Rich (3:21)

Wow. You and my mom read my book. I appreciate. Yes, no, that's good. I really appreciate that. Super kind of you to say that's, that's humbling frankly, for you to say that. And so why don't you kind of tell us a little bit about the church, kind of tell us about journey, give us a sense, talk about your role, kind of set the table for us.

John Sel (3:39)

Yes, you've. You said it pretty well. We're in central Florida. We're a little ways north of Orlando. So we're in a county called Volusia county, which is the same county that has Daytona beach in it. And our area is a lot of kind of blue collar people. They're just incredible men and women of God. There's incredible men and women who are moving here and they're the kind of people that would just give you the shirt off their back. They're ready to serve, they're ready to be engaged, to make a difference in the world around them. And so for us, we're not in a big metropolitan area. So sometimes when we hear from other churches that are in big, you know, massive cities, sometimes it's hard to relate to how that translates into small towns like we're at and medium sized cities. And so for us what's been helpful is podcasts like these where I hear the principles. Principles I've read in a book at a church that's maybe normal size or a little bit smaller, more. More kind of a normal size city. And so that's kind of us. We've been multi site for about 10 years and we're continuing to see God kind of multiplier ministry. And yeah, that's about it for, for where we're at.

Rich (4:49)

Yeah, that's cool. What's your. I know this is, this is germane because of what we're talking about today. Give us a sense of the kind of growth trajectory of the church. I know you're a humble guy, so you're not going to be like, oh, this, we've grown by this and this. But kind of tell us a little bit of that story that'll help set the table a little bit for where we're going.

John Sel (5:06)

So we were kind of a traditional, you know, First Baptist Church of Orange City and our lead pastor came a little over 20 years ago and he brought just kind of a church planting mentality with him and really a new vision, a new direction for the church. And so I would say our growth has been really just steady growth over those 20 years. And really in the last five to six we've seen some incredible back to back years of double digit growth, you know, in the, you know, 10 to 15% growth year over year. And it's just been kind of a steady year after year making slow, small progress is the way I would describe it. So it has not been one of those overnight, hey, we went from 100 people to 10,000 or anything like that. It's just been a slow go every year. How do we get better? How do we continue to be a church that reaches people right here in our community?

Rich (5:56)

Yeah, that's so good. And that's actually really common. I'm working on a book right now about breaking the 2000 barrier. And typically, actually one of the interesting benchmarks is when a church breaks a 2000 barrier. Actually it's common. The most common thing is for the lead pastor to have been there for 15 years. And so.

John Sel (6:13)

Wow.

Rich (6:14)

You know, I think oftentimes people think like oh, like you say, it's like, oh, it just something happens, you know, those stories, because they're unique, you know, they're.

John Sel (6:21)

Yes.

Rich (6:22)

And so, you know, this is great to kind of dig into some of, you know, like you say, the more normal, you know, obviously what God's doing is not totally normal but, but we're going to learn from it. So one of the things that we all struggle with is this ide idea of getting people to take next steps and plugging into connection get, you know, how do we move new here guests, get them to actually make, you know, some sort of connection to the church. From your vantage point. Why is that hard for, for so many churches or maybe so many guests to actually make those steps?

John Sel (6:52)

