Scott Landry (3:41)

Yeah, it's honestly somewhat of an autobiography, but it's also a personal therapy session that's on paper. It's a little bit of biblical perspective in light of those things and then I think hopefully pointing people who might read it to some level of personal insight or maybe personal application to both, both my story and also more importantly the scriptural kind of, you know, underlying in all of it. So yeah, it's not a self help book but it, I think it's a self reflective book and it's kind of hoping that people. Yeah. Hoping that people might see their story in the midst of mine and what are the things that connect or are kind of similar threads through everybody's story. And it was, it was the cheapest version of therapy I could come up with really. It was a lot of just kind of looking at my life and trying to make sense of it and trying to find, find words for feelings I didn't even know I felt and. Yeah. And so just kind of putting it all out there for myself and also for my kids and then, you know, the you and the three other people that might read it.

Rich (5:00)

So it's good and that's not true. A lot more people that have read it. The. At the core of this book and we'll get into this friends, but at the core of this book, I would say it's a High level of transparency like you are. You know, you let people in on, hey, here's some stuff that I've been wrestling with, you know, over these years, and I think most pastors think they should be transparent. That always hasn't been the case. I've been in ministry long enough that there was a time where I think people actually wanted religious leaders who seemed perfect and were like, they're these. Like, they've got their whole life together. That's not the case anymore. People are looking for. And I think leaders want to be transparent. We want. We want to kind of be honest with people, but the stakes sometimes feel higher for some reason. So what kind of led you to the place where you're like, hey, I want to be vulnerable in a way, in written form with your people, with the community around you?

Scott Landry (5:53)

Yeah, that's a great question. Honestly, I think it was the fact that I hadn't been authentic and vulnerable for too long and then lost everything because of it, obviously. I write in the book about my journey. I was a pastor for 10 years. I had a seminary degree and didn't have an unseminary one, but I had. And I had. I had the degree on the wall, and I had the real one.

Rich (6:18)

The real one there.

Scott Landry (6:18)

The real one. Yeah. And. But I had all of that. I had 10 years of experience standing on stages and preaching the gospel and sharing who Jesus was, and. But the truth is, I never really bought what I'd been selling, like, in a personal, intimate way. And I wouldn't say I was good at selling it, but I. But certainly, you know, had been doing it long enough and. And in some ways had been successful doing that. Like, good things were happening. Ministry was growing. You know, people were excited. And so then there becomes this, like, oh, well, the lie. It's amazing the lies that we can tell ourselves and the things that we can convince ourselves of. So as a professional Christian for 10 years, you know, talking about all these things, and then my own life being a complete mess. And so as a leader, I'm sure other leaders that are listening to this can relate. Like, I'm a dreamer. I always have been, always will be. But I was living a nightmare, and I had actually become a villain in my own story. And I lost everything. A marriage fell apart. Relationship with my daughter was severed at a very young age. She was four. Ministry was over. Like, it was all done in an instant. And so 10 years of. Of hiding and not being not authentic, just for the people, but to my own self. And so when God Resurrected my life and resurrected ministry, which I never thought was going to happen. I was like, that. That can't ever happen again. And so I wanted to kind of be someone who would lead by going first and saying, you know, and. And so I've been vulnerable and transparent from the pulpit, but this was something else. And I still am not sure why God prompted me to do this, but I would say I never want to go back to hiding. And I think we hide for a lot of reasons. I think there's pastors or leaders listening to this. We hide. Ultimately, I think we can give all the excuses we want, but it's like, who are you going to tell and what are you going to tell them? And the minute you do, it's like, well, then I'm going to be disqualified. I'm going to lose my job. So it's like we kind of do this thing where I think I shared with you before. It's like, I'm going to. We almost force ourselves into a corner and convince ourselves we're going to fake it till we make it. And ultimately what ends up happening is we fake it till we're found out. And. And that's. I mean, we. We've heard so many stories of that. And I was just like, that happened to me, and I would hate for it to happen to anyone else, and I certainly am not going to let it happen to me again.

