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- [00:02]
A
Welcome to the Unseminary Podcast, the place where church leaders get practical insights, tips and strategies for ministry growth. Today, you're stepping into something bigger than just a conversation. This podcast is part of a bold mission to help 100 churches grow by 1,000 people. Whether you're dreaming of increasing your impact in your community, empowering your team, or reaching more people with the message of Jesus, you're in the right place. We're here to bring you the stuff you wish they taught in seminary, ideas and tools you can put into action this week to see transformation in your ministry. Let's dive in.
- [00:41]
B
Hey friends. Welcome to the Unseminary Podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. Listen, I know that today's episode is going to be particularly helpful to a lot of churches. I am consistently interacting with churches, asking questions about the things that we're talking about today. It's a real pain point that I know many of you are leaning in on. And so you're going to want to stay tuned right to the end. Excited to have my friend and really an incredible leader and expert in this whole area of developing our facilities and using them to ultimately see people take steps closer to you, really leveraging architecture, interior design, graphic design, branding, all of that stuff. Aaron Stansky is the founder and CEO of RisePoint. With 15 plus years of church design leadership and project management experience. He works not only with churches, but also schools and non profits in a wide variety of contexts. Excited to have you on the show, Aaron. Welcome back.
- [01:37]
C
Thank you, Rich. Excited to be back, man. This is fun.
- [01:39]
B
Yeah. So good to see you again. And I wanted to get you back on because I feel like, man, this is a conversation that we've got to keep in front of people and keep thinking about these things. But for folks that don't know, give us a picture of Rise Point and maybe particularly the types of churches that you help when you're like, hey, here's the kind of churches, how do you think about that?
- [01:59]
C
Yeah, I mean, Rise Point, I mean, we're, we're an architecture and design firm, so we have architects, interior designers, graphic designers that work directly for us. And we work with churches and Christian schools all across the US And Canada. And for us, I mean, the typical churches or schools that we work with are ones that are about growth and are about what we call like the, you know, personal ownership of evangelism. Right. There are churches that are like, hey, it's not about us, it's about, it's about people who aren't at our church yet. It's not even necessarily about our students and raising up those students, but it's about families that are considering what would it look like to, you know, grow up their, their child in Christian education. And so, yeah, for us, it's about churches and schools that are growing and wanting to have an impact on the kingdom.
- [02:54]
B
So, yeah, that's so good. And I know, you know, our facilities are such a key part of what we do. You know, it's a critical piece of the puzzle. And, you know, it's, it's not, it's, it can be an accelerant, it can be, or, or it can hold us back. It can be the kind of thing that can help us reach more people, connect more guests, or the kind of thing that hinder us from that. And you've been doing this for 15 plus years. When a church first comes to you, let's say they're wrestling with these issues. What do most leaders not realize that they're walking into like, they're, they're like, hey, I think we gotta like, do something here to fix this. What do they, what do they stumble on? That's like, hey, maybe they're not aware of.
- [03:36]
C
Oh, interesting. That's a great question, Rich. I mean, I think most churches, like, when they call Rise points, I mean, they understand they're talking to an architect, they understand that construction is going to be difficult or pricing and budgeting, and we're going to get into a lot of that here in the podcast. I think one of the things that they might not realize when they're first starting is, you know, just the mental load that it's going to take to carry a project through to completion. I mean, it's easy to think about, oh yeah, we're going to have some extra meetings or oh yeah, rise point is going to be running some things, but there's just going to be an extra load when it comes to decisions that have to be made, conversations that have to be made with your congregation, your leaders, your staff. And that that mental load over time can take a toll and it can certainly add to the stress if you're not careful.
- [04:28]
B
So, yeah, that's good. I don't know what the stat is, but I remember hearing that there's some, just a giant number of percentage of lead pastors, particularly or senior leaders who transition after, you know, within 18 months of opening a new building. Because of that mental load. Yeah, you know, how does that kind of show up in maybe how you interact with them or how do you lead them in a Way to try to red mental load.
- [04:53]
C
Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I've heard that. I've heard that statistic referenced. I haven't been able to find it actually myself. Fortunately, most, the vast majority of executive pastors and senior pastors that work with us, like, they don't quit once it's over. So But I don't know if that's us doing something right or if, like, just as a culture and as a, as churches, we've figured out like, hey, we're going to support them. We're going to make sure they have the right administrative support. We're going to make sure we, you know, bring some other people around them. So I have no. Maybe we should add that to like the XP survey or survey.
- [05:27]
B
Yeah, that's next year.
