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- [00:02]
Maggie Freeling
You're listening to a Tenderfoot TV podcast. The holidays are here and wow, they're busy. It's easy for your wellness goals to slip. That's why I rely on Bruins to stay on track. They're a daily snack pack of gummies that's more than a multivitamin, a greens gummy or prebiotic. It's all of that at a fraction of the price. And the best part? They taste amazing. Each snack pack has 6 grams of prebiotic fiber, three times the fiber of leading greens powders, and more than 2 cups of broccoli plus 20 plus vitamins and minerals. Vegan nut free, gluten free, dairy free, no artificial colors or flavors. Grun's ingredients are backed by over 35,000 research publications. There's even Gru's kids so the little ones can enjoy the same all in one. Nutrition get up to 52% off with code TENDERFOOT at Groons co. That's code TENDERFOOTRUNES. G R U N S you have to check out Buried Bones, a podcast about the forgotten crimes that history tried to leave behind. Every week, journalist and historian Kate Winkler Dawson and retired cold case investigator Paul Holes use modern forensics, criminal profiling and investigative analysis to re examine these cases with fresh eyes. Because even centuries later, the details still matter. There are new episodes every Wednesday on the exactly right network. You you can follow Buried bones on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:32]
Narrator/Host
Up and Vanish Weekly is released every Wednesday and brought to you absolutely free, but for one week early access and ad free listening. Subscribe to Tenderfoot Plus@tenderfootplus.com or on Apple Podcasts. If you're already a subscriber, thank you for your support.
- [01:50]
Maggie Freeling
This podcast discusses mature and sensitive content, including descriptions of violence that may be triggering for some audiences. Listener discretion is advised. Hey y'. All. Welcome back to another episode of up and Vanish Weekly. I'm Maggie Freeling. Today we're talking about a case that may not be familiar to many, but has gained traction in recent years and is truly just jaw dropping and infuriating. 21 year old Eric Nike Jones was shot and killed when he attempted to stop an intruder entering a friend's home. And I want to share this story because first and foremost, Eric Jones's family deserves closure and the truth. And I also want to share this case because at the center of it are questions about imperfect and perfect victims and suspects, as well as the legal burden of reasonable doubt. Because the person who's been in prison for this crime for 30 years, says he didn't do it, and the evidence that put him in prison is unreliable at best. It's truly some of the most shocking convicting evidence I've ever seen, and I've seen a lot. As you know, I focus my career in the criminal legal system. Specifically when law enforcement gets it wrong, I dive into those cases to dissect them and figure out how we can make it right as well as prevent wrongful convictions from happening again. In Eric Jones's case, it's obvious how the wrongful conviction happened. But often what's not obvious is that while someone loses years of their life in prison for a crime they did not commit, there's a killer living freely on that person's time and a family who never got answers. I've been looking into these kinds of cases for years, and I couldn't do this work without a close ally of mine who's been in the business about as long as I've been alive. When I reached out to Jason Flom about coming on the show, he asked if we could discuss the unsolved death of Eric Jones and the conviction of Michael Crump. You'll hear my conversation with Jason in a little bit. But first, what happened to Eric Nike Jones?
- [04:24]
Narrator/Host
It's the late night hours of Tuesday, October 3, 1995 in northwestern Roanoke, Virginia. 21 year old Eric Nike Jones and a handful of friends are hanging out at one of the homes in the neighborhood. But a nightmarish scene quickly unfolds when a man storms in, catching everyone off guard. In the blink of an eye, a single shot rings out and the intruder quickly flees the scene. Jones hits the floor looking at the gunshot wound, which is now bleeding profusely. As his friends try to care for him, one of them dials 911. Jones is fighting for his life and moments later succumbs to his injuries. Authorities arrive and begin to process the scene. Despite the gruesome sight, they're faced with a hard reality. They recover no DNA, no fingerprints and no weapon. They have nothing to run with. They question the friends, hoping for any small detail that could help them identify the shooter. But amidst the commotion, witnesses say they saw very little that could help. Authorities soon find themselves investigating an impossible cross crime. With no evidence and no known motive, they face an uphill battle to identify and apprehend the perpetrator. It's a grim reality, but days later, things would take a very unexpected turn, leaving many questioning whether police had actually found their.
