A (3:01)

Love it. Well, Palmetto Point is one of the fastest growing churches in the country. Now, multiple locations, which is we see that 73% of churches over 2000 have multiple locations. For leaders that don't know the story, kind of give me the story of your church. Tell me a little bit of what's going on. If I were to arrive this weekend, what would that look like?

C (3:18)

Yeah, wild, wild story. 18 years. We just celebrated 18 years. Three years to ever break a 100. Five years before I was ever getting a paycheck from the church. Six years before we ever had our own facility. Seven years before I ever had another staff member with me. Right before COVID hit, we were doing four services and then obviously coverage coveted. Shut everything down. And last year, God's favor has just been, you know, upon this church the last few years. Last year, we grew about 31% last year as wild.

A (3:49)

Wow. Wow. And what does attendance look like now on the weekends at your church?

C (3:52)

With 2500 last Sunday. Um, and that's. We. We had about. Of that 2500, probably 2100 was here at our. Our main location here in Myrtle Beach.

A (4:03)

That's incredible. Well, I. I appreciate that you paste out the timeline there, because I think there's a lot of church leaders who are. Or church planters who are in these early days, and it feels like. And the early days could be half a decade, you know, could be a long time. Take us back. When you think kind of the mindset of that.

C (4:22)

When you.

A (4:22)

What, what. What was that experience like? How did you keep going, Talk us through. What did that look like?

C (4:27)

Yeah. Early on. You know, I talked at a conference last weekend about your why. Knowing why you're in this to begin with, knowing why you started and never forgetting the thing that actually put you in ministry to begin with. You know that moment God called you, that moment that he asked you to do something great for him. And in those moments or those seasons early on, specifically when you were ready to throw in the towel and ready to quit, you always had to be reminded of, okay, God, why am I doing this? What is it that you put inside of me that pushed me to want to do something great for your kingdom? It was never about a paycheck it was never about being on a amazing podcast like this. It was never about speaking at conferences. It was all always about reaching people with the message of Jesus Christ and doing our best to get that out there. And so in moments where you wanted to throw in the towel and you wanted to quit, you always go back to those seasons of, okay, God, why did you call me into this to begin with?

A (5:20)

And what. What. When you answer that question in your own life, where does that, you know, kind of when you think about the why, what is that? What's the kind of image that comes to mind or language that you wrap around for. For you?

C (5:31)

I'm very visual. So I think of standing before the throne of God one day and him saying, well done, my good and faithful servant. And I'm so. It's going to be such a beautiful moment, but it also. Also motivates me because I think in that moment, that I'm going to go in there almost nervous of the time that I wasted or the time that I gave up or the time that I. And I'm so. I'm so motivated by that moment that I just want to stand there and have him look at me with a big smile on his face and say, you did it. You did everything that I put before you to do. You did it. Good job, servant.

A (6:05)

That's so good. Well, early on, if we could talk for real here, like, church planting, man, it's. It's tough. It's tough.

C (6:12)

Hardest thing ever.

A (6:14)

Yeah. Those early years, it's like, I don't know, it's like you're not rolling in cash. You don't have the resources, you don't have the people, man.

C (6:22)

How.

A (6:23)

How did that go for you, the kind of scarcity? How did that shape the way you lead, innovate, Talk us through that piece of the puzzle.

C (6:29)

Yeah. Lack of money, lack of volunteers, lack of influence in the community. You know, it feels like, you know, the word attached to church planting so often is lack. I don't have enough. And that mindset inside of church planners, or it's. It's going to be the thing that either crushes them or is going to cause them to innovate. For us, we just decided it was going to be the thing that pushed us or that drove us. And so the scarcity mindset that you spoke about at, you know, the beginning of ministry was some. Some things that were birthed inside of us that created some stewardship principles that we still follow today at our church. You know, we're very much penny Pinchers. We're going to try the best to figure out the best way rather than just throwing money at, you know, I got buddies that, you know, with the best of intentions, they just think that they can, you know, throw money at situations or at problems and it's going to fix everything. And our mindset is just, we're just going to be innovative. We're going to try to figure this out and do it the best way we can without expecting that money's going to fix everything or that volunteers are going to fix everything or that influence is going to fix everything. So even at the start, all of that lack created or birthed something in us that has followed with us for the last 18 years.