- [05:28]
C
Figure that out.
- [05:29]
B
Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Yeah. It was funny in that survey you referenced. We. We did. We did a survey every year and there was. I was thinking about this morning as we were prepping for that. There's an interesting dichotomy found in this year's study where executive pastors had higher confidence that they were going to start a project this year. And I think it was like 80. It's a high percentage.
- [05:49]
A
80.
- [05:49]
B
Some odd percentage versus finished projects. So there was this, like, tension of like, yeah, yeah, we got stuff rolling. Are we going to be able to finish it, though? Is it going to be a problem? Who knows, you know, whether we'll be
- [06:00]
C
able to do that. That's good. I mean, they're the prag, you know, they're the pragmatists. They're like, we're the ones that are going to have to get this done. And, you know, like, we got vision stuff flying around here, but we also have like, Sunday coming. Yes. So, yeah, I love that. That's great.
- [06:14]
B
So good. So you've put together a new resource that I want to make sure people pick up at. You can just get it risepoint.com unseminary. We'll link to that. That's ricepoint with an E, but it's called top 10 mistakes churches make in Construction. In construction projects. Now, I don't want to give it all away, but let's talk about maybe a couple. Let's talk about a couple of them. What? A couple top mistakes that you see churches make when they're thinking about construction projects.
- [06:39]
C
Yeah, I mean, at some point I should probably write a book on this topic. Rich.
- [06:44]
B
Sure.
- [06:45]
C
Not because. Not because I know the right things to do, but probably because I've I've done most of these things myself, so if you've done some of these things, don't feel bad, just join the club. I think I should have like a punch card or something. Like people can like punch out if they've made some of these mistakes. But one of the things that we discovered is, you know, rarely, you know, when we make one of these mistakes, rarely is it like the first time that it's ever happened in the history of church construction projects. Right, right. Like, and rarely is it like some like random unique way, one off thing. Most of the time we can look back and say like, oh yeah, I kind of saw that thing come in. And so hopefully like some of these things will just like help, you know, some churches hedge off like what some of those things are. But yeah, I mean I'll, I'll jump right into the first one. And the first one that we see a lot is churches that try to phase the project and that's a, you know, that ends up being, you know, can be a big construction mistake and one of the biggest that they make. Primarily because we think phase two is coming. So we're just going to phase the project, we're going to get this done and completed and then three years later we're going to go into another campaign or we will have paid off the debt and we're going to fix the, you know, finish the project. You know, we've worked with dozens of churches that spent decades in misaligned buildings because they had this approach, you know.
- [08:13]
B
Yes. Let's start with. I think this is great. In fact, I've heard you talk about this one and I have parroted this to other people when they've talked about their buildings. So first explain what do you mean by phased? Clearly pull that apart when you're, you know, what, what is the mistake that we could step into.
- [08:29]
C
Yeah. So because there's two different ways that you can look at phased. Sometimes you can look at the project and go, hey, we're going to do this first and then this second and the construction team is going to do phase one, phase two, and then we're done. The, the construction error that I'm talking about is when we say, hey, we're going to go ahead and build the thousand seat auditorium in phase one, knowing that we don't have enough room for the kids or parking or students and think, well, we'll just come back in phase two and add in the parking that we need or the kids space. That's the, that's the part that I'm talking about.
- [09:06]
B
Yeah. And in fact, actually I know a church that's in this exact spot. They did not build any kind of youth space. They've got a great, you know, the rest of the building, but now they're like, oh my goodness, we've got to go back now and redo this. So why is this such a problem? Why not? Isn't this a great way to playing the devil's advocate? Isn't this just a great way to save resources? We can't do it all now, so isn't this a logical thing to do?
- [09:30]
C
Yeah, I mean, you're. We're either spend money building something that we can't fully occupy, which is poor financial stewardship, or we end up like stuck. And it hurts. That first time guest experience. Right. Like I tell churches, I mean, look at the drawings that you have on paper and say, yes, like we can do a decade or more of ministry in that space as it's designed. Or like, you got to fix it. Either fix it or don't spend the millions of dollars. I mean, that would be my, that would be my encouragement just to make sure we're spending the resources the way we, the way we should, you know?
- [10:07]
B
Yeah, that's good. That's good. And so how do I know? You know, like, because I think this is one of those things that, you know, it's like a, it's a bit of a counterintuitive idea because I think lots of people actually think this is the way you do it. How do, what's the better alternative then? How do we kind of pull that apart? Double click on that, expand that a bit more, Help us think more clearly on that. Yeah.
