Investigating Toforest Johnson with Beth Shelburne of Earwitness

Summary

Podcast Summary: Up and Vanished Weekly Episode: Investigating Toforest Johnson with Beth Shelburne of Earwitness
Release Date: February 27, 2025
Host: Maggie Freleng (Tenderfoot TV)

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of Up and Vanished Weekly, host Maggie Freleng delves into the controversial case of Toforest Johnson, a 25-year-old man currently on death row in Alabama for the 1998 shooting of Officer William Bill Hardy. Despite conflicting alibis, Johnson's conviction remains, prompting questions about the integrity of the investigation and the justice system.

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Guest Introduction: Beth Shelburne

Maggie introduces Celicia Stanton, host of the Tenderfoot podcast True Crime, who welcomes investigative journalist Beth Shelburne. Beth is renowned for her in-depth reporting on Alabama's legal system and wrongful convictions. Her podcast, Ear Witness, critically examines Johnson's case, revealing significant flaws in his conviction process.

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Creating Ear Witness

Celicia Stanton [02:00]: "Beth's reporting was instrumental in uncovering the deep flaws in his conviction."

Beth discusses the meticulous process of creating Ear Witness. She emphasizes the exhaustive research undertaken over a year, surpassing the initial three to six-month timeline. This involved:

• Comprehensive File Review: Starting from the initial police report post-Officer Hardy's murder.
• Trial Transcripts: Analyzing every detail of the courtroom proceedings.
• Media Audit: Scrutinizing all media coverage related to the case.

Beth [03:57]: "We ended up with over 80 on the record interviews during that year."

The primary challenge was the passage of time, which led to fading memories and the reluctance of many involved parties to revisit the traumatic event.

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Questioning the Conviction

Celicia Stanton [06:26]: "Was there a moment during your investigation that solidified your belief in his innocence?"

Beth recounts her growing conviction regarding Johnson's innocence, particularly influenced by the original prosecutor, Jeff Wallace, who expressed doubts about the case's credibility. This unprecedented stance in post-conviction scenarios highlighted systemic issues.

Beth [09:06]: "The original prosecutor supports a new trial and has spoken on the record saying that he has doubts about the credibility of this case."

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Alternative Suspects and Missed Leads

The investigation revealed that four individuals were initially arrested, with two charges eventually dropped. Yolanda Chambers, a 15-year-old informant, inconsistently implicated different suspects, including Johnson and others like Omar Berry and Quintess Wilson. Despite specific witness descriptions of a light-colored sedan with a burgundy vinyl top, the police failed to locate the vehicle, indicating possible tunnel vision in the investigation.

Beth [16:20]: "A light copper or gold sedan with a burgundy vinyl top... police never found the car."

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Violet Ellison's Testimony Under Scrutiny

Violet Ellison's pivotal testimony—claiming she overheard Johnson admit to the murder—was critically examined. Beth uncovered significant credibility issues:

• Family Insights: Ellison is estranged from her family, who describe her as untrustworthy and financially motivated.
• Pattern of Testimony: Ellison appeared as a state's witness in multiple cases, often providing unverifiable information.

Beth [19:21]: "She had lied to police in the past, oftentimes to protect her son, who has a long criminal history."

This pattern suggests manipulation and raises doubts about her sole testimonial impact on Johnson's conviction.

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Family Advocacy and Hope

Johnson's family remains steadfast in their belief in his innocence. His children, particularly Muffin and Robbie, are active on social media, advocating for his release and sharing personal narratives that humanize Johnson beyond the courtroom portrayal.

Beth [26:12]: "Their stories have been amplified by celebrities like Kim Kardashian, reaching new audiences and garnering increased support."

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Systemic Issues in the Justice System

Beth highlights broader systemic problems within Alabama's legal framework:

• Over-incarceration: Alabama incarcerates a disproportionate number of individuals for extended periods.
• Adversarial System: Prosecution often prioritizes convictions over truth, leading to wrongful convictions.
• Prison Conditions: The state's prisons are rife with drugs, violence, and lack of rehabilitation, exacerbating recidivism rates.

Beth [38:38]: "We have to rethink what all this is for. Instead of just being comfortable reforming policies that affect people convicted of nonviolent offenses... everyone is worthy of redemption."

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Current Status and Legal Proceedings

Despite mounting evidence and support from the original prosecutor, Johnson remains on death row. The elected District Attorney of Jefferson County has filed for a new trial, supported by Jeff Wallace. However, Alabama's Attorney General opposes this move, arguing that the court has no jurisdiction to overturn the conviction based on the DA's integrity review.

Beth [31:33]: "The Attorney General is arguing that it doesn't count, that it's not evidence, that it's a subjective opinion."

A hearing has been requested but has yet to be scheduled, leaving Johnson's fate in limbo.

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Call to Action

Beth urges listeners to support Greater Birmingham Ministries, the organization leading advocacy efforts for Johnson. She emphasizes the importance of raising awareness and participating in events to push for justice reform and the reopening of Johnson's case.

