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- [00:02]
A
Welcome to the Unseminary Podcast, the place where church leaders get practical insights, tips and strategies for ministry growth. Today, you're stepping into something bigger than just a conversation. This podcast is part of a bold mission to help 100 churches grow by 1,000 people. Whether you're dreaming of increasing your impact in your community, empowering your team, or reaching more people with the message of Jesus, you're in the right place. We're here to bring you the stuff you wish they taught in seminary, ideas and tools you can put into action this week to see transformation in your ministry. Let's dive in.
- [00:41]
B
Hey friends. Welcome to the Unseminary Podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. You're in for a real treat today. Today is a leader. You know you have those leaders in your life. You're like, man, I wish everybody could be exposed to this person and would follow along. And you feel like you're introducing a friend to friends. That's what today's conversation is and I hope at the same time it'll challenge you and encourage you as we think about the future. Excited to have Dave Ferguson back on the podcast from Exponential. It is a growing community of leaders committed to accelerating multiplication of healthy, reproducing faith communities. They equip multipliers through a variety of resources. You might know their big event Exponential, but that's not all they do. They do a lot of other stuff as well. Dave also was the co founder of Community Christian in Chicagoland and New Thing. We actually had 10 on recently for a follow up episode which is fantastic. So these will, this will come out at a similar time. Dave also wrote a book recently that I want you to pick up. It's called Multiplier How Healthy Leaders Create Lasting Impact. Dave, welcome to the show.
- [01:40]
C
Hey, thanks Rich. Good to be with you.
- [01:42]
B
Yeah. So glad you're you're here. Why don't you fill in the story for folks that don't know or maybe aren't following along. Give us, fill out the bio a little bit. Tell us a little bit about your background.
- [01:53]
C
Long story short. Yeah, in my early mid-20s I planted a church in Chicago with a whole bunch of friends. God was very, very kind to it. It grew. We have pretty large and we had locations across the city in the suburbs. Out of that, then we started planting churches. Our first one was in Denver, then Southern California and then Detroit, then New York, then Boston. And pretty soon we made a shift that we went from not only reproducing new churches, but helping reproduce networks of new Churches. And that turned out to be a bigger deal than we realized. And we got opportunities then to do that in Europe and then in Africa. And next thing you know, fast forward 15, 20 years, and we were in 69 countries. And this will sound better than it is, but we got to help plant over 35,000 churches. And at the same time, we also started exponential. And so all three of those things had seemed to have God's favor on. It grew. And in the last year, I apprenticed a new lead, Pastor Ted Canaris, that you referenced, who is, I guess, recently on the podcast. Yes, doing a great job at Community. And then on top of that, we move new thing underneath exponential. So exponentially acquired a new thing. And for us, that feels really good. It was pretty. Pretty easy transition, but feels really good because we have something we call the 16 mission that we're going after, and it's starting to feel actually achievable now. So cool. I think that's all the things.
- [03:33]
B
Yeah, that's it. Just. That's it. Yeah. That's amazing. It's so good. And, you know, there's a lot I respect about you and your leadership, but one of the core things I love is you've really given your life to multiplication. You're focused on this idea, helping us think about, and then really, in the best sort of way, poking and prodding and pushing us to come back to this idea. I think for many of us, the word multiplication is the kind of thing, we can hear it so many times, we kind of tune it out. Or it. Like, what does that actually mean? Aren't we all committed to multiplication? Isn't it. Isn't that just what it means? So why does it still matter to the church today? Really lay it on thick here. Why is multiplication such a big deal?
- [04:16]
C
Yeah, I mean, two things real quick. I mean, one, for every one of your listeners, if they're involved in ministry, I mean, they want. They're trading their life and they want to make the greatest impact they can. And I'm telling you, when you don't invest in multiplication, you're short selling yourself. You're not. Gonna. You're. You're not gonna get to make the kind of impact that God intended for you to or you possibly could. So, I mean, let me give you a quick example so it becomes real tangible. So two weeks ago, I was in Long Beach, California, and I ran into Matt Larson. Matt's a guy who did a leadership residency with us probably. Man, it's been a long time ago now. 15 years ago. So he basically came, spent a year with us at Community. Really sharp leader, but he didn't really understand how to multiply. And we kind of helped him understand how to do that. So he does that, goes back to. Goes back to Ventura, California, plants Anthem Church, and they've planted 15 churches. So, wow, think about this, this, this. And I don't know how you keep score, but this is how I keep score with my own. How am I making a difference? So, like, even, like if I'm taking a day off in Chicago, Matt's still working in Ventura, California, and he's planting churches. Right.