- [10:27]
C
I think, you know, what we do want to have is a long term plan. Right. Skipping the long term plan. That's going to be another one of these construction fails if you don't do it. Yep. So if we have a long term plan and say, okay, here's what it's going to look like on our campus, if we continue to grow and we continue to trust God, and here's what, yeah, maybe here's what phase two and phase three looks like, and we're planning for expansion, that's great. But when it comes down to like the construction and the budget, if we just like lop something off so that we can move forward with the project, we could be re, we could be introducing a lid that we don't know about yet. Right. And so I think what we want to do is establish that long term plan and really Dial that in first and then scale it back to something and say, okay, this is a great project. It's going to set us up for the next run. It's the step of faith God's calling us to do. And this thing is going to last us 10 years if we, if we, you know, if we get it done correctly.
- [11:27]
B
Is this. Again, I'm not the expert friends at all. So I may not be thinking about this correctly. So correct my thinking on this is a better way. So let's say we're thinking about exactly what you're talking about. Got like a 300 seat auditorium. And you know, we need, we're thinking we need to triple the whole thing. And so we, like you say, go to a thousand seats. And so we know that then in rough terms, we would have to triple the kids ministry space, triple the, you know, the parking, triple the, you know, the crush space, the lobby space, that sort of thing. You start doing this work and then you're on the design end, you're like, okay, we can't afford all that. What I've seen is churches get all the way through and then they're like, okay, they literally, they do all the design and then they're like, okay, well we can't afford this. They try to scope it and they just cut off the student wing or they cut off whatever. Are we better to think about? Okay, we eventually we want to get to triple, but let's, let's go from 300 to 600 and scale all those parts up that way and design a plan that then we could come back 10 years from now and maybe add the third. Is that more? Is that a better idea?
- [12:27]
C
Yeah, it's a better idea because you'll build less square footage in the first phase. It'll be more, it'll be more achievable. I think understanding what we can afford and can't afford at the beginning, designing something to the budget, I mean, that's really critical. Right, right. And so, yeah, I mean, I think if we just get into like, hey, what's the vision and what would we love to have someday? We'd love to have a thousand seats and stuff. Well, that's great. But what can we afford? And what's, what's that? Right. Next step, because, yeah, we have to scale the kids, the students parking, the guest, like all of that stuff with those number of seats.
- [13:04]
B
Yeah. Isn't it interesting? Like, we would never approach the building of our own personal house this the way that we sometimes do with churches. Me speaking, which this is not Aaron. But you know, I do think we forget the like what's actually affordable step and we would never do that with our own home. It's like, sure, I would love a five car garage and like, you know, this amazing whatever insert, you know, whatever that's play space and all this stuff. I just kind of that. So like I'm going to renovate the kitchen and I'm going to, you know, make these changes with what I can actually afford. It's interesting that we do that. Well, you talked about the skipping the long term plan is maybe one of these or something around that. Let's talk about that. How do we think that about the long term plan?
- [13:48]
C
Yeah, I mean I think sometimes it's tempting to just kind of try to solve some immediate space needs as quickly as possible. We're running hard, some of us are launching campuses or we're trying to plan a church down the road and we're out of seats and it's tempting to say like, hey can we just blow this wall out and add 200 seats? Like it feels like that's just the next thing to do.
- [14:12]
B
Right.
- [14:13]
C
You know, I've talked, you know, a lot of pastors, they just want the problem to go away and I get it. And like the thought of like, let's spend some time like planning out the future, like this feels like a waste of time to them a little bit. And I mean we've rushed few, you know, we've rushed through some projects at rise points only to be ready to start construction and realize like, oh shoot, like the problem shifted or we're just going to introduce this other problem. And so I mean, I think, you know, sitting down, taking the time and it doesn't have to take a long time. I mean, you know, we'll come in and do a needs analysis for church in like 30 days. So like we're not talking about like let's spend a year like blue sky dreaming about all the possibilities. But I am saying let's spend, let's spend a good amount of time like thinking about it, planning it so that we know we're not, you know, causing more problems than we're fixing.
- [15:10]
B
Yeah, that's good, that's good. What's the tension there on. And you know, I picked this up from you in a previous conversation and it has stuck with me is that you know, all of our buildings are built in kind of a particular kind of cultural moment and a philosophy of ministry moment. They're an expression of that. And. But then ministries change, right? And our ministry looks different. How do we balance that reality of like, we kind of want to make it work for today, but then we also want to design, have some sort of conception long term that's like, hey, we could imagine a future where things might change a little bit. How do we, how do we work? How do we make that happen?