Beth [35:38]: "Greater Birmingham Ministries... set up a prayer vigil and walk... people really want to do more."

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Conclusion

The episode underscores the urgent need for justice system reform, highlighting how systemic failures can lead to wrongful convictions and perpetuate injustice. Through meticulous investigative reporting, Beth Shelburne's work in Ear Witness sheds light on these deep-rooted issues, advocating for transparency, accountability, and the reevaluation of long-standing legal practices.

Beth [41:46]: "We have a failed enterprise. We need to start over. We've got to reimagine this instead of just expanding it."

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Additional Resources

• Ear Witness Podcast: Deep dive into Toforest Johnson's case.
• Greater Birmingham Ministries: [Website URL]
• Beth Shelburne's Substack: Moth to Flame
• Taforist Johnson's Website: taforistjohnson.com

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Notable Quotes:

• Beth Shelburne [06:26]: "My phone's not ringing."
• Beth Shelburne [09:06]: "The fact that he is speaking out in the way that he is when he doesn't have to, that's really what told me 100% this case is extraordinary."
• Beth Shelburne [38:38]: "We have to rethink what all this is for. Instead of just being comfortable reforming policies that affect people convicted of nonviolent offenses... everyone is worthy of redemption."

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This episode serves as a crucial examination of a potential miscarriage of justice, urging listeners to question, engage, and advocate for a more equitable legal system.

Transcript

[Kyle Tequila]

You're listening to a Tenderfoot TV podcast.

[Celicia Stanton]

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[Kyle Tequila]

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[Celicia Stanton]

Just like that? Yeah.

[Kyle Tequila]

No hassle? None.

[Celicia Stanton]

That is super convenient.

[Kyle Tequila]

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[Celicia Stanton]

For convenience, pickup fees may apply.

[Kyle Tequila]

Here are three things that you need to know about Tenderfoot TV's brand new true crime podcast, Crook County. One, it's about the secret double life of a mafia hitman named Kenny the kid tequila. Two, for over 20 years, Kenny kept this secret from his family and it eventually tore them apart. And three, this is a story, and I know that it's true because I was there. Because Kenny is my father. My name is Kyle Tequila. Welcome to Crook County. Available now. Search Crook county in your favorite podcast app to follow the show. Hey, y'all, it's Maggie. We recently covered the case of 25 year old Taforis Johnson, who was charged with the 1998 shooting of Officer William Bill Hardy. Taforest now sits on death row in an Alabama prison for crime his alibis say he could not have committed. Celicia Stanton, host of the Tenderfoot podcast Truer Crime, recently sat down with journalist Beth Shelburne, who investigated DeForest's case and documented her findings in the podcast Ear Witness, which we mention in our episode. We want to bring you their discussion, hoping it adds some additional insight to DeForest case. So without further ado, here's Celisia.

[Celicia Stanton]

Hi friends. Today I'm bringing you something a little different. A bonus episode featuring a conversation with investigative journalist Beth Shelburne. If you listen to this Week's episode on DeForest Johnson, you already know that Beth's reporting was instrumental in uncovering the deep flaws in his conviction. But beyond that, she's one of the best investigative reporters working today. Beth has spent more than 25 years reporting on injustice in Alabama's legal system, covering everything from wrongful convictions to the horrors of the state's prison system. Her work has appeared in the Daily Beast, the LA Times, and the Bitter Southerner. And in 2023, she created and hosted Ear Witness, a podcast about Tafora's case that was named one of Entertainment Weekly's 30 Best True Crime podcasts of all time. She also writes a substack newsletter called Moth the Flame. Which where she continues to dig into the intersection of justice, injustice and life in Alabama. I was so excited to have the opportunity to chat with Beth and I think you're really going to enjoy hearing from her. We dive deep going behind the scenes of Ear Witness to talk about what it looked like to actually put it all together. We also get into some of the biggest questions still hanging over this case, like who else might have killed Deputy Bill Hardy and what's next in Tafora's fight for freedom. So let's get into it. So I just wanted to jump in by talking a little bit more about the process of creating and making Ear Witness. I felt like from the moment I listened to the first episode, it's such a compelling, well reported series. And you know, that really sticks out. I think there's so much true crime media, but this was just so well done. And I'm just curious if you could walk us through a little bit more about the process of how it came together. Like what are some of the biggest challenges you face while working on it? What kind of surprised you? What's the behind the scenes of that?