Rich (9:05)

Yeah, I. Friends, you can see why I've had Scott on today. There's a lot here to. I think, that all of us need to wrestle with. In fact, one of the. When I didn't. I even told you this. This is one of the. The things I was. When I was reading it, I had a mentor, a guy I worked for earlier in my career who, his life is spectacularly failed. He had. Has one of these situations that's just blown up and ministries blown up and all that. And ironically, I find there's multiple things about his leadership that I carry with me. And one of the things that I remember him saying very early on was he was like, there's this interesting dance we do as leaders where we let people in. We know we have to let people into our. Into our story, but we only let them in far enough. We only let them in to something. And you're always going to draw that line somewhere. The question is, where do you draw that line? And, you know, you've chosen to be very open and say, hey, this is. This is my experience. This is who I've been here. And you kind of Cast it in the book. Not kind of. It's literally called the fight. You. You cast it in the book as an internal fight. The stuff beneath the service that shapes ultimately who we become. How do you discern. Where are you drawing that line? How much are we able to. How transparent can we really be?

Scott Landry (10:32)

Yeah, that's a great question. I think for me, it's a few things. I'm not sure who said it, but I've heard it said multiple different ways. But, like, you know, you share your scars, not your wounds. So I've kind of. I think there's a lot of truth to that. So for me, it's like, if I'm still bleeding, that's for therapy. That's for trusted friends. That's for my wife, that's for Jesus. But if it's a wound that has. That is healed and somebody can see their story in it and it's helpful for them, as either they're still bleeding or it could prevent them from getting hurt, then to me, it's worth sharing. I've kind of come to the conclusion in my life, vulnerability isn't weakness, It's actually a gift. There is something to vulnerability in sitting with someone. You and I have done this without microphones in front of us, and we've told things to each other with tears in our eyes, and there's something powerful that happens that is a gift that you give someone, and it's a gift for what you give them and what you share to them, but it's also the gift to them that's like, I could actually do this myself. It's freeing for me to be given this gift, to know it might not be with you, but with someone. I could do that too. And that gift, I don't think we truly understand how freeing and the weight that could be lifted by going first in that way. So for me, I've just decided that's. That's who I'm going to be moving forward so that the book is the fight. And because life is a fight. And to me, vulnerability and authenticity are worth fighting for.

Rich (12:16)

I'd love to dig into some of the. Some of the stuff that you actually talk about in the book. Kind of dig a couple layers deeper. You write about the danger of fighting the wrong battles, that we can find ourselves in conversations that we're. We shouldn't be in, you know, pulling out this. Talk us through that. How does that relate? How have you seen that in your life? And then what is that? How do you lead differently out of that? Because you Know, how do we pick the right battles? Talk me through that.

Scott Landry (12:44)

Yeah, I think it's a personal thing. It certainly applies to leadership as well. On a personal level. I think many times we fight. We fight with the people we're supposed to fight for. I think we fight amongst family members and, and then, you know, times go. Goes by and you're like, was that even worth it? I think so. I think those things happen. It's like, how many fights have you had with your spouse? And it's like, I'm supposed to be fighting with you, not against you. Like, we're supposed to be in this together. And I've seen that happen in leadership, too. It's amazing to me how church people can. Can hurt each other and, and fight with each other and over things like carpet and, and song selections and song volume and, and preaching styles. And so for me, in leadership, it's fighting the wrong battles. I, I talk about it, the David and Eliab thing that, you know, on the, on the battlefield where Goliath is kind of waiting in the wings and is really the main event. And so much could have been so different if David had wasted his time in that argument, and he would have been justified in doing it. I mean, his, his character was being questioned. I mean, that's worth fighting against. And it's like, David's like, I don't get time for this. Right. And I think how many of us as leaders spend so much time in the comment section? We're fighting critics, we're. And we're missing out on the giants, you know, like, that. That in our culture, I think is a huge one for leaders. And it's like, oh, we're so. And I'm. I'm guilty of that. You know, we're the other one I struggle with. I'm sure no one listening to this could, can relate to this, but I, I spent, I spent so much time spending energy on who's left and not who's here or who could be coming. And it's like, and, and you know what? Many times the people who've left, they weren't never really here anyway. Now, that's not to say we haven't done something wrong at times and hurt people, but it's like, man, I've. I've spent so much time trying to convince that one person because I'm like, oh, Jesus would leave the 99 to go after the 1. And I'm like, maybe not that one. No, I'm just kidding. But, but. You know what I mean? But, but we do. And it's, it's tragic how, how distracted we can become and, and we miss out in the fights that matter most because of ones that weren't worth fighting to begin with.

