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- [00:02]
Payne Lindsay
You're listening to a Tenderfoot TV podcast.
- [00:10]
Maggie Freeling
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- [01:03]
John Street
Up and Vanish Weekly is released every Wednesday and brought to you absolutely free, but for one week early access and ad free listening. Subscribe to Tenderfoot plus at tenderfootplus.com or on Apple Podcasts if you're already a subscriber. Thank you for your support.
- [01:21]
Matt Frederick
This podcast discusses mature and sensitive content, including descriptions of violence that may be triggering for some audiences. Listener discretion is advised.
- [01:36]
Maggie Freeling
It's Monday, September 7, 1970. Nestled among the foothills of the Sierra Nevada Mountains, the Sahara Hotel Casino is bustling with the expected Labor Day crowd. The casino is a picturesque getaway with breathtaking mountain views, an unmistakably popular destination between California and Nevada. Just one day earlier, a young woman named Joanne Goetche had arrived in town. She'd driven nearly four hours from San Francisco to Lake Tahoe to spend the holiday weekend with her former roommate, Donna Lass. That evening, the two had made arrangements to meet at the hotel where Donna worked. But as the night rolled on, Donna was nowhere in sight, and her friend Joanne became concerned. As the evening progressed, Joanne would have to come to terms with a troubling reality. Donna had not been seen or heard from for over 24 hours. She had vanished without a trace. Over the next 50 years, many would wonder whether Donna's disappearance was some kind of unsolved accident, or whether it may share a link to a dark, sinister chapter in our nation's history. From Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta, I'm Payne Lindsay.
- [03:13]
Matt Frederick
And I'm Maggie Freeling, and you're listening.
- [03:15]
Maggie Freeling
To up and Vanished Weekly.
- [03:20]
Matt Frederick
Hey y'all. Welcome back to up and Vanished Weekly. I'm Maggie Freeling. Today I want to talk to you about the disappearance of Donna Lass. Her case interests me because Donna disappeared in a place and During a time where there were multiple active serial killers. 1970s Northern California, a region we now know as the hunting ground of many infamous killers, such as the Golden State Killer, the i5 Strangler, and the Zodiac. So is it possible Donna was a victim of a notorious killer? We're going to talk about everything in a bit, but first, here's pain with what we know about Donna.
- [04:03]
Maggie Freeling
Donna lass was born November 3, 1944 in South Dakota to James and Francis Lass. She was the youngest of six siblings, which included brothers Raymond and Eugene and sisters Marjorie, Mary and Karen. Donna has been described by those who knew her as shy and retiring. She was seen as the quintessential good girl. Donna never smoked, rarely drank, and faithfully attended church every Sunday. As early as high school, Donna knew she wanted to be a nurse. And after graduating, she pursued her dream. She gained her nurse certification and began working in the medical field, hoping to find ways to help people in need. Donna traveled all over the US as a nurse and at one point held a job as a nurse for a traveling doctor. In early 1970, Donna was working at Letterman General Hospital in San Francisco, California, when a friend persuaded her to transfer to the Sahara Hotel casino in Stateline, Nevada, a few hours away. The months between June and September 1970 would soon become a time of transition for 25 year old Donna. She was settling into her new position as the nurse at the first aid station inside the casino and moved into a new Lake tahoe apartment on September 5th. Donna also joined the new church, St Mary's in the Pines, and had her eyes set on a European vacation the following year, which she was working to save money for. Everything in Donna's life seemed idyllic. She was a young woman pursuing a career she enjoyed and making a real difference by helping people. But tragically, the life she dreamt about was quickly stripped away Shortly after receiving a fresh start in life.
- [06:02]
Matt Frederick
At the time of her disappearance, Donna Lass was truly living her best life. She doesn't seem to have a reason to run away and start a new life. And later we'll get to more evidence that she just didn't disappear willingly. So I want to just take that theory out off the table. Right off the bat. Something bad happened to Donna, but this particular area didn't have much crime. It's like Tahoe, a tourist destination. And in 1970, the world was championing peace, love and unity. Woodstock had just happened. However, we are entering the most violent era in American history. The late 70s, early 80s into the 90s. So as a whole Violent crime was on the rise. So I know I said earlier that the 1970s was the serial killer era. And while that is true, it's really the later part of the decade, into the 80s. Donna last disappeared in 1970. The Golden State Killer's first known victim wasn't until 1974. Rodney Alcala was 77. I5 killer was 77, just to name a few. So Donna's disappearance was at the very beginning of this serial killer phenomenon. So that wasn't something too many people were thinking about. It's a safe town. It's a tourist town. Lake Tahoe. We're not really thinking about serial killers yet. This was jarring. When Donna disappeared in this town, nobody could have foreseen the tragedy that was about to strike the otherwise peaceful and idyllic state line. Here's Payne with more.