- [05:32]
B
Amazing.
- [05:32]
C
And I, you know, you've heard me probably say, like, my favorite quote from Bob Buford, my fruit grows in other people's trees. That's what multiplication does. Instead of just having one tree, you get a whole orchard. Or Troy McMahon, who's one of my best friends, my wife's getting ready to go to Kansas City to see his wife in just a few hours here. And I mean, again, probably 15 years ago, they took 25 people who moved from Chicago to Kansas City. We blessed them and sent them with some money. They've gone to multiple locations. They've started four networks there in Kansas City and have probably planted somewhere between, you know, 60 and 70 churches. Yeah.
- [06:11]
B
It's amazing.
- [06:12]
C
I mean, again, if I can say it this way, like, I count that.
- [06:16]
B
Yes, yes.
- [06:19]
C
So if you just want to kind of focus on just your thing, you will never, ever make the kind of impact you can if you invest in multiplication, of multiplying other leaders and the other thing. So one, it's in your best interest because this game not to make money. None of us are making any money. Right.
- [06:35]
B
Yeah.
- [06:36]
C
Because you like, this is the best way I can make a difference. And if you're not doing multiplication, you're short selling yourself. But let me add one more thing. Yep. It's also how the mission gets accomplished. I mean, if you wanted to. Acts 1:8, Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, into the earth. And Jesus said, okay, here four more guys. Last time before I leave, I want to. Here's the mission. Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria ends the earth. The only way that that's going to happen is if there's a movement. And movement does not happen unless there's multiplication.
- [07:05]
B
Yeah, that's so good. Yeah. And there's, you know, one of the things I appreciate about kind of you and the broader exponential movement. I think you've helped really sharpen this conversation, tighten this up and get clarity for us, which I think is is positive. And you know, I bump into a lot of churches that are struggling, a lot of teams that are struggling with getting their, their staff to be Ephesians 4 type people, people that are equipping others that are multiplying others that they. And there's an interesting connection between these two, right? Somewhere we thought, oh, you could reach a bunch of people but not actually equip anyone, which is so strange. Right? It's a strange. And actually there's only a tiny fraction of churches that, that are actually multiplying today. Most are only doing addition. I think this, this thinking is one of the ways I think you've helped us sharpen this up. Why do you think that math is so stuck and kind of unpack that help us understand, you know, the kind of the problem we're trying to attack here.
- [08:00]
C
I think one of the things you're referencing. So I casually talked about the 16% mission. Let me back up. We want to see 16%. And I know your audience is bigger than the United States, but in the US that's where our exponential US focuses. We want to see 16% of all churches in the US become reproducing or multiplying churches. And that means that they've ever planted a church. In the last three years. When we first did the homework on this, it's only about 4% now. We've moved the needle in the last 10 years to 7%. We think in the next five years we can get to 10%. In the next 10 years we can get to 16%. And 16% is kind of that tipping point where, that tipping point, you get the right innovators and early adopters, they will convince the whole that this should be normative. And that's what we're trying to. So with that in mind, you're right. So we're still only at 7%. And I think the biggest, we're, we're stuck in an existing paradigm. We're like fish swimming in water that we think the best that we can do is grow a church. And I, and I think candidly, here's how I'd frame it up. I think most leaders wake up every morning asking the question, how can I grow my church? How can I grow my church? And that's a good question, but it's not a great question. It's not an Acts 1:8 question. It's not the kind of question that's going to allow you to maximize your impact. You know where you're sleeping in on a Saturday and you got a guy in Kansas City. And you got a guy in Southern California who's planting churches. A better question is, how do we multiply God's kingdom? And if. And if we could get. If we could get leaders to wake up every morning asking that question, okay, and again, I versus we. Because it's going to take us working together, not just grow, like addition, but actually multiply, multiplication, and not just my church, but actually God's kingdom. I mean, it's going to make a huge difference in the kingdom, and I think. So when you get stuck in that kind of addition, like, how do I grow my church? It impacts decisions you make about money because you're going to, oh, I need. I need to keep that here so we can add another wing to our building. Versus, like, oh, guess what? Maybe if I sent that money to, you know, this church plant, it's going to result in 70 churches in Kansas City. I mean, it's highly leveraged, like Vent Spiritual Venture Capital is what it is. The decision we make about staff, you know, we want to hold on to our best staff instead of developing them. And then some of them who actually have the capability of starting other churches and even networks, blessing them and sending them out and going like, yeah, I'm a spiritual father and these are my kids. I'm cheering them on. So I think that's. We're kind of stuck in this paradigm, and it's not a biblical one, but it is a paradigm that we're stuck in.