- [15:51]
C
Yeah, I mean, you know, some of, some of it's prescribed pretty clearly in the Bible and it hasn't changed for thousands of years. And so like the gathering together of the saints and the singing and taking care of the widows and orphans and the opening up of the Word and you know, inviting the Holy Spirit to participate. And so some of those things are just going to stand the test of time. I think a little bit what you're talking about in the expression of it is, you know, some of the design choices and some of the thing that's that feel relevant or good. I think we have to be careful not to chase trends, you know, too often in doing some of that. But I would say there's like a wrong. There's a strong resurgence right now in, you know, getting back to churches that feel like churches in walking into spaces that feel holy and not just black boxes and some of those. And so we want to pay attention to some of those things. And we also, yeah, we just don't want to be too trendy. You know, we don't want to chase trends, especially with architecture and steel and concrete, because those things are expensive to, to change.
- [17:01]
B
Yes, yes, absolutely. Yeah, that's interesting. Okay, so what, maybe what's another one in these top 10 mistakes again, friends, we want you to drop by and pick it up. But what's another one of these we could unpack for folks?
- [17:10]
C
Yeah. As I was thinking through, you know, some of the mistakes that I've even, I've made, I think sometimes when we're in construction and budgets are tight and we're tired, we get to a point where we want to ignore, you know, maybe the long term costs for some of the decisions that we make and we want to sell it out short. I was talking to a church last week, right? I mean they, you know, they made a decision that saved them 20 grand on the construction project, but it cost them like 10 times that every five years in ongoing maintenance. And so you look back and you're like, well, shoot, why did we do that? Right? You know, why did we try to save, you know, fifteen hundred dollars per kid's, you know, room and trying to like, we'll just put one thermostat in and make all the rooms hot or all the rooms cold. And we'll just run the air conditioning or run the, run the heater. Like long term, like you're spending way more money in those scenarios. So that's one of the things is like, man, what are, what's the ongoing operational and maintenance costs of these decisions going to be? And I mean, sometimes it's like, oh, this thing looks really cool. We really want to have that and that'd be an awesome feature. And you just have no idea. Like, oh man, every week someone's going to have to go out there like with a machine and like a chemical or something to keep that thing functioning or looking the way we want it to look. So.
- [18:36]
B
Yeah, well, that, that I can see, man. I feel like I've been in that conversation around even the, you know, the system controls and stuff where we're like, man, every one of these thermostats we put in is going to cost X amount of dollars. But the long term, you know, flexibility and just, you know, ability to actually reduce the cost, you know, can be amazing if we get more sensors and more stuff in there. But it seems like we're just pinched. Why does that happen? Is it rush at the, you know, we're just not slowing down enough when we make all those decisions. We're not asking the questions. We don't have the right partner at the table. Help me understand why. Why do we end up making these short term, long term, you know, trade offs or maybe trying to. We're saving a dollar today, costing us 10 tomorrow. Where does it actually come from?
- [19:21]
C
Yeah, I mean, I think it comes a little bit from, you know, some decision fatigue definitely happens and then, you know, maybe not counting all the costs and you know, potentially like we've missed some things or oh yeah, we got to get the furniture in here and the eight, like, and so we're right up against like what we feel like is the top lid for what we want to spend. And then you get into some of these things, you're like, man, we just need to value engineer, you know, some stuff out of this project. And at that point, you know, you're saving, you know, you're trying to save pennies, but you're, you're sacrificing a lot of functionality. I mean, I think in those situations we would take, we would typically take a longer term approach and say, hey, before we make that decision, let's talk about those consequences and let's figure out if there's another area that we might, that we. That we might want to save some money on or another decision that we could make that would still get you to where you want to be financially but isn't going to cost you, you know, the, the pain every year kind of moving forward.
- [20:29]
B
Yeah, that's good. Yeah, that's. I, Man, I feel like that one. I feel like I can feel that one a little too close to home. I feel like I've been in that conversation in the past. Maybe one more. What's one more top 10 mistake? And then again, we want people to pick up the whole thing.
- [20:43]
C
Yeah. Oh, man. There's a few different ones on here that I could certainly do. You know, one of the, one of the mistakes I see, and I'll kind of end with this one. It's. It's number 10 on the list. But, you know, I called it treating the building as, as the mission. I'll state the obvious, like, and most of the, you know, all the churches that listen to your podcast would not say, like, the building is the mission. Right. The goal is never simply to complete the building project. The goal is to create spaces that support discipleship and outreach and worship and community impact. Right. When it's all done. But I think we also subconsciously, potentially treat the building as the mission when we get to grand opening and say, man, I'm so glad I'm done. Like, that's it. Like, mission accomplished. Like, you're building your spaces how you're inviting guests in. I mean, it's never done. Right.