- [07:51]
Maggie Freeling
On Saturday, September 5, 1970, Donna is busy unpacking and settling into her new apartment. That evening, she leaves her apartment for an overnight shift at the Sahara Hotel casino. From everything we know, it seemed to be a typical evening for Donna. She treated her last patient around 1:30am Monday morning, and at 1:50am she leaves her last note in the nurse's logbook. At 2am she clocks out but is not seen leaving work. She leaves behind an open letter in her dirty uniform. Some say she was later seen walking with an unknown blonde man. At some point during the day. On Monday, September 7, an unknown male calls both Donna's landlord and her supervisor at the casino. He states that she will not be returning to work due to an illness in the family. By this time, Donna's friend Joanne Goetche had arrived from San Francisco to spend the holiday weekend with Donna. When she's unable to contact her, Joanne contacts security at the casino, and they're able to confirm it's been reported she'll be missing work before long. Hotel officials contact the police to report her missing. As authorities begin to look into Donna's disappearance, they soon turn up some initial clues. Donna's car was still parked at her apartment. Inside her apartment, they find folded clothes set up and her bathroom light left on. But everything else seemed to be in order. Not noticing any signs of forced entry or a struggle, they shift their focus towards finding any evidence that she may have left town. Pretty quickly, they determined that her bank account was untouched, which began to cast suspicion on that caller's message. Over the next several weeks, the search intensified. Detectives interviewed everyone in Donna's life at the time. The search was called, quote, one of the most intensive investigations in memory. Weeks after her disappearance, Donna's sisters Marjorie Belloc and Mary Parker publicly plead for their sister's safe return. They fly from Sioux Falls, South Dakota and speak with Lieutenant John Crow and confirm there was no illness in the family. Whoever that caller was was leading police down a dead end. Authorities continue their search for Donnah, looking for any substance that might help them. Where could she have gone? Eventually, Donna's family hires private detective John Miller after local investigators believe they've followed every lead to a dead end. A short time later, authorities are faced with more troubling news. Weeks after Donna disappeared, another young woman in the area is found brutally murdered inside her apartment, and they can't help but notice some striking similarities. The question now was whether these two cases may actually be linked and whether Donna may have faced the same fate.
- [11:00]
Matt Frederick
More on this case after a quick break. You're listening to up and Vanish Weekly.
- [11:08]
Payne Lindsay
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- [12:16]
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- [13:19]
Matt Frederick
All right, now back to our case. So the fact that someone called both Donna's landlord and her supervisor makes me feel like this case is personal, like someone is buying themselves time because they're connected to her. And it also just makes me think how did they know where she worked and what her schedule was and that she was going into work and, you know, needed to let her landlord know about rent? I mean, sure, Israel Keys bought time with Samantha Koenig. He was texting her boyfriend and her father. But that was modern. I mean, she had a cell phone and could easily be tracked. And it makes more sense to me that people would notice she was missing more quickly and try and track her immediately. Here it's the 70s. I just think that the immediacy isn't there. So I find it very interesting that this person picked up a landline to call where she was going to be. Yes, people used to leave phone books around and a note on the fridge with emergency contacts. Maybe her work, maybe the landlord. Sure, it would make sense that he got the number from there. But this detail just makes me feel like someone who knows her would take these steps. But at the same time, Donna's disappearance has been compared to the disappearance of other women in the area Area like Judith Hikari. And she was a nurse from Sacramento who also disappeared from her apartment in 1970. She was found murdered in a shallow grave. A lot of people have talked about her disappearance and murder in comparison to Donna's disappearance. And that same year, court reporter Nancy Benallic was found in her apartment with her throat cut. She lived near both Donna and Judith. Investigators note similarities between all of the victims being, quote, clean girls. You know, Nancy was a court reporter. Judith and Donna were nurses. I mean, these were straight laced girls. Their lives seemed to be in decent shape and so they were compared. Alzheimes seemed to indicate a serial murderer may be lurking in the shadows. And as word of these crimes spread, locals were shaken to the core. But six months later, their worst fear seemed to be confirmed with the emergence of crucial new evidence pointing to a known serial killer. Here's Payne with the details.