A (7:45)

Yeah, I'd love to talk a bit, a bit more about that. Well, first of all, I think it's good that you're underlining mindset. I know for me as a leader, it took me way too long to figure out that, like, kind of my approach, you know, I'm not like, you know, name it and claim it kind of person. I don't think I can, like, you know, I can't just, like, make stuff up. But what I do know is, is if I don't have the faith for it, if I don't believe that God's going to do something, then it doesn't happen. And so I'm not sure how that happens. There's like a weird connection there between what I believe about faith and like. And I probably. Some people are like, man, this guy's got bad theology. But talk us through that mindset and how maybe give us a couple examples of how that has impacted you even today.

C (8:30)

Yeah, so. So I agree completely. The, you know, concept of name it and claim it versus you got to have faith and where is that balance? And I'm unsure as well. Probably got bad theology as well. But. But I definitely think that, you know, especially early on, like, it was God. I see big things in our future, and I'm not sure how to get to big things, but I know I can't settle with these things that we have now. So I have to press forward to make the things that we have in our hand now. I have to be a good steward of what you've given me. You know, he is faithful with little. You're going to reward us with much. So God, I've got to faithful with what you put in my hands now, and I'm going to do the absolute best with this that I have in my hand now. But I'm going to do everything I can to make this thing better because I see bigger, because I see greater in front of us. And so I'm not going to just stop here and say, well, this is all that I have. This is, this is all that I'm ever going to be. I'm going to do more for you with what you placed in my hands. I'm going to be that servant that whenever you walk away from me, you gave me two talents. I'm going to do my best to turn it into four.

A (9:31)

Yeah, that's, yeah, that's amazing. That's, that's so good. I love. You know, we want to be multipliers of what, you know, what's given. And I think the, the financial stewardship thing makes sense. I think that's understandable. You can see where, man, we got to be good. We got to use the resources we have. What about on the people side? When you think about kind of being good stewards of your people, maybe developing leaders, that sort of thing, how does that work? What practice have you helped? Has. Have you kind of, I kind of kept this mindset of innovation, kind of getting the most out of our people, that sort of thing. How has that impacted what you do even today?

C (10:04)

Yeah, so I grew up in a very small church, you know, maybe, maybe 70, 80 people, maybe on, on big Sundays. We had, you know, 120 on Easter or something of that nature. And I saw leaders being thrown into situations, not trained well, not knowing church culture, not knowing what expectations were, not knowing the pastor's heart. I, I saw all of that growing up. And you know, those leaders that were thrown in oftentimes would find themselves burn out by focusing on things that they really had no passion for. And the, the pastor maybe didn't know what the thing inside of them that was the thing that really, you know, would drive them. And so we just decided whenever, you know, probably 10 or 12 years ago, we just decided we were going to create a process of knowing our, and our leaders, knowing me well. And so we go through a, you know, I tell them all the time, we do a 12 week course. It's not really, we call it leadership development, but it's not really leadership development. It's more about, you have to learn this culture, you have to learn my heart and my expectations for you. But I've also got to learn your story and your passion and your vision because I want us to walk away from this 12 weeks together. I want to walk away better prepared for a future together. And so as you're walking this 12 weeks out with me, you're, you know, they're serving everywhere in the church and serving in kids ministry one week and you know, making coffee one week and all of the things. But what we're learning in that season together is expectation. And, and, and you're learning me and I'm learning you, but we're putting expectation on what it takes to be a leader. And so as they finish this 12 week process with me, they then go into this pool of just to even be considered to be a leader in our church. So everybody that's ever been a leader in our church before, they ever get to a leadership role, they're a part of this pool because they've been through this 12 week journey with me and I'm there with these people every step along the way because again, I've seen it done so poorly that I just wanted to make sure that my fingerprint was upon leaders and volunteers in such a way, you know, there's again, go back to a parable of Jesus, you know, the sower and the seed. You know, there's this, there's this principle of where you sow, if you sow in good soil, that it's going to produce a good fruit. And so these people that are, that are have a passion for the kingdom of God and want to do something great for the kingdom of God, those are the people that I want to invest my time, effort and energy into because those are the people that are going to produce the, the largest or most productive harvest.

