Podcast
unSeminary Podcast
Hosted by Rich Birch · EN
stuff you wish they taught in seminary.
64episodes
Episodes
Newest firstAll episodes
Your Church Will Get the Crisis Call. Are You Prepared? with Rebecca Maxwell
3d ago00:36:59Summary readyWelcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Rebecca Maxwell, a licensed marriage and family therapist and founder of Jacksonville Counseling Services. With 15 years of prior church ministry experience and now leading a growing counseling practice, Rebecca brings a unique perspective that bridges biblical truth and clinical insight. Are you feeling unprepared when people come to you with deep emotional or mental health struggles? Wondering how to respond wisely without overstepping your role? In this conversation, Rebecca helps church leaders better respond to crises and care for people in more informed and effective ways. Why pastors often feel unprepared. // Rebecca reflects on her years in ministry and recognizes that many church leaders simply lack the training needed to identify and respond to mental health challenges. While pastors are often the first call when someone is in crisis, most have received minimal formal education in this area. As a result, well-intentioned leaders can miss important warning signs or unintentionally cause harm. Rebecca emphasizes that pastors don’t need to become therapists—but they do need a basic framework for recognizing distress and knowing how to respond appropriately. Slow down before you try to solve. // One of the most common mistakes leaders make in crisis situations is moving too quickly to solutions. Offering Scripture or advice immediately—while well-meaning—can sometimes shut people down if they don’t first feel heard. Rebecca encourages leaders to practice the “ministry of presence”: allowing individuals to tell their story, expressing empathy, and bearing witness to their pain. This approach helps regulate emotions and creates space for truth to be received later, when the person is more grounded and able to process it. You don’t need all the answers—but you need a plan. // A critical takeaway for church leaders is the importance of knowing where to turn for help. Rebecca stresses that leaders don’t need to be experts, but they must have a resource network in place. This includes vetted counselors, crisis resources, and trusted professionals they can contact when situations escalate. Without this preparation, leaders may feel stuck or overwhelmed in high-pressure moments. Addressing misconceptions about mental health. // Rebecca also addresses a harmful but common belief in some church contexts—that mental health struggles are simply a sin issue. While sin can play a role, this perspective oversimplifies the complexity of the human mind. She explains that just as the body can become ill, so can the mind. Ignoring this reality can lead to shame, misdiagnosis, and ineffective care. Instead, churches need a more integrated understanding of people as whole beings. Why the church must engage this conversation. // If churches remain silent on mental health, people will seek answers elsewhere—from social media, AI tools, or secular sources that may lack biblical grounding. Rebecca urges leaders to step into this space with confidence and compassion, offering both truth and practical support. The church has an opportunity to be a trusted starting point for healing—but only if it is equipped to respond. A practical next step for every church. // Rebecca strongly recommends that anyone working with people receive basic crisis training, such as QPR (Question, Persuade, Refer). This short training equips leaders to recognize warning signs, respond appropriately, and guide individuals toward help. It’s a simple but powerful step that can literally save lives. To learn more about Rebecca Maxwell and her book, Jesus and Your Mental Health: Linking God’s Word and Modern Science to Find Peace about Mental Health, visit JesusAndYourMentalHealth.com and download a sample here. Explore additional resources at jacksonvillecounseling.net. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in today. You’re gonna be rewarded for that. I know that the conversation we’re having today, that this week, probably four or five times, you’ve thought about issues adjacent to this, and it’s gonna be super helpful. We are leveraging an expert. We’re gonna take advantage of this person to really help you this week and to help you solve some real problems. Rich Birch — Excited to have Rebecca Maxwell with us. She is a licensed marriage and family therapist. She started Jacksonville Counseling Services in 2015 to serve her Florida community with counseling services that integrate best practices with a biblical foundation.Rich Birch — The cool thing about Rebecca, well, there’s lots of cool things about her, but one of the cool things about her is prior to her voyage into marriage and family therapy, she spent 15, not 50 years in…Rebecca Maxwell — I look amazing.Rich Birch — Yeah, exactly. …in church ministry with children, adolescents, and family. So it’s just a great background, dual background for us to kind of tap into today. Rebecca, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.Rebecca Maxwell — Yeah, glad to be here, Rich.Rich Birch — Apologize for the 50 year. That’s…Rebecca Maxwell — Hey, I mean, I look good for doing this for 50 years.Rich Birch — Yeah exactly. Why don’t you kind of give us a bit of a background? Tell us, fill out that, you know, bio a little bit. Tell us a little bit about yourself.Rebecca Maxwell — Yeah, so I’m married to a pastor, but I want to just be clear that I was in ministry first.Rich Birch — Yes. Good. Good.Rebecca Maxwell — I fell I fell into ministry ah after getting a degree in management from Georgia Tech… Rich Birch — Okay. Rebecca Maxwell — …and the Lord just kind of opened some doors, and I had to figure out what that was going to look like. Started in ministry to teenagers, youth. And did that faithfully for many years and also did a little bit of adult discipleship and kids ministry along the way, kind of got my training as I went along. Rebecca Maxwell — And there was a there was a point where God was just really beginning to lay the foundation for a different direction, a new call. And I spent a couple semesters in seminary trying to figure that out and ah didn’t think that was where the Lord was taking me to finish that training. And a friend, honestly, this was the best question I’ve ever been asked. She asked me, Rebecca, what do you love about youth ministry? What’s the favorite what’s your favorite part of your job?Rebecca Maxwell — And I said, you know, I love talking to teenagers and their parents about life stuff. And she said, well, I think you’d make a great counselor. And so that was the that was the the great question that got me in the direction of seeking more training in counseling. And I did marriage and family therapy because I was working with family so much… Rich Birch — Right. Rebecca Maxwell — …and really believing that the health of the family was so important to the health of the kids. And the kids were really like my driving force in what I was doing. Rich Birch — So cool. Rebecca Maxwell — So that it took me in that direction and along the way got to do some cool things in ministry and now working alongside churches in Christian, biblically based, also clinically informed counseling.Rebecca Maxwell — And so I have a practice in Jacksonville of there there’s about 18 of us now. And along the way, God gave me an experience that allowed me to to really know that I needed to be distinctively Christian and biblically based in my practice, that that was going to be important for my community. And so that’s that’s what we do. We try to bridge the best of psychological science with what the Bible says…Rich Birch — Yeah, so good. Rebecca Maxwell — …and serve our community.Rich Birch — W...