Yes, I think there's a lot of factors that go into that. I think the problem we keep running into or have run into over the years is we have so many new people walking through the doors, and many times we find, hey, they kind of get stuck in this. They'll once or twice, maybe three times, we don't see them again. And we saw that gap of how do we connect those that walk in the doors and help them take that step to really engage for the long haul? And so I think some of it, what I found is it can be multifaceted. Like, I think sometimes as people who've been in the church for maybe many years, we forget what it's like walking through the. Through the doors of a church. And so we have to constantly, as leaders, keep going back to, what is that like? And so the way we talk about it a lot at Journey Church is when someone walks through the doors of your church, it means God is working in their life. The Holy Spirit is doing something to create a desire for them. And what that means is I think anytime God leads people to take any kind of step, the enemy and the flesh and sin wants to creep in and use anything as a distraction to kind of keep them from taking the next step. And so what I found sometimes that where that can happen is when people walk in the fear of, am I? The fear of, you know, what do I do? There's not a clarity on what they're wanting. And so for us, what we've prayed about and what we try to hone in on is we want to do everything in our power to recognize that those who walk through the door, God has led them to make that step, that it's a big next step, and we want to do everything we can to remove the barriers. And so how we do that, I think is greater clarity, like, what steps do we want them to take and how do we make it as clear as we absolutely can, can as clear as possible for them to know when and how to take that step. And then beyond that, what we found is, is a lot of times the question people are asking when they're new is, do I belong here? Like, am I a fit here? So no matter what those steps are, what we found is it's, it needs to be relational. And you have to put some of those people on your team that are gifted with hospitality, with making somebody who's brand new feel like they're welcome and at home and try to put them in those. On those teams and on those next steps areas to help with that process. Because a lot of times people are asking the question, like, I don't know if I'm a fit here. I don't know if they want me here. And so we have to go above and beyond to, to kind of help them know they're welcome. We've thought of you, we've prayed for you, and here's that very next step that we want you to take here. It's as clear as day for you.

Rich (9:34)

Yeah, that's so good. I know and we're going to get into this, but I often say to churches that I do coaching with, I'm like, you cannot make this too clear. Like, you've got to keep. We've got to work on. How do we. What is the step we need people to take? How do we. How do we make it more obvious? How do we make it more clear? It's literally a bottomless pit of like, we just got to keep making it. And I think it's true. I. One of the things I've noticed in my own. So, you know, I'm in, you know, whatever my third, fourth decade of leading now, I guess and which is weird to say, but the. I do think people have changed. I think there was a time when I first started where I think people showed up at church and they weren't really sure why they were there. But I think that has shifted over time as we've become a more and more unchurched. All of our churches, all our communities are more unchurched today than they were 20 years ago. People don't just stumble into a church and they're not sure why they're there. They're showing up looking for something. They're. They're asking questions when they arrive and we want to meet them with that. So when someone visits for the first time, actually talk us through that. What are the first couple of weeks look like? What is that experience? Like, how do you help move them from. I arrived and I maybe have got some fear. I'm asking do I belong here? What are some of those kind of meaning the first steps you lead them through to get them towards meaningful connections.

John Sel (10:48)

So at our church, every location has a tent. It's a new here tent. And so the first step that we're communicating the. The clear step on that first or second week is and stop by the tent. Like I know that's a big step and we have to remind our serve team and behind the curtain that seems simple to us. But like to a new person at a church, even going to a tent or making themselves known by filling out a connect card, even if it's digital, like that's a big step for somebody. And so a Lot of our communication is go to the tent. We'd love to meet you. We've got a gift card for you to celebrate the step of faith you took to be here today. And so once they take that step, it starts us being able to follow up, you know, through text messages, emails, phone calls, and really encouraging them to step into our Next steps class. And so when they step into our Next steps class, one of the things we're even constantly trying to think through what we call it, because class probably isn't the best way to describe it. And we're actually revamping it right now. But for us, even that Next steps class is a roundtable. It's relational. It's getting them around our Next Steps team that wants to hear their story, you know, what brought you through the doors, wants to begin to hear about maybe what's on their heart. Where are they at? What's their next faith step. And so those are the first couple of weeks. If we can encourage them to stop by the tent, that allows us to stay in contact with them relationally. And then the next step would be go to one of our Next Steps classes after a service.

Rich (12:14)

Yeah, that's good. Can we pull apart a bit of the detail there?

John Sel (12:18)

Sure.

Rich (12:18)

Just because I know people are asked, are wondering this because I get these questions. So it sounds like when you arrive at the new here tent, there's a gift card there. Where's that gift card for? What is that? What is the value of that and why a gift card? Talk to us about that.

