← unSeminary Podcast
Loading summary
Transcript91 lines
- [00:01]
A
Hey, podcast friends. Rich Burch here. Quick question. Have you ever found yourself saying, man, I wish they taught this in seminary? Well, guess what? That's kind of the whole vibe around here at Unseminary. And now we're taking it to a brand new level with something we call Unseminary Extra Credit. You can learn more@unseminaryextracredit.com it is a new membership program for leaders like you who want to dig deeper, support the show, and get access to bonus content that that's actually useful in your church leadership journey. You'll help fuel the podcast. Your support of Unseminary Extra Credit literally will help us keep doing this, bringing episodes to you that are helpful. Plus you'll get access to exclusive tools and resources that you won't find anywhere else. It's only $7 a month. Listen, that's less than I don't know what you spend on two fancy coffees or maybe half of a questionable church growth book. Join us today atunseminary extra credit.com that's unseminaryextracredit.com thanks in adv for your support of the podcast. We look forward to giving you those extra resources that are designed around and from these incredible interviews. Thanks so much again. That's unseminary extra credit.com welcome to the.
- [01:12]
B
Unseminary Podcast, the place where church leaders get practical insights, tips and strategies for ministry growth. Today, you're stepping into something bigger than just a conversation. This podcast is part of a bold mission to help 100 churches grow by 1,000 people. Whether you're dreaming of increasing your impact in your community, empowering your team, or reaching more people with the message of Jesus, you're in the right place. We're here to bring you the stuff you wish they taught in seminary. Ideas and tools you can put into action this week to see transformation in your ministry. Let's dive in.
- [01:50]
A
Hey friends. Welcome to the Unseminary Podcast. I am so glad that you have decided to tune in. We've got a real honor to have an incredible guest on today's episode. We've got ten leave Almond with us. He is the President and CEO of Atlanta Mission. Now, if you don't know Atlanta Mission, I don't not sure where you've been. You really should know. This organization was found in 1938 as a soup kitchen to feed men who are displaced by the Great Depression. And they just keep chugging along. They do incredible work. They now serve Metro Atlantis, metro Atlanta's largest homeless population and Bring hope to the face of homelessness, poverty and addiction. Prior to serving at Atlanta Mission, he was in vocational ministry for 20 plus years. The LAP has 12 of those. As we were just saying in the pre call, he felt like he had the best job in the world. Was a lead pastor at Takeda City Church, one of the eight Atlanta city Atlanta area campuses of North Point Ministries. Tinsley, welcome.
- [02:41]
C
So glad you're here, man. So good to be here. Thanks so much for having me. I've been looking forward to this conversation.
- [02:46]
A
No, this is going to be good. I'm excited. Why don't you kind of fill in the picture, Tell us a little bit more of your background and tell us a bit more about Atlanta Mission, that kind of thing. Just help set the table.
- [02:56]
C
Yeah. So I'm a native Atlantan. I grew up here. Born and raised just north of the city. Only child. Child parents still live north of the city in the same town that I grew up in. My wife and I, we have four kids. We have been married now. Just celebrated our 25th wedding anniversary.
- [03:15]
A
Congratulations.
- [03:16]
C
Feel old, but it's, it's, it's all good. So four kids, three boys, little girl. They're all just amazing, doing great things in, in their worlds. We live over in city of Decatur, so for those that don't know, just kind of just a right outside of downtown Atlanta. So we feel like we're living in the heart of the city. Like you said, I spent 20 plus years on the church side of ministry, which if you had told younger me that that was going to be my future, I probably would have laughed at. You grew up in a family. That church just frankly wasn't that important to us. And my mom gets mad if I say I didn't grow up in a Christian home. Which, you know, looking back, I think is really true. I just grew up in a home that we didn't feel like the church was for us. And so after, you know, meeting Jesus in Colle, given my life to him, which is a whole another really cool story started down the, the, the path towards ministry. And eventually several years into that kind of looked up and thought, I don't, I don't know what I'm doing. Like, I'm, I'm working in these churches that I don't even want to attend. Like, I remember this very pivotal meeting in my life where our pastor asked us, he's like, if I didn't pay you to go to church here, is this the church you would attend?
- [04:27]
A
Yes.
- [04:28]
C
And every one of us said no. And they were all okay with it.
- [04:33]
A
Oh, no.