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B
Right.
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C
I think, you know, I mean, I think McDonald's has renovated every restaurant in America at least five times since the last time Burger King has ever done a remodel.
- [21:52]
B
Right.
- [21:53]
C
And so one of those environments is nice. And I want to take my seventh grade boys over there after we play laser tag after church or whatever. Yes. And one of those. I don't. Right. And so, I mean, I think, you know, trying to figure out how are we going to constantly improve, move signage, change where the guest services spot is, like, experiment with kids, check in and move them around and update the carpet and use some accent paint and buy some awesome lobby furniture and kind of see it as sort of a repetitive thing. And then I would also say that a lot of churches, like, they hit that finish line and, you know, because of the financial stress of it and stuff, they're like, and we made it. Unfortunately, like, if you continue to grow, you're going to have to do another project at some point or you're going to want to launch A multi site. And if you're still carrying the debt of that first project, you're not going to have the finances to do it. And so I think it's also like saying, hey, you know, this building wasn't the end and we're going to aggressively pay down the debt. We're going to aggressively open the doors to our community and let as many people use it as we can. And so, so yeah, that'd be one of the, one of the end ones.
- [23:07]
B
Yeah, I can see that. And, and I think it's great. This part of why I love you is like, I feel like there's a lot of folks that are in your seat that do what you do for a living who do see the building as the mission. Though even the way they talk about it, they're like, hey, this is the most important thing. But actually it's just a tool to serve. Which is part of why I love Rise Point. Love your team, love, love what you're doing. Talk to us about, I think the idea there. I've also experienced this. I've seen churches with this where they build the building and then I l close to a church where they built a new campus. And then that campus grew by 50% in the first 10 weeks after they launched. And then they were scrambling, they were like, oh my goodness, now we've got to like do the next thing. How do we, how do we plan for this one? Assuming, like it might actually work, like people will show up, you know, how do we, how do we plan on the front end thinking about, you know, beyond. Okay, so that we get the thing open and then a bunch of new, new people show up.
- [24:06]
C
Yeah, and, and not just thinking that if you build it, they'll somehow magically come.
- [24:10]
B
Right, right. That's the tension of those two.
- [24:12]
C
Yes, the tension of those two things. So yeah, I mean, I think having the right, you know, strategic design partner or like a partner to walk alongside you in some of that, whether that's like someone you know on the church growth side of the equation that can speak into some of that strategy or the multi site strategy side of the equation, I mean those are going to be very important voices. You know, like you mentioned, we want your facility to serve your mission, not be a lid. Sometimes when we take the lid off, we open, we solve a problem. Right. And that's kind of stating the obvious, but we've worked with churches where, you know, they're running three or four services, you know, they're maxed out. And so yeah, we go and we double the number of seats, we open a bunch of things, and instead of coming once every six weeks, everyone starts coming once every three weeks because there's more parking spots and more seats.
- [25:06]
B
Right.
- [25:07]
C
And so that's when you get that immediate 50%, you know, bump. And it's not from, you know, reaching more people necessarily. It's, it's literally just your attendance pattern changing.
- [25:18]
B
Right.
- [25:18]
C
So when you're sitting down and having these conversations, I think it's really important that you look at some of those trends. You're looking at your attendance data and you're, you know, you're sort of measuring, you know, what do we think this thing's going to do?
- [25:33]
B
Yeah, it's so good. That's fantastic. I love, I love this. So we've got, you know, there's a multiple, there's other ones that we want people to check out again. We'll put a link in the show notes, but it's just risepoint with an e.com unseminary. You can pick that up there. Top 10 mistakes churches make in construction projects from the mouth of someone who sees a lot of these. We don't want people to make these mistakes. How early in the process should a church reach out to you? So my, my sense is that we have churches reaching out too late in the process. But how early? Like, if we start thinking, you know, we're filling, you know, things are filling up, we're thinking about, we got to fix a kids ministry space. When in that process should they say, I gotta talk to Aaron and the team at Rise Point?
- [26:19]
C
Yeah, I mean, I think, like, if you talk to any salesperson in the, you know, on the planet, they'll tell you, like, well, you got to talk to me right away.