- [06:24]
Jason Flom
From Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta, I'm Payne.
- [06:26]
Maggie Freeling
Lindsay and I'm Maggie Freeling, and you're.
- [06:29]
Jason Flom
Listening to up and Vanished Weekly.
- [06:34]
Maggie Freeling
Eric Nike Jones father died of cancer when he was young. He and his siblings were raised by a single mom who cleaned office buildings, though she did well for her and her kids and they lived in a nice middle class neighborhood. A 1995 Roanoke Times article says Nike was close with his brother Doobie, and their sister tells the paper they would sit at the kitchen table challenging each other to drawing contests. Nike specifically like to draw X Men characters. He also loved stuffed animals. The article describes several stuffed bears in his bedroom next to basketball trophies he'd won. He's been described by family members as the kind of person who would give his last dollar to someone. They say his character speaks for itself because he had a lot of friends. Authorities were now tasked with finding the young man's killer, and with little to no evidence at the scene, that proved difficult. While authorities had a tall task ahead of them, they would soon find their first lead.
- [07:42]
Narrator/Host
In the days following the death of Erik Jones, authorities focused their efforts into pinpointing a possible motive for the shooting. Their hope was that it would eventually lead to an identity of the gunman. At the time, authorities suspected Jones had potential ties to drugs and were investigating this as a possible motive. Before long, the local rumor mill was churning with a myriad of theories, including one which seemed to support a possible link to drugs. At the time, Jones brother was awaiting sentencing on drug charges, causing many to fear that he'd come clean for a chance at leniency. Was the shooting of his brother a deadly warning to keep him quiet? While investigators explored all avenues, they retraced their steps back to those present the night of the shooting. On Monday, October 9, police returned to the scene of the shooting and questioned the young woman who had called 911, Tina Trout. Police asked her to recount what she had seen, pressing her for anything she could remember. She shared she'd never got a good look at the shooter and that all she could confirm was that he was dressed in dark clothing. Tina was then asked to review a photo lineup of several persons in hopes it would jog her memory. But even when confronted with several possible suspects, Tina told authorities she couldn't identify the gunman. For now, there was nothing credible to work with. But just when it seemed like police had hit a dead end, something unexpected happened. On Thursday, October 12, Tina showed up to police headquarters saying she believed she could now identify the shooter. As she stared at the men in the photos, something stood out there among them was a picture of a man wearing a black sweatshirt. The clothing matched the one crucial detail she could remember from the night's chaos. As her eyes continued to work back and forth over the photos, she soon pointed to the man in the sweatshirt, confirming him as the one who shot Erik Jones. Armed with new information, police now asked a burning question. Had they finally found their killer?
- [10:05]
Maggie Freeling
We'll be right back after a quick break.
- [10:10]
Narrator/Host
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- [10:13]
Jason Flom
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Jason Flom
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Narrator/Host
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Jason Flom
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- [10:36]
Maggie Freeling
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- [10:58]
Narrator/Host
Head over to get started.TikTok.com TikTok ads.
- [11:04]
Maggie Freeling
And we're back. Tina identified 18 year old Michael Crump in the photo. Michael's mom said in an Investigation Discovery documentary that Michael had no history of violence and his sister said that he loved everyone, helped everyone and looked out for everyone. He was like a dad to her. But as I mentioned at the top of the episode, one of the key things about this case is that despite by all accounts being a kind, docile person, Michael Crump was still the perfect suspect because he was a drug dealer. Michael Crump admits to selling weed and crack, but was adamant that he nor his friends carried guns. He said there was no need to, they felt safe around town and were not violent. But despite no history of violence, the drug connection was what the police needed. Jones was also linked to drug dealing. Jones and his younger brother Doobie dropped out of school and Doobie took to selling drugs. Doobie was allegedly a big time dealer in town who got caught with $47,000 and 132 grams of crack in his bedroom. Jones was only caught with a few grams of weed and his brother adamantly denied Jones having anything to do with big time dealing with Doobie, said he looked out for his brother and sometimes tossed weed his way so he could make extra money. But he kept him out of that, quote, business. In fact, the Roanoke Times article cited friends saying Jones was enthusiastic about starting a new chapter in his life after the five months in jail he did for the weed. They said he had just found a new job he was excited about. And there was no connection between Michael Crump and Eric Jones. By all accounts, they never even knew each other. But despite no connection, Crump having no history of violence and Jones having a few grams of weed, that was enough for police to establish what they believed was a motive for murder. So when Tina identified Crump as the shooter, police felt certain they found their culprit. At only 18 years old, Michael Crump was now confronted with a very harsh reality. He was being questioned for a crime he claimed he did not commit. The question now was whether the ensuing legal process would prove that to be true beyond a reasonable doubt.