A (12:50)

Okay, I want to double click on this. There's a bunch there that I want to unpack that, which is fantastic. So how, so how do you identify or how does your team identify people that land in this 12 weeks? And then I love to talk a little bit about, you know, the, actually the mechanics of what's going on in those 12 weeks.

C (13:07)

They have to be recommended by a leader in our church. It's the only way to join the 12 week journey. So a leader in our church sees them, watches them serve or whatever inside of the church and then they recommend them to my assistant and we, we start the journey with them.

A (13:22)

Okay, and those is it like you run it in like a couple of seasons during the year it's a class and like a cohort matter. What's the content? Just give us a, you know.

C (13:32)

Yeah, we do two semesters of it. So twice a year we run it and it is one night a week. We meet at the church, we go through an hour, hour and a half, you know, class Type setting with constant homework through the week. And homework looks as simple as, you know, we read the book Andy Stanley, Next generation Leader. We read through that together. Homework is serving assignments on Sunday. Homework is cleaning the church. You know, little things like that. That just creates this culture, this servanthood inside of them. So once a week we're here at the church learning together, but then through the week, we're constantly connected and you know, again, working, efforting to, to sharpen them through the, through the 12 weeks.

A (14:19)

That's cool. And, you know, you mentioned it multiple times. So you've really kept ownership of this group. They're meeting with you that I want to underline for folks that are listening in, you know, your church, you said it's 2500 people. There's a lot of pastors of a church of 2500 that would say, hey, I don't have time to meet with this, to kind of unpack that a little bit more. I know you mentioned this already, but I want to kind of unpack.

C (14:42)

Why?

A (14:42)

What are you thinking about there? What's the advantage? How far does that scale, you think?

C (14:46)

Yeah, I am a huge advocate of whatever it is that you do, whatever's on your plate. There's some things that you have to do as a pastor or as a leader, and leadership development ought to be something that you have your fingerprint on, whether it's as extension as, as, as much as mine is, or whether it's just, hey, I'm creating class and I'm stepping in every now and then. But somewhere, somehow, you have to be touching your leaders in the church and they have to know your heart. Whenever they go away from this class and they're serving wherever, and maybe even they're on a campus or doing whatever they're doing. When they walk away from me, they know me, they know my heart, they know my, my expectations. And so I don't have to go into, you know, seasons and step into kids ministry and try to put out fires and fix problems because they know me from the start. Before they ever get involved in certain ministries, they already know me and already know my heart. And so it just makes the, the family, community atmosphere of the church healthier because from, from birth, this is from birth. This isn't something that we're trying to teach on the run. This is something we teach from birth to, through the process. And then whenever they launch into whatever ministry they lead or serve in, they already have all the foundational principles, all the pillars are built.

A (16:08)

That's interesting. I love it. That's that's great to learn more about. Talk to me about an expectation that you have of your leaders that might be a little bit different. That might be like, oh, hey, it's, you know, kind of in the secret sauce category that you're like, hey, this is a part of what God's using when, you know, hey, if you're leading here, this is what we want you to be like, or something. Activity or something like that.

C (16:31)

So, so for, for instance, servanthood is something that I'm very passionate about. I. I am a servant. I expect leaders here at this church to be servants. I think Jesus is the greatest leader of all time, and he was a servant leader. It's who he was. It was a part of his, you know, character. And so, so servanthood is something that we, my wife and I, portray to our leadership, and then we give expectation that this is what we expect from leaders inside of our church and throughout every department of our church. I think that is. That is, you know, something as simple as when you see some trash in the parking lot, as you're walking up, you pick it up all the way to. When we're having church events here, my wife and I are the last ones to eat. We're not first in line. We're. We're making sure everybody else is served because we want. We want to make sure that we are servant leaders inside of our. Our team.

