Up and Vanished Weekly: "Corresponding with Killers"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Up and Vanished Weekly
• Host/Author: Tenderfoot TV
• Episode: Corresponding with Killers
• Release Date: July 23, 2025

Overview

In the episode titled "Corresponding with Killers," host Maggie Freeling engages in a profound conversation with Dr. Jeffrey Smalldon, a renowned forensic psychologist with five decades of experience interacting with some of America's most notorious murderers, including Charles Manson, Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy, and Donald Harvey. The discussion delves into the psychological profiles of serial killers, exploring the intricate balance between nature and nurture, and offering insights into their motivations and behaviors.

Introduction to Dr. Jeffrey Smalldon

[01:56] Maggie Freeling:
“This podcast discusses mature and sensitive content, including descriptions of violence that may be triggering for some audiences. Listener discretion is advised. Hey y'all. Welcome to Up and Vanish Weekly. I'm Maggie Freeling. Today we're going to break away from our usual way of doing things because I spoke with a very special guest today and I want to share our whole conversation.”

Maggie introduces Dr. Smalldon, highlighting his extensive background and recent publication:

[05:14] Maggie Freeling:
“Joining me today is Jeffrey Smalldon, a board-certified forensic psychologist who over the course of five decades has interacted with some of the most notorious murderers in American history... He recently published the book Beast Was Not Me: One Forensic Psychologist, Five Decades of Conversations with Killers. I'm super excited that Dr. Jeffrey Smalldon is here today to talk with me about his book and all of the other burning questions that I have to ask you.”

Dr. Smalldon’s Background and Mental Health

Maggie inquires about Dr. Smalldon’s mental well-being given his exposure to heinous crimes:

[05:37] Maggie Freeling:
“How is your mental health?”

[05:37] Dr. Jeffrey Smalldon:
“Good. I'm a decade retired, but obviously my experiences with some of those people you mentioned still very fresh in my mind.”

[05:46] Maggie Freeling:
“How do you compartmentalize that or do you?”

[06:01] Dr. Smalldon:
“I think I became good at doing that early in my career out of necessity... I would come home and talk with my wife about things I did... my work was in analyzing them psychologically. So I tried not to dwell on those things.”

Influence of Dr. Smalldon’s Father

Maggie probes into Dr. Smalldon’s upbringing:

[07:00] Maggie Freeling:
“You grew up as the son of a G man, an FBI agent. What was that like? Did that influence you in any way?”

[07:09] Dr. Smalldon:
“It did. He was an old school G man... My dad never divulged a lot of details about his day-to-day work, but these things were talked about his beat when we moved to Niagara Falls... I grew up thinking about these things that eventually came to the fore in my life when I decided on a career in forensic psychology.”

Understanding the Role of a Forensic Psychologist

Maggie seeks to clarify Dr. Smalldon’s professional responsibilities:

[09:02] Maggie Freeling:
“Can you explain for listeners exactly what a forensic psychologist does, what the work is that you were doing.”

[09:10] Dr. Smalldon:
“My work was almost all at the request of defense attorneys after the suspect had been arrested... My role at that point would be to tell the story to the jury of the defendant's life... to educate the members of the jury about what I had found out... so that they would have information that may or may not, in the end, convince them that a sentence other than death was appropriate for this particular person.”

Common Traits Among Serial Killers

Maggie asks about recurring characteristics in serial killers:

[11:46] Maggie Freeling:
“So what are some of those perhaps commonalities that you've seen in some of these people you've evaluated?”

[11:52] Dr. Smalldon:
“Narcissism is the one that comes first to mind... Very closely related to the narcissism is the radical lack of empathy. I mean, they just don't feel for other people in the way most people do.”

Nature vs. Nurture: The Making of a Killer

The discussion shifts to the debate of genetic predisposition versus environmental factors:

[13:34] Dr. Smalldon:
“There are some people, though it's a very small fraction of mental health professionals who believe that, you know, one day it'll be possible to identify a serial killer gene... I think most people agree that it's a combination of nature and nurture.”

Maggie adds her perspective:

[13:34] Maggie Freeling:
“Like, how you just mentioned with Gacy, like he knew to ask you about you, because that's what humans do. We have care and thoughts and questions about other people.”