[Kyle Tequila]

Yeah. Thank you for the kind words about Ear Witness. Thankfully, I had a fantastic producer named Mara McNamara that worked with me from the very beginning. So once we decided to do the project, we took a solid year to do all of the research interviews, all the reporting that you hear in the series. We thought it would take three to six months and it ended up taking a year. But we started with doing a full examination of everything that is knowable about this case. So we went back to the very beginning. We went through the investigative file starting from like the very first police report that was filed after Deputy Bill Hardy was shot and killed. We read the trial transcripts cover to cover, and we did a full audit of every single media story that had ever been written about this crime, about the trials, everything that happened up until present day. And so we really wanted to reach out to anyone and everyone that would be willing to talk to us. And we ended up with over 80 on the record interviews during that year that we were doing all this reporting. The biggest challenge we faced was time. I mean, this case started in 1995. It's over 25 years old. Many people that were involved have died. They've gotten older, they've retired, they've moved away. Their memories just were not as clear as we would have hoped. And then some people, just because of the stakes in this case, you have a police officer shot and killed. You have a man on Death row. They just didn't want to get involved.

[Celicia Stanton]

So one of the things that I found interesting while listening was just, you're really kind of bringing us into the story, tackling things from so many different angles. And over time, I just found myself feeling like more and more I was convinced that Forres and Andregas had nothing to do with this murder. And really, even just from the very beginning, I feel like having multiple alibi witnesses which placed them at a completely different location was alarming just kind of from the outset. So I'm curious for you, as somebody who was going through that reporting process, was there a moment during your investigation or your reporting that particularly solidified your own belief in his innocence? And did you kind of try to stay sort of mentally objective about it till the completion of the process, or how did you feel?

[Kyle Tequila]

Well, going into the process of making the podcast, I had already been reporting on Tafora's case for over a year, so I didn't go into it, you know, immediately believing that he was innocent. I knew that he said that, that his family said that, that his attorneys believed that, but I wasn't really sure. But once we started really doing a deep dive into this, I think the thing that really stood out to me in this case that's different from other wrongful convictions is the position of the original prosecutor who supports a new trial and has spoken on the record saying that he has doubts about the credibility of this case. And, you know, that never happens post conviction in any case, really, but especially a death penalty case. In the process of doing the podcast, we interviewed Jeff Wallace, the original prosecutor, three different times. And just his openness and his willingness to hear what we were discovering, we were able to develop a relationship with him. And I think the doubt about the witnesses credibility that he expressed and then kind of how that grew throughout the process of what we were bringing to him and telling him, we were learning that, to me, it's so extraordinary. But to be, you know, in a relationship with somebody as they're going through that process was really convincing to me and showed me, you know, the degree to which he and others that were involved in this prosecution really have deep, profound concerns that the wrong person was convicted. And I think that our system is so adversarial and so many prosecutors are only interested in defending convictions. The fact that he is speaking out in the way that he is when he doesn't have to, that's really what told me 100% this case is extraordinary. I mean, I've always based my opinion on this case according to the evidence and you know, what's in the record. I've seen the whole investigative record and there's nothing there. I've taken a position I believe to Forrest Johnson is innocent. But I've also always been open. If somebody can show me evidence that points to him, I will be open to seeing it. If somebody wants to present another theory about what happened, I want to hear about it. But you know, my phone's not ringing.

[Celicia Stanton]

Right to the point of what are these other theories? That was something that I didn't get into on my episode. I'm, you know, there wasn't a ton of deep dive into that on Ear Witness, but I'm just kind of curious. You know, obviously there's this interest in convicting someone. Especially like you said, this is a cop who was murdered who, you know, had close ties to other folks on the force. So this was important to people to find somebody that they could say, you know, this is the person who is responsible. And if it is true, you know, that to Forrest is innocent and he's able to be released from prison one day, that still leaves this open question of who is responsible for this murder. So I'm curious if you know, in your investigation and from your conversations with people if there were other suspects who you felt like could have been violated and if so, like, why do you think that those people were overlooked?

[Kyle Tequila]

There were four people originally arrested and charged with capital murder. Two of them were eventually released and the charges were dropped. When Yolanda Chambers changed her story another time and said these guys didn't do it and one of those men is now dead and the other one we tried very hard to talk to and he wouldn't engage with us, I can't blame him. If I was charged with a murder and the charges got dropped, I wouldn't talk to a reporter about it.

[Celicia Stanton]

Yeah, I don't really go into this on my episode, these other two people who were implicated and then initially charged and then it was dropped. We mostly talk about obviously DeForest and Rodriguez since the trials, their trials actually went through. Can you give a little bit more background on that? Were these folks that Yolanda had also like made a part of her original story? And who are they? Were they at the club that night? What was their story?