- [15:53]
Maggie Freeling
On March 22, 1971, Paul Avery, a reporter at the San Francisco Chronicle receives a bizarre postcard in the Daily Mail. The back states the Times, SF examiner, and San Francisco Chronicle, along with his misspelled name. Flipping the card over, he sees a patchwork of words and images and pauses as he takes it all in. The front of the postcard showcases a winter landscape with houses, trees, and a snow covered bank. In the upper left corner, a newspaper clipping stating Sierra Club is neatly posted. Across the bottom of the image are other clippings that read, peek through the pines, past Lake Tahoe areas and around in the snow. The bottom left of the image boasts an unnerving statement, sought victim 12. And the hand drawn symbol in the bottom right is all too familiar. A circle with an oversized crosshair in it. The same marking used by the infamous Zodiac killer. In the late 1960s and early 70s, Zodiac was wreaking havoc across the Western US as his killing spree struck fear into citizens all throughout California. Images of the Zodiac wearing a handmade head covering were plastered across the TV and newspapers. His concealed identity made him a force that felt larger than life. He could be literally anyone. The Zodiac used letters, postcards, and handmade ciphers to interact with authorities and members of the media. His demented way of controlling the narrative and keeping people on edge. By 1971, the Zodiac had claimed responsibility of 14 murders, but only five had been confirmed. Authorities were desperately looking for more clues about the other unsolved cases. Naturally, this most recent transmittal drew a lot of suspicion. Was this a reveal that he'd buried victim 12 beneath the snow? A handwriting expert soon confirmed the postcard sent to Avery indeed came from the Zodiac. The question now was what it all actually meant. The image was identified as a real estate development alongside the Nevada shore of Lake Tahoe. And it was believed that the quote Sierra Club referred to the Claire Tappan Lodge, 15 miles from the lake. They suggested that the phrase peel through the pines could refer to skiing and hiking trails, possibly nearby the Mount Rose ski area. As they worked this new lead, investigators began to believe that the Zodiac was in fact referring to Donna Lass, confirming their theory that she'd been killed. For nearly three years, the potential of a connection to the Zodiac weighed heavily on everyone's mind as they continued their search for Donnah. Then, out of nowhere, a new lead came in that breathed life back into Donnah's case and fueled more speculations about her likely death. On Friday, December 27, 1974, just two days after Christmas, Donnah's sister, Mary Pilker, receives a Christmas card in the mail. The card's preprinted message read, holiday greetings and best wishes for a happy new year. But the entry below made her stomach drop. A handwritten signature states, best wishes, Saint Donna in Guardians of the Pines. References to what many believe are her sister Donna in St. Mary's in the Pines, the church Donna had been attending. So what did all this mean? Had the Zodiac attempted another outreach, claiming responsibility for Donna's death? Or was this pointing to a copycat who sought to cause even more confusion? Authorities were now left to decode yet another ominous message and determine once and for all what it may mean for Donna Lass.
- [19:58]
Matt Frederick
People who are deeply invested in the Zodiac case do believe that the Pines card is likely linked to to the Zodiac killer. And I've gone down some Reddit rabbit holes, and there's all kinds of theories linking the Pines card and the Christmas card to each other and linking them both to other incidents of the Zodiac allegedly being in the Lake Tahoe area. So this is a very strong theory that Donna Lass was the last victim of the Zodiac. So investigators tried to search any area that seemed like it was depicted the card. They searched for structures and scenes that were similar to the condos and the wooded, snowy area, but it was just such a large area, and there was too much snow at the time. Remember, this was the winter that they had to call the search off until the conditions cleared. And after that, the case went cold. In 1986, 15 years after Don alas disappearance, a skull is found along Highway 20 and Interstate 80, 45 miles northwest of South Lake Tahoe. And they kept the remains, but at the time, of course, there is no DNA, so the skull remained unidentified. Then in 2022, Nancy Benolak's murder, the court reporter, was solved. They found Richard John Davis as the killer through genetic genealogy, the same way that they solved the Golden State Killer. And what's really interesting as this guy that they caught, John Davis, he unfortunately passed away in 1997. However, he lived around the corner from Judy Hikari, the other nurse. So I think he's a really good person of interest. Then in 2023, the skull is finally identified as Donna Lass's. We now know that Donna was killed and disposed of. She did not disappear willingly, as I said earlier. So the question is, is she a victim of a serial killer? Does this John Davis guy have anything to do with this? And there's a lot of people who study these kinds of cases, particularly the Zodiac. And since that one is the biggest name that you see when you search Donald last I wanted to talk with one of those experts. So joining me to discuss this is Matt Frederick who has spent the last several years looking into various conspiracy theories for his show Stuff They Don't Want you to know. It is one of my favorite shows. Matt also hosted the series Monster Zodiac Killer and spent several years deep diving into Zodiac. So if anyone knows about Zodiac and whether Donna Lass may actually be unidentified victim 12, it's Matt. So stick around for my conversation with Matt after a quick break. You're listening to up and Vanish Weekly. Want to pull off the season's freshest trends? You just need the right shoes.