Rich (15:02)

Well, and this, this is why we've seen a lot of pastors make the decision, church leaders make the decision. Like, I just need to step back from social media because it's like, you know, it's like, it's like it's set up for us to pick fights with other church leaders. Like, it's like, you know, that people are out there and there's, and there seems like there are. For whatever reason, there are brothers and sisters in the faith who, who think that it's their job to agitate. Like, that they're like the professional agitators out there. And it's like, so then we're fighting with some other pastor or whatever, but that's not, that's like a total distraction from our mission. Like this. Who that person's going to. Jesus is going to be fine. Like, what about, like you say, the people that aren't here yet? There's a moment in the book where you describe kind of being hitting a rock bottom or hitting an emotional bottom and crying out to God. Would you mind opening up a little bit about that? What did that teach you? You know, what God meets us when, when all our strength runs out?

Scott Landry (16:00)

Yeah, that. I mean, that. I hope that's a powerful moment in the book because it was genuinely the most powerful moment in my life. And this was, this was kind of at the crescendo of my, My breaking point. So after, after, you know, my, My marriage and my, My life specifically falling apart. And I kind of lived in a place of isolation. I was living in, in, in. In the North, Canadian North. And I was, Yeah, I was lost. I was, I was angry. Like, I had so much anger. And it was. So, yeah, I talk about in the book and I was angry and ultimately I was angry at myself, but I was also angry at God and because even after again, making a mess of my own life, he didn't make a mess of my life. Nobody made the mess in my life. I made the mess in my life. But then after that, I was trying to do everything right and I was trying to do the right thing. Do the right thing. And I was like, God, when are you going to start intervening on my behalf? And so, you know, being the, the preacher that I am, I was like, I got all the Bible verses that tell me that you're gonna. Like now is you're gonna do the redemptive thing. You're gonna show up, you're gonna move, you're gonna fix, you're gonna redeem, you're gonna restore, you're gonna repair, you're gonna do all the R words. And. And nothing was happening. Like, it was like.

Rich (17:19)

And.

Scott Landry (17:19)

And it was almost as if I heard. And I literally heard nothing. And I'd like to say I didn't feel anything, but I did. It was just this. This anger that was welling up inside of me like a. Like a pot boiling. And eventually it just. I just became unhinged. Like, I was alone, and I was completely isolated. I was in this, you know, empty house, and I just started crying out, like. And yelling out, and I threw through things. I. I used words I've. I'm ashamed to admit I used. Like. I mean, I was as unhinged as could possibly. I was like. I got. If I saw you face to face, I would give you the. Like, I told him all this stuff, and what I found in that moment was like. And again, I talk about it in the book, but, like, I yelled, God, I don't even believe in you anymore. I'm done. Like, I don't believe. You've promised me that you would never leave me. You would never forsake me, and that's exactly what you've done. I've told people that you would never leave them and forsake them, and yet you've done that to me. You are dead to me. I don't believe in you anymore. And even now, I still feel this. And I'm just talking about it, but this is. And this is. I know some people are gonna roll their eyes at this, but, like, genuinely, when I heard myself say that, I felt this, like, over me, over my house. It was like this eerie, like, pause. And I heard. As if I've ever heard the voice of God, I heard a voice say, well, then, who are you yelling at? And it was like this, like, beautiful. And in that moment, it was like my anger was. It wasn't my degree. It wasn't my Bible. It was. It was. My anger was my evidence that God was present right then and right there. And because my anger was directed at him, and he knew that I was angry with him. And he met me at the place of my anger, and he was waiting. And this is the part that I still. I can't do this. What. What's in my head, into my heart. Justice. But it was. God was saying, I've been waiting for you at this place, your whole life.

Rich (19:32)

Wow.

Scott Landry (19:33)

You. You have been hiding from this anger, from your childhood, from your young adulthood. And I've been waiting for you to meet me here at your anger. And I. I've wanted you to know that I would be here waiting for you. And if you met me on the top of the tallest mountain, and if you look me face to face and if you were to give me the finger, me there waiting, because I am waiting at who you really are, not who you're pretending to be and everyone around you, you've got them fooled and you're used car salesman and you can spin the Bible verses and you can do all that other stuff, but I know who you really are. And I'm waiting for you to finally be honest with yourself about who you really are. And now that you finally are, now we can do something about that together. And that was the moment that God truly revealed himself to me. And that's when I, for the first time in my life, truly discovered who I was. And yeah, that. That's the moment that I hope anybody who ever meets me or talks to me or listens to me or reads and like, that's the part that I long for people to have before it costs them like it cost me.