Summary10 Things Your Church Must Bring to a Capital Campaign
5d ago00:15:10Summary readyEarly in my time as an Executive Pastor, we were about halfway through what felt like a defining campaign for our church. And I was frustrated. Every time we met with our campaign consultant, they showed up with a binder (this was back in the 1900s) and we would turn pages to whatever was next. Cookie-cutter strategy. No real interest in who we were or what God was doing in our community. We fired them halfway through. Cost us real money and time. A decade or so later, I was part of another campaign. Completely different experience. That consultant is still a friend today. We started as workmates and became something more because we drew swords together through the whole thing. Reflecting on those two experiences over the years, across three fast-growing churches (two of which grew from under 1,000 to 4,000 or 5,000 people) and through multiple campaigns of various sizes, one thing has become clear: what makes the difference isn’t the firm you hire. It’s what you and I bring to the table. That first campaign? I was looking to the consultant for too much. I hadn’t thought carefully enough about what we needed to bring. These firms are coaches. Coaches can only do so much when the athletes aren’t doing the reps. Here are 10 things your church must bring to the table in your next capital campaign, whether you call it a generosity initiative, a spiritual growth season, or a building program. 1. Clarity of Vision Before You Talk About Money Research consistently confirms what experienced fundraisers already know: people give to impact, not to organizational need. Penelope Burk’s Cygnus Applied Research donor surveys, conducted annually with up to 25,000 active U.S. donors, found that 67% of donors increasingly favor organizations that provide measurable results, and roughly half report they’re not giving at their full potential simply because they lack information about where the impact actually lands. [ref] Yale’s Center for Customer Insights confirmed in 2024 that aspirational, vision-driven framing significantly outperforms need-based asks in generating donor response. [ref] For churches, the translation is practical: “We need a new roof” raises less money than “We’re building a home for the next generation of faith in our city.” The question worth sitting with is whether the average person in your congregation can explain your vision in a single sentence, and whether that vision is genuinely bigger than the campaign itself. If your church is fuzzy on what God is uniquely calling you toward, you are not ready. The campaign is just the next step out of a clear vision. Without that clarity established first, the campaign will underperform regardless of the firm you bring in. 2. Leadership Alignment at the Top When campaigns underperform, the culprit is almost never the economy, the giving culture of your congregation, or the consultant. In my experience, it’s misalignment at the senior leadership level, and the research on this is hard to argue with. Prosci’s Best Practices in Change Management research, now in its 12th edition and spanning 25 years across more than 10,800 professionals globally, has found that active and visible executive sponsorship is the single #1 contributor to initiative success in every benchmarking study since 1998. Campaigns with effective senior sponsors succeed 79% of the time; those without that alignment drop to 27%. [ref] McKinsey’s global survey data found that transformations are 12.4 times more likely to succeed when senior leaders communicate continually, and 47% of executives who had been through a major transformation wished they had spent more time aligning their top team before the launch. [ref] Your campaign consultant cannot create unity. That work belongs to you. Senior leadership team members and elders who are privately skeptical before the campaign goes public will erode trust once the pressure arrives, and the pressure always arrives. Getting that alignment sorted before you move is one of the most important things you can do, and it’s entirely on your shoulders. 3. A Willingness to Actually Do the Work Here’s something worth saying plainly: most capital campaign firms follow a nearly identical strategy. There’s a leadership phase, a core donor phase, a volunteer phase, a public phase, a pledge weekend, and follow-up. You could ask an AI to outline any firm’s likely approach and have a reasonable answer in about 10 minutes. The strategy isn’t what separates campaigns that transform churches from campaigns that disappoint them. Execution is. McKinsey’s global transformation data tells a similar story: only 26% of major organizational transformations actually succeed. [ref] Think about it like my Peloton. The instructor can give me a plan, show me the gauges, compare my output to other riders, and tell me exactly what to do. She cannot make me get on the bike and push hard. That part is entirely on me. A campaign running in parallel with normal ministry operations is essentially asking your team to do two full-time jobs simultaneously. Budget your team’s capacity honestly before you start, and make structural space for your people to actually execute the work the campaign requires. 4. A Culture of Repetition Behavioral science is consistent on this: people need to hear a message many times before it moves them to action. The old “rule of 7” from marketing turns out to be folklore with no traceable original source, and research suggests the real threshold is higher. Schmidt and Eisend’s 2015 meta-analysis in the Journal of Advertising found that peak attitude change happens at around 10 exposures. [ref] In a world of increasing distraction, that number is almost certainly climbing. At one church I was part of, I counted how many times the lead pastor repeated the core campaign message before the first public Sunday. The answer was 23. That’s not overkill. That’s how transformation actually works. Leaders get tired of the message long before the congregation does. Your congregation is always further behind than you think they are. The leaders who succeed in this season are the ones who lock in their messaging early and walk it out consistently, without flinching when it starts to feel repetitive to them personally. 5. Strong Engagement with Key Donors Before the Campaign Launches I don’t know your church, but I can predict with reasonable confidence that close to 50% of your church’s donations come from roughly 10% of your people. The AFP Fundraising Effectiveness Project, covering 12,000+ nonprofits and 6.7 million donors, found that just 3.1% of donors contributed 77.7% of all fundraising dollars in 2024. [ref] Industry benchmarks suggest 80 to 90% of a campaign goal comes from the top 10 to 20 gifts. The biggest checks come from the smallest rooms. If you have done little or no relational investment with your top-tier donors before you start thinking about a campaign, you are already behind. Early donor conversations are not about pressure; they are about invitation. These are your most generous people. Giving them the privilege of early connection, of being brought into what God is doing before the rest of the congregation hears about it, is not a fundraising tactic. It’s honoring a relationship. Start building that now, well before you need anything from them. 6. A Real Follow-Up Plan Here is something that can quietly sink a campaign before it ever goes public: pledges that never get followed up on. Well-managed capital campaigns actually have strong fulfillment rates. The follow-up process is what converts a signed pledge card into a fulfilled gift over time. Before you go public, map out your entire follow-up phase: regular donor communications, pledge reminders, giving statem...