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- [24:05]
Matt Frederick
Hey listeners, if you have a tip or theories about a case you want to share or a case of interest you'd like to recommend to us, then we want to hear from you. Email us casesenderfoot tv DM us on Instagram avweekly or give us a call at 770-545-6411. Now here's John with this week's critical missing case.
- [24:29]
John Street
On January 19, 2025, 27 year old Marley Ann Zimmerman vanished from the Port Angeles, Washington area. Now according to surveillance video, Marley met her stepdad at a gas station around 9pm to fuel up a vehicle that she'd borrowed from a friend. Marley then headed home and she returned the vehicle to her friend who left the residence, according to nearby home security footage. The following morning, Marley's boyfriend said that Marley was gone when he arrived home, but her dog was left behind, which was unusual. Marley does not have a vehicle and reports show no activity on her phone after Sunday the 19th. Marley is of Caucasian ethnicity She has a height of 5 foot 3 inches and a weight of 115 pounds. She has Strawberry blonde hair and blue eyes. She would now be 28 years old. So, listeners, if you're hearing this and you think you may know some information about Marley's whereabouts, please contact the Port Angeles Police Department at 360-452-4545. And you can reference case number 2025-01309.
- [25:46]
Matt Frederick
All right, now back to our case. Matt, thank you for joining me.
- [25:51]
Unknown
Thank you for having me. I'm excited to talk about this. It's been a minute since I've had an opportunity to talk Zodiac.
- [25:57]
Matt Frederick
So you looked into Zodiac, obviously, a lot. You did a podcast about the Zodiac Killer. What was it like to do a deep dive into this? There is so much out there.
- [26:08]
Unknown
Diving deep into the Zodiac is a bit like losing one's own mind, I would say. I think that is a familiar experience for anyone that has spent, you know, more than an hour really looking into it, because I think once you go that far, you start going down this slippery slope of different avenues, potentialities that exist out there, because it's a. It's. It's a case where most of the evidence is circumstantial, but the intrigue is at potentially the highest level of any case that I've seen before.
- [26:40]
Matt Frederick
Why is that? Why are people fascinated with the Zodiac Killer? I was never fascinated with the Zodiac Killer because we don't know who he is. And I think my fascination with serial killers is knowing why and how they did things. But I think because he's unknown, I never really had that to grasp onto.
- [26:58]
Unknown
I got you. You like the grisly details and the psychological analysis.
- [27:03]
Matt Frederick
I want to know how. How did you get away with it? How did you have kids? How were you? You know? So what is it for you?
- [27:10]
Unknown
I think it's the intrigue of not knowing who it is, and I think that's why. It's a mystery, right? That's why people obsess over a particular suspect. Why? You can have, you know, somebody like Tom Voight, who. Who is the creator of zodiackiller.com, he fully believes that this person, Richard Gaikowski, is the killer, and he is spending good portions of his life attempting to find all of the evidence that would say, even if it's circumstantial, here's why. This is the guy, right? Or somebody like Harvey Hines, who fully believed this guy. His name is Larry Kane, his potential suspect. He believes that Larry Kane is the Zodiac, and he is the best person to have killed some of the later victims, like victim 12, Donna Lass.
- [28:00]
Matt Frederick
During your investigation, was there anything that particularly stood out?