Rich (20:46)

I just want to say thank you for going there and talking about that, because to me, that. And friends, you should pick up a copy of the book. I'm not trying to sell the book, but you should pick up a copy. And actually it's worth it for this interaction because I think as pastors, people who are in what we do, I think we can put a varnish on all of this. And, and I love that picture of you yelling at God. And then, and then he's like, well, who are you yelling at? Like, what, What's. You know, you don't believe it.

Scott Landry (21:24)

You don't believe in me, but you're yelling at me. Yeah, yeah.

Rich (21:27)

Yes. Like, I think, I think that is such a. I don't know, there's so much there. And I think it's beautiful that you would open up about that and tell. Talk to us here. I feel a little bit bad because I feel like I'm getting eat a mine out like one of the best parts of the book. But that at its core I think would be hard for a lot of leaders to even admit to say, because by this point, friends, again, remember the pre story, you had been a professional Christian for a long time. Like you had built your life around taking money from people and doing this and came to that moment of crisis. So talk to me about the road back from there. So there's obviously, you know, between there and today, you know, something happened. So talk us through kind of what were some of those key steps. We're not going to be able to cover all of it, but some of those key things that, that God used on that journey.

Scott Landry (22:21)

Yeah, well, the immediate one was that I needed to get away. I was living in Yellowknife, Northwest Territories at the time and I needed to get to Ontario because that's where my 4 year old daughter was. And that necessity was kind of the, you know, the spark of, of God beginning a redemptive work in my life. And again, I never thought that I would be back in, you know, ministry in terms of, you know, a job or a career. I, and I wasn't, I had no idea what I was going to do and so I just did what I had to do to survive. And again, God just, it's all this cliches, it's all the songs we sing. It's, you know, he made beauty for ashes. He. He resurrected things I was certain was dead. And so, and there were, he was orchestrating things to, to, you know, provide another way for me to get back into what he called me to do. Which, you know, again, it would take me a long time to get into it, but again, I think it was just, it was, I just took the steps I had to take because I, and, but they were the steps that he was preparing for me to take. You know, and I see that now, but it didn't, it just felt like necessity then, but it was more than necessity. It was, it was intention. So.

Rich (23:41)

Yeah, yeah, I don't, I don't know if I've said this to you, but I, I think, in fact I'm pretty sure I haven't said this. You. One of the, you know, I mentioned and you know, the person I'm talking about whose life fell apart, you know, one of my own reflections on that experience as a leader that was in that person's orbit, pretty close to that orbit in hindsight was we have to do a better, the collective, we have to do a better job on helping people to talk about what's going on on the inside in a way that doesn't just immediately jump to, hey, like, you know, you should not think that thought. Like, you know, we need to be better at that. And you think you've done a gift in this, you know, this, with this book. One of the things you also talked about is this whole Idea that comfort can be the enemy of our calling. And I wish you didn't write about this, but. Because, you know, it's like convenience is. And comfort are organizing principles of culture. Right. That is like our entire culture is based around how do I make myself more comfortable? And. Oh, and it's true. I agree. Like, I'm, you know, I've been on the peloton and I felt discomfortable, and then at the end of that, I'm like, I'm glad I did that. In the middle of it, I was hating it. I get that. Talk us through that. What's that journey been like in this kind of return home? How has that played a, you know, a part of that as a part of the journey?

Scott Landry (25:12)