- [04:34]
C
And I just, like, something broke in me. And I remember going home. Oh, no. Told my wife. I was like, I can't do this anymore. And so I started the process of just trying to find a job. But the problem is I've genuinely felt called by God to ministry. So God used that to lead us down the path of starting Decatur City Church. And our whole dream was just to create a church that people who didn't like church would love to attend. And so. Which was really cool. Again, it's probably a whole other episode, but really cool because we got to do, do that in one of the most unchurched cities in Atlanta. 70% of the people who live in Decatur don't go to a church. And Decatur, for those who don't know, small little town right outside of a big city, but literally there's over 600 churches in that town. So we used to say all the time, nobody wakes up on Sunday wondering where a church is. They just wake up wondering if church is for them.
- [05:27]
A
Right, right.
- [05:27]
C
So that's, that's the thing we tried to solve. Right. And so did that for 12 years. Thought I would do that with my whole life. Just an amazing season. And then God called me out of there to Atlanta Mission. And so for those who don't know, and we can get into that story here if you want to, but for those who don't know, Atlanta Mission, like you said, is the largest and longest running provider of services for men, women and children experiencing homelessness in our city. So for perspective, what that means is on any given night, we'll have about 800 men, women or children who are staying with us.
- [06:01]
A
Wow. Yeah, that's a significant operation. That's.
- [06:04]
C
It's a significant operation. It represents that in our city. That represents about 35 to 40% of all the shelter beds in Atlanta. So. Wow. It's a, it's pretty remarkable opportunity that we do that across three campuses in downtown Atlanta. One for men, two for women and children. And then we have this really cool drug and alcohol addiction facility out near Athens, which is about an hour outside of town on a 550 acre farm that is, wow, beautiful for men who are in recovery from addiction. So.
- [06:36]
A
Yeah, yeah, that's. That's incredible. I'm glad you started with the kind of community size that you're, you're serving. That's. That's amazing. Give me a sense of the operation from like, you know, total number of staff, other kind of metrics. Again, I'm Just trying to, I know, you know, you're not a kind of person that's going to brag about that kind of stuff, but just trying to help people kind of place because this is a significant operation, friends. Like Atlanta Mission is. It's a world class organization doing great work and honored to have you on the show. But people might not be kind of aware of the scale of it. Give us a bit more sense of that.
- [07:10]
C
Yeah, no, it's a good question. I appreciate you asking because. Yeah, I definitely don't, I don't, I don't like going there, but yes, well.
- [07:17]
A
And it's even just. It's a funny thing. It's a funny thing to even like. It's like, well, we're really good. It's like, it's like, well, yeah, it's a tough thing you're doing. So it's like, man, it's a weird thing to kind of try to get your arms around. How do we talk about this?
- [07:29]
C
Yeah, yeah. So let me kind of give you scope and then let me talk a little bit about what we're doing. So scope is we're, we're about a $20 million a year organization. And so just like every church out there, that means, you know, we start July is the start of our fiscal year and we start at zero. And then we go and raise $20 million to meet the need of our expenses. And, and we do that through mainly private and corporate donations. And so we're almost 100% privately funded. We, we took our very first government grant, but I mean it's a $250,000 grant, which is not insignificant, but on the scope of 20 million. So that kind of gives everybody an idea. So you're talking about, you know, thousands of donors who come alongside of us to partner with us, which is just amazing. We serve about 800 men, women and children, like I said. And we have right at about 180 staff who are, who are either, you know, full time equivalents basically here with us. And that's across four different campuses. So we're essentially like a multi site operation. So I'm sitting here at my office today, which is basically our mission support center. So your accounting, HR development team, all of your infrastructure. And we support the work that's happening all over our city. And then we also have three thrift stores across northeast Georgia that's included headcount. And so a little bit of that 20 million that I was telling you about, that, that revenue comes from sales as well. And so, so yeah, we're it's, it's pretty broad organization. And then what we do, a lot of people think about, you know, Atlanta Mission, especially here in our city, and they just think emergency shelter, right? Certainly what we do. But of those 800 beds, roughly only 40% of those go towards emergency shelter. And so. Oh, really? Okay, yeah. And so if you show up at our door and you just need safety, security, stability, you're just trying to like get off the street. We have a program called Find Hope and it's a 30 day program. You can stay with us rent free. 30 days, you know, bed, meals, showers. Really, really, really, really low expectation on those clients. It's just like, hey, we're here to meet your needs.
- [09:51]
A
That's cool.