John Sel (12:33)

Yes. So for now we've, and we've experimented, we'll change this up like constantly. But right now it's for a local coffee shop and it's literally a five dollar gift card. It's just a thank you to say thank you for coming. It's, it's a little gift bag. It's got information about our church, obviously. And it's just a step to the way we phrase it is. We know it's a big step of faith you took to be here today. And so we just want to celebrate the fact that you made it in the room. And so that's what it is. $5 on big events. We'll do, you know, Journey church cup and make it a little more, you know, more substantial. But it's just a $5 gift card to a local coffee shop.

Rich (13:14)

Yeah, that's great. And I love the, you know, the, the thinking behind that, friends that are listening in is sometimes what I see churches do, they're like, hey, if you Want to get connected or if you, if you've got interested about your next steps or if you're wondering where to go, drop by the, the tent in the, you know, outside. People are not asking that question when they first come. So we, we, we've got to take a celebratory step. And I like what you're saying. I love that language of like we want to celebrate the face deputy by being here today and we want to give exchange for that. People will do that for a $5 gift card. They'll or you know, or you know, coffee mug or whatever. You know, that's good. And then the other thing that caught my attention you said was, you said. And we follow up with texts and emails, talk about how you know, how many of that, what's that communication process look like? This is another area where I see churches drop the ball all the time.

John Sel (14:03)

Sure. It's a variety. There's a workflow that we use through our database system planning center that is owned by our weekend experience experience, you know, team members. But basically it starts with an email from our lead pastor with a short video for them to watch a message directly from him. It includes a text message or phone call from the location pastors. Within two weeks it includes other text messages and emails. So it lasts about six weeks. And it's more information about how to take steps at our church. And so some of its vision, a lot of it is is geared towards stepping into the Next steps class. But yes, it's multiple and it's a variety and it's over the span of six weeks. And then we even have you know, workflows built out that you know, if somebody goes through that six week process without taking the next step that periodically we'll check back in with them just to see how we can serve them.

Rich (14:58)

Now I'm just because I know how this goes. Would you be willing to share like one pager that kind of explains what those six weeks are? Do you have that even just a screen capture of the workflows? Would you.

John Sel (15:07)

I can put that together for you. Ye, yeah.

Rich (15:09)

Because what I know will happen is this is going to go out and then people are going to ask you, you're going to get flooded with emails. So I'll save you that step. You can look at the show notes below. We'll link to that. People are very, are interested in that, you know that step for sure. So that's super helpful. Also love that how often does the next steps class talk us through? What does that look like? How often does that happen? Give us a sense of what goes on in that.

John Sel (15:32)

I would say this has been one of the. One of the biggest. It seems like a small tweak for us, but it's been a game changer in kind of back to that question. How do you overcome the barrier of helping people get connected consistently is we've just made it a consistent month to month process. So week one, weekend one is step one. No matter what weekend it is, there's maybe a couple weeks out of the year, you know, where we may shift it a week. But week one is next steps one. That's where you connect to, you hear more about our vision as a church. You can learn about the gospel, like we'll share the gospel, give people a chance to receive Christ, sign up baptized. Step two is join a team. So you're discovering how God's wired you and what teams are on your location that you can plug in. Week three is baptisms across all of our location. And so if you went to step one, accepted Christ, you've never been baptized and you want to be baptized that month. Every location, every single month on the third weekend. And then the fourth week is typically there's no class or any step that week other than that's the week that most of our new team members on our serve team will serve for the first time or shadow for the first time. And so we want to celebrate them that morning. We want to make sure to connect them relationally as they join the team. And so we just do that every single month. And so it just, it gives in. Those next steps classes happen after every service on every location. So those were some of those little tweaks for us that it seems small, but taking that step has actually allowed more and more people to take the step when they're ready. When God moves in their life.

Rich (17:09)

Yeah, I want to underline that that is best practice. We've heard something similar like that in lots of churches. Similarly modeled on Church of the Highlands Growth Track. Some of the lessons that they've learned around the consistency is a huge issue for sure. Can you jump in at any one of those or do you. So like, are all the people that are here this month they're going to be invited to the first step or can they jump in on any step?