Yeah, I think. I think what I've learned is pain is always preparation. And, and to me, I use the word always because I. I don't see it never being that. I think there's always something in. In a situation of discomfort or pain that is always preparing you for something that's next for you or something that's next for someone else that's going to require you to be a part of it. So the pain that I go through a lot of times is preparing my son or my daughter. And so it's always preparation for something. And that's what I write about in the book the Story of Joshua. It's the most uncomfortable thought in the world that, you know, before their greatest battle, they. They're circumcised as. As men. And it's like, oh, you know, that's. That's one conversation when the kid's like a couple days old or eight days old, as it was supposed to be. But when you're, you know, 18, 20, that's a whole different conversation. And any guy that's listening right now feels uncomfortable. But that's. But that's the point. God brought them to a place specifically to bring pain into their lives because of the destiny that he had for them. And I think that's just true in life. You know, it's. And, And. And going through those things is crucial. It's always. There's always something next. And I think that's the thing that I. And again, I use the analogy of the fight, and I tried to do that in the book because I, you know, I'm not a fighter in terms of, like, I don't do, you know, mixed martial arts or anything. I love that stuff, and I love watching it. And I love boxing, which. The movie Rocky was part of. The inspiration for the book, or at least the theme of it. And I think when you look at that stuff, what you always see is fighters fight a fight so they can fight another fight. It's like, I want to win this fight because I want to win this fight, but winning this fight sets me up for another fight that has greater reward for me. And so I'm inspired to win this fight because it's going to put me or it's going to allow me to fight on another level and another dimension, I think, you know, in leadership. I think the challenges or the platinum problems, as you call them, you know, I think those are preparation. They're not just to solve and the problem itself to be solved. It's also preparation for a problem that's coming because of getting through this one. And I think when we start to see it that way and we can view the fight as like, I always pray that God will cause the fight to end. Like, God, just. Just stop, like, get me through this fight instead of praying, God, will you help me become the person in the midst of this fight that I need to be for the fight that's coming down the road? It. That perspective, I think changes everything. And if as leaders, we looked at our current challenges and struggles as like, hey, this is just preparation for something bigger, I think we. I think we'd go into it a whole lot differently and I think we would be willing to endure it just in it with a different mindset. And so, yeah, that's. That's what I've. I've come to discover in my own life through this thing.

Rich (28:16)

Like our friend td TD Jake said every level a new devil.

Scott Landry (28:19)

Like, yes.

Rich (28:20)

Like, this idea of like, hey, we're. We're going to get through this, but then that's just going to open up something else that we gotta get through. And I think that's. I think it's a great metaphor and is. I see too many people who are. And it could be, you know, people of my age or whatever. I'm. You know, you reach a certain age with enough zeros on the end, you hit a couple of those zero birthdays, and then you look around at your friends and you're like, the people that I, that don't inspire me are the ones that are hitting the coast mode that are like, hey, I'm gonna try to. I'm gonna try to make life more comfortable. It's the people that are saying, no, let's lean in, let's. What can we do next? What is the thing that God's got for Us. I love that.

Scott Landry (29:00)

Well, I tell people.

Rich (29:01)

Oh, sorry.

Scott Landry (29:01)

I was just gonna say. Well, just to kind of follow up on that, I think, practically. What does that mean? Or what does that look like for us? Like, I, you know, we talk to our staff all the time, or I, you know, constantly tell them it's like, to embrace that means in leadership, you've got to have uncomfortable conversations now because you're going to have them anyway. So comfort tells us, oh, like, if I just let it go, or if I just, like, no, you're, you're just prolonging the inevitable conversation. So have it now, you know, or, or you sit with emotions that you're feeling. You got to sit with them a little longer before you act on them. That's not comfortable. We want to just, you know, so it's that balance, like, it's, it's, you know, even obeying before understanding. Right. Like, like you've got, like, all those lessons and those places of discomfort, I think, are all preparation pieces for the greater thing. So.

Rich (29:52)

Yeah, that's so good. Yeah. And even in the physical world, like, I, I, I was thinking about this when I was on my peloton prepping for this, and I know you have peloton that, like, there was a time when there would be numbers on the screen in front of me, that those numbers felt like death. Like, I'm like, this is not. Like, I can't keep doing this. But then what happens over time is you, your body acclimatizes to that. Right? You become healthier, you get your Cardiovascular system, your VO2 max grows, and then you're able to, to, you know, to carry more. And I think that is true in leadership. I think that's true in our spiritual life. I think there is, like, a, you know, kind of bearing on the weight of it. And. Yeah, I think that's very true. Okay. I'd love to pivot in a totally different direction. So, you know, again, friends, you should pick up a copy of the book, because I think it'll be great and spiritually enriching experience for you. I think this book could be helpful in, like, there's lots of conversations where I'm like, I think, I think this could be one of those books you have on your shelf. And you said, hey, you know what? Why don't you read this book? This might help you think through, you know, might be a real encouragement. So I will, we'll get to where you can get that in a minute. But I want to kind of talk more about kind of the Meta experience of you as a pastor, writing a book, choosing to do that. When you first introduced me to this idea, I still remembered it. You were like, I do not want to write a book. I am writing a book. Like, I, it was like this. I am compelled. It is by obedience that I am. Who knows? I think literally the thing you said to me the first time, and it was through tears, was like, I'm not really even sure why, like I'm doing this thing. Who knows? So talk to me about that obedience. What did that first step look like? Kind of help me understand the process. Talk about that a little bit.