- [11:01]
B
Yeah, I love that. And I've similarly been with a lot of leadership teams where we're in the kind of growth conversation. And I'll come at that from kind of the. Almost the opposite end, but you end in the same place, which you end up saying, like, this box is not big enough to contain the number of people that your church is hoping to reach. Like, we can't build a box big enough to do that. I don't care how much money. I don't care how good you are at fundraising. You can't do that. So we have to multiply. If you really think that we are trying to reach and make an impact in our community, if there's so many churches, say, we're for whatever city we're in, we're for Chicago. We're for whatever. If you're really for that, then you have to be, by definition, for multiplication and for other churches and for seeing, you know, this thing multiplying out, we can't get them all to come here. That's never going to work. That's just doesn't work at all.
- [11:51]
C
Here's the thing you can, though, do. I mean, you're right if it's just about their butts in your seats, whatever. But if it's about you bringing them and equipping them and then sending them out, oh, that's highly leveraged. Then that could be a really good use of a building or facility.
- [12:06]
B
Right, right. Yeah, absolutely. That's good. So, so much of this conversation, you know, I want to tap in your expertise. We got a lot of. A lot of executive pastors listening in. You know, you're have been in the. In one of the multiple seats you've sat in has been the kind of lead pastor seat. And let's talk to some XPs from your perspective as. As a, you know, lead pastor around this area.
- [12:28]
C
Stuff done. They're not just the. These are the executors.
- [12:33]
B
But let's. Let's think that through. So vision isn't just about getting up on Sunday and preaching about it. You've actually led organizations that have done this stuff, and, you know, you've. You've cast a compelling vision, but then have seen the organizations actually go out and make this stuff happen. So we think about it from our seat as an executive pastor. What is the executive pastor? Where do we actually come into play in this thing? What's our piece of the puzzle? How can we help kind of move this thing forward at an operational level? You named a couple things. Money, staffing, help us think through that.
- [13:02]
C
And the assumption here is, okay, so the lead pasture is pro multiplication, and now you have to execute the vision. Yeah, I think one of the things grab a hold of how do we create a multiplication culture? Because if you create a multiplication culture, you will literally become. People in your church will become unconsciously competent. I'm thinking of a real quick story. A friend of mine named Doug. Doug was a guy who was nominally involved at Community. All right, long story short, but only because his wife insisted he joined a small group that. That sue and I were leading. Now, I didn't have an apprentice leader in that small group, which is. Which is not good. Okay? That's how you don't create a culture. But we went through six weeks, and I went up to Doug and I said. I told him, I said, hey, actually, I said in front of the whole group, because he's the kind of guy I could do this to. I said, hey, I know this group would like to continue, but we can't continue unless we have an apprentice leader. Doug, will you be my apprentice leader?
- [14:07]
B
That's great.
- [14:08]
C
He's kind of like you, big guy and a bald head. He's beads. You sweat or pop it on top of his head. All right, I'll do it, I'll do it, I'll do it. So he agrees to be my apprentice leader. So I start meeting with him because the group was on Wednesdays. I'd meet with him on Tuesdays at Starbucks around 4 o' clock as he'd finish up work and we'd kind of. And I remember his first question to me was like, hey, so if I'm going to be an apprentice leader, I should read the Bible, I guess, right? I'm like, yeah, you probably should. Yeah. So I told him how I, how I do. But over the course of the next, oh, 14 months or so, you know, I basically apprenticed him through what we call the five steps. And here's, here's the fun part of this story. Okay, so Doug didn't have much of a church background. So he gets to the place where he thinks he's ready to lead a group and I think he's ready, which people ask me a lot. How do you know when a leader's ready? I think it's really, that it's that simple. When they think they're ready and you think they're ready, they're ready. And so I, I said, okay, why don't you take over this group? It'll be easy for me to go start a new group. You take. And he, he said, okay. I come back, I like two or three weeks later to Starbucks on Tuesday at 4 o', clock, sit at the exact same table where we would always sit was Doug and his brand new apprentice, Tim.