[Kyle Tequila]

So yes, they were also implicated by Yolanda Chambers, the 15 year old informant that, you know, changed her story over and over again with police, not in her original story. I mean every time she spoke to police, her story changed. So at one point she implicated Them. Then she said later, no, they didn't do it. She did the same thing with Taforest and Ardregas. You know, she ended up recanting everything, which we cover in the podcast and telling a judge on the stand that she made it all up because of pressure from police. But these other two guys, Omar Berry and Quintess Wilson, they were also young black men that lived in Birmingham. They sort of ran in similar social circles as Taforest and our Dragis, but they weren't like real tight friends. They also went to the same clubs that all these young people went to at the time. And I think had met Yolanda and some of her friends in passing at one of these clubs. The Jaguar was the club that she met Ardregas and Taforost at. And that's not where our Dragis and Taforest were the night of the murder. They were at T's place. But I think she had met at least Quintess Wilson at the Jaguar. Quintess Wilson has since been shot and killed in a drug dealer. And then the other man, Mr. Berry, he lives in Birmingham and, you know, works a regular job and has a regular life. And we really wanted to talk to him about his experience. I actually don't think that he had anything to do with it. I think he was swept up just like DeForest and Rodriguez. But, you know, he didn't want to talk to us and really has sort of just lived a private life since this happened. So I don't think that those two men, there was any more or stronger evidence on them that there was on Taforis and Rodriguez. I think that rather than the right suspects being overlooked, I think it was more like they were just totally missed or ignored by police. I think, like you said, they felt so much pressure to make an arrest in this investigation and to bring it to a conclusion. The lead detective, Tony Richardson, who you hear from a lot in the podcast, told us as much. You know, he said it was a rushed investigation. He regrets feeling all that pressure and moving like a freight train is what he called it. And I think that when you have a very emotional investigation like this was. This was someone they knew that was shot and killed on the job. And when you have all of this pressure coming down from politicians, from the elected shooters, sheriff, from the law enforcement community, it really can be the perfect storm for tunnel vision to develop. And so I think once they had a theory that was provided by Yolanda Chambers, this 15 year old informant, they stuck with it at the expense of every other possible lead and suspect. If you have health insurance, you might be able to see a personal dietitian for $0 out of pocket. Nourish connects you with a dietitian that fits your needs covered by your insurance. Nourish accepts hundreds of insurance plans and 94% of patients pay $0 out of pocket. Meet with your dietitian online and message them anytime through the Nourish app. With hundreds of five star reviews from real patients, you know you're in good hands. Find your [e-mail] that's usenourish.com your data.

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$39.99 for your first year. Visit McAfee.com, cancel anytime terms apply. Kind of going back to these two other men who were originally charged. You said, you know, you don't feel like there was like any stronger evidence to sort of implicate them, but those charges were dropped against them. You want to change her story lots of times, right? To implicate sometimes or Dragus or sometimes implicate DeForest. And then these other two, you think it was just the story that she happened to be on at the time that the charges were filed or it's.

[Kyle Tequila]

Hard to say because there wasn't a very clear explanation in the investigative record on what happened. There were like one or two mentions in the archival media that charges were dropped because the witness recanted. But as far as why that seemed to matter so much to detectives at the time that they would drop the charges but let the charges against Taforest and Ardregas stick? I don't know. It wasn't really reflected in the record what their thinking was. And Tommy Richardson couldn't really say.

[Celicia Stanton]

Wow, that's super interesting. I think another report that stuck out to me in listening to ear witness was that multiple folks had described a light colored sedan that had left the crime scene which didn't actually end up matching our Dragis car, any car that we knew that either of them had. How do you interpret that evidence? Like is there any leads as to whose car that might have been and has that ever been kind of revisited by investigators?

[Kyle Tequila]

I don't think it's been revisited, unfortunately. But I interpret it as maybe the most glaring example of a missed lead that we found in the investigative file. I mean, if you think about it, the description of this vehicle came from two separate witnesses that were in different parts of the hotel. These people didn't even know each other. They both heard gunshots and went to their window and looked out their window from different vantage points and saw this vehicle driving away with the headlights off. And it was such a specific description that they gave a light copper or gold sedan with a burgundy vinyl top. I mean, that is really specific.

[Celicia Stanton]

Right.

[Kyle Tequila]

And police never found the car. Tony Richardson, when he appeared in front of the grand jury, was asked about this description and said he didn't think the car existed. And they went on a wild goose chase looking for that car, and it didn't exist. But the truth is, that is the only consistent description of a getaway car that was given by witnesses. And I think that someone shot Deputy Hardy, got into that sedan with the burgundy vinyl top and got away with murder.

[Celicia Stanton]

Yeah, that's interesting. I didn't know the detail about the burgundy top that's so specific that it feels like that's the one car. There couldn't have been another car that you happened to have seen that. That description.

[Kyle Tequila]

So there were about six vehicles described on the original BOLO that police put out, but they were so generic. They were like, oh, I think I saw a white car drive off, or, you know, I caught the tail lights of a car that looked like it was green. These two men actually saw the car leaving the parking lot, making a turn, and then getting on the highway. So they watched it for a little while. In fact, both of them saw a single person get into the car.

[Celicia Stanton]

Oh, interesting.

[Kyle Tequila]

Yeah. And, you know, I think that's as close as we can get to somebody who actually witnessed the killer leaving.