Scott Landry (31:38)

Yeah, it's funny, you did a great version of me there. That's exactly how I said it and that's exactly how I felt. And I honestly, I still feel that way even now that it's out there and in the world. Yeah, it was totally an act of obedience. And so for context, two years ago, my family vacations in Florida. I have no shame. I mooch off my in laws who have a condo there. My wife and I both lived there at one, at one point. So it's kind of like going home. But anyway, long story, I was running on the beach and I just, I felt like the Lord just stopped me. And he gave me two very clear directives for the next chapter of my life. One was about the church and the other was to write a book. And the first one made complete sense to me and the other one still makes absolutely no sense to me. I am not a writer. I'm not an author. I'm not like. And who am I? Like, all this kind of, you know, who am I? Syndrome started kicking in and I was just like, whatever. So I came back two years ago and I got to work on the first one and ignored the second one. And I ignored the second one writing a book for an entire year. And then on my birthday in September, I just, I felt like I was, I was genuinely like, how can I ask God to bless this first thing that he's asked me to do if I'm being disobedient in this other thing that he's asked me to do? And I, I don't understand it. So to me I'm. That justifies why I'm not doing it. And I was like, I've got to be obedient to this whether I understand it or not. And so that's what I did. And so for me, obedience was opening a blank document and just starting. And that's what I did. And it was. And I don't know if you've had this experience, Rich, but it was amazing to me. I've had writer's block for sermons. This poured out of me in a way I. I was not expecting. Like, it was the draft that you read of the book or the first draft of the book was done in a little over three days.

Rich (33:48)

Yeah, that surprised me even, you know, because I remember you were. And that hasn't been my experience with writing. It's been like. I have found it, like, arduous. But I remember you're like, oh, I'm going away. I'm going to do this thing. And then it was like, oh, yeah, I got it done. And I was like, wow. Like, that's. That's. That's incredible. That's amazing. And then obviously, then there's all the editing and you gotta. Actually. Yeah.

Scott Landry (34:10)

Everything after that was way longer than I. Or wanted it to be for sure, and way more than I expected it to be. But I think. I think I needed. To me. To me, it was a piece of. It was a document that was basically like a therapy session that didn't cost me anything other than time that I needed to get a lot of stuff off my chest and off my heart. And it just. I needed to open that document to do it. And I think maybe that is. And it didn't occur to me until just now that that may be the very reason that God wanted me to do it.

Rich (34:43)

Right.

Scott Landry (34:43)

Was to free me of that so I could be released, to do whatever has nothing about to do about the book. It just was his way of getting me to get through it.

Rich (34:53)

Yeah, well. And I remember at one point. Hopefully I'm not outing something. We can cut this, if you don't want me to say this, but I remember at one point you're saying, like, even if I just have it for my daughter, that would be a gift, right? Like, it's like for her at some point to read this would be, you know, a gift. Actually, I know a friend of mine who has literally done that, has written full books and literally got, like. Got them printed and given it just to them for their kids, you know, tens of thousands of words. So, yeah, that's. That's. That's incredible. So, you know, the writing of books in general is. I find the line between writing and thinking is very blurry. Like, it's like. It's like almost in my mind, they. It's kind of the same thing. Like, it's the same activity. There's obviously writing involved, but it's like It's. It costs. It's a. Or it. It drives a lot of reflection, honesty, you know, thinking about all that stuff. Was there anything as you went through this therapy process of writing that actually just surprised you about, like, oh, wow. Like, that was either my reflection on that was different or, you know, we're, you know, like, anything surprised you through the process?