- [15:24]
B
Love it.
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C
And so Doug was like unconsciously competent. He was like, oh, I thought, I thought every church in America did that. I thought that's how it works. I didn't know I had a choice. And if you create a culture of multiplication, that's what will happen over and over and over again.
- [15:38]
B
Yeah, I love that. Well, and yeah, what a vivid picture. And you know, we've got to move our, our people and our systems towards, you know, continuing to multiply at every level. When you think about a church that's stuck and maybe is just focusing on addition, they're really in that, but they have a desire to want to multiply. Is your recommendation. Or maybe what you've seen happen, the churches that have actually made that pivot towards multiplication, is it like a ground up thing? Like we start with, man, we've got to get all of our team leaders getting apprentice. Let's go there and then we'll trickle up through the organization, which then leads to the conclusion. Oh, by the way, we're going to have to. We're going to multiply because we've kind of built this culture. Or is it better to go. Or maybe there's advantages to go one way or the other from the kind of the. Hey, we're going to declare this and that's going to kind of pull us towards multiplication. Do you understand what I'm saying? Ground up. Or we cast a vision. Yeah, yeah. In creating the culture. Yeah.
- [16:36]
C
If you haven't, if you, if you don't currently have that kind of culture, here's what I would encourage leaders to do. I do think it does start at the top with like the lead past the executive pastor. And I encourage leaders at every level. I said lead at the smallest level of your organization and lead at the largest level. And you train and trust everybody in between.
- [16:57]
B
Oh, that's good. That's good.
- [16:59]
C
You want. So for, I mean, all. Whatever. It was 30 some years at Community, I always led a small group and I tried to always have an apprentice leader. So you need to do that. And if you can get. Okay. And I think there is a moment where you declare, hey, this is who we are. And you decide if you want to buy in or not. You're firm but kind about that.
- [17:22]
B
Yep.
- [17:23]
C
And if you can get all of your staff, plus all the people that you consider as leaders and key influencers, which is probably somewhere around 16 to 20% of your total church, you get them bought into it. Once you get them bought into it and it'll probably take you a year and they're actually doing this stuff, then you preach a sermon on it, then you start casting vision on it, then you declare it for the whole. Because what will happen is that again, kind of back to that. Innovators and early adopters, when they're in the lobby and somebody comes up to them, goes like, hey, what do you think about this idea of apprenticeship? And we're all going to have apprentices or multiplying, they'll already have been done it. They'll have done it for a year and they'll be like, oh, yeah, I think this is awesome. And that's exactly what you want. Does that make sense?
- [18:10]
B
Yeah, it makes total sense. Yeah. And even what you're doing, I'm questioning
- [18:15]
C
if you're ready to make that shift. I wouldn't preach a sermon on it first because what they're going to do is if you're preaching a sermon on it and you're not doing this stuff, what happens is you implicitly and almost accidentally create a culture that says, oh, I don't actually have to do this stuff because the guy who's casting the vision only talks about it and doesn't actually do it. And so you create that culture, which is what we have a lot of.
- [18:39]
B
Yeah, yeah, for sure. I've seen a lot of that in, you know, in the churches I've been a part of. Even with stuff like the fact that, you know, we're leading in a group, you know, I've seen a number, not necessarily the lead pastors I've worked for, but in churches where there's, like, the lead pastor, they, like, elevate themselves out of that kind of thing, and they're like, oh, I don't need to interact with normal people. And that comes out, you know, I've. Because I've said it all the time to lead pastors. I'm like, even simply, like, I would way rather you that just leak out of you that you're. That you're apprenticing a leader in a small group. Then. Then we have some big thing on why apprenticing is important, because people will catch the small little things, the little breadcrumbs here and there. They'll catch that at a more powerful level than the big, let's put a. Let's get a brand name sticking on a wall, you know, kind of thing. That's cool.