John Sel (17:28)

They can jump in on any step. And so the communication to the new person is man. Yep, here's next weekend or today. Like if they're in the service today, right after service, walk into the, into the next steps room. We've got Free food for you. Lunch if it's lunchtime. You know, we've got Journey kids going on, so your kids will be taken care of. And so we try to make that as easy as possible, whether it's that day or, you know, sometimes it's six months later after they visited for the first time. But we want to always have it available for when God moves and they're ready.

Rich (17:59)

That. John, that's a gift you just gave to people here like this. Friends, I've joked in other contexts, boring stuff grows churches. And this is an example of one of those, like, yes, putting together a class like that that is going to go every single weekend, weekend, week out. Like, man, the. The kind of. The amount of momentum that builds for church like Journey is. Is incredible. That. That's. That's amazing. So when you think about that weekends, you know, you. What moments in a weekend have you found is, like, the most effective for both lowering fear and inviting that next step? Are there times during the service or are there moments that you're saying like, hey, we want to make sure that we're communicating clearly, doing what we need to do to make sure that we're. We're helping people take these steps?

John Sel (18:44)

Yes, for. For us, obviously, there could be fluctuation and variation week to week, but. But for us, most weekends after the very first worship song is just a quick welcome moment. And that welcome moment is specifically for new or newer people. And so it's just a chance to say thank you for being here. We highlight the tent. We usually. We've started using language that I don't know how difficult it was to get in the room. I don't know how smooth it's gone, but you made it. That's a big deal. You've made it.

Rich (19:16)

I like that. I really like that.

John Sel (19:17)

And we've been praying for you, man. We've been expecting you. We just want to celebrate you. So, you know, you pass it on the way in. But if you haven't had a chance to stop there on the way out, it'll take, you know, less than a minute. Just stop by, let us meet you real quick and give you that gift. Talk about the gift card. And then usually that will be. If it's a next steps class weekend, that will mention something there because we've already got their attention. But on those weekends, we will also allow that to be the very last thing that we say. And so if next steps class is that day as you leave, we make it as clear as possible, people with signs, I mean, we don't want them to miss it. That. Remember, next steps is today. Like we mentioned earlier in service, we'd love to have you step into next steps class. And so kind of that welcome moment and at the very end is the norm. And then periodically, our lead pastor will mention it in his sermon time, like, in his. In his main message. And sometimes we'll strategically use a video. You know, how someone took a step into that class and the difference it's made. But I would say most weekends, it's that welcome moment in the very end.

Rich (20:21)

Yeah. Kind of the top and the end. To kind of cap the service with that. I love that. I really like the language that you're using there. I think I'm gonna steal that. I love this idea of, like, man, I don't know what it took for you to get here, man, you. It's an. You did an incredible thing. Like, it's. It's validating to people. You did the right thing by being here today. And, man, like, God is already at work in your life. Like, you may not say it like that, but. But that's what we believe. Like, the fact that they just showed up, man, we don't want to miss that. Like, I often think of. Particularly when we deal with a lot of unchurched people who don't normally attend church, like, that first step, man, is a giant step. Like, they're changing something huge in their area. That's incredible.

John Sel (21:01)

And I think that's the thing that's so easy to forget, is, like, especially if you follow Jesus for years, you know, you forget what that experience is like and what God's doing. I had someone explain this to me yesterday. He's been at our church for a number of years now, and when he came in, was absolutely broken. And he's like, I just don't want you guys to forget, like, the people who walk through your doors on Sunday. He's like, I was ready to end my life, and I was given one last shot, and I walked through the doors. The conversation I had in the parking lot and the conversation I had and then the message and how God used it, and I just told him. I was like, thank you for sharing that, because I don't ever want to lose that perspective. I don't ever want to lose what a big deal it is when somebody who's unchurched or far from God or doesn't know the Lord takes that step just to walk through the doors on a Sunday or a Saturday night. It's a big deal.