- [13:39]
Narrator/Host
When authorities questioned Michael Crump, they quickly honed in on his whereabouts the night of the shooting. Crump was unable to give police an alibi, which they believe signaled his likely involvement in the crime. He was soon formally charged. That December, a grand jury hearing was held to review the evidence and charges against him. Based on Tina's identification testimony and her description of the shooter's clothing that night, which matched the photo presented to her by police, Michael was indicted for first degree murder. Months later, on March 13, 1996, Michael Crump stood trial. He was assigned a public defender and waived his right to a jury trial, deciding instead to proceed with a bench trial and hearing before a judge. Just as with the grand jury trial, the state's case against Michael Crump was built on the eyewitness testimony of Tina Trout. After both the prosecution and defense rested, the judge deliberated Michael Crump's future, now resting in the judge's hands. Soon after, Michael Crump was found guilty of first degree murder and the unlawful use of a firearm. At the hearing, Michael Crump's supporters were overcome with emotion, leading the judge to order custody of Crump and security removal of witnesses. Crump's lawyer, Jim Cargill, criticized the witnesses unreliable and inconsistent testimony and its impact on the trial. At a subsequent hearing, Michael was sentenced to 37 years and ruled ineligible for parole until 2031. He now faced a new reality. Life behind bars. But the fight for justice continues. For nearly 30 years, Michael Crump has been adamant about his innocence, hoping that one day he will be vindicated.
- [15:44]
Maggie Freeling
There are several troubling things about this case, starting with the fact that dealing drugs doesn't make you a killer. Sure, some drug dealers may have rivalries and the drug world is notoriously dangerous. But from what we know, 21 year old Eric Nike Jones was just a kid and he had some weed. Why would Michael Crump, who was also selling crack, an arguably more lucrative drug, would be worried about Jones, a kid with some weed? And either way, Jones's brother said they did not know Crump. And Crump says he didn't know them. Too many times in wrongful conviction cases, I see this law enforcement assuming, well, this person is X. So that means they must be. Yes, but that math just doesn't math all the time. Sure, dealing drugs is dangerous and puts you at risk for many things, including wrong place, wrong time. But to make the unfounded jump that dealing drugs means murder is shoddy police work at best. And that's all the police had, except for the eyewitness. To me, Tina is the most troubling part about the case. And witness identification should always be backed up by some kind of physical evidence, which did not happen here. Mistaken eyewitness identification is the single leading cause of wrongful convictions. 72% of cases overturned by DNA testing were mistaken witness IDs. And to compound all of this unreliability, Tina Trout was partially blind. Tina had been battling a degenerative eye condition. Before Eric Nike Jones killing, Tina had undergone three eye surgeries and was nearly legally blind. To rest your only evidence on a nearly legally blind witness is truly shocking. It's shocking that Michael Crump's attorney waived a jury trial, something that rarely happens. And it's shocking that despite pointing out that Tina's story and memory changed, the judge still thought that there was evidence beyond a reasonable doubt to find Michael Crump guilty. The legal system is supposed to deliver justice, but too often it doesn't. Too often it cares more about a conviction than the truth. That's why I have trouble calling it the criminal justice system anymore. Eric Jones's family has had to relive the death of their son. Every time Michael Crump appeals his case, every time a podcast or TV show comes out about Michael Crump, they are forced to relive insurmountable tragedy. And that's not Michael's fault. That's not our fault for telling his story. That's the fault of the system. Too quick to get a conviction instead of searching for the truth. There were at least six other suspects the night of the homicide. Yet none of them were properly looked into. As I mentioned earlier, my colleague Jason Flom asked to discuss Michael Crump's case with me. Jason is a bulldog advocate for the wrongfully convicted, and he's married to Kalia Ali, the daughter of Muhammad Ali, and his career has taken an interesting journey. For many years, Jason has served as a music executive signing artists like Katy Perry and Kid Rock. But Jason found purpose in being an advocate and ally for folks in prison, particularly those who are wrongfully convicted. I could wax on about Jason's philanthropy, humanity, and just general, beautiful nature, but our conversation about Michael was fascinating and I want to get to it. So when we come back from our break, we'll bring you our discussion Black Friday More like Black Friday. Yay. Shop the DSW Black Friday sale and take 30% off almost all the shoes, accessories and giftable goodies we've got@dsw.com plus 30% off just about every regular price item at your DSW store score shoes that get you and everyone on your list and prices that get your budget. So carpe the deal, head to Designer Shoe Warehouse and get that gift list done. DSW Let us surprise you. Your perfect style is more than a fit, it's a feeling. When you step into any Maurices, our stylists are dedicated to helping you find the perfect outfit because there's no better feeling than looking your best. Shop at one of our 800 plus stores or online@maurices.com for new items arriving daily and holiday flash deals. Maurices that styled feeling. And now here's this week's critical missing case.