Scott Landry (36:01)

Process, yeah, there was a good question. There was a couple things for sure. One of them was I had to go fact check. It's amazing how your memory can be your greatest enemy. I. I remembered certain things a certain way, and then going back and talking to my mother again. Spoiler alert. I grew up in a single parent household. My mom is my hero, strongest woman ever, anyways. And I write about her and. And my life growing up and what she had to do to get us through. So. So going back and really, as an adult, getting the details of what actually happened and what my perception of what happened, happened, it was. It was. It was much worse than I understood and what she endured and went through. And I gained a level of admiration from my. I thought I admired her, but I gained a level of admiration. Admiration. That is a gift. And every child should have the gift to see their parents the way that I see my mom. She is amazing. So that's one. The other one was there was some things that I learned along the way. I think the first one was that I found was about the resentment that I had towards my father. And. And as I was writing it, God just kind of revealed this to me, that adapting to loss is different than winning a fight. And I had adapted to the pain of what I had lost. And I thought that was the same thing as winning that fight against resentment. And they're not the same thing. And that was a real breakthrough moment for me. I was in a cabin near a ski hill as I was writing that, and it was like some. It was almost like I was watching a movie, watching myself have a moment.

Rich (37:56)

Wow.

Scott Landry (37:57)

And it was just this. This really beautiful moment between God and I, and I was just like, wow, God, thank you for. For showing that to me. And then give me the words to articulate this to my kids. Because you're right. I did, first and foremost, write this for my kids, Emma and Parker. And I wanted them to know, you know, who they come from, what they come from, and hopefully, if I never get the chance to tell them, they've got this to fall back on. And then my wife being my wife was like, well, if you're going to do it for Them, you might as well go all the way. So. So that's, That's. That's what we did.

Rich (38:32)

Wow. Okay. So what did this process teach you as you've now, because you've launched this book, it's out in the world. You've. You can get it on Amazon. You, you know, it's. You've done a series at the church. You've talked about it. You know, you've been public about it. What did the launching of that teach you about your congregation, about your church? What resonated? What. How. How was it helpful? Any conversations that sparked kind of. What was the impact that you've. Now that you've landed this in. In your church?

Scott Landry (39:01)

Oh, I just got emotional there thinking about your question as you're asking it. I think. What I talk about in the book, Rich, is that I am a very insecure person. And as a leader, I'm an insecure leader. And always, you know, that. That dance between, you know, being authentic about who you are at the same time, the insecurity about that. And it's. Lisa, my wife, tells me all the time, if people knew how insecure you are, they. They wouldn't believe it because you don't present that way. But I was very insecure about doing this thing. And the people that I serve and journey together with seeing me in a way that they might change their mind about me. But the people at the bridge, they love me and they are so gracious to me. And what I've discovered is that me being honest about who I am is who they've wanted me to be the whole time. And so everybody that's read the book, I shouldn't say everybody, but I've gotten a lot of feedback from the people at the bridge just thanking me for telling my story and then them saying so much of that I relate to, so much of that I needed right now, telling me things about themselves that I had no idea was happening in their lives. And this has only been out for, like, a month. And so I've just gotten overwhelmed with. With people's responses and. And I think for our church, you know, one of our values is authentic storytelling. And so it just so happens that as a leader, you get to go first. And in order for that value to be more than something that's just plastered on a wall or a website like I had, I didn't know it was going to be in the form of a book. But I do see that people are opening up in ways that, you know, just in the last month to Me and others. So. Yeah, but that, that's the thing that, that I've. I've seen in our church is just that I've been insecure about how I'm seen as a leader and, and they've shown me that. That they love me. And that's the greatest gift, I'm telling you.

Rich (41:38)

Yeah. It's so cool, man. I love that. That's. And thanks for being vulnerable in your sharing there. Like, I think, you know, I think there is. Anyone that's written, has had a book, definitely has those feelings on the inside of, like, oh, man, this was a bad idea. Like, why am I doing this? And, like, I'm, you know, the stuff I've written about is nowhere near as, you know, personal and tender as what you've written. And I can identify exactly with what you're saying there around the, like, what will people think of me? You know, and it's amazing what. So trying to extract a bit of, you know, there might be people that are listening, and I hope there's people that are listening in who would think, like, maybe I should write a book. Or maybe. Maybe they had a similar experience where God told them to write a book and they've been dragging their feet.

Scott Landry (42:23)

Yeah.

Rich (42:23)

Yeah. What would be a couple kind of just practical takeaways, like, maybe things you would say. I wish I would have known this before. Timelines, collaboration, editing, any of that kind of stuff. Yeah.