A (17:26)

Yeah, that's good. So I'd love to know. You guys have launched multiple locations, obviously multiple services within that. Multiplication is, to me, is an. Is a sign that you're developing leaders. There's something good happening on that front. You can't do that unless you, you know, have multiplied leaders. Talk us through some of the lessons you've learned around multiplication as it relates to leadership development and how that all works together.

C (17:51)

Yeah, I will say that good leaders multiply themselves, but so do bad leaders. And so that's. And so that's. That's true.

A (18:00)

That's.

C (18:01)

That's dangerous as well. And so as. As we multiplied, you know, from multiple services to, you know, multiple campuses and all the things that come with multiplication, as we have walked through the seasons of multiplication, we. We've always identified early the needs that were going to be present and tried our best to make an effort to make them not as painful as they could have been if we wouldn't have identified them. And so something as simple as, you know, whenever we, you know, we were talking about launching multiple services, when we launched into multiple times, we've launched into Multiple services and been able to, you know, through growth, knock out walls and go back to 1, and then we're at 2, and then we're at 3, knock out a wall, back to 1, 2, 3. And then right at Covid, we were doing 4. But the healthiest way that we ever launched a service was we did a 8am and a 10am The 8am was for volunteers only. So it was kids, workers. It was, you know, we did. But we did a full service. We did the band, we did. I did my full sermon. It was volunteers only, but you're welcome to come. But this is strictly, you know, we're focusing on volunteers. But then whenever we launched into two, as that second service filled up, we launched into two. We completely changed service times. What was a 10am Service? Now we went to nine and 11. So then everybody was forced. Instead of saying, oh, well, this is my service time now everybody was forced to choose a different service time. So the 8am people, you know, went to the 9am obviously, and the 10am people had to choose do I want to get up an hour early or do I want to come an hour later? And so it was almost. It was actually a 45 to 65% split whenever we went to the 9 and the 11. So it was the healthiest way we had ever done it. So incredibly beautiful. And so just, you know, if somebody's watching this and they're looking to go to two services, I would suggest have a volunteer service go all in, because that starts training your. Your band to do two services. It starts training your volunteers of what time they'd have to get there. To be able to do multiple things, it kind of creates that buffer of a tension point in the future. And being able to look, look in advance to say, hey, let me. Let me work some of these issues out before we get there.

A (20:17)

Yeah, that's so good. Kind of related to that. I feel like this is the year of, like the three service question. Third service questions. Like, I've had so many people in this last year reach out to me. I've written, I think three or four blog posts, probably 10,000 words on different stuff. I've learned about this because it's like, it just keeps coming up. Like, even today, literally today. I got an email about it this morning, so talk me through what, what you've done at Palmetto Point around identifying when we pull the trigger for more services is that what mix of that is like opportunistic, we're creating new space or it's reactive, like, which how much of it's proactive, reactive? And how do you, you know, your church is growing, you're growing quickly. How do you. How do you keep a far enough ahead? Because you can't just decide, hey, we're going to do new services. You got to do planning to make it all happen. Talk us through, what does that look like? How are you kind of the how. How do we know how to identify when we pull the trigger, that sort of thing. Talk us through what that looks like.

C (21:14)

Reactive is terrible. I've done it twice. Reactive to, oh, no, you know, the parking lot's full. Let's plan a second service. You know, that's terribly difficult. You know, the proactive approach of I see growth. Here goes what, you know, we're already talking about Easter next year. Okay, here goes. How many people are going to show up? How many services do we need for Easter? And then how much did we grow last year for Easter? So if those people come back, what can they expect the next week? And so for me, it becomes opportunistic. Yes, launching multiple services are going to help your church grow. But as you're launching multiple services, the growth versus the attrition, how is this going to wear your team out? Is this going to wear your staff out? Is this going to wear your band out or your kids ministry workers out? And that balance of, okay, at what point do you press forward and what, at what point do you pump the gas or pump the brakes? And so I would just say for us, what we learned through this journey is, you know, we want to make sure that when we launch into another service that there's a core group of people that are going to be a part of that service. I need you to. I need you to say for nine months, you're going to be a part of this service, and this is your thing. And so when we launch into another service, we're going to make sure that this group of people wants to be there and this is their church and their service. And then for us, we're going to make sure that we have a completely different staffed kids ministry, completely different group. So we're not wearing out the already wore out volunteers of kids ministry. And depending on the time slot, we've. We've tried three different time slots for our third service, but depending on the time slot we choose, it potentially may be a completely different band as well. Maybe the same worship leader, but a completely different band, because those are the really the two areas. Kids ministry and band and the staff. Those are the three areas that are really going to wear you out with multiple services.