- [28:05]
Unknown
I think one of the biggest things that stuck out to me and the team, it's not just me doing this. Payne was a part of our team. We had a whole bunch of people that were researching, interviewing folks. But one of the most interesting things we found or intriguing things we found is that the Lake Berryessa Zodiac, this image that's burned into most people's minds of what Zodiac looks like, this just strange looking outfit almost looks like an executioner who is. Who has a gun and has a knife and is just ready to kill you on the lake.
- [28:38]
Maggie Freeling
Right.
- [28:38]
Matt Frederick
The mask is always called the executioner's.
- [28:40]
Unknown
Mask, but that was one of the crimes. Two victims, but one crime that was one incident out of three others that we know of were definitely Zodiac, and that outfit was never worn again. With some of the other potential Zodiac encounters with some of the other victims, it's weird to me that that person in that mask could potentially be the same person that, you know, shot Paul. Stine's in the cab. Just guy riding in a cab. He didn't look strange to Paul when he's there. Just riding in the back of the cab and then, you know, gets shot. This does cab driver get shot? It's weird to me that it's the same person that seems like an image of a monster or something that is purposefully done to strike fear into somebody's heart who's either going to be your victim or in this case with Zodiac, it's going to be written about, stories are going to be told about it. But he stabbed these people that he wore that outfit for. He thought they were going to die and nobody was going to tell that story. Like, why? Why? How is that the same person?
- [29:48]
Matt Frederick
What if it's not the same person?
- [29:50]
Unknown
That's why it's intriguing, because what if it's not? Right. So then you have to take your mind to. There are all of these potential suspects out there that have been researched over and over and over again, you know, into infinity by all these researchers. Potentially, more than one of them is Right.
- [30:07]
Matt Frederick
Wow. I guess I never thought of that. Yeah, that Usually it's like we're just looking for one person. How could it be everyone? But maybe it is everyone.
- [30:15]
Unknown
Well, yeah. Is the person who was writing in all of those ciphers the same one, you know, who shot people at Blue Rock Springs?
- [30:24]
Matt Frederick
So I was going to ask you why you think people are so interested in Zodiac, and is it more than just the mystery of who is it? Is it. Because it could be so many people, like, what is it about Zodiac that it's still. You're making a podcast about it today?
- [30:41]
Unknown
Well, I think it's still very interesting because it is the time when it was happening, late 1960s, early 1970s, when these victims are being killed, when America is figuring out what its identity is again. And it's going through all of these pretty tectonic shifts of, like, what does it mean to be an American? What does an American do? What does an American look like? All of these things. And our identity is being formed by all kinds of popular movements, and a lot of it is positive. But then there's this looming Vietnam War that's happening, and then you've got this looming threat of an unknown individual that might sneak up on you in the middle of the night, especially if you're pursuing romantic encounters with somebody out on your own. You might just get killed. It's a specter. It's a. It's a boogeyman.
- [31:38]
Matt Frederick
It really is so scary because so many of the suspects, if not almost all of them, are dads, normal people. I mean, you see so many people come out and say, oh, that was my grandpa. I mean, that's a weird thing, these people coming forward and being like, I think it was my grandpa. I think it was. Every month, there's a new Zodiac suspect. So with the 2023 identification of Donna Lass's remains, the main question now is, what happened to her? So some of the theories that have been looked into is the Witchcraft killer. So around 1975, the witchcraft killer is suspected to have killed over 30 women along the West Coast. The Witchcraft Killer is connected to the Santa Rosa Hitchhike murders. The sheriff of Santa Rosa says that the Witchcraft Killer actually made a symbol out of sticks found at the spot where several victims were also found. And the symbol is two rectangles joined by a stick. And it's an English witchcraft symbol meant to hurry spirits to the afterlife. And people believe that the Witchcraft Killer and the Zodiac Killer are the same man. When you were looking into the Zodiac, did you come across the Witchcraft Killer?
- [32:48]
Unknown
No. Like, never. We never talked about any of that. I wish we had.
- [32:53]
Matt Frederick
What's crazy is how many of these killers, like, you never even heard of the Witchcraft Killer? I didn't until I started looking into this case too. I mean, what if some of these people were Golden State or Witchcraft, and then they're being linked like it's mind blowing to me how many different killers there are.
- [33:08]
Unknown
Agreed. The connective tissue here is the writing, the notes, the postcards, the things that the Zodiac was sending to, you know, local newspapers in the San Francisco area. And that's really the only connection because there appears to be direct knowledge of a lot of the crimes in some of those, you know, letters. Right, but then we also know some of those letters are faked. Then we also know some of those letters came from, like, Toschi, one of the investigators, the primary investigators. So it's really hard to know which parts of it to trust, I guess.