Rich (21:50)

Yeah. Not that People need more vision. But I'm going to layer on a similar story I had two weeks ago with a guy and he was reflecting back on his experience when he first came. This is at our church. And he's like, he's a band's man, drives a truck, all this kind of stuff. And he's incredible young, incredible guy. And God's done amazing thing in his life in the last couple years. And he was talking about the very first weekend and he said, you know, he said, when I showed up, up, pulled up in my pickup truck and there was some guy out front with the Mickey Mouse hands. Were like, so many churches, you know, they got the guys with signs and Mickey Mouse hands and come and park here and all that. And he said, I remember I pulled into a spot where they told me to park and I sat there for like a few minutes and just watched people come in because I just didn't know, like, are these. And it gets back to your belong thing. Who are these people? Like, are these. And he said, I saw a few people that were like, okay, like they're, you know, they're dressed normal. I guess I didn't have to wear a suit. I guess it really is okay. And. And I thought, wow, like, I would have. The way this guy presents himself, I would have never thought that, like, he would have struggled with, like, oh, I don't know if I can go in. I don't know if I can go in. But man, people come with that, that kind of anxiety when they arrive for the first time. We can't lose that. Let's talk about baptism specifically. One of the things I want to kind of double clip on, click on is kind of focus in on that. I know many of us want to see people take that, that step. It's an important step, obviously, in their spiritual journey. It also helps us understand kind of what's happening in our church. How. How have you found kind of the right way to inject the baptism experience? It's obviously step three. It's a big part of the puzzle. But how do you build towards those moments? What does that look like? Kind of talk to us about how baptism fits into this.

John Sel (23:26)

Sure, it's. It's a big deal for, you know, for us as well. And it's been one of those things on our. As we. We think about new people, how do we continue to make this step available? You know, it's part of the command of what Jesus gave the church was to make disciples and baptize them. And so as we were Thinking about that, that's part of offering it every single month. The direct feeder of that, if you want to think about it, behind the curtain is next steps class, step one. And so that's where they'll indicate that they're interested or that they need to be baptized or want to be baptized. And then we have a volunteer team that follows up with them as well. Just kind of hearing their story. Sometimes there's gospel conversations you can have in those. Those relationships there, just sharing the gospel, you know, with them. Sometimes that's where they come to Christ, is they're. They're interested in this baptism thing. They don't know what it's all about. And so they'll follow up, get their story, kind of listen to them, connect with them. And then the way that we do it right now is the baptisms are just a part of our worship moments. So as the band is singing, we use imag up on the screen, real close up up in the baptistry. And you know, those are moments where they have a baptism shirt. So they'll come that day, meet with the baptism team that's already followed up with them. And that team just walks them through relationally, through the whole day, pictures, kind of celebrating that. We encourage them to bring their family on those weekends. And so that's probably the main kind of stream for us, is we use that as our main on ramp every single month, every single location, we offer it. Now, that's to say, I know this will be encouraging to some people out there. That doesn't mean that there's baptisms happening every service on every location. We offer it every single month. But depending on the size of the location and the congregation there, it doesn't mean that that's happening in every. Every campus, every service, every single month. But a lot of months there are because we offer it and we have that on ramp. And then for us, we do two strategic events a year where that step is incorporated into our worship services and people can take the step to receive Christ and be baptized on the very same day in the very same service. And so those two for us is the weekend after Easter. And then we do a special event. It's our only event that we do on a weekend that's all church, so all locations in one place. And it's actually coming up in October. The reason we strategically placed it there is many times for us, I don't know about other. Other parts of the country or the world, but right here in central Florida, October, November is like dead season for, for us we would see attendance dip and all these different things. And so we just prayed through what, what can we do to leverage this time to reach more people? And so we do that as an all church event. It's outdoor. We call it Church at the park. And we share the gospel, encourage people to invite their friends and family and they can be baptized on that day. So. So we've done that kind of rhythm for two years in a row and we've had over. So our church averages a little over 2,000 people in person. It's continuing to grow. And the last two years, both years, we've had over 400 people take the step of baptism. And those are just students and adults. So we're Baptists and we don't baptize infants. And so that's just adults and students that are taking this, the step of baptism. And this last year, it's felt like, like even beyond what we would ever expect, like 400 and over. 450.