- [26:28]
B
Yes.
- [26:29]
C
The sooner the better. Like the sooner to buy a car, the sooner you should call me. Yeah, I mean, I think having the conversation and the right strategic triggers to know when you need to start, like the design process and the construction process, that's the key. So, you know, if you call Rise Point, you're not, you know, we're not starting architecture, we're not selling you services or anything like that. So I think bringing, bringing either us in or another trusted expert. You know, we say when you reach 80% capacity at your largest service, you need to have the conversation started.
- [27:08]
B
That's good.
- [27:10]
C
You know, you can be at 80% capacity at your largest service and be launching your first second service. Right. And that's very different than adding your fourth or fifth on a Saturday or something like that. But in general, we. We say that that's usually that tipping point where we want to at least say, what is the strategy? What is the plan? What are the triggers so that the facility itself doesn't become a lid to our growth.
- [27:40]
B
Yeah, that's good. That's. I like, That's a really good. I like a good tripwire like that. I think there's a lot of churches that are at that spot. And actually you can go on the Rise Point website and actually schedule like an initial call. Right. You can drop by there. Don't you tell us. Us a little bit about that. What am I committing to if I click the schedule to call button? What does that mean?
- [28:02]
C
Yeah, we've got a little Ask the architect series and stuff that's. That's rolling as well. But it basically just means you get to talk to someone who's a church guy or gal first, but who's an architect or a design professional. And they just want to meet you and hear a little bit about like, your church and your story and where you at and what are some of the questions that you have? What are some of the things that you're wrestling with? A lot of times we're pulling up examples from other churches and kind of like walking you through some ideas or pointing you in a direction that might be helpful. But yeah, on that call, we really want to get into what's. What's going on at your church, specifically, what are some of the concerns? What are some of the things that you're seeing or not seeing. And sometimes there's some homework assignment coming out of it. It like, right, hey, let's go get your attendance data. Let's take a look at some of these things. Let's try to figure out what's going on. Let's have someone take a picture in the parking lot. Because you're never in the parking lot on a Sunday morning. You're backstage or whatever. And. But yeah, it's a great first step in trying to figure out what you need to do with your facility.
- [29:11]
B
Yeah, that's fantastic. I've had multiple friends who have done that and just be so thankful for your team's interaction with them and just some helpful guidance in that even that initial call to be like, hey, here's a couple things. Here's a couple questions that they would ask that have you think about that? Yeah, it's not like we're committing to anything today. It's necessarily a conversation to get the ball rolling. I think that could be super helpful. Well, friends again we want to send you to RisePoint with an e.com forward/unseminary to pick up a copy of this 10 Mistakes. I think it's a super helpful resource that you could even just kick around with your leadership team. Hey, let's talk about these ones. Could be great. Any kind of final words. Just as we wrap up today's episode, we want to make sure that people hear about when we're thinking about construction projects.
- [29:56]
C
You know, I would, you know, I'd say construction is scary and it can be expensive and it's not what most of us went to school to do. So I would just say, like, take courage. Take like, man, the number of times that like, we've seen the Lord, like just show up in unbelievable ways when his church has stepped out in faith and said, hey, like, we're gonna, you know, we're gonna go take something on. And so I just say, like, have courage, like, do not be afraid. And you know, like, yeah, make it, you know, it's not about the building, right? It's about, it's about lost people and, and sharing the gospel. And so, yeah, if my mistakes can help you out in any way, I would love to share those with you.
- [30:48]
B
Love it. So good. Well, Aaron, this is a great, great conversation today. I appreciate you coming back on and helping us think through some of these issues. Again, we want to send people to RisePoint with an e.com to schedule that call or, you know, pick up the mistakes anywhere else. We want to send them online to track with you or with your firm.
- [31:08]
C
Nah, man, that's fine. I mean, they can find us on socials and stuff like that if they want to see like nerdy pictures of like church construction being built and like build guys walking around stuff, concrete getting poured or whatever. But. But no, it'd be great.
- [31:23]
B
Guys in hard hats, people in hard hats walking around, you know, half built buildings. It's good. Thanks so much, Aaron. Appreciate you, sir. Thanks for coming on today.
- [31:30]
C
Yeah, thanks, Rich. Bye.
- [31:33]
A
Thanks for tuning in to the Unseminary podcast. Drop by unseminary.com for more helpful resources for you and your team. There you will find articles, online courses, and so much more unseminary stuff you wish they taught in seminary. Presented by CDF Capital. Visit them at CDF Capital Unseminary.