- [33:43]
Matt Frederick
When looking at Donna specifically, one of my questions is from the victims that have been linked to Zodiac definitively. She does not seem to fit a pattern.
- [33:57]
Unknown
No, she is in a completely different place. Right. First of all, we're talking about Lake Tahoe, and all of the other victims were in the Vallejo, Benicia, and San Francisco area. Those are the confirmed victims. Unless Zodiac picked up and started operating out of Lake Tahoe. Right. And it is potentially. That is potentially one of the things, because the postcard that gets sent in says victim number 12 has, you know, the image of the image and words surrounding Lake Tahoe, which is where Donna Lass was abducted from or at least disappeared from. And then you've also got another, at least one or two other victims there that match up as potentially being Zodiac victims. But there's no way to definitively say, yes, that's what happened. And most of the information I get ends up coming from, you know, Tom Voight, somebody who's been looking at this for a long time, or Michael Butterfield, who made zodiackillerfacts.com oh, and David Aranchak, too. That's a whole other guy. Zodiac killer ciphers. These guys have just been investigating for decades, like, literally for decades, and they put all the best information up there. There's no direct connection of any crimes to the Zodiac besides, I think it's the first 1, 2, 3, 4, 4 attacks.
- [35:12]
Matt Frederick
But that's what's so interesting about this. Like, the first thing I flagged was none of the linked victims were abducted, missing, disappeared, and then found decades later. That we know of at least. But this letter, this killer scent was examined. The handwriting was forensically examined to match the Zodiac killer. So it's just very interesting to me. What do you make of that M.O. just being different. Like, he was ambushing people first, and now he is abducting them. Yeah, but the letter was linked to him by handwriting.
- [35:50]
Unknown
Well, what I would say is Again, if you believe it's the same person, the tactics changed over time. It is weird a little bit that the first murders occurred with a pistol, and then he moved to a knife and then back to a pistol. And then, you know, abductions start to happen. If you believe some of the researchers out there, there are people who think it is somebody like Ted Kaczynski doing these killings. Not necessarily Ted Kaczynski, though. Some people believe that the Unabomber. The Unabomber. They believe somebody's tactics are evolving over time, so they're getting further and further away from their victims because they know the police are closer to catching them. But in the case of the Zodiac, it doesn't seem like any investigator was anywhere near close to catching him. That's why it's so mind boggling. Are y'all aware of the new. The new Zodiac Killer documentary that's out on Netflix? Like as we're talking about this?
- [36:51]
Matt Frederick
The one about Arthur Allen? Yeah.
- [36:53]
Unknown
All about Arthur Leigh Allen and new information that's come to light. And Robert Graysmith actually went back out on a documentary, which is huge. He's the guy who wrote the yellow book that was like our bible when we made our show. There is all kinds of new information coming out about this stuff, but there's still no definitive answers.
- [37:12]
Matt Frederick
Do you think we'll ever have definitive answers?
- [37:15]
Maggie Freeling
Never, really.
- [37:17]
Unknown
Good luck.
- [37:18]
Matt Frederick
Come on.
- [37:20]
Unknown
We've made I don't even know how many episodes of Monster the Zodiac Killer we made. We tried so hard to find any answers and we were just like, this is too muddy. I think. I think there. There are too many conflicting roads to go down. And maybe that's why the, you know, the police there in San Francisco and in Vallejo, they keep all of this stuff super close to their chest. They won't talk to any journalists about it. They won't reveal information, even though it's a super old cold case. Because there's got to be something at a heart, at the heart of that evidence that they've got.
- [37:52]
Matt Frederick
It's gotta be DNA. How is there no DNA? It's gotta be. It's gotta be like a partial, right?
- [37:57]
Unknown
Well, there were fingerprints, but then they appeared to not have been the Zodiac Killer's fingerprints, like on the cab with Paul Stine. There are other pieces of evidence that are so intriguing and feel like, oh, that's gotta be it. But it turns out being, you know, a red herring of one sort or another.
- [38:13]
Matt Frederick
So based on everything you know and what you've looked into, do you believe Donna Lass was a victim of the Zodiac killer.