Rich (26:52)

That's amazing.

John Sel (26:53)

Praise God across the year. So it just feels like God has breathed on that in a way that we, we didn't expect. So I love that.

Rich (27:02)

So I want to come back to those two times a year in a, in a second. But I just, I want to underline just so I understand, in the rest of the year on that week three. So the anticipation that that's week three, you're doing kind of baptism Sunday every month during the year, except for in these two big months of the year. That' that's what's happening there. And again, not necessarily every campus, every service, but that's kind of the kind of cadence is pushing towards that.

John Sel (27:26)

Yeah. And every campus, every service is offering it. It's just a matter of how many people sign up for that that month. So the expectation is man, Lord willing, if God moves. We've prepared the way and we're ready if someone in every, you know, who attends every service, every location is ready to take that step.

Rich (27:43)

I love that. That's so good. And the, the. Do you. Are they doing like a story? Do they give a little bit of their testimony? Does how does that work? I've seen what you're talking about with like, during the worship experience. I get that. But is there some part of it where we get to hear from them or no? So obviously the baptism team hears from.

John Sel (28:00)

Them the way we're currently doing it. We do not hear their story. So we don't. There was a time. It's funny how those iterations have happened. When I first came to Our church, we had every person who was going to be baptized film a video with their story that would play. And then we've reached times where they would share, you know, in the moment. Then there was times where the pastor. Pastor would share what we're currently doing. And I'm not saying this. This may not change is what we're currently doing is they share the story with the baptism team, sometimes with the. The location pastor. And in that moment, we're letting them know in the welcome moment what's about to happen. And, you know, we may share some specifics there. Like we had some. Some middle school girls, and it was almost their entire small group was being baptized on the same day. So in the welcome, we said, what you're going to see is these are. These are middle school girls that have been taking steps of faith and bringing their friends, and they're about to get baptized. But in the moment, it's during worship, people are celebrating, but we're not stopping to share every single story. And in fact, kind of back to the barriers. That's been one of the barriers that we've been. We've encountered where people aren't ready to take the step of baptism because they're afraid they're going to be put on the spot to talk in front of hundreds of people or something like that. So. But that's currently how we're doing it.

Rich (29:17)

Yeah. Okay. And then let's talk about these two times a year, the week after Easter and October. I get a sense of why you would do those. Then what are you doing differently to kind of prepare people to move towards that. Obviously, you know, apart, you know, you know, I got to be careful and all this stuff. I know that, like the Lord is moving. I understand that. I get sure there's a part of this we can't. We're not manufacturing. I get that. But there must be some communication process we're doing to kind of give people a heads up, talk us through what that looks like leading up to those kind of big baptism day days. Yeah.

John Sel (29:44)

For the, for the one after Easter, there's not a lot in regard to communication to people who would be taking the step. It's more behind the curtain preparation for our teams, obviously, the baptism team, the weekend experience and next steps. Teams like, they're preparing for, you know, what could be 10, 20, 30, or even over 100, depending on the size of the location. And so they're making sure they have enough. We do baptism shirts in all the different sizes on those days. We'll even have have all kinds of shorts available for people, towels, all those kind of things. They've got the whole system planned. But as far as that person who's new to our church and the anticipation is they came on Easter and the step at Easter is join us next week. It's a big weekend and we are following up that week from every new person from Easter and probably the six weeks before Easter, just encouraging them to be there on that day with their family. Families. And so a lot of it's more behind the curtain in that sense. So it feels like though, like it does feel like I get the question all the time, especially the last two years from our church members of like man, did you have all those people pre planned and ready to go? And, and I'm like no. Like on the day it literally feels like you've created the altar and you're praying lord, let your fire fall. Like you we, we don't. It's a step of faith but God's been faithful to do it it with the one in the fall. So the one we do in October. We, we do kind of our play like we would any bigger reaching event like, like an Easter as far as invite cards, marketing, social media, all that kind of stuff. And the idea is bring somebody with you. This is a reaching event in our community and we're going to share the gospel. And it's the same kind of play as far as obviously it takes a lot more to. To lift off. So it's an all call for our staff. We bring a lot of our baptism resources to the park. It's a pretty intense week before and obviously months of planning, kind of getting ready for it. But we kind of run a play as a breaching event for that.