- [09:52]
C
The other 60% of our beds go towards what we call our transformational model where we provide complete wraparound services. It's about a year long program. You show up and we're going to try to help you get healthy relationally, physically, emotionally, spiritually, vocationally. We've got counselors, we've got advocates, we've got social workers. You have a whole team that works with you, walks with you for a year, depending on really your core traumas, what's caused your homelessness. And our main goal, our mission, is to transform through Christ the lives of those who are experiencing homelessness, poverty and addiction. And so what we want to do, what that means to us is over the course of that year, we want to give you the tools to identify your traumas, understand those traumas, and ultimately break the cycles so that you don't ever have to come back to our doors again. We tell our clients we love you, but we don't ever want to see you again. This is just like, yes, this is.
- [10:52]
A
A phase of your life, hopefully, right? Like, that's the goal.
- [10:54]
C
We end that for you. And so our program goes through all the counseling, all the services, and it wraps up in a vocational training program, we call it Steps. That gives our clients the soft skills they need to, to not just get a job. Because here's, here's what's really cool. You, you would get this. Our clients are really good at getting jobs, but like so many people out there were terrible at keeping a job. Like, people don't know the skills needed to like keep a job. Like, how do you manage conflict? What do you do with that boss who's just overbearing? How do you have normal workplace conversations? And so yes, we have a four week training program that gives our clients those skills. And what we're finding is that for the clients who go all the way through our program, 70% of those who graduate our program, they still have a house or a living situation a year later, and they are maintaining that job a year later.
- [11:46]
A
Wow, that's incredible.
- [11:47]
C
It's just been a remarkable, remarkable journey. And so we've got some transitional housing in there where you graduate our program, you stay with us, we help you save up, and we help you find an apartment. And then when you're ready financially and you're stable, we help you move into that. That apartment. And what's really cool, probably one of my favorite things is for alumni, is that year after you graduate, you get a retention coach with us, and they walk with you, and they just help you navigate life. Because, man, when you've stayed somewhere for a year and then you kind of come back in and you're like, who? The pressures of the world are on me. That first year is so tough, so hard. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [12:30]
A
Well, that's cool. I appreciate you sharing that. And, yeah, even church leaders that are listening in, man, there, whether. If you're in the Atlanta area, you definitely should reach out to Atlanta Mission. But. But even in your neighborhood, like, there are. This is why you shouldn't be trying to invent this yourself as a church. These are incredibly complex issues that, you know, when I heard all of the different things you're doing to surround people, try to help them, that's inspiring. That's amazing. Well, I'd love to pivot and talk about kind of your experience as you've transitioned in, like some. Try to extract some leadership lessons. It's been said that one of the first things that leaders do is define reality or gain clarity for their. For their, you know, organization. When you first started early on in your role, what were you listening for or look for that told you? Maybe there's some areas here that just aren't very clear. What did you see as you were, you know, we got to bring some more clarity in the organization. Were there things you kind of saw that that made you think, oh, maybe this is some areas we need to gain some better clarity as an organization?
- [13:28]
C
Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think, you know, every leadership transition is different. One of the advantages I had is that what my predecessor was leaving me with was so much different than what he inherited. And so he inherited an organization that was in crisis. He handed me an organization that was thriving, but that organization really was, and he was. And it's all kind of wrapped up in our story, is that it was time for him to Retire. It was time for him to move on. And so the whole organization was asking, what's next? And so that's. That's. One advantage I had, is that there was this collective like, well, like, what are. What is next for us? That was helpful. The other advantage I had, and I did not think this was an advant advantage, but, you know, I. I came out of church ministry. I didn't know how to lead a nonprofit. I didn't know anything about homelessness. I didn't know much about social services. And so, you know, I truly believe God called me into this, but I couldn't come in like an expert. And so I literally was forced to. My. I tell people my door said CEO, but I think I was really the chief question officer. I mean, my. My first year helped me understand was, yeah. Asking questions. I can. I can vividly remember our clinical director coming into my office and saying, hey, we've got this massive clinical decision that we need to make. And there's this and this and this and, you know, and then, like, trying to leave that way. What do you think we should do? And I'm like, you're the clinical director. Like, what do you.
- [15:00]
A
What do you mean?
