand who we are. They, they understand kind of what we've been called to do. And so that has been the like we have one full time kids pastor for 400 children and she has an associate who is also very high level and she's incredible too. But they have done such an incredible job of ident. Okay. Within our kids ministry, within our volunteers, who are those people who, who can lead others and who have a heart for developing others. And so, so they've broken down the different areas and they have leads over each of those individual areas where they're doing some of the scheduling. So like identifying those administrative skills like people who have people skills as well as administrative skills. But so the role of our, of our kids pastor is to, you know, set the vision and invest in our leaders and then they are, then the ones who are, are working through some of those logistics of what it looks like within when it comes to staffing or when it comes to volunteers and being fully like it's a whole lot of children. We have a lot of kids.
- [32:28]
A
Yes. That's amazing. I'd love to double click on some of that there. So this idea of leaders of leaders does not surprise me that you know, I, I, it's like one of these, when I heard this, I'm like, I don't even know anything about this. But I know that you, you, the only way you get to that kind of ratio is you've empowered volunteers to actually lead lead things. There's a humbling thing you could do. Church leaders that are listening in do it, do a giant org chart. Spend two hours and do a giant org chart on a whiteboard. Like literally draw out who is, who leads who all the way down to every role in the church and then circle the people that are staff. And oftentimes what you find is there are no leaders of leaders that are volunteers and they're just that that's a, that's a key distinction. How do we get and how do we keep our staff being Ephesians 4 leaders, people who equip the saints to do the work. So give me some of the telltale signs that you, that you see in volunteers that hey, this person is, could lead at a high level and what does the equipping look like? How are you helping them step into that?
- [33:30]
C
Yeah, we really do view leadership as discipleship. And so, so even for our volunteers, we want to identify people if for them to step into a leadership role like that, that relationship with Jesus that, that strong connection to, to him is, is key. So like that is first and foremost across, across all of our leadership team. So even though I mentioned earlier that we have some of our serve teams that you can join the team and not be a believer, but for the people who are leading those people, we want them to be following Jesus and then, and then just looking for those who also love people and have that heart for like I want to have the conversations that you know, something is, is going on in someone's life and they're having a hard time. I'm going to follow up with them during the week. And so, so that love for Jesus, that love for people in some of these roles, it, it is some administrative ability. Like can you handle scheduling people? Like there's, there's just like are you able to complete some of those things, Some of the doing aspects of ministry? But even within our, within our high level leader volunteer leaders, like they're actually then finding other volunteers who are doing some of those roles as well. So I think that that has been a process. So it's, it's looking at who, who do we have in front of us. Like who are the people who are like bought in. They see the mission, they're, they're passionate about what we're doing, they care about what we're doing. And then inviting them into that next step of leadership. A lot of times it's we, we kind of give them a chance to kind of test it out first before just throwing them to the wolves so that they can kind of see like, like shadowing somebody who already is currently doing something like that to get their feet wet to kind of understand the scope of the role. We don't ever want to ask somebody to, to step into a role that they aren't, that they're like, I don't have the capacity for this. And so, but there's, there's lots of development still along the way of like conversations of like, of, of our actual staff members checking in with them and helping them to like navigate problems and helping them to, to think through like how to process. You know, they even are invited to bring feedback of like, hey, here are some things that we're seeing. Like how. What's a way that we can then approach that together? So like really they have a great voice into, into how things are being run.
- [35:52]
A
That's good. One of the tensions that happens in a lot of churches is staff. Our staff start to think like the kind of important people are people who have full time staff that report to them. There's like this insidious pull towards I'm going to build my little kingdom. And like this is really common. Like lots of churches struggle with that. It can be difficult. How are you developing your particularly the culture with your staff team to ensure that they stay focused on leading volunteers rather than, you know, just hiring people. Like, let's just hire somebody. How do we, how do, how are you, what are you doing there beyond the like, well, we can't afford it. There's got to be something else you're doing to try to help them out.
- [36:40]
C
Of the budget is really helpful.
- [36:41]
A
Well, because, well and yeah, but my pushback would be friendly pushback as, as one leader to another is like that resource things are going to get sorted out and it's going to come to a time where you have resources to be able to do that. And it could be very tempting to say let's just go quadruple the size of our staff. So how are you ensuring that the culture isn't going to do that?
- [37:02]
C
And so much of that is through our coaching, through the way that we talk about this. This is something like we have these calibrating conversations all the time of this is who we are and this is what we're about and this is what it looks like to lead here. That we, and that, I mean to be totally candid, like that has been a challenge where we had a staff person and as we grew could not make that transition of, from doing to leading others and delegating. And so like that, that is a challenge of and just thinking like, oh man, all we need to do is just add more staff and then I would be okay. And instead of really recognizing like no, our, our heart behind this is inviting the church to be the church that, that letting them know that that priesthood of all believers like we are all called to do ministry. Ministry is not just for those who have a degree or those who have a title. Like we are called into ministry. And so keeping that before our, our leaders and our staff so that they are keeping it before the people that they're calling into these volunteer leader leader roles. And I will say, like, those who are the volunteers, like, they get, they're excited, they're excited about like, man, like, you just invited me into this position. Like, you've asked, you've seen, you saw something in me and asked me to, to lead in this way and to serve in this way. And it's, it's a privilege to do that. But it is also like continuing to put that before us. Like, we, we are investing in our people. Now. Some of our future staff members might come from those who are volunteer leaders and like that. And like, that's a beautiful thing because we're like, man, I already know, I can see how you would operate in this role and how you would fit on our team and how you would keep, how you do get the culture and what we're trying to do. And I think that that's really a beautiful thing. But it is a lot of conversation, a lot of coaching and just a reminder of like. And I think part of it too is realizing, like, we can't do everything. And so being very intentional to not be overly programmed, to be very clear about. We're going to do these things, like these very simple. And so that's where it's like, it seems so simple, it seems so basic. But we're going to do these simple, basic things and do them faithfully and. And then, yeah. See what God does.