SummaryWhy Your Best Ideas Are Killing Your Team’s Engagement with Hal Mayer
1w ago00:34:38Summary readyWelcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Hal Mayer, a coach and consultant who works with pastors and business leaders to help them grow healthy teams without burning out. With decades of ministry experience and a background in coaching, Hal brings actionable insights into one of the most common leadership challenges: how to move a team from passive compliance to active engagement. Are you carrying too much of the leadership load yourself? Feeling like you’re the only one coming up with ideas or pushing things forward? In this conversation, Hal shares a simple but effective framework to help leaders shift from telling to asking—and unlock the potential of their teams. Why teams become disengaged. // One of the most common frustrations leaders express is that their team feels stagnant or unmotivated. Hal suggests this is often not a team problem but a leadership problem. When leaders consistently provide the answers, shut down ideas, or unintentionally reward passivity, team members learn that their input isn’t needed. Over time, they stop contributing and simply comply. What appears as laziness is often the result of a system that has trained people not to engage. From answer-giver to question-asker. // Many leaders are promoted because they have strong ideas and can solve problems quickly. However, if they continue operating as the “answer person,” they eventually limit both their own capacity and the development of their team. Hal emphasizes that asking better questions is the key to unlocking engagement. Questions reveal what team members understand, help them think critically, and shift ownership of solutions back to them. When people help create the solution, their investment in execution increases dramatically. The Smart Ask framework. // Hal introduces a practical coaching framework called Smart Ask, designed to guide conversations that lead to action. The process begins broadly by asking, “What issues are you facing?” This allows team members to surface their own challenges and become more self-aware. From there, the leader helps narrow the focus by identifying one clear goal for the conversation—something the person can act on immediately. Next comes a pivotal question: “If you could try anything, what would you do?” This opens up creativity and removes internal barriers that might limit thinking. From there, the conversation moves toward selecting one idea, identifying potential roadblocks, and outlining specific next steps. By the end, the team member leaves with a clear, self-generated action plan. Why buy-in matters more than the idea. // Even a great idea will underperform if the person responsible for executing it isn’t fully invested. Conversely, a slightly weaker idea can produce better results if the team member has full ownership and enthusiasm. Engagement drives execution. When leaders consistently choose their own ideas over their team’s, they unintentionally lower buy-in and limit results. Coaching toward self-leadership. // Over time, consistently using questions develops leaders who can think and solve problems independently. Hal describes the ultimate goal as “self-coaching” where team members begin asking themselves the same questions and generating solutions without needing constant input. This not only reduces the leader’s workload but also builds a stronger, more capable team. Balancing development and delegation. // Hal cautions that delegation is not the first step. Rather, it’s the result of development. Leaders must invest time in coaching and guiding their team before handing off responsibility. Skipping this process leads to frustration and failure. However, when leaders take the time to develop people through intentional questions and feedback, they create a foundation for effective delegation and long-term growth. Recognizing true engagement. // Leaders can spot engagement by watching for energy, initiative, and ownership. Engaged team members proactively solve problems, follow through on ideas, and bring solutions rather than just concerns. In contrast, disengagement shows up as slow execution, repeated questions, or a lack of enthusiasm. These are signals that more coaching, and better questions, are needed. Leading with humility and transparency. // For leaders who recognize they’ve been over-directing, Hal encourages a simple starting point: acknowledge it. Telling your team, “I’ve been giving too many answers, and I want to change that,” creates trust and opens the door for a new dynamic. This kind of vulnerability invites feedback and helps reset expectations for how the team will function moving forward. To learn more about Hal Mayer and his resources—including Smart Ask and The Coaching Playbook—visit halmayer.com or find his books on Amazon. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: TouchPoint As your church reaches more people, one of the biggest challenges is making sure no one slips through the cracks along the way.TouchPoint Church Management Software is an all-in-one ecosystem built for churches that want to elevate discipleship by providing clear data, strong engagement tools, and dependable workflows that scale as you grow. TouchPoint is trusted by some of the fastest-growing and largest churches in the country because it helps teams stay aligned, understand who they’re reaching, and make confident ministry decisions week after week. If you’ve been wondering whether your current system can carry your next season of growth, it may be time to explore what TouchPoint can do for you. You can evaluate TouchPoint during a free, no-pressure one-hour demo at TouchPointSoftware.com/demo. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you are tuned in to today’s episode. Man, we’ve got something super helpful for us. It’s one of these areas that many of us spend lots of time doing, but we maybe haven’t taken a step back and think thought about what do we do in coaching relationships? We all are involved in coaching staff and people on our teams. And today we want to help you with some practical steps to make that even better. Rich Birch — Excited to have Hal Mayer with us. He’s a coach and consultant for both businesses and business leaders and pastors who want to grow but don’t want to burn out. He’s authored a few books, including “Smart Ask”, “The Coaching Playbook”, and excited to have Hal on the episode today. Welcome. So glad you’re here.Hal Mayer — It’s good to be here, Rich. I’ve been a fan on the sidelines for years, and unSeminary was so good because I did the seminary thing, and I did all the stuff, and you’re right. There’s so many things we didn’t talk about there that you help us prepare for, so thank you for what you’re doing.Rich Birch — Oh, that’s super exciting. That’s kind of you to say, but I’m I’m really looking forward to toda...
SummaryUnshakable Faith in a Shifting Culture: Helping People Stay Rooted with Aaron Graham
2w ago00:39:15Summary readyWelcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Aaron Graham, lead pastor of The District Church, a diverse and growing congregation in the heart of Washington, D.C. Founded in 2010 just a few miles from the White House, the church has become known for its global diversity—with people from more than 80 nations represented—and its commitment to living out the gospel for the good of the city. Are you noticing both spiritual curiosity and spiritual drift among people in your community? Wondering how to disciple people faithfully in a culture that increasingly pushes back against historic Christian orthodoxy? In this conversation, Aaron shares insights from his ministry context in D.C. and his new book Unshakable Faith: How to Stand Firm in a Culture of Lies, offering practical ways churches can respond to cultural pressure while forming resilient disciples from the next generation. A generation leaning in—and drifting away. // Aaron observes a striking tension among young adults today: some are pursuing faith with new seriousness, while others are quietly drifting away. Cities like Washington, D.C., attract highly educated young professionals who want to make a difference in the world through public service. Many are motivated by compassion and a desire to serve others, but they also face cultural pressures that can slowly reshape their beliefs. In Aaron’s experience, this environment creates both incredible opportunities for ministry and real challenges in maintaining historic Christian faith. Some people are exploring spiritual questions deeply, while others disengage from church entirely through gradual spiritual drift. Understanding doubt, deconstruction, and denial. // Aaron encourages church leaders to distinguish between three different spiritual responses: doubt, deconstruction, and denial. Doubt is a natural part of faith—it involves uncertainty and questions that can ultimately strengthen belief when handled within a supportive community. Deconstruction, however, goes further by dismantling previously held beliefs. While some deconstruction may be necessary—especially when people have experienced unhealthy theology or spiritual abuse—it becomes dangerous when it happens in isolation without reconstructing a healthier biblical foundation. Denial is the final stage, where a person actively rejects core Christian beliefs. Recognizing these distinctions helps pastors respond with wisdom and compassion rather than assuming everyone wrestling with faith is in the same place. Creating space for honest questions. // One practical way The District Church engages doubt is through a summer series called “This Is My Story.” During this series, church members share short testimonies about their biggest spiritual questions and how God met them through those struggles and doubts. These stories normalize honest questions while showing that faith can deepen through wrestling with difficult issues. Instead of centering doubt itself, the church highlights the journey from questioning to deeper trust in God. This approach has been especially meaningful for newcomers, helping them see that the church is a place where people can wrestle honestly with faith while still moving toward spiritual maturity. Resisting the pull of cultural lies. // Aaron’s book identifies several cultural narratives that quietly reshape Christian belief. One example is what he calls the “selective Christian”—someone who edits Scripture to match personal preferences or cultural expectations. When believers accept only the parts of the Bible that feel comfortable, the authority of Scripture slowly erodes. Over time, this selective approach strips the gospel of its transformative power. Aaron emphasizes that discipleship must include serious engagement with the whole Bible, even the passages that challenge modern assumptions. Returning to deep Bible engagement. // One of the most effective ways Aaron addresses cultural pressure is by encouraging consistent Bible engagement within the church. Through reading plans, group discussions, and teaching that emphasizes submission to Scripture rather than simply learning about it, believers begin to develop a more holistic faith. Interestingly, Aaron notes that people who deeply engage Scripture often become both more morally conservative and more socially liberal with deeper compassion toward others. Instead of fitting into political categories, they develop a kingdom perspective shaped by the teachings of Jesus. Holding together justice and biblical conviction. // Throughout his ministry, Aaron has worked extensively in justice initiatives, advocating for the poor and vulnerable. However, he has also seen many leaders abandon historic Christian beliefs while pursuing social justice causes. This experience convinced him that justice and biblical orthodoxy must remain connected. True justice flows naturally from a high view of Scripture and the lordship of Christ. When churches separate the two, they risk losing both their theological foundation and their long-term spiritual influence. To learn more about Aaron Graham’s book Unshakable Faith: How to Stand Firm in a Culture of Lies, visit aarongrahamdc.com, where you can find resources, curriculum, and links to purchase the book. Plus, check out District Church at districtchurch.org. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Risepointe Do you feel like your church’s or school’s facility could be preventing growth? Are you frustrated or possibly overwhelmed at the thought of a complicated or costly building project? Are the limitations of your building becoming obstacles in the path of expanding your ministry? Have you ever felt that you could reach more people if only the facility was better suited to the community’s needs? Well, the team over at Risepointe can help! As former ministry staff and church leaders, they understand how to prioritize and help lead you to a place where the building is a ministry multiplier. Your mission should not be held back by your building. Their team of architects, interior designers and project managers have the professional experience to incorporate creative design solutions to help move YOUR mission forward. Check them out at risepointe.com and while you’re there, schedule a FREE call to explore possibilities for your needs, vision and future…Risepointe believes that God still uses spaces…and they’re here to help. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welc...