- [15:01]
C
But that was again. And this is. And he would say this if he was sitting here. My predecessor had an organization that was in crisis, and so. So every decision had to center on him. And I needed to come in and teach our team how to have a decentralized leadership. How, like, hey, look, you're the clinical director. I'm going to support you. I'm going to remove obstacles for you. But if I have to make clinical decisions, we've got a really big problem, because I'm not qualified to make that decision. And so really pushing leadership down, asking a lot of questions, understanding what we do. And so that was. That was a huge advantage that, that I think a lot of people probably, they can like I did. They. They think about the things that are stacked against them. To me, it's like, you don't know anything about the space. That's a big obstacle. Well, maybe lean into those obstacles because it's a really good way to. To get underneath the hood. And so it forced me to ask questions, forced me to listen. And then what I did is I. I truly went on a. Just a listening tour. I set up a meeting, I think, with every employee of our organization.
- [16:05]
A
Wow.
- [16:05]
C
And I asked everybody what's right, what's wrong, what's missing and what's confusing. And I still have that notebook. I mean, my assistant like, cataloged answers for days. And what was so cool to me was that without having the same language, almost everybody in the organization identified the same rights, wrongs, missings, and confusings. And so I was able to then take that and really come back to our senior team and say, hey, like, what should we do about this? Like, we all, we all agree this is a problem. Like, what should we do? And I think a colleague of mine, I remember walking into his office and he had this drawing on his board. I'm like, what is, what is that? He's like, well, this is how I feel about our organization. And I remember it was a, it was a circle and all the arrows were pointed in every direction around the circle. And he's like, that's us. Like, we've got the right idea, but Everybody's pulling in 100 directions to try to figure out how to do that idea. And I said, man, we need to take that circle and get all those arrows on one side because if we can collectively pull. And that just kind of became our quest. And so we took all those answers and, you know, basically the, the big thing was, you know, and I don't know where I learned this, but I feel like when there's clarity in an organization, no is really easy. And yes is, is really difficult. It's like really easy to say no. And what I found at Atlanta Mission was we were just saying yes to everything. And the reason we were saying yes to everything is because there was no strategy, there was no clarity. And so we took that first year and a half, wrote our strategic plan, identified who we want to be and why we want to be that, and then what would it look like to be that organization? So we just kind of built it backwards and that's the journey we've been on now for the last four years since I've been here.
- [17:56]
A
Wow, that's. Yeah, that's incredible. I love that, that feeling. In fact, I took over a non profit kids camp and much smaller scale than what you're running. But I remember those early days where people are looking at you and there is this sense of like, okay, so like, you got to tell us where we're going, what is the thing we're doing next. And it's easy to like the easy thing is, let's try this, let's try that, let's do a bunch of different things. And that can lead to that polling those hundred different, you know, it's lots of activity, but it's not focused.
- [18:31]
C
Yeah.
- [18:32]
A
And trying to get everybody on a Kind of a shared page of. Or a shared picture of what the future looks like. Man, that's great. Through this. This process of kind of, we're going to do a strategic plan over a year. What would you. What would you say to a leader that is feeling the pressure of like, hey, I want to define the future now as opposed to. That feels like a step back. We're going to take a year and a half and define this stuff. What would you say to a leader? Why should we slow down? Talk us through why that, how that benefited now that you're on the other side of all that.
- [19:02]
C
Yeah, I think the first thing I would say is it's. It's totally worth it. I mean, it was hard. It was challenging. Does feel like a step back, but I don't know how to step forward without. Without clarity, you know? Right. And that's. You said at the beginning, I got to. I got to be one of the campus pastors at North Point Community Church for years. And I just. I can remember Andy always saying the beauty of North Point wasn't that we got to start with a blank page, just that we started on the same page.
- [19:34]
A
That's good.
- [19:35]
C
And I just think that, like, that. That is always set with me. And so when I. When I started here, I realized, like, hey, I don't. I don't get the luxury of a blank page. I mean, this organization has been around since 1938. You know, when I. When I started Decatur City, it was so easy because I just told everybody what we were doing and why we were doing it, and there was nothing else we were doing. And so it was like. But here it's like, okay, if I can't get to a blank page, the. The best thing I can do is we've got to get on the same page, or else we're just. We're gonna spin our tires. And. And, you know, I think I'll. I'll. This story probably sums it up, and maybe somebody can relate to this. I. I have a monthly breakfast with our board chair and our vice chair. And the very first breakfast I went to in this role, it was my predecessor's last breakfast and my first. And so we're all. So it's him, it's me, and it's a board chair and a vice chair, all of which have been around this organization 3x the amount of time I had at that point, I had been there, like three days, couple weeks, and. And we got this email the night before the breakfast, and it was from a developer and they were offering $14 million for the piece of property that my office sits on, which is a widely underused piece of property that we've always kind of wrestled with. Like, what do we do with this thing?