Scott Landry (42:35)

Well, the first thing I would do is, thankfully, what I did was talk to people who have done it. So you were one of those people. And I was hoping that you were going to convince me not to do it. Thanks for letting me down. But, yeah, just like. And. And, you know, it's like, hey, talk to a few different people and, and. And you know, what their process is and kind of what they did. But the other thing that I learned quickly was everybody that I talked to does it differently. And so it wasn't about figuring out the process, it was about finding my own. And so I kind of leaned on what I know of myself and how I kind of operate. And so that was one, I think the other one was, you know, however much time you think it's going to take, double it and then add some to that. Like, it's way more time than you think it's gonna. Gonna take. I would, you know, what do they say? Like, find people in your life who tell you what you need to know, not what you want to hear. Like, it's like, whoever you're gonna invite into the process. Process with you. Like, you want to collaborate with people who are going to tell you the truth, not that you're profound. It's like, yeah, like I wanted this to be the best that it could be for my kids.

Rich (43:46)

Right.

Scott Landry (43:46)

And that's why I asked, you know, you and a few others. And so. And then I think, you know, the other one is, is really have a clear. At least for me. And I don't know if this is true for you, but it's like, I'm sure it is. Like you know who you're writing to and who you're writing for. And I think that has to be like every time I sat down, like after a coffee and it's like, okay, here we're opening up the laptop again. It was like I pictured Emma, I pictured Parker. This is who I'm writing this for. It's like, who? So whether. If it's a, if it's a book for your church, if it's a book for leaders, you know, whoever that's for is like, have a very clear picture in your mind who your audience is and imagine faces that represent those people. Because I think it to me at least is. It makes it less about the content and it brings the heart into it. And I think that I, I hope that is what engages people more than. Because I'm not a writer. But I hope my heart comes through the words that are on the pages. And I think that's just because I had those two beautiful kids in mind.

Rich (44:48)

Yeah, that's cool. That's a great, that's a great tip. I the that idea of focusing who is the person. And I worked in a church that had a very robust practice, kind of sermon practice process. And that's one of the things, one of the questions we would often ask is like, who are you preaching this to? And I loved because our lead guy, he would get like really specific. It wouldn't be like, it's not like, well, I'm generally thinking 33 year old, you know, guys that are married. He'd be like Scott Landry, you know, like, he would like, it's like pick out a specific person. He said, I'm hoping that that's who I'm thinking about. And that always struck me as like, I think that's a part of what gave him great kind of power in his communication. Because it wasn't this vague idea of like this some general target. It's like, no, I'm talking to this person and I want to, I want to communicate in a way that will move Them. I think that's great when you think about from a book point of view. Well, I want to encourage people to pick up a copy of the book. But before we get there, any kind of last words about any of this that you want to share? You've been so generous with your time today.

Scott Landry (45:52)

No, I appreciate your time. I appreciate you having me on. And if anybody's gotten to the end of this podcast and is even considering, you know, getting a copy of the book, I guess my heart for you would be to discover what I discovered the hard way. But I hope that it doesn't require you to find out. The hard way is that that God truly knows who you truly are. And all he desperately wants is for you to be honest about who he already knows you are. And then he wants to release that person for the purpose that he has for them. And so I pray that it doesn't take whoever you are you losing what I lost to find that. I hope that you will be wiser than I was. Learn, you know, don't learn from your own mistakes. Learn from mine and, and, and, and find yourself because you're going to find God there waiting. And I hope that for you and pray that for you.

Rich (46:48)

That's good. That's great. So we want to send people to Amazon. Is that the best place that they can pick up of this book? Is there anywhere else we want to send them just as we wrap up today's episode?

Scott Landry (47:00)

No, that, yeah, Amazon. The book, the Fight is there. You can also follow me on, on Instagram, you know, keep updates there. Scott M. Landry. Yeah, See pictures of my sneakers. That's about it.

Rich (47:12)

It's great. Thanks so much, Scott. Appreciate you being here.

Scott Landry (47:14)

Thank you, Rick.

Unseminary Host (47:15)

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of the Unseminary podcast. If you found today's conversation help helpful, I'd share it with a friend. In ministry, it's a simple way to spark new ideas and grow together. Also, don't Forget to visit unseminary.com to sign up for our email list. You'll get exclusive resources and practical tools delivered straight to your inbox to help you lead your church more effectively. Most importantly, take what you learned today and put it into action this week. Ministry impact starts with small, intentional steps. See you next time.