[Celicia Stanton]

Right, right. And so obviously, a lot of the investigators kind of turning their attention to Rodriguez and DeForest really comes from 15 year old Yolanda Chambers claims that implicated them in this murder. But it would ultimately be the testimony of a different person, a woman named Violet Ellison. That proved really pivotal to Tafores conviction. In particular, Violet had claimed that she had overheard a phone conversation where Taforis was allegedly admitting that he had killed Deputy Bill Hardy. But your reporting uncovered a ton of issues with Violet's credibility. And some of that was things that I wasn't able to get into as much on True Crime. And one particularly shocking detail for me was just what you discovered when you spoke with some of Violet Ellison's family members. Can you share what you uncovered?

[Kyle Tequila]

Yeah. And we, you know, typically, and I say this in the podcast, I don't make it a practice to go investigate private people and, like, you know, put their business out on the street. But this is a death penalty case where the entire case is predicated on this one witness and what she claims she heard, where there's no way to even verify. There's no recording of this call, no way to verify that it even happened. So we did seek out character witnesses, you know, people that know her, people in her community, people who have worked with her, and family members. And it turns out she is estranged from many people in her family, including her grandchildren. And when we tracked them down, they told us separately similar stories and impressions of their grandmother, that she's not a trustworthy person, that she had lied to police in the past, oftentimes to protect her son, who has a long criminal history. But also, they characterized her as somebody who just is a busybody, inserts herself into other people's business, and is someone who is really motivated strictly by money. And in this case, there was a sizable reward, and they think that she was after it. And we know that the state cut her a check for $5,000 after she testified and DeForest was convicted.

[Celicia Stanton]

Yeah. And I definitely recommend anybody who is interested in this case to go listen to ear witness. And I think it's especially compelling to hear directly from, you know, her family members kind of speaking to some of this. And you're really able to deep dive this over the course of an episod. It's definitely worth listening to.

[Kyle Tequila]

And to be clear, we really didn't know what we were gonna get when we started tracking down her family members.

[Celicia Stanton]

Right.

[Kyle Tequila]

We had some inklings with some people that spoke to us just on background, that there was a lot of discord in her family. But we drove to Georgia because we had addresses for her grandchildren and just did, like, a unannounced knock, and they were happy to speak with us. They actually had heard of this case when it got media attention in 2019, when Taforest went back to court and this secret reward payment to Violet Ellison was revealed in court. And so that made the news, and their grandmother's name was in the news, and this was the first that they knew of it, and they were horrified.

[Celicia Stanton]

Yeah. And I think just hearing you literally kind of like, drive up, go knock on the door, it's very shocking just to kind of see, you know, what they were willing to Share. You know, it's not like you had built rapport with these particular people over a period of time. And so I think that's pretty telling as well, that you have them sort of willing to give this information about their family member. But that wasn't the only thing that you reveal on your witness that you had kind of uncovered during your reporting on Violet Ellison. You also discovered that this wasn't the only court case where she claimed to have pivotal information that investigators wanted. Can you kind of speak to that a bit more?

[Kyle Tequila]

Yeah. We were doing searches in Alabama's online court records and happened upon a different way to use this very clunky pull down menu, and found four other criminal cases where Violet Ellison was listed as a state's witness. So there was a paper trail connected to these four cases. She presented herself to police, from what we could tell in records, as someone who had information, and in one of them, she testified. And the wild thing was, this case happened the same year of Taforis Johnson's trial in the same courthouse, but nobody that was representing him knew that the state star witness against him was also testifying in other felony cases that year. This was a robbery that happened across the street from Ms. Ellison's house. She testified and identified a woman who was being charged as one of the people involved and claimed that she could see her from the window of her house. And she identified her in court under oath, saying, I know she was there. It turns out the woman's attorneys were able to convince the jury that there was no way Ms. Ellison could see the people that were committing the robbery because there were trees obstructing the view from the windows of her house. And so the jury ultimately did not believe Violet Ellison in this case. And the woman that was charged in this robbery was acquitted. She was found not guilty. But finding these cases and her name as a state's witness seems to support this notion that her grandchildren told us that there is a pattern of her inserting herself into cases and going to police, they believe, trying to get preferential treatment for her son, who has a long criminal history.

[Celicia Stanton]

Mm. Yeah. And I think it's just kind of hard to believe that anyone would be privy to so much pivotal information on so many cases within, you know, a short timeframe. You mentioned how she might have been motivated by trying to help out her son. Did she receive any kind of rewards in any of these other cases, or was it just solely in the case against DeForest?

[Kyle Tequila]

We could only uncover evidence of a reward in the case against DeForest but you have to remember, rewards, cash rewards paid out to witnesses in cases are not the norm. You know, oftentimes there's a crime Stoppers reward that will be offered if somebody's arrested, But a cash reward paid by the state upon conviction is kind of unusual. And so, you know, it wasn't really surprising that we didn't find any other rewards. We did find other secret reward payments made to witnesses in other cases around this same time authorized out of the same DA's office. And we cover that in the podcast, but none to Violet Ellison that we could find.