- [20:58]
A
Right.
- [20:59]
C
$14 million. That's almost our entire year's budget. And I remember showing up to this breakfast with this loi and I asked the question, should we take it or should we not?
- [21:12]
A
Right.
- [21:13]
C
And nobody could answer my question. Wow.
- [21:16]
A
Wow.
- [21:18]
C
Nobody knew if it was a good idea to take $14 million or to walk away from $14 million.
- [21:23]
A
And if that group doesn't know, nobody else in the organization is going to know.
- [21:27]
C
And that's exactly what I said. I was like, if you don't know.
- [21:30]
A
Yeah.
- [21:32]
C
Yes, exactly. Nobody knows.
- [21:34]
A
Yes.
- [21:34]
C
And so I, I started with that small group and I said, hey, would you give me the freedom to take however long it takes for us to make sure we can answer that question? Yeah, that's good. So in our first board meeting, I raised my hand and I just said, hey, guys, I know I'm new, I know I just started, but. And I shared the story and I said, hey, we have to be able to answer questions like this or we're never going to get anywhere. We may do a lot of good things, but we are going to have no idea if we did the best thing.
- [22:06]
A
Right, Right. That's good. That's good. So kind of double clicking on that, continuing to kind of focus in on this. You know, there are churches, organizations that will do the strat plan, or we'll. We go away for the big retreat, we come up with the new value statements. It's got great strategy on paper, but it doesn't end up translating into practice. What are you doing at the mission to try to make sure that we're going from. That wasn't just a great document that's like in a nice book somewhere, but it's actually rolling out. Maybe give us some examples of that. And what are those kind of rhythms, cadences, all that? How are you making that happen?
- [22:38]
C
Yeah, it's. I. I wish I could really tell. You were crushing it in this area.
- [22:43]
A
It's.
- [22:43]
C
This is a new habit for us. And so we're. I'm four years in. We just finished our first full fiscal year under our new strategy. And so I can tell you what we learned. Yeah, good one. Once you get it built, you have to start small.
- [23:01]
A
We.
- [23:02]
C
I wish I could remember the exact number. I think as a senior team, we committed and told our board we were going to do 392 new initiatives or something in year one. You know, this is a seven year plan. We're like, we almost for it and I think we got 100 through of the 392. And we celebrated like crazy at the end of the year because it was like that's a hundred things that were all in alignment that we'd never done before. We learned so much and so start small. The other thing is we built our plan. And I was, I was very intentional about this because of what you just said. I did not want another notebook that was going to sit on my shelf. And so our strategic plan is really a strategic roadmap. And what I have told our board, what I've told our staff is I want an organization that knows how to think. And our plan is really a road map for how we should think. It's not overly prescriptive and necessarily what that means because it's, it's designed to take us all the way through 2030. Well.
- [24:00]
A
Right.
- [24:01]
C
I have no idea what's going to happen between now and 2030. Right. But I do know that if what we said we want to accomplish, we're accomplishing however that looks by 2030 we're on the right track. And so that would be the other thing is just like I would build, I wouldn't make it so prescriptive that it tells you like, hey, next week you're doing this and the week after, it needs to teach the organization how to think, how to act so that the person who's brand new on the front line, if I'm not in the room, they don't need to spend any time going like what, what would Tinsley want me to do? They just, this is who we are as an organization is how we think. And then we at a senior level and then we pushed it all the way down through our organization. We built a meeting cadence around it. And so we have our senior team meets once a week. That's my six direct reports and plus my admin. And we 1. So we do that on Tuesday morning. 1. The first Tuesday of the month is a strategy meeting. We talk all about the strategic plan. That's like, hey, how are, how are you doing in your department doing towards what you said you were going to do? And we have a dashboard to measure that against. And then the next Tuesday is an operations meeting and it's just like, hey, what are, what are we working on? Let's, we can't live at 50,000ft all the time. Let's get down to you Know, a thousand feet or whatever it is. So we have that operations cadence. And then the third meeting is kind of like a catch all, like, hey, what, you know, know what needs to happen. And then our last meeting of the month is a monthly ministry review with the entire. Not just my direct reports, but all the managers that sit under my direct reports and they lead that meeting. I listen in that meeting and I get to hear what's happening at every campus, what's going on, and I get to hear how people are implementing or not implementing the strategy.