A (23:07)

Yeah, that's good. That's good. That's some really clear thinking there around that. Really appreciate that. You know, at 31, if you continue to grow, I know you know, this, you know, that's like just less than two and a half years. You'll end up doubling. So you'll be a church 5000 if you continue at this rate and that, that becomes difficult to stay in front of. You know, I've led in churches that are growing at that, that rate and it's, it's hard to keep the skis out in front, you know, keep things moving in the right direction. Let's pivot in a totally different direction. I want to take advantage of the fact that you're a district overseer in your movement. From your perspective, from your vantage point, what are you seeing across the church these days as it comes to growth and, and challenges and kind of what are you learning as you're in that kind of coach seed? I'm taking advantage of the fact that you're coaching other leaders.

C (23:53)

I, I actually love that you asked me this question because I was talking with a guy yesterday and we were talking about how smaller churches, specifically those pastors, are really struggling with grasping what their expectations of congregants are and what the congregants expectations of the church should be. We as small, you know, smaller church pastors specifically, but we expect them to show up and to give and to serve and to connect, but they don't have those same expectations on their life. So 30, 40 years ago, those were the expectations of a church attender. Now they're not. And so we have these unrealistic expectations that are creating frustrations from the pulpit to the pew. And I think it's, it's creating this disconnect or, or honestly, I've seen some pastors even preach, maybe very angry towards their congregation because of the unrealistic expectations placed upon those people. And so I would say maybe just to the smaller church pastor, which again, is 80% of America, you know, those, those guys listening to this, maybe maybe be more understanding of how life has changed in the last 30 or 40 years. I'm not saying lower our standards of righteousness or scriptural truth, but understand that travel ball is a thing, and it's always going to be a thing. And you know, school plays and, you know, families going on vacation, man, we celebrate when families go on vacation. I'm not mad at you for taking a vacation because I want a vacation, you know, so we celebrate when families go on vacation. So just creating realistic expectations for the congregation rather than what the. What the expectations were 30 or 40 years ago.

A (25:47)

That's good. I like that, you know, understanding where people are today and not, you know, not overburdening them with a previous model. I think that's a really good word for sure. How can we think about that same pastor that maybe sees that frustration and takes the, you know, the pastoral word of like, yes, I'm not going to exacerbate my people, but I want to help clearly articulate. I kind of want to point to a brighter future for them. How do I. What would you suggest to them? How do you. How should we do that?

C (26:17)

Well, first off, I would say one of the things that I see giving life to pastors is them connecting with other pastors. I would just encourage a pastor watching this to make sure that he has or she has somebody in their life that's outside of the bubble of their own church, that that may be going through something similar to their. To what they're going through. And. And I just think pastors encouraging pastors. We're on the same team. We're in this together. Pastors encouraging pastors. I love what you do here, where you celebrate ministries and what they're doing. I just see that giving such life to. To other pastors that are discouraged and frustrated and aggravated. So. So I would start there. I would say, man, pastors, find another pastor and speak life into them.

A (27:07)

That's good.

C (27:08)

Maybe, maybe the second thing I would say is, you know, maybe an encouragement to, you know, to pastors who have wanted to try something new and try something different. Maybe just an encouragement to, you know, to. To. To do it, man. Just do it. Just try it. See what happens. Throw spaghetti up against the wall and see what's sticks.