SummaryWhen Your People Are Discipled More by Cable News Than by Scripture with Derwin L. Gray
3w ago00:36:25Summary readyWelcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Dr. Derwin L. Gray, co-founder and lead pastor of Transformation Church. Since launching in 2010, Transformation Church has become a multi-ethnic, multi-generational movement impacting thousands locally and globally. In this conversation, Derwin tackles one of the most pressing—and often avoided—questions facing church leaders today: what are we actually multiplying? Are we forming disciples of Jesus—or unintentionally shaping people more through culture, politics, and media than through the gospel? Derwin challenges leaders to examine the deeper currents shaping their churches and to recover a bold, Christ-centered vision for discipleship. What are we actually multiplying? // Derwin raises a provocative concern: many churches are focused on growth, expansion, and multiplication—but not always clear on what is being multiplied. Are we producing disciples rooted in the gospel, or consumers attracted to experiences? He warns that without intentional focus, churches can unintentionally replicate shallow faith, cultural Christianity, or even ideological distortion. The goal of multiplication must not simply be more campuses or larger attendance, but deeper, more faithful discipleship. A discipleship crisis beneath the surface. // The issue isn’t that churches lack discipleship. It’s that many people are being discipled by the wrong influences. Social media, political ideologies, and cultural narratives are shaping beliefs and behaviors, often more powerfully than Scripture. This creates a “wrong discipleship” problem, where people identify as Christians but reflect values that are inconsistent with the teachings of Jesus. The challenge for leaders is to re-center discipleship around Christ, ensuring that people are being formed by the gospel rather than the surrounding culture. The danger of ideological captivity. // Derwin speaks candidly about the ways the church can become entangled in political ideologies—whether on the right or the left. He specifically critiques the rise of Christian nationalism, defining it as the fusion of the church’s identity with the identity of a nation-state. This, he argues, distorts the gospel by elevating political allegiance above allegiance to Christ. At the same time, he acknowledges the influence of secular progressivism. Both extremes, in different ways, can pull believers away from the centrality of Jesus. The call is not to disengage from society, but to engage from a distinctly gospel-centered perspective. Recovering a gospel-shaped identity. // At the heart of Derwin’s message is a call to rediscover what it means to be shaped by the gospel. The good news of Jesus is not merely about individual salvation—it creates a new family across ethnic, cultural, and social lines. This vision is central to Transformation Church’s identity as a multi-ethnic community. Derwin emphasizes that the gospel reconciles not only vertically (between people and God), but horizontally (between people and one another). When churches lose this vision, they lose their witness in a divided world. Courageous and compassionate leadership. // Leading in this cultural moment requires what Derwin calls “courageous compassion.” Pastors must be willing to speak truth clearly while loving people deeply. This means addressing difficult issues without fear of losing people, while also avoiding harsh or divisive rhetoric. Derwin acknowledges that this approach can lead to criticism from multiple sides, but he emphasizes that faithfulness to Christ must take priority over maintaining comfort or approval. Practical steps for leaders. // For pastors who feel their churches have been shaped more by culture than by Christ, Derwin offers simple but powerful starting points: pray, repent, and refocus on the gospel. He encourages leaders to equip themselves through study and to guide their teams in rediscovering a biblical framework for discipleship. Most importantly, leaders must model what they teach, demonstrating lives rooted in Christ rather than captured by cultural narratives. A renewed vision for the church. // Ultimately, Derwin calls the church back to its prophetic voice. The church is not meant to mirror the divisions of the world but to offer a compelling alternative: a community shaped by love, unity, and truth. When the church remains rooted in Jesus, it becomes a powerful witness to a watching world. To learn more about Transformation Church and Dr. Derwin L. Gray, his teaching, and resources, visit transformationchurch.tc and derwinlgray.com. Plus, pre-order his book, It’s Time to Heal: Four God-Given Steps to Restore What Life Has Shattered. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Portable Church Your church is doing really well right now, and your leadership team is looking for solutions to keep momentum going! It could be time to start a new location. Maybe you have hesitated in the past few years, but you know it’s time to step out in faith again and launch that next location. Portable Church has assembled a bundle of resources to help you leverage your growing momentum into a new location by sending a part of your congregation back to their neighborhood on Mission. This bundle of resources will give you a step-by-step plan to launch that new or next location, and a 5 minute readiness tool that will help you know your church is ready to do it! Click here to watch the free webinar “Launch a New Location in 150 Days or Less” and grab the bundle of resources for your church! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, so glad that you decided to tune in to today’s episode of the unSeminary podcast. Really looking forward to this. I had a fragment of a conversation with a dear friend at the Exponential Conference and I want to have more of that today with you listening in. And this is a conversation that I know is impacting people. I think 100% of our church is in the country today. It’s something that we all are seeing. It’s impacting us. We’ve got to be thinking about this. Rich Birch — Honored to have Dr. Derwin Gray with us, incredible leader from Transformation Church. He and his wife, Vicki, co-founded the church in 2010. It’s a multi-ethnic, ...