- [25:54]
A
Right.
- [25:55]
C
And then the very next meeting, if you're keeping up.
- [25:57]
A
Yeah.
- [25:57]
C
Then our strategy meeting. So then I'm like, hey, tell me.
- [26:01]
A
More about stuff I heard. Yeah, yeah.
- [26:03]
C
Or I didn't hear, like, hey, I thought we were working on this. Why is that not happening? And so we have dashboards, We've never had those before. We have data that we can follow. We have metrics we've identified as a, as a team, our wins. And so it's like, hey, how are we tracking towards those wins? And just have created a layer of accountability that didn't exist probably three years ago.
- [26:25]
A
That's good. Let's talk a little bit more about the data thing. I've. Or data thing. We, I've, I've said with younger leaders, you know, spreadsheets are the language of leadership. Like, you're going to have to get used to this stuff. This is just, this is how we care for people at scale. Is. Is that is what it looks like. So data can either inspire or intimidate. How do you track outcomes? How do you, how do you, how have you seen, you know, data over this last year actually change behavior and move things, improve cares, better outcomes, all that kind of stuff to talk us through what. Because, you know, what we measure can get, can, you know, steers in the wrong direction or steers in the right direction. Help. Help us think through that as we're thinking about what numbers should we pay attention to.
- [27:07]
C
Yeah. So again, when I started, that was a big question I had. So if you were to look at our numbers, you would see that we serve. You know, let's. These are rough, but. Right. At about 3,000 people a year come through our doors. Right. Which is. You're like, man, that's amazing. Well, then as I walk you through that, by the time you get to the end of our vocational training a year later, we may graduate like 400. And then 70% of those 400 are still doing well the next year. And so, you know, on paper, you're like, man, is that good? Like that. There's a lot of attrition there, like, should we fail? And that again, when I started, that was a question nobody could answer for me is, hey, is that good? And so even backing up before we built our strategy, our senior team spent so much time defining our outcomes and we had all of these statements, you know, but it was like, we want somebody to be healthy vocationally. It's like, okay, what does that mean? Crickets in the room.
- [28:13]
A
Yes.
- [28:14]
C
Wait, if you don't know what it means and I don't know what it means, does the person who's leading that program know what it means? Better question, does the person who's receiving our services know if they've actually achieved health in that area? And so we went through, defined all of those terms so that there was a clear outcome to it, so that we could then measure it. And then we built both a one page dashboard that our senior team could look at at a high level. So I could, I can open this dashboard on any Monday morning. It's just in tableau. So nothing super, you know, exciting. And, and I can just see, I can see progression through our program. I can see healthy exits. We've defined what are healthy exits. I can see, you know, are people getting stuck? That was a big thing we were, we were learning is like people are just getting stuck in our program and we're committing to somebody. You're going to be in this phase of the program 30 days. Well then they spend 60 days. And right. What we were finding, we were so this, this probably long winded way of saying this, but what we, we didn't know what was happening or why it was happening and it felt good. But you know, you're like, I don't know. And so what we were finding is, it's like, hey, so that's an example. Like somebody gets stuck in our program, they, we promised them 30, it takes 60. All of a sudden we were able to track that. Hey, there's a certain amount of fallout rate at this stage of the program. Why is that happening? Oh, people are stuck, they've been here too long, we gotta fix that. And so it enabled us to know what needed to be fixed and not.
- [29:45]
A
Yeah, that's good.
- [29:46]
C
Probably the, the best real time example of that is just recently. So I keep telling you, the 70% number of graduates are successful. It's kind of our historical data. Well, this year that number fell for the first time ever. It's gotten better every year. This year it fell and it fell like dramatically. And this is one of those, I don't like to talk about it. Because it doesn't look good. Yes. I mean like it fell down to almost like 45, 50%. Oh, wow.
- [30:11]
A
Almost. Almost inverse. Yeah, yeah, wow.