- [19:28]
C
That's great, 100%, because it'll end up in your sermons. It'll. Sidebar, hallway conversations. Here's one of my favorite examples. You know Nikki Gumbel, right?
- [19:37]
B
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
- [19:39]
C
So Nikki's the guy who previously was the vicar at Holy Trinity Brompton. He was really the guy who kind of really brought out Alpha, which you might say is, I mean, right there with Billy Graham and the apostle Paul. Greatest evangelistic tools that we've ever had.
- [19:55]
B
Yes.
- [19:56]
C
One of the things I love about Nikki is I don't know how exactly how many years. It's probably been 40 years. Every semester for 40 years, he always leads an Alpha course.
- [20:06]
B
Yes, yes.
- [20:07]
C
There's a reason they have such a strong culture and so powerful and. And that's a big mistake. I mean, I think, as you know, we plant a church and starts to grow, and we're trying to figure out what can I do and what shouldn't I do? And then one of the first things that goes, oh, well, I just won't lead a small group anymore. I won't lead a missional community or more whatever is that smallest organizing principle is, you want to hold on to that train and trust everybody else to do everything in between. And as you continue to grow and scale. Yeah. Influence way out there. But, but, but hold on to this too.
- [20:37]
B
Yeah. Continuing to shout out, Nikki, I just think the world of Alpha and it's been so effective for our. Our church. And I had an opportunity to interact with him right in the teeth of COVID I was doing an interview with him and he. We were talking about some stuff, and I. It really marked. It was one of those, like, you lean forward and you're like, okay, that's interesting. He was talking about how he's like, you know, for years, the meal's a big deal for Alpha and like, you know, hospitality is a big deal for that. And he said, I was always critical of people that did Alpha online. He's like, I was always critical of people doing it over Zoom and was like, I would say, you can't do it over Zoom. You can't do it over Zoom. And he said, obviously people did it over Zoom and I wasn't stopping them, but I was. I poo pooed it. Well, well, then Covid came and he said exactly what you said. I'm still leading Alpha courses and our alpha groups. And so I'm in an alpha group. And what do you know? This is amazing. God works through this. And so I was really struck by that, that he, as a leader, would have the humility to say, hey, I was wrong, but I'm enough in the weeds of this thing to understand, okay, what are the actual implications for our ministry? I think that's a huge lesson for us to pull away. I mean, it's 35 million people will put through that.
- [21:53]
C
You know, one is, I remember that podcast, so thank you very much. I remember going, listening to him. Excuse me. And it shaped a lot of the ways I even thought about COVID from hearing from him on that. But. But I think. I think the. The second thing is, I think what you were kind of implying to. You have to be in the weeds in order to know how the next innovation is going to happen. I mean, if he wasn't doing that, he would have kept with his assumption, no, it's not going to work, and maybe made a lot of bad choices. Right, right.
- [22:28]
B
And we would end up in a, you know, very tough spot today in a lot of ways that that ministry continues to accelerate or that movement really continues to accelerate. You know, in these years, which is amazing. So one of the things let's talk about. So one of the things I've heard you say is that you're really build the case that multiplication has to be built on health, not on hustle. And, you know, there was a previous generation that was really valued. Like, we wanted leaders. We didn't want leaders that were burnt out, but we wanted them one step back from being burnt out. We wanted them like right there, right at the line. But what, you know, but I know that's not what you're advocating for, but it. But I think sometimes our teams, our people, our cultures can look at this and say, this feels like one more thing to do. So what's. Why does this distinction of health not hustle? How does that factor in when we're thinking about actually trying to become a multiplying organization? When we're, you know, we've got lots of other stuff to carry as we're thinking about it. Help us understand that.