A (27:33)

You get a lot of grace from most. I think most of the people in our churches, we have the negative voice person in our head, the person that doesn't love what we do and is like a complainer or whatever. But that's like a rare minority in most churches. Like, most of the people in the church are cheering for the pastor, cheering for the leaders, and are like, man, I love that guy. I love that girl. And if you were to say, hey, I'd love us to try this thing, it's just a test. Let's see what happens. Most people would be like, let's do it, you know, and. And, you know, that'll be fine. And if it goes bad, then don't take yourself Too serious and say, well, we tried that, that didn't work and that's okay. Yeah, that's good. I love that. That's a good.

C (28:12)

Agree. Agree completely. Agree completely.

A (28:14)

That's great. Well, just as we're kind of landing today's episode, any final words as we think about, for people that are listening in about, you know, what you've learned through the years? I love the mindset with stuff we been talking about and just this whole area of like our, our, you know, our approach to scarcity, how that works. But anything else you'd love us to think about today as we're heading up?

C (28:32)

Yeah, maybe, maybe just to, to the guys that are feeling. Guys and gals that are feeling stuck, you know, maybe maybe short on everything. Lack is a big thing. Here goes. Here would be my encouragement. Make every Sunday amazing, the best you can, but pick one day and throw all of your energy towards that one day. Maybe it's Christmas Eve service coming up or maybe it's an Easter service or Mother's Day or, you know, a manufactured big day, you know, back to church Sunday or something of that nature. Pick a day and throw all of your energy towards that one day. Pick a person and start investing in a person. You may not be able to do a leadership development process, but pick a person and start investing your life into that person. Pick one event in the community and just show up for it. Just, you know, wear a church shirt and show up for the event and shake hands and hug necks and tell everybody, hey, you know, pick one area of ministry and you know, go, go to your kids ministry and say, how can I make this better? You don't have to fix it all right now. You don't have to, you don't have to be great at everything right now. You don't have to have the most amazing, you know, Mother's Day yet. But man, you can find one thing and just start focusing on something. And I think this is where that mindset of there, there's more out there. I'm going to focus on something and make this one thing that God has put in my hand and I'm going to make this thing better.

A (29:55)

Dude, that is such good advice. You know, don't drown in the all the things you wish you could do. Pick one thing and just do it. I love that. I think one friend of mine was a church planner and it was like, I think it was either the first or second Easter they did. They went all in on the like Easter egg drop, which I know lots of people have Done. But it was a smash success for them. They, you know, it was like five times. Their normal attendance is fantastic. The local news showed up. It was. And it gave, man. It breathed energy into the church for months. Like they lived off of that because it was like, hey, that was a win. Yeah, that's, that's so good. Well, this has been a great conversation today. I love talking to church planners. I, you know, I was recently with a leader of a church. We were walking around his facility and their buildings, about 250,000 square feet, giant building. And he was talking about himself as a church planter. He was like, you know, referring to that. And I joked with him, I said, well, at what point do you stop being a church planner? Like when you, you know, when you, you just are doing a twenty million dollar building or whatever. I think, you know, somewhere along the line. But he's like, no, once a church planner, always a church planner. We're always, you know, the same thing. So I really appreciate a similar conversation today. Jamie, if people want to track with you or track with the church, where do we want to send them?

C (31:13)

Online? Yeah. Palmetto pointchurch.com it's all over social media. Pastor Jamie B. All of, all of the social media handles are that love to connect with them. Palmetto.church.com I'd love to connect.

A (31:26)

That's great. Thanks so much, Jamie. Really appreciate you being here today, sir.

C (31:28)

Thank you so much for the opportunity.

B (31:30)

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of the Unseminary podcast. If you found today's conversation helpful, I'd share it with a friend in ministry. It's a simple way to spark new ideas and grow together. Also, don't Forget to visit unseminary.com to sign up for our email list. You'll get exclusive resources and practical tools delivered straight to your inbox to help you lead your church more effectively. Most importantly, take what you learned today and put it into action this week. Ministry impact starts with small, intentional steps. See you next time.