- [30:14]
C
Exactly. And so at first you're like, our program's no good. We got to rewrite our programs. Well, thankfully we had been tracking all of the kind of whys and we understood what was happening in people's lives. And what we have found out is, no, like the economy shifted. You can't get a job in 30 to 60 days anymore. And so a gate in our, in our program is when you graduate, you have 60 days to get a job. If you don't get a job, you can't move into our transitional housing because if we just allow you to stay, it beds back up and then more people can't get in. Right. Well, our clients then would stop taking our advice and stop waiting for a good job. And at day like 50, they would just go get that job that doesn't pay well. And they knew it wasn't going to be a career builder job. It was just going to keep them sheltered. And so it was our, our like metrics were actually driving a behavior we didn't like. And so we're in the process now of like, hey, we've got to change, change this. The length of time it takes to get a job now takes longer and the job market's more, you know, fierce right now. And so we don't want nothing against these types of jobs. Like, we don't necessarily want our client leaving to go get a job at McDonald's, but for them leaving to go get a job at McDonald's versus not having a place to stay, I'll take the McDonald's job, even though I know I'm only going to be there three months. And so it was throwing off all of our numbers. And it's because we were incorrectly driving a behavior that we don't want to drive. So.
- [31:47]
A
Wow, that's cool. I love, that's a great, very vivid example. And, and there's lots of that in the church world. I know, I know you know that there was a church I was doing some work with last year, large church, 10,000 person church. And they were, we were taught one of the numbers I obsessed with my clients over is documented first time guests, the actual number of people that come every single weekend. And I was convinced that this church was just, was missing a whole bunch of first time guests. And so they were telling me about how great their, their, their assimilation numbers were. They were like, oh, this is so great. And I was like, I just don it. I'm like, because, because if you are not capturing the number of, of documented first time guests then, and you're comparing against half of what you probably actually have coming into your church, then, then every number be below that. All your integration stuff looks twice as good as it actually is.
- [32:36]
C
Like, yeah.
- [32:36]
A
And you know that that happens in lots of places across our numbers. We got to get real clear and benchmark against other people.
- [32:43]
C
Go back. And if I could go back. No, no, it's just like I've often thought, like, what would I, I do different if I was a church leader now and.
- [32:50]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a good question.
- [32:52]
C
Measure so much differently. Yeah, interesting. You know, historically we measure nickels and noses, right? Like how much money is coming in and how many people are sitting in the, in the pews. But it's like, those are important. I would stop measuring them, but I would pay attention to like this. I would try to find a way to measure progression. You know, it's like to your point, how many first time guests are you having? Okay, well then of those first time guests, how many of them are actually moving to your small groups? Of those who moved to your small groups, do any of them ever volunteer, like, and, and really understand the behaviors you want and then measure to those behaviors? And I think especially in a world where just church attendance looks so. Which so much different, we could gauge health of our churches so much more effectively if we want.
- [33:34]
A
So true. I'd love to. I'd love to kind of pivot for a few minutes in a slightly different direction. So we have a lot of church leaders that are listening in and I'd love to understand how Atlanta Mission partners with churches. What does that look like? How do you work together so specifically at Atlanta Mission? And then what would you mission? And then what would you say to churches in general? Hey, what advice would you give now that you're on this side of the equation of actually partnering with an organization like Atlanta Mission? How can you be kind of the best partner? How do we. What are, what are people on your side of the table actually looking for from a church like ours? Because I'm sure there's all kinds of stories of like, yeah, that didn't work. Well, talk us through what that looks like. Partnership specifically, and then kind of in general, how can we be better at that?
- [34:17]
C
Yeah, partnership is one of our pillars of our strategic plan. I think I Think for non profits, especially when you're large and you're self funded, you can. It's easy to get siloed. And we, we fell into that category not just with outside partners that wanted to come in and help us, but also with other service providers across the, you know, continuum of care in our city is. It's just, it's easy to kind of put your head down and do your own thing. And so this is a huge emphasis for us, mainly because it's really woven into the vision of our organization. Our organization is a community that's united to end homelessness one person at a time. Well, I mean, it's like partnership has.
- [34:57]
A
To be baked into it. Yeah, yeah.