- [23:28]
C
My experience, particularly working with church planters and other leaders, is they aren't afraid of hustle. And in fact, that's our default position that I, that I will. I can maybe outwork the next person and they're willing to do it for a good cause. But even though we are willing to do that, it actually gives us the wrong result. Because if we only hustle more, if only work more, you're not going to make the impact you could, like I've already described, if you're multiplying more. So I am constantly encouraging leaders, don't work more, multiply more, don't work more, multiply more. And that's how you make the biggest impact. The other part of that which is really important, I kind of have a conviction. We knew that we need to try to do the Jesus mission the Jesus way. We wanted the Jesus mission the Jesus way. And I think that has to do with. No, I'm going to try to. I'm going to try to be a great dad. I want to try to be a great husband. I want to try to be a good steward of this body that I have. I want to pay attention to what my thought life. I want to pay attention to my anxiety levels and am I feeling depressed? I want to make sure I'm okay spiritually. And I think if we're doing those kind of things, we're checking what I call these four gauges. I think we'll be healthy leaders. And here's the axiom that I've kind of led by, especially over the last couple decades is that you will reproduce who you are and what you do.
- [24:56]
B
Yes.
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C
So if you, if you want to reproduce unhealth, then be unhealthy. But like, if you really want, if you want the, if you want the, the guys in your church to be really good dads, you don't have to be a perfect dad, but just put in the effort and let them know that you're also putting in the effort. If you want to be. You want people to be, you know, really good spouses, then try to be that yourself because you're going to reproduce who you are and what you do.
- [25:22]
B
Yeah. That's so good. I really appreciate that you're, you know, that you're pressing on these issues. I think this is a. A critical thing, you know, for us, particularly as we, you know, I'm in a phase of my ministry where I'm looking on to like, okay, how am I handing this stuff off? What am I doing to try to help the next generation? And, man, I would love the next generation to. I think one of the things that particularly Gen Z leaders are attuned to is they seem to be naturally attuned to, like, we're not going to, like, drive over a cliff for this thing. We want to do this in a healthy manner. And you're not, obviously, you know, you're highly productive. You get a lot done. And Exponential is a highly productive organization. You do a lot, but we want to do it. I like that, what you're saying, you know, the Jesus mission, the Jesus way. That's actually at the heart of your most recent book, Multiplier. You talked, you kind of referenced these four gauges. Can you unpack that a little bit more at a high level? Help us understand what are the four gauges and what were you hoping with this book? Why, why another book? Why is this one? What are you hoping this accomplishes for churches?
- [26:22]
C
I think there's a lot of great content out there about personal health, emotional health, how to have a rule of life, that kind of stuff. And we, and we need to avail ourselves to it. I think there's also a lot of great stuff and some of it that I've helped contribute to around. How do you multiply, how do you develop leaders, how do you do hero making, all that kind of stuff. What I tried to do in this book, though, is show how those are so interconnected that if you really want to do this for a long time and that's how you make the biggest impact, it's only going to come if you're a healthy leader, because, again, you reproduce who you are. And so what we do is we kind of talk about the problem. And the problem that all of us face in the first couple chapters is what I call drift. And we drift because maybe frame it this way. I've never had a conversation with a young leader who tells me, hey, 15 years from now, here's my dream. I hope I'm 50 pounds overweight and divorced and compromising my core convictions. I've never had that conversation.
- [27:28]
B
Right.
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C
But we read about it almost every week, and I sometimes share the story. I mean, I was in a small group with some of the most influential pastors, maybe in the world, but definitely in Chicago for about eight or nine years. If I tried to reassemble that group today, half the seats would be empty. And I don't think it's. And I think it's because they. They drifted, and they unintentionally ended up someplace they never intended to be.
- [27:55]
B
Right.
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C
They didn't intend to end up, you know, in a hotel room with a woman. That wasn't plan A when they planted a church or to create a toxic culture, which really benefited them more than other people. I don't think that was, like, the. The goal from the very beginning. Does that make sense?
- [28:10]
A
Yeah.
- [28:10]
C
And I think what happens is we incrementally. We drift a little bit of time until in a variety of ways, we end up someplace we never intended to be. So one of the things that I do. I'll just. Maybe I'll show you here, too. I know.
- [28:28]
B
This is.