- [39:22]
A
God for the results. Yeah. That's fantastic. Yeah. And I listen, you know, I, it makes sense that you'll end up hiring some people because it's like, that's a little bit of a crazy, you know, ratio. And you know, I think that'll be, that'll be a challenge ahead to keep that focused as you add those people. And it's not unreasonable to say to your team, like, oh yeah, like, we probably should add a few people. But, but to still champion at the end of the day, I think that's, there's a key piece there that you mentioned. It's like this idea of championing the people who have been able to make that transition. And I'm like, I got a, like, hey, it's about developing leaders and I want to make that happen. And I know that might be messy and there's other problems with that, but that's, you know, that's good. Well, it's been a fantastic conversation for people who are listening in today who might feel that kind of like, oh, my goodness, we're under resourced, we're out, you know, outnumbered. We don't have enough people help us think through kind of talk to us a little bit from even mindset or how we lead point of view to kind of lead from abundance rather than from scarcity. Because a part of what I don't hear you saying is like, oh, woe is me. Like, you're like, no, this is just what God's called us to in the season. We're going to make it happen and God's doing a great thing. So try to encourage us, help us think that through.
- [40:31]
C
Well, I would, I mean I would first of all say you're not alone. So if you feel, if you do feel overwhelmed and outnumbered and under resourced, like, you're not alone. And so I think that that is, is helpful to be like, man, I'm not. And I think that's where like even having podcasts like this where you're able to hear from others where you're like, oh man, okay, we're in this together. We are all doing the mission that God has called us to and there are challenges that come with that. And, and that can be really discouraging and hard. And yet like I think when we can have that kind of loaves and fishes mindset of like the disciples, they could not feed those people. Like they could not fit fill all the needs that were before them, but Jesus could. And so if we can be faithful to say, okay God, what do we have? What do we have? Like, what do we have in front of us and how do we use that for your glory? And what, what does that look like? What, what are the things that we need to like have that laser focus on so that we can then continue to see what you are going to do with, with what we bring. And, and I think that there is that reliance on God to, to say like, you're the one who does the work. Like this is not. And I think that helps us to like, it takes away that, that pride and also that just overwhelming feel feeling of sometimes failure when it's, it's not. When we realize that it's not all on me. Like, this is not my responsibility is to be faithful and continuing to be faithful to follow what God has called me to do. And that means, I mean that means working hard. That means best practices. That means learning from others. But I am not responsible for the end result. So how do I just be intentional and faithful with what God has given me? And, and I think too, I think it's really important to find others who are also in the journey with you that you can that not that you just get together and complain, but that you can really come alongside each other and encourage one another. And that has been one of the most significant things that I have found in stepping into this role. I got connected with a women executive pastor cohort of women all over the country who are leading in similar roles and being able to just ask questions of other church leaders, being able to say, will you pray for me? Like, I'm going through something really difficult right now. Will you pray for me? That has encouraged me personally to be able to keep pressing on. When it does feel overwhelming or it does feel like, man, the task is too great for me to be reminded and to have other pastors in like my corner and in my ear saying, remember who God is and remember what he's called you to. And so I think that that is just if we can keep that in view and that mindset in view that God is so much greater than the most difficult person at your church, who is louder than all of the others. And God is greater than the greatest problems that you are facing and the difficulties that you're walking through. And so I think just looking for those things.
- [43:43]
A
So good. Sarah, this has been such a helpful conversation. I really appreciate you being here today and investing in us and it's just fantastic. Super encouraging and lots of good nuggets in there. I got pages of notes here if people want to track with you or with the church. Where do we want to send them online?
- [43:59]
C
Yeah, we, I mean, we're on Instagram and Facebook. We're for the city.com is our church website. We are not on TikTok yet. We're not that cool. I don't know. We'll. We'll get there, but.
- [44:12]
A
Nice.
- [44:13]
C
Yeah, that's the primary way.
- [44:15]
A
That's great. Thanks so much. Thanks for being here today.
- [44:18]
C
Thank you so much.
- [44:19]
B
Thanks for tuning in to this episode of the Unseminary podcast. If you found today's conversation helpful, I'd share it with a friend. In ministry, it's a simple way to spark new ideas and grow together. Also, don't Forget to visit unseminary.com to sign up for our email list. You'll get get exclusive resources and practical tools delivered straight to your inbox to help you lead your church more effectively. Most importantly, take what you learned today and put it into action this week. Ministry impact starts with small, intentional steps. See you next time.