- [34:59]
C
So what. Who are we to then go get siloed? Like, that's like, wow, you can't even accomplish what you said you wanted to do. And so, so we. I'll back into this answer by telling you one of the things we've discovered at Atlanta Mission is that this isn't. This, you know, this isn't novel. But, you know, material poverty, we all know, is debilitating. Relational poverty is just as debilitating as material poverty. And what we find with our clients is that almost 100%, obviously are struggling with some version of material poverty, but they are just relationally broken and poor. They are void of healthy relationships. And so this is so much where partnership comes in, because we literally have a metric that we track of how many healthy contacts does a client have in their phone before they graduate our program? And what we were finding is we were their only healthy contact. And it's like, wait, this is not good. And this is such a great place for churches to partner with us because we have so many opportunities that we, we just call. We call them be with opportunities. There's like, there's do for service projects, but there's also be with service projects, and they're just designed for you to establish healthy community with our clients, build relationships, throw a birthday party for somebody, have a Christmas party at one of our shelters. Come, you know, we're moving into the holiday season. You know, come and build gingerbread houses together with our kids who are staying with us and just create an hour in somebody's life. Life that's normal. And I feel like churches are better at this than anybody. Our corporate partners are fantastic at the Do4 projects. They can. They can come in and beautify our campuses and, you know, 30 minutes in a way that none of us can. You know, it's amazing. Home Depot comes in and it's like, we're going to transform your landscape. Great. This is awesome. I love it. But a church can come in and just be authentic and be real and be with our clients. And you would be amazed at how different somebody's life looks after just that hour. And so. And I think that's a huge thing. And then what I would tell churches, I think even as a church leader, I. I probably overlooked how vital we were to nonprofits. You just, you know, you think it's an hour, you know, even the day of. You know, you wake up that morning and you're like, they don't really need me. Like, I don't know. Am I not really gonna make a. Yes, you are.
- [37:36]
A
You are.
- [37:37]
C
You are going to make a huge difference. It is worth the hour. It is worth the drive. And we tell people all the time. And I've seen this in my own life. The thing that happens at Atlanta Mission is there's always two stories of transformation happening. There's the story of transformation that's happening in a client's life. But God transforms my life every day. And it's. That's the part I didn't expect, Rich, is that my life is being changed as much as anybody else's. And so I would. I would tell a church, hey, our clients need you, but you need this as well. Like, God's gonna do something in your life. And then the other is just. I think especially for really big churches, it's easy to think, like, I bet they need my expertise. It's like, actually, that's not like, we need your partnership. You know, we. We know how to do this. Come put wind in our sails. Come just serve. Be a part of what we're doing. Yeah.
- [38:39]
A
It's so good. That's super helpful. Love. Love that. Well, just as we're coming to land, any kind of final words or encouragement you'd say to church leaders that are listening in today, that are wrestling with maybe clarity or wrestling with some of the stuff we've talked about today. This has been really fruitful conversation. Thank you for it. Yeah. I think the.
- [38:58]
C
Probably the biggest thing I would say, and I have to tell myself this all the time. I mean, I'm a entrepreneurial type A. I'm gonna, like, you know, go conquer the world in a day, is that, you know, remind yourself, you know, more than likely, what you can accomplish in 90 days is nowhere near what you think it. It is, you know, but what you can accomplish in a year or two years is probably way more than you ever imagined. You could. So just again, kind of back to the, the strategy thing. It, it takes time. It's messy. You know, you're gonna feel like, is this worth it? It creates conflict on your team. It feels uncomfortable. We were, were, we were joking as a senior team the other day. There was, it was about a year where I just, every Tuesday morning I thought, I want to cancel this meeting because I just didn't enjoy. Like, we were just, we were at conflict because we were hashing out who we are and why we exist and what are we going to do and why are we going to do it. But now it's my favorite hour of the week. Like, I just love it. And so, you know, I would say that, you know, and I, I think, yeah, I don't know that I have anything, you know, that's good. Much more.
- [40:05]
A
Yeah, no, that's good. Well, I really appreciate being on the show today. Where do we want to send people if they want to connect with you or with Atlanta Mission? Where. Where are the best place for us to send people online?
- [40:16]
C
Probably the easiest place is just our website, atlantamission.org you can find everything you want to about us. If you want to know more, you, there's a. You can email infoantamission.org and that actually goes right to my assistant and we'll get you connected to the right person. And you can, you know, next time you're in town, you can partner with us. You can help us be happy to give you a tour, show you what we do.
- [40:35]
A
That's great. Thanks so much, Tinsley. Appreciate you being here today.
- [40:37]
C
Thanks.
- [40:38]
B
Thanks for tuning in to this episode of the Unseminary Podcast. If you found today's conversation helpful, I'd share it with a friend in ministry. It's a simple way to spark new ideas and grow together. Also, don't Forget to visit unseminary.com to sign up for our email list. You'll get exclusive resources and practical tools delivered straight to your inbox to help you lead your church more effectively. Most importantly, take what you learned today and put it into action this week. Ministry impact starts with small, intentional steps. See you next time.