- [28:29]
C
This is. I'll just show you. And I don't. I know we're not doing anything on video, I don't think, but this is. This is kind of. This is my journal. Yeah, that's one from, like, December. Wow, that's old. There we go. That's actually yesterday. And so, like, I just write these four letters, rpms in my journal almost every day. And R stands for relational. How are things with sue, the kids, my friends? P stands for physical. How am I doing stewarding this body? For me, it's, you know, a trip to the fitness center or out running on the prairie path. How am I doing mentally? Which has to do with kind of stress or anxiety or thought life. And then how am I doing spiritually? What's going on between me and God? And then so I just make a little gauge here, and I kind of just, where am I? Where am I? And then I. I actually go ahead and give myself. I like to keep Score. We got executive passengers. They'll like this. You should keep.
- [29:22]
B
Yeah, they like numbers, stuff that ends up on spreadsheets.
- [29:24]
C
It's good. So you can see, like. So I gave myself a score for each of those on a scale of 1 to 10, then a composite, which was 5, which was actually down from 5.25 the day before. And I think that's because, as you can kind of hear, I got a little bit of a cold, so I'm not feeling well. And. But I, I try to do this every day and I encourage leaders. Those four gauges, relational, physical, mental, spiritual. If you'll just spend four minutes every day.
- [29:51]
B
That's so good.
- [29:52]
C
Reflecting on those four areas prayerfully, how am I doing relationally? How am I doing physically? How am I doing mentally, How I'm doing spiritually? You're going to drift. We all drift. But here's the thing. You're not going to go a whole month or a whole year or a decade and suddenly wake up, you know, and someone's dragging you into court and you're going, like, how in the world did I end up here?
- [30:19]
B
Yeah.
- [30:20]
C
It's a very practical tool for. Here's how you can do this every day. And, and let me throw this in Rich too, because I, Yeah. I want to make sure I hit this. And then if you can do it in community.
- [30:31]
B
Yes.
- [30:31]
C
That'll way mitigate how much you lie to yourself. It's like if the small group or a missional community every week just checking in or once a month with another group that you're, you're working with. I think that if you do that, it's not foolproof, but it'll be a big, big, big help.
- [30:51]
B
Yeah. Yeah. The human, human propensity for self delusion is incredible. Right. Like, our ability to like, become, to lie to ourselves, let alone other people, is amazing. You know, I want to just honor you for, I think, you know, obviously I saw it exponential this year where you're rolling it out. I've. I haven't read the entire book yet, but I've read a bunch of it and I really appreciate that at this phase in your journey, you're raising this flag, I think, and connecting it so, you know, integral. Integrally to the multiplier, the multiplication mission. I think that is so critically important because we, you know, we've seen those leaders who make a series of foolish, unwise decisions that ultimately end up in a tragic spot. And oftentimes it's like, I don't know what to say to people how do you avoid that? And I like that you have. You've put together a framework here to help us think that. Now, as you've rolled the book out,
- [31:41]
C
how are you, Rich?
- [31:42]
B
52.
- [31:43]
C
52. Okay. Like, I'm convinced God's probably got at least another 20 years. Sure. You know, and in some ways, it'll probably be your highest impact years. Yep, yep. But if one of these gauges goes way south and takes you out, like, there's 20 of the best years of difference making that we don't get from Rich Birch. And. And it's not just Rich Birch. It's every one of the people listening to the podcast. I mean, I think there's a whole bunch of people that God goes like, no, I got 75 years or 80 years of difference making and let's do the whole run.
- [32:18]
B
Yeah, no, I appreciate that. That's why I think it's. It's. I'm not doing a good way. I'm not doing a good job articulating. I think it's a gift that you've given to the church because you're helping us actually attack this problem in a really super practical, good way that. That I can see it making a huge difference. And I would agree with you. I think what I realize after being however many decades in ministry, there's like a real cumulative effect here, that it's like, you know, the. Then each decade, I thought things were great in my 30s, and then I hit my 40s, and now I'm in my 50s. I'm like, oh, my goodness, there's. And sometimes people will say. They'll ask, you know, kind of questions like, you know, hey, how do you basically, you know, how do you do what you do? Or whatever. And a part of. I'm like, well, you just stay in it. Like, you just keep doing it right, and stay in the game and stay plugged in and.