[Celicia Stanton]

And, you know, obviously, this is a case with very real stakes. Right. There's a man who is still on death row to this day, and for him, it's life and death. And that's obviously very important as well to all his family and loved ones who, you know, have been living with him on the inside for all these years. And this is something you talk about in Ear witness as well. But DeForest kids have been very strong advocates for his release. Can you share a little bit more about the work that they're doing and how they've kind of managed to maintain hope that one day their father will get out?

[Kyle Tequila]

Yeah, they're such an incredible family. And, you know, it's not just his kids. It's also his mom, Donna. He has all these aunts and uncles and cousins that he's in contact with. You know, we'll send him letters and talk to him on the phone and occasionally visit him at Holman Prison. But his five kids are so dedicated to him and to advocating for him. They show up at all the events. Many of them are doing interviews with the media, and two of them are now posting regularly on social media, Instagram and TikTok. His daughter Muffin, who's a teacher, and his son Robbie. They both have very active social media channels, not just advocating for their father's innocence, but really just talking about him as a person, who he is, what they love about him, how they stay in contact. Their stories have been amplified by celebrities like Kim Kardashian. So it's been really great to see their stories and their message about their father reach new people. Since the podcast came out. They have incredibly intimate relationships with him, and they all stay positive and strong, I think, because Ta Forest is that way. And so, you know, it's just they are such an incredibly loving and hopeful family that have great faith that the truth will prevail. And it has been such a privilege to get to know all of them. And to kind of walk alongside them and be witness to not just the ordeal that they've gone through, but how they've really lifted each other up. It's really been incredible to see.

[Celicia Stanton]

Yeah. And that's something that obviously comes with the territory of doing any kind of deep dive reporting that you did on Ear Witness. You're really having to get in there, get to form these relationships with people. And I think that that's something that is difficult. Right, because you're also navigating this line between being an objective journalist, of course, and the supporting their fight for. Just how is that process for you?

[Kyle Tequila]

Well, I mentioned I didn't come to this story like automatically believing he was innocent. I certainly thought it was possible because I had covered another death row exoneration in Alabama. Anthony Ray Hinton, who was on Alabama's death row for 30 years for a crime he didn't commit until he was eventually released in 2015 when the evidence fell apart. And the state still refuses to compensate him or to admit that he was wrongfully convicted, which says a lot, especially considering that the evidence fell apart. I don't know what they're basing their strong opinions on since there's no evidence. But, you know, I think that my belief in Tafora's innocence is based on the facts and what I've discovered through my own reporting and investigating. And I really felt an ethical obligation to take a position in this and to be completely transparent about that. At the same time, I am a journalist, and so I have always been open to hearing everyone's opinions on this and any other theories, including one that could implicate Taforist. And, you know, it's just not there. No one is running to the microphone or picking up the phone to call me with those stories because they don't exist. So it hasn't really been a hard call. I've never taken a position on somebody's guilt or innocence in any story that I've covered. And I've been a journalist for 25 years, but I really felt like we gotta stand on the side of truth here. And until I see something new that tells me otherwise, this man didn't do it. And being a platform for his family is the right thing to do.

[Celicia Stanton]

Yeah, no, that definitely makes sense. And I think it's difficult across true crime media in order to remain always objective and therefore never take a side. But sometimes objectivity means taking a side too, if the facts are, you know, pointing in a certain direction. So I think that's really great, especially in A case where the stakes are literally life and death. You know, that's a painful reality for him and his family members and there's a very clear action here which is that hopefully he will be exonerated. So I think that's great that you were able to kind of take that stand throughout your witness. This episode is brought to you by Greenlight. Get this, Adults with financial literacy skills have 82% more wealth than those who don't.

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[Celicia Stanton]

I think what listeners I'm sure are wondering too is just where does this case stand today? What do you kind of see as the next steps for him and his fight for justice? Obviously you put out this great series, but he's still incarcerated. What is next for him?

[Kyle Tequila]

I know so many listeners have said like what's the problem? Why is he still there? What is it going to take? I think that, you know, it's extraordinary that the original prosecutor supports a new trial and the current elected district attorney in Jefferson county has actually filed in court a call for a new trial. He first did it in 2020 and then last year he renewed his call for a new trial, filing a much more detailed report on the many reasons that he has taken this unusual step, how he arrived to that position, what he did to get there. You know, it's been four years since he first came out and called for a new trial. And unfortunately the Attorney general in Alabama represents the state in this case, in all capital cases. And he is taking the position that when an elected DA conducts a conviction integrity review and finds the foundation of the conviction has disintegrated, that's what the DA wrote in his latest filing about this case. The AG is basically arguing the court's hands are tied. There's nothing that can be done. We have to go forward with the execution anyway. So he's still seeking Tafora's execution. That's a really extraordinary thing if you think about it. An extraordinary position to take that this elected DA's conviction integrity review that finds the foundation of the conviction has decided disintegrated doesn't matter.