Rich (31:45)

Yeah, that's cool. And is the size of that event like a couple thousand people. You know how big can that thing get before you're going to have to find somewhere different?

John Sel (31:55)

Yeah, that's what we're, that's what we're at right now. You're exactly hitting it. Yeah, I mean it's. We're taking over a city park and it's hard to count count. Right. I mean we take over a community building to do our journey kids experience that day and then pack out that building. But as far, I mean it's just a sea of people. Like it's thousands and thousands of people. So I think we'll be there soon. So that's obvious. One of those things where we keep evaluating like when's the time that we may not be able to do this anymore. Should we continue to do it? Are there larger venues? But for now, that's kind of how we're looking at it.

Rich (32:29)

Yeah, I was talking to a church couple a couple weeks ago, maybe a month ago now, and they do a similar once a year, and they're like, we're in the biggest venue that there is. They like, they're like, we're not sure where to go. And so I said to them, I was like, well, you got to find a bigger venue. Like, you know, like, I don't know, or move it to a different time of year where you can get outside or, you know, whatever. Obviously, that's a nice time of year. I have some friends who live in central Florida. That's a nice time of year. People. It's like the opposite of up north. Up north, they're like, like going indoors at that time of year. But there it's. Everybody's coming outside. You know, the, the. The might be reverse logic if you were, you know, in northern part of the country, you know, do something like that in spring because people want to be outside. So. Yeah, that's interesting. Well, there's. Obviously, there's an interesting balance here. How do you think about a bit of a curveball question? How do you think about. And lead. We want to motivate people towards baptism them. We want them to be like, hey, this is a positive step. We want to cast vision towards that, while at the same time, we don't want to pressure them. We don't want them to feel like they're being guilted into it. How do you balance that out? What's that look like? How do we. How do we kind of walk with people through that? I know that's your heart to. To find that balance, but what's that look like for you? How do you think about that Internally?

John Sel (33:43)

Yeah, I think internally we think of it, it was. We want to do all the work to prepare. So we use that kind of language, that idea that when it takes the Holy Spirit of God to move in someone's heart and life, to lead them, to have a desire to take a faith step. So whether it's baptism, whether it's coming to Christ in the first place, and we can't do that. We can't manufacture that. That's. That's the sovereignty of God, we pray for it like crazy, like we bathe it in prayer, but we're going to do all we can that when God does move in someone's heart, that we've made it so clear and We've prepped for them to take that step, that it's as easy as possible. But in our language, as we're walking with those people, if they're not ready, there's always next month. Right? I mean, there's always, you know, if it's not, you're not ready at this big event. And that's a common conversation that we have as team members. Even our serve team, volunteer team that we have with people is, hey, you know, if you're not ready today, don't worry. There's next month, there's the month following. I do try to encourage them to have the conversation, but if the spirit's moving in your life, don't hesitate. Like, don't, don't wait. And so that's kind of how we handle it. Like, I don't think there's any kind of set that strategy or anything like that that we have in place other than that's the vision we cast. That's what we try to encourage our people to have. And so I would say it's pretty common. Like, there's, there's people, when they go through next steps class, they're not ready and it may take six months. Sometimes they'll go through a next steps class. They don't want to do it that month or even the months following. But then one of these big events comes and you see them in the, in the, in the Baptistry. And so, so it kind of works differently for everybody. But yeah, I would encourage, don't put the pressure on, but use the language of man, but when God's leading and be obedient to what he tells you.