SummaryFrom Data to Discipleship: The Four Cs Every Church Needs with Ronee de Leon
Apr 3000:32:55Summary readyWelcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Ronee de Leon, Executive Director of Partner Church Success at TouchPoint Software. With nearly two decades of ministry experience and now serving churches across the country, Ronee brings a unique perspective at the intersection of systems, strategy, and shepherding. Are you relying on attendance and giving numbers to understand your church? Wondering how to actually “see” your people as your church grows more complex? Ronee shares a practical framework for turning data into meaningful ministry action. You can’t shepherd what you can’t see. // One of the biggest challenges Ronee sees across churches is a lack of visibility. While most churches are passionate about reaching people, many rely on high-level metrics—attendance and giving—that only tell part of the story. As churches grow (especially beyond 300 people), intuitive leadership alone is no longer enough. Leaders can’t be in every room, and without deeper insight, they miss critical moments in people’s lives. The result is a gap between what leaders think is happening and what’s actually happening in people’s spiritual journeys. From data to discipleship. // Ronee emphasizes that data itself is not the goal. Rather, discipleship is. The opportunity for churches today is to transform raw data into actionable insight that helps people take meaningful next steps. Instead of just knowing how many people are in groups, leaders should be asking deeper questions: Who is still engaged three weeks in? Who dropped off halfway through? What patterns are emerging in people’s participation? These insights reveal where discipleship is thriving and where it’s stalling. The four stages of data-driven discipleship. // To help churches think clearly about this process, Ronee outlines a simple framework: conviction, collection, clarity, and care. Conviction asks whether leaders truly believe data collection matters enough to prioritize it. Collection focuses on consistently gathering meaningful data, not just sporadically. Clarity is the ability to interpret that data, moving from information to insight. And finally, care is where action happens – using those insights to connect with people and shepherd them effectively. Every church, she notes, is somewhere along this progression. Where most churches get stuck. // Many churches struggle in the gap between collection and clarity. They gather data but don’t translate it into meaningful action. Data becomes a warehouse rather than a tool. The shift happens when leaders move from asking “What happened?” to “What does this mean and what should we do next?” This requires intentional conversations, regular review rhythms, and a willingness to engage with the data rather than ignore it. Drifting is the key moment to watch. // One of the most important indicators Ronee highlights is disengagement. When people begin to drift—missing groups, serving less, or disengaging from community—it often signals deeper issues. Behind that drift could be doubt, divorce, depression, diagnosis, or financial stress. Without visibility, churches miss the opportunity to respond. But with the right systems in place, leaders can proactively reach out, offering care at the exact moment it’s needed most. From surveillance to stewardship. // Data collection isn’t surveillance, but rather stewardship. When used correctly, data enables pastors and leaders to care for people more effectively. A simple phone call or conversation, prompted by data, can change someone’s trajectory. Ronee shares examples of pastors identifying disengaged individuals, reaching out, and discovering significant life challenges—leading to holistic care that addresses spiritual, emotional, and practical needs. Culture matters more than tools. // While technology plays an important role, culture is the starting point. Churches must first align around why data matters. Without that shared conviction, systems will fail regardless of how advanced they are. Teams need clarity, support, and accountability to consistently engage with data. Leaders must normalize conversations about it by reviewing insights in meetings, celebrating wins, and integrating it into everyday ministry rhythms. Measuring what really matters. // One of the most important shifts happening today is moving beyond weekend attendance as the primary measure of health. Many churches are discovering they are actually ministering to two to three times more people than their weekend numbers suggest. This broader view changes how leaders think about staffing, engagement, and discipleship pathways. It also raises a deeper question: are we promoting participation, or are we cultivating transformation? To learn more about TouchPoint Software and access the free church health assessment, visit touchpointsoftware.com/unseminary. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. You know, we say here at the podcast that it’s like stuff you wish they taught in seminary. And 100% know that today’s topic is one of those that they’re not talking about in seminary, but for particularly my executive pastors, senior leader type people that are listening in, you think about this almost every single day. And your team interacts with it multiple times a day. And it’s something you’re gonna wanna lean in on for an incredible conversation today with Ronee de Leon. She is the Executive Director of Partner Church Success at TouchPoint Software. If you do not know who TouchPoint Software is, you have been living under a rock. It’s a church management and engagement platform that serves churches across the country. She brings over 18 years of experience working in and alongside ministry, combining strategic systems, thinking with a deep heart for shepherding. TouchPoint, this is an incredible organization, has a mission for helping churches transform their data into discipleship, and they really talk a lot about engagement. And so we really want to dive in with this today. Ronee, thanks for being here. Thanks for being on the show.Ronee de Leon — It’s my pleasure. It’s great to be back, Rich. Thank you.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good to have you back on. Slightly different context, but same kind of conversations, but glad to have you back on. Why don’t you bring us up to speed? Tell us a little bit about the Ronee story and tell us a little bit about TouchPoint. How’s all that work together?Ronee de Leon — Yeah, I have been on a journey. Anybody following the Lord, I feel like is on a fun adventure with Jesus. And I have definitely felt that in the last couple of years. I’ve been at TouchPoint for a little less than two years. But before that, I was at a large multi-site mega church based in Columbus, Ohio, and just grateful for the way that the Lord pivots us in our journey when it’s time. And so I had the opportunity to move from serving one church to lots and lots of churches across the country. And I just, it’s such a privilege to serve the bride of Christ in the way that we do at TouchPoint, like you said, through technology, but it’s so much more than that.Rich Birch — Yeah. and I want to take advantage, friends, I want to take advantage of the with the fact that Ronnie’s here. You see churches across the country. You’re working with churches across the country. You have a great experience. And friends, if you’re listening in today and you’re like, oh, like we already have a system like this, I want you to listen in because we’re not we’re not here to sell you on anything. We want to have a bigger conversation, ask some bigger questions, to help you wrestle with and think about this issue, but frankl...
SummaryInvite Culture Problems? Stop Blaming Your People.