[Celicia Stanton]

So what is the legal grounds for them saying that Their hands are tied. Are they just saying that we never overturn any conviction or I would love.

[Kyle Tequila]

To see any conviction that the Alabama's attorney general has overturned. The arguments are fairly procedural. You know, this is procedurally barred. This isn't a legitimate legal argument. It's essentially discrediting the word of this elected DA and his conviction, integrity review and the word of the original prosecutor. I mean, if that doesn't count for something, what does? But the attorney general is arguing that it doesn't, that it doesn't count, that it's not evidence, that it's a subjective opinion. And, you know, this is kind of where the case stands right now, this extraordinary moment where you have one person in power who's an elected DA who's saying, this man's got to have a new trial, and another person in power who's representing the state saying, no, this man's got to be executed. And a judge in state court is going to have to decide what to do and whether or not to accept this position from the attorney general that there's really nothing that the courts can do at this point.

[Celicia Stanton]

And is there going to be a hearing on that soon where a judge would decide on that issue?

[Kyle Tequila]

So Tafora's attorneys have asked for a hearing that is like, you know, currently being litigated. The state has filed an answer, and then they'll file something else. You know how that goes. The judge has not said yet. She has not set a hearing and has not said that there will be an upcoming hearing. So that really remains to be seen.

[Celicia Stanton]

Okay, you know, just in general, what are the kind of things? I mean, we always share some action items at the end of our main episode, and we did that in this case kind of also directed towards Muffin and the work that she's doing online to advocate. But what kind of things have you heard and seen and what kinds of things were you directing ear witness listeners to do? You know, because obviously it feels like you want to do something when you hear a story like this, but obviously there's also a legal process that's unfolding and, you know, you don't want to do anything that could potentially harm that process. So what do you encourage folks to do?

[Kyle Tequila]

I have really left the advocacy part up to Greater Birmingham Ministries, which is an organization here in Birmingham that has kind of taken that lead role in deciding what is going to most benefit to forest in the spot that he's in legally and personally. And they have, you know, a website set up, they have a listserv that people can sign up for. There are events and they send emails out to people that sign up on the listserv about events. There was a prayer vigil and walk that was surrounding the unveiling of a billboard here in Birmingham a couple months ago. So there's things like that people really want to do more, and so I wish that there was more that I could offer them. But he's got very good lawyers and a legal team on his side. It's just frustrating, I think, for those of us who aren't. I mean, it's frustrating for his legal team, from what I can tell. But I think for those of us that don't sort of know all the ins and outs of how this post conviction litigation works, it just seems ridiculous. It's like people are like, can we write letters? Can we go do a demonstration outside the prison? And, you know, I just tell them to go to the Greater Birmingham Ministries website, and that's really all I can offer. I do go to these events and do a lot of speaking about his case just to raise awareness about it, but it's frustrating. That's why we called the final episode of the series In Bondage to the Law, because it feels that way, that we have this structure, that justice is supposed to happen inside. But, you know, oftentimes it falls short, and it certainly has in this case. And so we just have a long way to go in our criminal justice system, as evidenced by this man still sitting on death row 25 years later. And almost everybody who has looked at this case outside the Attorney General's office thinks he didn't do it.

[Celicia Stanton]

Right. And I think just in general, too, for folks to be able to go listen, obviously to the true crime episode, listen to ear witness, sending that to family and friends, starting conversations about it, you know, at least to raise the awareness of this case. I think a lot of times these sorts of stories are happening all over the country and they kind of fly under the radar because, you know, there's not as much attention paid to folks once they're incarcerated or once the gavel falls and a conviction is set and a sentence goes through. So I think to raise some visibility for this case is also super important thing that today's listeners could participate in. You spent so many years working and reporting on Tafora's case, but you're a journalist with a ton of experience. You've reported on many other cases in Alabama. What has all of that experience taught you about systemic issues in the justice system and what changes you feel are the most urgent.

[Kyle Tequila]

Yeah. I mean, so many changes are needed. It's hard to know where to start outside individual injustices like this one. I think we really have a human rights crisis in our jails and prisons right now, not just in Alabama, but all over the United States. But Alabama is particularly bad, maybe the worst. We have just incarcerated far too many people for too long, and I think as a nation, we have not fully admitted that. You know, we really have to rethink the lengths of sentences and try to get in line with the rest of the civilized world. You know, the rest of the world doesn't send people to prison with terminal sentences. They don't sentence children to life without parole. You know, it's just insane the amount of time that people are getting still in courts across the United States. And so I think we have to really rethink what all this is for. And instead of just being comfortable reforming policies that affect people convicted of nonviolent offenses or drug offenses, we really need to think of reforming the system for everybody. I mean, not just somebody who's in for drug possession, but somebody who's committed murder. Everybody is worthy of redemption. Everybody's worthy of second chances, no matter what they did. And everybody is certainly entitled to be treated like a human being with dignity and respect, and we're not doing that.