Interviewing Serial Killers: Establishing Rapport

Dr. Smalldon shares his unique approach to interviewing killers:

[17:50] Dr. Smalldon:
“One thing about my interviewing style was to establish the sort of conversational mode. I never wanted to create a situation where it seemed I was talking down to the person... I introduced myself as one person coming to another, curious about their life and learning more about their point of view.”

Notable Interactions with Serial Killers

Charles Manson

[18:58] Dr. Smalldon:
“The interaction with Manson was pretty combative at times... he was very much on the attack. He had very, very unhappy with me at one period.”

Ted Bundy

Maggie reflects on Bundy’s impact:

[27:05] Maggie Freeling:
“One of the things you wrote in your book or that you said is that Bundy shaped your perspective on killers.”

[27:12] Dr. Smalldon:
“I wrote Bundy a pretty long letter... A year went by, and one day I received a letter from Ted Bundy himself... He wrote, ‘...I hope the same can be said for you. Travel light. Take care. Watch yourself.’”

John Wayne Gacy

[36:37] Dr. Smalldon:
“I never felt sympathy for Gacy. I mean, he was such an epic liar, epic bullshitter... he was a very unsympathetic, annoying, often boring person.”

Understanding Remorse and Empathy

The conversation explores whether serial killers feel remorse:

[31:34] Dr. Smalldon:
“...Dylan, was asked if he felt any remorse. And he said, ‘Of course I feel remorse. You think I want to be here?’ I mean, who answers a question about remorse by saying, I don't want to be in prison?”

[33:16] Dr. Smalldon:
“When I think about remorse, some of the statements that serial killers like Rivkin have made in prison sound like they might be remorseful, but I don’t think they truly are.”

Motivations Behind Serial Killers’ Actions

Dr. Smalldon discusses the premeditated nature of killings:

[34:28] Dr. Smalldon:
“I think it's usually something thought out ahead of time... He had fantasized these encounters, how he wanted them to occur... they select their victims and commit the crimes based on elaborate fantasies.”

Complexity and Normalcy in Serial Killers

Maggie questions whether these individuals are simply "weirdos" or fundamentally different:

[44:56] Dr. Smalldon:
“They're definitely not normal... serial killers are a pretty small subgroup... What distinguishes them is their ambition. They are after something bigger than just living as low-level criminals.”

Importance of Understanding Serial Killers

Maggie inquires about the societal importance of studying serial killers:

[47:33] Dr. Smalldon:
“I think the more we understand how their minds work, the better able we’ll be to spot them before they commit their crimes... by studying them, we learn things about ourselves too.”

Conclusion and Takeaways

Maggie wraps up the episode by recommending Dr. Smalldon’s book and emphasizing the value of understanding the humanity behind such heinous acts:

[48:32] Maggie Freeling:
“I thoroughly enjoyed the conversation with Dr. Smalldin and reading his book. If you're interested in diving deeper into the topic, I highly recommend Beast Was Not Me: One Forensic Psychologist, Five Decades of Conversations with Killers. It's available at all major book retailers and a free chapter is available on Dr. Smalldon’s website at jefferysmalden.com y'all.”

[49:15] Maggie Freeling:
“Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Up and Vanish Weekly. Be sure to tune in next week as we dig into another new case. Until next time.”

Key Quotes

• Dr. Jeffrey Smalldon on Narcissism:
  “[12:56] … they just don't feel for other people in the way most people do.”

• Dr. Smalldon on Nature and Nurture:
  “[13:47] … it's a combination of nature and nurture.”

• Dr. Smalldon on Ted Bundy’s Letter:
  “[27:12] … ‘Travel light. Take care. Watch yourself.’”

• Dr. Smalldon on Remorse:
  “[31:34] … who answers a question about remorse by saying, I don't want to be in prison?”

• Dr. Smalldon on Serial Killers’ Normalcy:
  “[44:56] … they’re definitely not normal.”

Conclusion

This episode offers a compelling exploration into the minds of some of America's most infamous killers through the expert lens of Dr. Jeffrey Smalldon. By dissecting common traits, motivations, and the delicate balance between inherent dispositions and environmental influences, Maggie Freeling and Dr. Smalldon provide listeners with a nuanced understanding of what drives individuals to commit unimaginable acts. The discussion underscores the importance of psychological insight in both preventing future crimes and comprehending the depths of human behavior.

For more detailed insights and to explore additional cases, be sure to listen to the full episode of Up and Vanished Weekly on your preferred podcast platform.