Apr 2800:12:56Summary readyYour people aren’t broken. Here’s what’s really going on. Three weeks after I got my driver’s license, I put my car in a ditch. This was back when you could walk into the licensing office on your sixteenth birthday, get a learner’s permit, and … within a few weeks … be fully licensed, no restrictions, no supervision. And that was me. Sixteen years old, license in my wallet, and a car I was allowed to drive anywhere. It was a Christmas party, which meant it was a winter night. I was driving home with friends, a paved road transitioning to gravel, and I hit that washboard effect … the tires skittering sideways in a way I’d never felt before. My car did something I wasn’t expecting. I overcorrected and we ended up nose-down in the ditch on the wrong side of the road. Here’s the thing: I was fully licensed. I’d passed the test, on paper, and I knew how to drive. I just hadn’t been trained for that specific moment. Nobody had taken me out to a gravel road and said, This is what washboard feels like, this is what your car will do, and this is how you respond. The gap between licensed and actually prepared put me in a ditch. I think about that night almost every time a pastor tells me their people won’t invite. Your people are not the problem. Say it again. Your people are not the problem. Stop the quiet Monday-morning verdict that your people just don’t care enough, aren’t committed enough, or aren’t bold enough in their faith. That story is wrong. And worse, it’s leading you to the wrong solutions. Spiritual guilt campaigns don’t build invite culture. They build a two-week bump and a long guilt hangover. Here’s what the data actually says about your people. Roughly a third of unchurched Americans say they’d attend a worship service if a friend invited them. [ref] That number climbs for lower-barrier community events. Meanwhile, three in four regular churchgoers say the sermon content is a primary reason they show up … Scripture, connection to real life, and actual teaching. [ref] Translation: the receptivity is already sitting in your people’s friend groups. The weekend experience is already a word-of-mouth asset. Your people care, their friends are open, and the raw materials are there. So why is your invite rate what it is? Because licensed isn’t the same as trained. Your people are fully credentialed believers who’ve never been taken out on the gravel road. And when the invite moment shows up — a friend at work mentions a hard week, or a neighbor asks what you did this weekend — they hit the washboard and overcorrect. They mumble something vague or change the subject or go quiet. You read that as a motivation problem. But it isn’t. It’s a training problem and those are very different things — because one of them you can actually fix. What your people actually need (and it’s not another guilt sermon) Three things. Not one, not two, but three. Train their Heads // Most of your congregation thinks they’re passengers. Your people need to understand what role they actually play in reaching your community. Not abstractly or as a sermon illustration. It needs to be communicated as a job description. Most people in the seats on Sunday don’t believe they have a meaningful role in the impact your church will have on the community. They think that’s the pastor’s job, the staff’s job, or the outreach team’s job. When an invitation comes up, they nod along … but in their head, they’re a passenger. You’re the one driving the bus. Training changes the mental model. It teaches your people that they are the most persuasive communication channel your church has … more than your Instagram, more than your website, more than any ad you could run. The research backs this up repeatedly. People don’t get invited by buildings, they get invited by friends. When a congregation genuinely understands that — at a head level — their posture shifts. They stop waiting for the church to grow itself. Equip their Hands. // Your people freeze because nobody gave them a script. Now give them the tools. What are the actual words to say when a friend asks what you did this weekend? What do you text someone after they mention their marriage is struggling? What’s the language for inviting a coworker to Easter without it sounding like a pitch? What do you share on social media, and when, and how often? This is where most churches fall off a cliff. We train people at a concept level, then send them into real conversations with no script, no prompts, and no practice reps. They freeze. Of course, they freeze! We froze, too, the first time we tried to explain what grace is to a skeptical relative at Thanksgiving. Equipping means giving your people specific language, specific triggers for when to use it, and specific tools … shareable social posts, invite cards that don’t feel weird, text templates … that reduce the friction of the actual moment. Language without the tool is theory. The tool without the language is a tract left on a diner table. Motivate their Hearts. // Guilt is not vision. And finally: the why. This isn’t about guilt or obligation, and it’s not another way of saying that better Christians invite more people. Real motivation is vision. It’s the moment your people see that this — inviting their coworker, their sister-in-law, the single mom down the street — is how their community actually changes. This is how a marriage that’s quietly falling apart gets a Tuesday night small group. This is how a lonely senior gets a ride to church and a coffee after. This is how the teenager whose parents just got divorced finds one adult who keeps showing up. This is how we change the world. Not from the stage but from the seats. Motivation isn’t about making your people feel bad. It’s about letting them feel the weight of what their life is worth when it’s spent this way. Here’s why this matters for you specifically The pastor who thinks our people just won’t invite builds culture around guilt and shallow inspiration. Neither compound. You’ll run that sermon series every September and get the same spike every September and wonder why the baseline never moves. The pastor who thinks our people need to be trained, equipped, and motivated builds systems. And systems compound. Year one looks modest. Year three looks like a different church. One of those leaders is still running the same spike-and-drop cycle in 2031. The other isn’t. The question isn’t whether your people care. They do. The question is whether you’ve ever built them a gravel road to practice on, or whether you keep handing out licenses and acting surprised when they end up in the ditch. The Invite Culture Audit — May 12 On Tuesday, May 12 at 12pm ET, I’m hosting a free workshop called the Invite Culture Audit Workshop. It’s not a pep talk. It’s a diagnostic. For twenty years, I’ve had a front-row seat to what’s actually working inside growing churches across North America. And here’s what I keep seeing: the churches that are growing aren’t doing more. They’ve just made inviting normal. In 60 minutes, we’ll work through three things together: Why healthy churches get stuck — the hidden reason your church is doing all the right things, yet guest flow stays inconsistent and big days spike then settle right back. The 5 Gears of Invite Culture — the specific systems growing churches use to move from hoping people invite to expecting they will. Your 90-Day Invite Culture Blueprint — a practical plan to mobilize your people, multiply invitations, and build real momentum heading into fall 2026. You’ll walk out with your Invite Culture Scorecard — a clear picture of where your invite culture is strong, where it’s leaking, and which of the three — train, equip, or motivate — is the dominant blocker in your church right now. You won’t get a generic answer. The answer will be specifically your own. That’s the starting point for building the training your people never got. Zero pressure, no hard pitch, and your whole team is welcome. → Register for the free Invite Culture Audit Workshop One last thing about that ditch When the police pulled me out of the snow that night, they asked me where I wanted to go. My parents were out and I knew enough that I shouldn’t go ho...
SummaryBuddies Aren’t Brothers: Why Men in Your Church Are Stuck with Donnie Griggs
Apr 2300:34:49Summary readyWelcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Donnie Griggs, founding and lead pastor of One Harbor Church in eastern North Carolina. Over nearly two decades, Donnie has led the church from a living room gathering to a thriving multisite church reaching around 2,500 people each weekend in a rural context. In this conversation, we focus on a growing leadership challenge: how churches can effectively engage and disciple men in today’s cultural moment. Are you noticing fewer men engaging in your church, or struggling to define what biblical manhood even looks like today? Wondering how to call men forward without falling into shame-based or culturally distorted approaches? Donnie shares a practical and hopeful framework for building a culture of “good men” in your church. Recognizing the quiet crisis among men. // Donnie began noticing subtle but significant indicators: fewer weddings, more single women asking “Where are the good men?”, and a growing sense that many men were stuck—lacking vision, purpose, and direction. Even older men reaching retirement were finding that the life they had worked toward didn’t deliver the fulfillment they expected. These observations, combined with broader cultural trends, led Donnie to believe that churches must intentionally address the formation of men rather than assume it will happen naturally. Prioritizing men again. // Donnie made a conscious decision to focus on men’s ministry, creating intentional environments like men’s gatherings, reframing how the church speaks to men, and leveraging key moments like Father’s Day. Instead of reinforcing negative stereotypes, the goal became calling