[Celicia Stanton]

Definitely. It's something that I feel like obviously sticks out to me across the cases that we've covered on truer crime, the mass incarceration of so many people. And then also, I do like how you point out it's not just about drug offenses or offenses where we feel like it's easier to have empathy for folks. Like, what does a reimagined system look like where we. We take the most heinous crimes that someone may have actually committed and consider, how do we actually rehabilitate those people or allow them an opportunity, a second chance?

[Kyle Tequila]

And a lot of people, if you start talking about this, they will say, oh, well, you don't want to hold people accountable. You want people to just get away with these things. We're not holding people accountable right now. We're abusing them. We are putting them in a harm machine. And it's not just harming incarcerated people. It's harming every person in that prison. I talked to correctional officers, you know, prison nurses, social workers, anybody who's going in and out of the prison. They're all traumatized. It's awful. It is terrible the way we are treating people. And these environments are criminal in and of themselves. I mean, there's drugs throughout the system. It's just a system and collapse. It can't be supported. And we need to just admit that. I think that this is a failed enterprise. We need to start over. We've got to reimagine this instead of just expanding it, because expanding it is what we've done the last 30 years, and look where we are.

[Celicia Stanton]

It makes me think of a quote from an activist who I really admire. Her name is Mariame Kaba. And she said once, like, nobody enters violence for the first time having committed it. And I think about that in relation to US Prisons, which, as you mentioned, are traumatizing environments for everyone involved. And I just imagine most people, the majority. The large majority of people who enter prison will one day exit prison. Right. So in those instances, you know, if they have these extremely long sentences where the environment is so traumatizing, what does that mean for recidivism rates for the crimes that they might commit once they return, especially if they're not set up for success, as, you know, most folks aren't in many states. And so, you know, just kind of thinking about that whole picture, and it's not about, like you said, a lack of accountability, but what is the world we want to live in and what's a system that maybe could get us a little bit closer to that? Yeah.

[Kyle Tequila]

And I just fail to see how putting people in a system awash in drugs and weapons is getting justice for victims. I mean, victims. What they want, studies show, is that whoever harmed them will not harm someone again. And if you put somebody in that kind of environment, you know, it's not like they're gonna be less likely to harm, you know, if they're already drug addicted. And then you send them into a prison system that's full of drugs, they're gonna keep using and probably start using some things they weren't using on the street. You know, they. Extortion is a huge problem in the Alabama prison system, where people are getting hooked on drugs, they're getting preyed upon as soon as they come into the system. And then their families will start getting extorted from people inside the prison calling and demanding them to send money or they will kill their loved one. And it's just epidemic. That doesn't help victims. That's not justice. I don't buy into any of that. It's. What we are doing is not accountability, and we have to be accountable for that.

[Celicia Stanton]

Right, Right. Definitely. And, you know, all of this knowledge that you kind of have shared with us, especially about what should the system look like? What are the issues in our current system? Were all things that you've gained through, you know, reporting for many years on all these different types of cases, and particularly in Alabama. And one thing I really admire about your reporting is just how you make complex information really accessible to the everyday person. So that's something I loved about Ear Witness as well as you could tell this really important story in a format that, you know, makes sense to people and they can understand the nuances of this case. So how can folks follow you and find you and, like, hear the rest? Your other reporting and other cases that you're kind of covering, where should they go?

[Kyle Tequila]

I appreciate you asking. I have a substack called Moth to Flame, and I just report at the intersection of justice and injustice in Alabama. So I cover everything from what I've mentioned, the crisis in our prison system to mental health care to, you know, the habitual offender law in Alabama, our three strikes law that is the most draconian in the nation. I've done extensive reporting on that. And then I also publish in all kinds of places. So you can Google my name or I have a landing page, bethshulburn.com, where I post stuff when I remember to. I'm kind of all over the place. But yeah, that's my beat. Alabama criminal justice. So there's no shortage of stories, unfortunately.

[Celicia Stanton]

I really appreciate you coming on today and sharing a little bit more insight into your process with your witness and some of these other, you know, you know, just details of this case that we didn't get to go into in the true or crime episode. You know, we'll of course hope that all of you who are listening will go take a listen, share on your social media and write a review for Ear Witness as well. Kind of support that story so it gets out there to more folks. But thanks so much, Beth. We really appreciate it.

[Kyle Tequila]

Thank you for having me.

[Celicia Stanton]

Of course. That's it for today's bonus episode. Huge thanks to Beth for coming on and for all the work she's done on Ear Witness. If you haven't listened to it yet, you need to. It's a master class in investigative reporting and one of the most compelling true crime podcasts out there. If you want to stay updated on Tafora's case, please make sure you check out his [e-mail] and as always, you can keep up with true crime on Instagram and xruercrimepod. And you can find me on Instagram and TikTok Alicia Stanton, or through my weekly newsletter, [e-mail] thanks for listening.

[Kyle Tequila]

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