Rich (35:21)

Yeah. If you're looking for a practical training on that. Friends that are listening in, I've actually found it. Really. This is going to sound like a bit of an old school thing, but you find a couple videos of Billy Graham doing his crusades years ago, and I felt obviously he was so good at that moment of like not letting people off the hook because the spirit might actually be moving in their life. Life, but also not trying to pressure them. It's not like, hey, we're trying to, we're. I'm trying to humanly coerce you to the front. And obviously it's a, it's a different, it's a different ask. But I, I would. Whoever's doing your teaching or doing that moment, watch a couple Billy Grahams and kind of pick up on your. You'll get a sense of, oh, wow, that's a good, you know, that's a kind of a good way to kind of find that tension in those things. This has been incredible. I know friends that are listening in. John had like a whole other bunch of stuff he wanted to talk about, and I was like, let's talk about this one thing. So maybe we'll have you on again in the future sometime if you're. If you're open to that. But anything else you'd love to say just as we wrap up today's episode, as we close things down?

John Sel (36:19)

Yeah, I think I'm just encouraged, like, to anybody listening, that we're in a unique moment. I know if other churches are like ours, we've had just people showing up. We had the numbers of people that would be like a reaching event, not like an Easter, but like a Christmas, like a big event on just a normal weekend that we did not plan that God is causing questions. There's people coming, asking, you know, I had someone come and say, how do I do that thing that you guys do? And I'm like, what thing are you talking about? He's trying to describe baptism, but he didn't know the word. And he's like, how do I. How do I do this? And so my encouragement is, man, in your community where God's planted you, God is still wanting to use the local church to be the kind of have catalyst to bring life change, transformation in people's lives. And so I would just encourage you to pray through with the giftings. God's given you the resources God's given you. Even in the next two to three months, what might you need to shift? How can you kind of change your language? Even small tweaks to make sure you're speaking whatever sermon series you're doing or whatever passage you're preaching through that you're speaking directly to those people that are asking, man, I want to get back in church, or, man, I want to figure out this whole church thing and make sure my family's coming. There, there. How do you apply those scriptures to their lives and give them a very clear, very specific faith step? One of the things that we did is we weren't ready for it. We had just kind of been through our group's onboarding season and, you know, still assimilating people. And now we've got all these people showing up and we created just. And God led us to create just a new group environment that's literally launching this week. We didn't plan on it. Right.

Rich (37:56)

Yeah.

John Sel (37:57)

And. But it was.

Rich (37:58)

What are you doing? I'd love to hear what's. Because that's funny. We're literally talking about the same thing as our church. What are you guys doing?

John Sel (38:03)

Yeah, so we just doing an eight, like a six. I think it's a six or seven week short term group and it's literally just following, you know, it's not a long commitment. The language we're using is we've been hearing a lot of your questions. Like we've been hearing a lot of you coming and asking, man, what about evil? What about all these things? So we're actually going to address some of those questions in our weekend services and there would be this group environment where you can ask those questions and process with other people for a short term. And so that's what we've done. They're launching this week on every location and there's people signed up for all of them that we didn't have planned. That just, it was like God just kind of laid it in our lap. And so that's my, my challenge to people. Listening is just thinking that way of Lord, your, your spirit is who has to move for people to take those steps. Help me. What can we do as a church to be good shepherds, stewards of that faith step and lead them with little one step at a time.

Rich (38:58)

Yeah. That's so good. Well, John, this has been a great conversation today. Super helpful for people. I really appreciate you taking some time out of your busy schedule to be with us. If we want to send people to somewhere online to track with you, to track with the church, where do we want to send them?

John Sel (39:13)

Probably our Instagram page. It's Journey connect, our websites journeyconnect.org and so those would be the two spots.

Rich (39:21)

Great. Thanks so much, John. I appreciate you being here today.

John Sel (39:24)

Thank you for having me.

Unseminary Host (39:25)

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of the Unseminary podcast. If you found today's conversation helpful, I'd share it with a friend. In ministry, it's a simple way to spark new ideas and grow together. Also, don't Forget to visit unseminary.com to sign up for our email list. You'll get exclusive resources and practical tools delivered straight to your inbox to help you lead your church more effectively. Most importantly, take what you learned today and put it into action this week. Ministry impact starts with small, intentional steps. See you next time.