something out of men and casting vision for who they can become. Redefining the goal: good, not great. // Central to Donnie’s approach is a shift away from cultural obsession with “greatness” toward biblical “goodness.” Rather than pushing men to become influencers or achieve notoriety, he emphasizes becoming faithful, reliable, and obedient. To make this practical, he developed a simple framework describing a “good man”: someone who embraces responsibility, serves and protects, blesses and encourages others, builds deep friendships with other men, and ultimately follows Jesus. This framework gives men a clear target, which many struggle to articulate on their own. Combating unhealthy cultural narratives. // Donnie is careful to address both extremes in cultural conversations about masculinity. On one hand, he rejects exaggerated “alpha male” stereotypes that emphasize dominance and performance. On the other, he acknowledges that harmful behaviors among men are real and must be addressed. His approach is to call men into a fuller, more biblical picture that includes strength and responsibility but also compassion, tenderness, and emotional health. Looking to the life of Jesus provides a balanced model that breaks down unhelpful stereotypes. Moving from shame to encouragement. // A key insight Donnie shares is that many men operate under a constant sense of shame, feeling like they are not enough and never will be. While shame can motivate behavior in the short term, it is ultimately destructive. Instead, churches must create cultures of encouragement. This includes helping men take responsibility without condemning them, affirming progress, and consistently speaking life into them. Encouragement, not shame, becomes the fuel for long-term transformation. Building brotherhood, not just buddies. // Another major gap Donnie identifies is the lack of deep male friendships. Many men have acquaintances but few relationships where they can be honest and vulnerable. He emphasizes the need for churches to create spaces where men can move from surface-level connections to genuine brotherhood. Tools like his book Becoming Good Men are designed to facilitate these conversations, helping men process deeper questions together rather than in isolation. A tool for churches to implement. // Donnie wrote Becoming Good Men to give churches a practical resource they can use in small groups, mentoring relationships, or larger men’s initiatives. With discussion questions built into each chapter, it’s designed to spark meaningful conversations and help men take tangible steps forward. To learn more about One Harbor Church, visit oneharborchurch.com. You can also find Donnie’s book Becoming Good Men on Amazon, Audible, or at becominggoodmen.org for bulk church resources. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: TouchPoint As your church reaches more people, one of the biggest challenges is making sure no one slips through the cracks along the way.TouchPoint Church Management Software is an all-in-one ecosystem built for churches that want to elevate discipleship by providing clear data, strong engagement tools, and dependable workflows that scale as you grow. TouchPoint is trusted by some of the fastest-growing and largest churches in the country because it helps teams stay aligned, understand who they’re reaching, and make confident ministry decisions week after week. If you’ve been wondering whether your current system can carry your next season of growth, it may be time to explore what TouchPoint can do for you. You can evaluate TouchPoint during a free, no-pressure one-hour demo at TouchPointSoftware.com/demo. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. We’ve got a repeat guest on today, which what does that mean? That means that I want you to hear from them again. I’m really excited for today’s conversation because it’s super relevant. We’ve been hearing about this in kind of the broader news and we want to bring an expert on to help us think through these issues.Rich Birch — Today, excited to have Donnie Griggs with us. He is the founding and lead pastor of a fantastic church, One Harbor Church, a multi-site church with, if I’m counting correctly, three locations in North Carolina. They’re passionate about planting disciple-making churches in eastern North Carolina. So glad that you’re on the the show today. Welcome back, Donnie.Donnie Griggs — Man, so good to be with you, Rich. Thanks again for having me.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s going to be great. Why don’t we start with, tell us a little bit about One Harbor. Give us a quick picture of the church and what’s been God doing across your locations and since we last talked.Donnie Griggs — Yeah, sure. We started 17 and a half years ago in a living room. I kind of thought that’s what we would do forever and was really happy with that idea. I didn’t tell the person whose living room it was that my long term plan was to use their living room. And just God did something different and it just grew a lot. This is a town I’m from. So there’s ah a book about our town and my mom and my granddad are on the cover of it. And it’s very much like our town.Rich Birch — Oh, wow.Donnie Griggs — Yeah. So um huge de...
SummaryBarry Manilow, the Spotlight Effect & Why Your People Are Closer to Inviting Than You Think
Apr 2100:12:45Summary readyPicture this. It’s the year 2000, and a psychology lab at Cornell University is about to ruin a college student’s morning. A researcher hands an undergrad a t-shirt and asks them to put it on. The student unfolds it and sees the face staring back at them: Barry Manilow. Not vintage-cool Barry Manilow. Not ironic, Barry Manilow. Just… Barry Manilow. The kind of shirt that would get you roasted by your roommate before you made it out the door. The student puts it on anyway (this is science, after all) and is told to walk into a room where a group of peers is already seated. Before they open the door, the researcher asks a simple question: “How many people in that room do you think will notice your shirt?” The student thinks about it. They’re about to walk into a room of college kids wearing the musical equivalent of a “kick me” sign. They predict that about half the room will notice. They walk in and sit down. They endure a few minutes of low-grade social agony before the researcher pulls them out and surveys the room. The actual number of people who noticed the shirt? Roughly one in four. The student had overestimated by a factor of two. But the really fascinating part came next. When the researchers repeated the experiment with shirts people would actually want to wear … Bob Marley, Martin Luther King Jr. … the gap blew wide open. Students still predicted that nearly half the room would clock what they were wearing but the real number dropped to fewer than one in ten. A six-to-one overestimate. When the message was positive rather than embarrassing, people paid even less attention [ref]. Psychologists call this the Spotlight Effect. We anchor on our own vivid internal experience and dramatically overestimate how much other people are paying attention to us. Now apply that to your church. You’ve talked about inviting from the stage, you’ve put it in the newsletter, and you mentioned it in your staff meeting last month. It feels like you’ve been beating this drum constantly. But here’s what the research suggests: your congregation has barely registered the beat. And that’s not because they don’t care, it’s because human brains simply don’t absorb messages the way communicators assume they do. The encouraging news is that the gap between where your church is right now and genuine invite-culture momentum may be smaller than it feels. Your people love your church and they’re already in the room, but they need far more persistent encouragement, training, and equipping around invitation than most leaders realize. The difference between stuck churches and growing churches comes down to this: growing churches persistently train, equip, and motivate their people to invite. They don’t do it once a quarter but rather build it into the rhythm of everything they do, all year long. You’re Tapping, They’re Guessing There’s a lesser-known study from Stanford that might be the single most uncomfortable data point for anyone who communicates for a living. Researcher Elizabeth Newton asked people to tap out the rhythm of well-known songs on a table while a listener tried to identify the tune. The tappers predicted their listeners would get it right about 50% of the time. The actual success rate was 2.5% [ref]. That’s a 20-to-1 gap between what the communicator heard in their head and what the audience actually received. This is exactly what happens in churches every week. A pastor who has spent 20 hours in a sermon text hears a full symphony of meaning, nuance, and application. The congregation hears a series of disconnected taps on a table. And when it comes to broader communication—announcements about serving, reminders to invite, follow-up on events—the gap compounds. An XPastor survey of roughly 200 church leaders found that leaders estimated 44% of their people had forgotten the sermon by Monday, and a cumulative 94% by Wednesday [ref]. Church communication practitioners consistently report the same phenomenon: people approach them after six weeks of announcements asking about events they’d never heard of. If 94% of your congregation has forgotten this week’s sermon by midweek, what happened to that invitation challenge you made three Sundays ago? The honest answer is that it evaporated. Don’t despair over this because it’s just a reason to lean in harder and more consistently than you thought you needed to. The Channels Are Working Against You Even when you do communicate about the invitation, the platforms themselves are filtering your message before it reaches your people. Facebook organic reach has collapsed from 16% in 2012 to approximately 1.2–1.65% in 