- [38:22]
Unknown
A couple years ago, I talked extensively with this author, Jarrett Kobek, who wrote a series of two Zodiac books back to back. One of them was all about the times that were occurring then, about the Zodiac case. And it was really an overview of the case, and he was just fascinated with it. He couldn't pull himself away from it. He wrote a second book called how to Find Zodiac, wherein he shows exactly how easy it is to get pulled down a rabbit hole when looking at a specific subject and how subjective facts end up to start matching up with this picture. You're building in your mind as you're looking at one individual person. Like, oh, this guy was really into hunting. This person would write to these magazines all the time, like zines back in the day, the alternative ones that you find in the bottom of a bookstore or library. Oh, this guy was an avid bow hunter. Here's a picture of him with his bow, and it almost looks like the Zodiac outfit with leather, because he was going to this medieval festival thing that day. Oh, my God, that's the same day. And he just shows you throughout this entire book how you can almost trick yourself into believing this stuff. He admits that he's tricking himself as he's doing this research, that he believes this guy Paul Doerr, is the Zodiac. He thinks he may have actually found the Zodiac, but he can't. It's hard for him to discern whether or not it's really all of these facts matching up or if it's just his own biases now at this point.
- [39:54]
Matt Frederick
But if the facts are matching, are they not matching?
- [39:57]
Unknown
They are, but it's so. So many of the things are circumstantial that you look at a specific subject and you're like, wow, Ted Kaczynski was there at that time.
- [40:06]
Payne Lindsay
I forgot.
- [40:06]
Matt Frederick
People did think Ted Kaczinski is a studio.
- [40:08]
Unknown
No, I mean, really, you're like, yeah, he did move out into the middle of the woods to, like, escape this stuff. Yeah, he did, like, all of these kinds of codes. He did, like. And then your brain. There's, I think, three or four book series all about how Ted Kaczynski is the Zodiac killer and the guy who wrote it. We speak to him at the 50th anniversary of the first murders in Monster, the Zodiac Killer, and he says it's not directly attributable to him being obsessed with Zodiac, but he got a divorce greatly in part because he was so obsessed with this thing. And then he just continued and he Couldn't stop. And he couldn't stop, and he couldn't stop. And he was basically telling us, I have to quit this thing because it's killing me. I'm obsessed with it to the point where it's detrimental to my health.
- [40:53]
Matt Frederick
I think it's so revealing because I can get obsessed like that. Like, I just think of Michelle McNamara with the Golden State Killer.
- [40:59]
Unknown
Like we.
- [41:00]
Matt Frederick
People that are interested in this, we could can get obsessed. And I think with this case specifically, like, there's nowhere to stop. There's no end.
- [41:12]
Unknown
I would just say anybody who is interested in Donna Lass as a potential victim of Zodiac, check out the work of Harvey Hines. He really does believe this guy Larry Kane is Zodiac. But, you know, according to Butterfield and other people we talked to, there's a lot of conflicting stuff that makes Larry Hines potentially not the killer, but Hines, just like Arthur Leigh Allen, just like Gaikowski, just like all of these other major suspects who are potentially the Zodiac, most of them are deceased. And let's say you do prove that that is the Zodiac, at least you get some closure. Maybe. But in the end, that's what we're fighting for now, and that's it. Closure for some of the victims families, I think.
- [41:55]
Matt Frederick
Yes, but often you can find other victims or find out maybe who a victim is if you know who the killer is.
- [42:04]
Unknown
True.
- [42:05]
Matt Frederick
Well, Matt, it has been fantastic talking to you as usual. Thank you for joining me to talk about Donna's case.
- [42:11]
Unknown
Thanks for having me.
- [42:13]
Matt Frederick
When we return, I'll give my final thoughts on this case, so stick around.
- [42:19]
Payne Lindsay
The missing child is Lucia Blix, 9 years old. Please let her come back home safely tonight. The kidnappers plumbed it meticulously.
- [42:30]
Maggie Freeling
If money is what it takes to.
- [42:31]
Payne Lindsay
Get her back, we're gonna pay it.
- [42:33]
Matt Frederick
The secrets they hide.
- [42:35]
Payne Lindsay
You can't talk about this. You can't write about it.
- [42:37]
Matt Frederick
Are the clues. The mother's hiding something. I know it.
- [42:40]
Payne Lindsay
To find her, tell me where she is.
- [42:43]
Maggie Freeling
The stolen girl.