- [33:00]
C
Yeah. And the longer your influence continues to grow, I mean, like, in the kindest, humble way, if Rich Burch emails somebody, you respond. Because, I mean, you put in so much time. You mean now that you. You're able to get things done quicker that you couldn't before? Because people know who you are and they're interested in what you're doing. Right. And. Yeah, and I think that's true with all of us. Our influence will just continue to grow if we stay faithful to this.
- [33:26]
B
Yeah, it's great. So I want to. I'm gonna. We're gonna talk about where you get the book in a minute, but just before we get there. Of the four at. This book's been out now for a while, and it's out in the world. World. It's. You know, as an author, I know that's a very different experience. You go from writing and then it goes out there, and then people react to it. Are there any of those four gauges that you've been surprised by the reaction or you've noted the reaction? Like, oh, that's interesting. I'm hearing from people. Or I've seen, you know, maybe it's a conversation or that sort of thing that any four of those have kind of bubbled up in discussion.
- [33:58]
C
I think the one. I think that's what surprised me so far in the conversation is how important the physical gauge, how. How underestimated it is and how important it is. I was just in a conversation this morning with somebody who's telling me that he's really been working on these four gauges, and for him, in the last years, dropped 40 pounds. And he's like, it has. It has really shifted my influence, my. My leadership. He said, I just. I feel more confident walking into a room, and I'm. Yeah, I think probably as Christian leaders, we probably downplay that one the most. And I'm. I am surprised. I'm not saying it's the most important of the four. No, I am surprised how important it is. And the feedback I'm getting on it.
- [34:37]
B
Yeah, that's good. You can see that. I can see that for sure. I know. Yeah, absolutely. And I. You know, the days I arrived in a peloton in the morning, I'm better at. I'm a better husband those days, I'm a better. You know, it's. It just works out, which is. Yeah, that's really cool. All right, so we want to. So when I. As I've been going through this, what I've been struck by is, man, I think this could be a real gift for our teams to go through together. I think this could be a great tool for our staff teams. Maybe if I'm an executive pastor, it's like, hey, what if we went through this with our senior leaders first, and then maybe we roll it out to our teams or something like that? Where can people pick up copies of this book? Where do we want to send them online to get them? I'm assuming Amazon. Is there anywhere else we want to send them?
- [35:17]
C
You know what? Let me give you two things that comes to mind. One is if they're ready to make a commitment, say, hey, I want to be a multiplier if you go to exponential.org org multiplier exponential.org multiplier there's a place there where you can say, hey, I want to be a multiplier. We'll explain how you can be involved in meetups and cohorts and resources. We actually have a multiplier digital check in so you can actually do this online every day, that kind of stuff. So that's one place that would be, I think, really fun. But you're right, I'm. A lot of people are using it as a book to go over with their, with their staff or with their teams or even their networks. And if, if they're going to get, I think it's like six or seven or more, maybe it's a dozen. Somewhere in that neighborhood you're going to get a more than a few. Go and email me and I'll, I'll tell you how you can get a bulk discount and that's daveponential.org dave.org say hey, I'm, I'm going to do this with my team. How can I get a bulk discount? And my assistant Sarah or me will get back to you and let you know how you can do that.
- [36:18]
B
Yes, that's fantastic. Friends, I don't say this with every author that comes on, but I really, I would highly endorse, would recommend that you do that. I think this could be the book you should pick up. Maybe this summer. Read it by yourself, read it with a small group of people. I do think this could be. I think it's a critical resource. I think this is more than just like, hey, it's another book. I think there's a real potential here for this to shift the conversation in a really positive way in the broader church. So I would love more people to pick it up. Well, Dave, this has been incredible. I really appreciate you being here today. Any final words as we kind of land today's episode?
- [36:56]
C
I would probably come back to if I was going to leave people with. One thought is just remember that you're going to reproduce who you are and what you do.
- [37:04]
B
So good. Appreciate you, Dave. Thanks so much. We want to send people to exponential.org is there anywhere else online we want you want them to go if they want to track with you or with the movement or anything like that.
- [37:13]
C
I mean I'm on most of the socials, so you can follow me there. Davefurgerson.org Daveferguson.org if you know for some reason you want me to speak or do something or find other books that I've written.
- [37:24]
B
Yeah, that's great. Thanks for being here today, sir. Appreciate that.
- [37:27]
C
Hey, my pleasure.
- [37:29]
A
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