2025 [ref]. A church page with 10,000 followers reaches roughly 130–165 people per post. Instagram organic reach sits at around 3.5%, and it dropped another 30–40% across all post formats in 2025 alone. A church that posts once on Facebook and once on Instagram and considers the communication job done has reached, at best, about 5% of its online followers. Email is the bright spot for churches, but even it tells a sobering story. Religious organizations have some of the highest email open rates of any industry, which is roughly 30% according to analysis of more than 91,000 church emails [ref]. Those are strong numbers. They also mean 70% of your email list never opens any given message, and more than 90% never click a link inside it. Meanwhile, the average person encounters an estimated 6,000–10,000 marketing messages per day and consciously registers fewer than 150 of them. Your midweek email is competing with thousands of other messages for one of those limited attention slots. None of this means you should stop posting or stop emailing. It means that a single mention through a single channel barely registers. If you want your congregation to internalize the idea that inviting friends is a normal, expected part of following Jesus at your church, you need to show up across multiple channels, repeatedly, over weeks and months. The research on multi-channel communication backs this up: campaigns using three or more channels produced a 287% higher engagement rate than single-channel campaigns [ref], and multi-channel donors give roughly three times more in lifetime value than single-channel donors [ref]. Multiple channels don’t just add to your message. They multiply its impact, because each new context creates a distinct memory trace and a separate pathway to recall. Repetition Isn’t Annoying. It’s How Trust Gets Built. There’s a reason the idea of persistent communication makes church leaders uneasy. Nobody wants to be the church that nags. But the science on how humans process repeated messages is remarkably clear, and it doesn’t validate the fear. Robert Zajonc’s Mere Exposure Effect, first demonstrated in 1968, showed that repeated exposure to a stimulus—with no reinforcement, no reward, no positive association—is enough on its own to increase how much people like it [ref]. A 2017 meta-analysis of 268 exposure curves confirmed that the preference curve rises with exposure and peaks at around 10–20 presentations before beginning to decline [ref]. And that decline is primarily a risk with simple, unchanging stimuli. When you vary the format or channel while keeping the core message consistent, the positive range extends significantly. The effect is actually stronger when people aren’t consciously aware of the repeated exposure [ref]. The old Marketing Rule of 7 … the idea that people need seven exposures before taking action …comes from the 1930s movie industry. In 2025, research across industries puts the average number of touchpoints before a decision at nearly 29 [ref]. Seven was the floor almost a century ago. Your congregation needs far more than a single stage announcement and an Instagram post to shift their behavior around invitation. “But We Don’t Want to Annoy People” This is the objection every church communicator faces, and it deserves a fair hearing. The fear of over-communicating is real, but the data says the fear is dramatically lopsided. A Stanford study by Flynn and Lide analyzed more than 2,700 archived 360-degree leadership assessments and conducted four additional studies. They found that leaders who miscalibrated their communication were nearly 10 times more lik...
SummaryIf Sunday Morning Isn’t Working, Nothing Else Will with Jimmy Scroggins
Apr 1600:34:29Summary readyWelcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Jimmy Scroggins, Lead Pastor of Family Church in South Florida. Under Jimmy’s leadership, Family Church has grown into a network of over 20 congregations across multiple languages, all unified under one structure while maintaining local leadership and live teaching at every location. Are you finding your church’s energy drifting in too many directions? Wondering how to keep your ministry focused while still doing all the “good things” churches are called to do? Tune in as Jimmy offers a clear perspective on why maintaining a relentless focus on the weekend experience is critical for sustained church growth. A network of neighborhood churches. // Family Church operates as one unified organization—one name, one budget, one leadership structure—but functions like a family of neighborhood churches. Each location has live preaching, local leadership, and contextualized ministry for its community. Like siblings in a family, each campus shares core DNA while expressing it differently based on context, language, and culture. This approach allows the church to scale while remaining personal and locally effective. Why Sunday still matters most. // One of Jimmy’s strongest convictions is that healthy churches must prioritize the weekend gathering. When growth slows, churches can be tempted to drift away from focusing on Sunday. Leaders may unintentionally elevate secondary ministries, such as midweek programs or community initiatives, because they feel like wins. However, if Sunday gatherings are not vibrant, engaging, and growing, the effectiveness of every other ministry will eventually decline as well. A healthy weekend service creates the momentum that fuels everything else, and secondary ministries all need to drive back to the Sunday experience. Creating alignment across multiple locations. // One way Family Church keeps the focus on Sunday, and maintains unity across a large multisite network, is through shared sermon planning, common teaching outlines, and collaborative preparation. While each pastor delivers messages in their own voice, the theological direction and structure remain consistent. At the same time, local campuses retain flexibility to adapt to their specific communities, ensuring both consistency and contextual relevance. Developing future leaders intentionally. // A key driver of Family Church’s growth is its leadership pipeline. The church utilizes internships, residencies, and student ministry roles to identify and develop future campus pastors. Notably, Jimmy views student pastors as potential senior leaders because their roles require a broad range of skills, from teaching and leadership to administration and pastoral care. By consistently investing in emerging leaders, the church creates a steady pipeline of capable pastors ready to lead new locations. Coaching for continuous improvement. // Teaching quality is a high priority, and every communicator receives regular coaching. Sermons are recorded, reviewed, and evaluated by trusted leaders who provide feedback and track growth over time. Jimmy himself participates in this process, modeling a culture of humility and continuous improvement. Refocusing requires difficult decisions. // For churches that have drifted away from prioritizing the weekend, Jimmy offers a caution: refocusing will require letting go of some good things. Leaders must carefully evaluate where time, money, and energy are being spent, and whether those investments are truly supporting the weekend experience and the church’s primary mission to make disciples. To learn more about Family Church, visit gofamilychurch.org and explore their resources and annual leadership conference. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Risepointe Do you feel like your church’s or school’s facility could be preventing growth? Are you frustrated or possibly overwhelmed at the thought of a complicated or costly building project? Are the limitations of your building becoming obstacles in the path of expanding your ministry? Have you ever felt that you could reach more people if only the facility was better suited to the community’s needs? Well, the team over at Risepointe can help! As former ministry staff and church leaders, they understand how to prioritize and help lead you to a place where the building is a ministry multiplier. Your mission should not be held back by your building. Their team of architects, interior designers and project managers have the professional experience to incorporate creative design solutions to help move YOUR mission forward. Check them out at risepointe.com/unseminary and while you’re there, schedule a FREE call to explore possibilities for your needs, vision and future…Risepointe believes that God still uses spaces…and they’re here to help. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. We’ve got a returning guest today, which, what does that mean? That means it’s somebody I want you to hear from again. Excited to have Jimmy Scroggins with us. He is the lead pastor at Family Church. They’re one of the fastest growing churches in the country with, if I’m counting correctly, 14 campuses in Florida, plus five locations in Spanish and a Portuguese location. That’s a lot of moving parts. Family Church is dedicated to building families in South Florida through a network of neighborhood churches. Jimmy became the lead pastor there in 2008. Super excited to have you on the show again today.Jimmy Scroggins — Hey, man, always glad to be with you and appreciate what you do.Rich Birch — Yeah, encouraging to see you as well again. So why don’t you bring people just up to speed for folks who haven’t been following along with Family Church. Give us a picture where things are at today, your 14 campuses, multiple locations. What’s a network look like today? Tell us all about that.Jimmy Scroggins — Yeah, so actually, depending on how you can, you know, we use the word campus and church interchangeably. So although we are one church organization, one budget, one name, one leadership structure, one constitution and bylaws, we still function a lot from the perspective of an attender like likes independent churches because we have ...
Summary