- [42:45]
Payne Lindsay
Tonight at 10 on Freeform and stream on Hulu.
- [42:48]
Matt Frederick
From the most prolific serial killers, to missing persons cases you've been invested in for years, to victims you've never heard of before. On Inhuman, a true crime podcast, we delve into some of the craziest true crime cases to give you an in depth look at the stories behind the names. If you are fascinated by the world of true crime, dive in with us today by listening to Inhuman. Check out Inhuman on any podcast platform or go to inhuman podcast.com to learn more.
- [43:21]
John Street
Hey, it's John from the up and Vanish team. If you're enjoying this episode, then you should check out the Tenderfoot and I Heart original series, the Zodiac killer. Back in 2019, Payne and the up and Vanish Team linked up with Matt Frederick from Stuff They Don't Want yout to Know to do a deep dive into one of the most notorious unsolved killing sprees in history. Despite 50 years of sketches, ciphers and taunting letters to the press, the question still remains. Who is the Zodiac? Listen to all 16 episodes of Monster the Zodiac Killer wherever you get your podcasts or binge ad free exclusively on Tenderfoot Plus. Now back to the show.
- [44:06]
Matt Frederick
There are so many copycats of the Zodiac that to me, unless there's fingerprints or DNA or something, it's just so difficult to tell whether these letters are truly linked to the Zodiac or if they're a hoax. I think to me, again, it's just really interesting. This person went out of their way to call and taunt the family and investigators and journalists. That is something that the, quote, known Zodiac would have done. But again, my mind just spins. It's just like, are there multiple Zodiac killers? And in the end, does it matter? What actually matters is now that Donna has been discovered murdered, her family knows what happened. It's that lingering. Are they still out there? Will they walk in this door one day? Now they know she won't. And like Matt said, we might never know who the Zodiac Killer is, but fortunately people are trying to figure that out. And if we do know, maybe we can find more victims based on where that person was at the time. It's possible we'll find out when we find out who Zodiac is, that he was in the Lake Tahoe region. There are a lot of people online who do believe that the Christmas card and the letter are authentic Zodiac letters, which means that Donna Lass would have been a Zodiac victim. South Lake Tahoe Police Sergeant Nick Carlquist reiterates that there has not been a definitive evidence based connection to support the theory that she was a Zodiac victim. And in 2023, Donna's family released a statement.
- [45:48]
Payne Lindsay
The family of Donna Lass is very grateful for all the efforts of the South Lake Tahoe Police Department, Placer County Sheriff's Office and others that have worked to help to find our beloved Donna over the past 53 years. The recent identification of Donna's remains has provided some long awaited closure to our family. Donna, a 25 year old registered nurse, was a beautiful, responsible, caring and compassionate person who remains deeply missed by her family and friends. We remain hopeful that ongoing investigative endeavors will yield additional information and ultimately justice for Donna. We continue to ask that anyone who has information regarding the disappearance of Donna Ann Lass contact the South Lake Tahoe Police Department.
- [46:35]
Matt Frederick
If you have any information about the death of Donna Lass, please contact the South Lake Tahoe Police department by calling 530-542-6110 or email crimetipssity and reference case number 00706-4436 A big thank you to Matt Frederick for joining me for this episode. If you're not familiar with Matt, go check out his podcast Monster the Zodiac Killer and stuff they don't want you to know. Like I said, my favorite y'all, thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of up and Vanish Weekly. Be sure to tune in next week as we dig into another new case. Until next time.
- [47:33]
Maggie Freeling
Up and Vanish Weekly is a production of Tenderfoot TV in association with Odyssey. Your hosts are Maggie Freeling and myself, Payne Lindsay. The show is written by Maggie Freeling, myself and John Street. Executive producers are Donald Albright and myself. Lead producer is John Street. Additional production by Meredith Steadman and Mike Rooney. Research for the series by Jamie Albright, Celicia Stanton and Carolyn Tallmadge. Edit and mix by Dylan Harrington and Sean Nurney. Supervising producer is Tracy Kaplan. Artwork by Byron McCoy. Original music by Makeup and vanity set. Special thanks to Oren Rosenbaum and the team at uta, Beck Media and Marketing and the Nord Group. For more podcasts like up and Vanish Weekly, search Tenderfoot TV on your favorite podcast app or visit us@Tenderfoot TV. Thanks for listening.