- [20:54]
Narrator/Host
Today's case comes from the Alpharetta Police Department who are requesting the public's help in finding a young woman. 27 year old Mariana Munoz recently ceased all communication with family members and has not been seen or heard from since late October. This is incredibly out of character for Mariana and her family is deeply concerned. They believe she may be experiencing a mental crisis. Mariana drives a 2023 black Jetta with Georgia plate number SBZ5042. Her car was last seen on October 28th near Mansell Road and Howells Road in Roswell, Georgia. Mariana is described as being 5ft 4 inches tall and weighing 130 pounds. She has dirty blonde hair and brown eyes. So listeners, if you have seen Mariana or know her whereabouts, please contact the Alpharetta Police Department Department at 678-297-6321. You can also check out the UAV Weekly Instagram page UAV Weekly to see a picture of Mariana and Repost for more visibility. Thanks.
- [22:09]
Maggie Freeling
All right, we're back. Jason Flom, can you introduce yourself for listeners who may not know who you are?
- [22:17]
Jason Flom
Yes, I am Jason Flom, senior vice president of the Maggie Freeling Fan club, longtime criminal justice reform advocate. And when I say long time, I'm talking going back to 1993. You know, by day, I'm a record executive. That's my job. And my calling, of course, is helping to free people from prison who don't belong there.
- [22:38]
Maggie Freeling
So, Jason, I just want to say for listeners, you know, they're listening to up and Vanished, we very often exclusively talk about cases where people go missing or someone is murdered and we try to solve their case, talking about a wrongful conviction. Why are we doing that today? Kind of make that connection for listeners.
- [22:55]
Jason Flom
Yeah, look, I mean, missing and murdered is important, but the fact is that less than half of all murders are ever solved in America. Right. I think last I looked, Hawaii was under 20%, which is insane. Right. But even then, I think you have to reduce those numbers by the percentage of wrongful convictions, which is a significant percentage. And the fact Is, whether it's 10% or 5% or 15%, whatever it is, it's a big number, especially if you're one of those people. And let's not forget that when the wrong person is arrested, tried, persecuted, prosecuted, and convicted, the right person remains free to commit all sorts of mayhem and inflict horrible outcomes on unsuspecting people across the country. And we see it again and again and again. We stand with your community in wanting to help prevent those things from happening by putting pressure on on the system to get it right in the first place. Don't take shortcuts. Don't allow nonsense in our courtrooms disguised as science, disguised as certainty. And let's focus on getting the actual perpetrator in these cases in which violent crimes were actually committed to justice. We all want that same outcome, and that'll make us all safer and make us all sleep better at night. So it might seem like we're coming at it from different angles, but at the end of the day, I think we all want a lot of the same things.
- [24:37]
Maggie Freeling
So one of the cases that keeps you up at night is Michael Crump. And I also want to plug an incredible podcast called Junk Science that you guys have at Lava about all kinds of, quote, science that is now outdated, that wrongfully can convict people. And one of the leading, if not the leading, cause, of wrongful convictions is eyewitness testimony. So that is a huge part of Michael's case. Jason, why did you suggest this case?
- [25:11]
Jason Flom
So the Michael Crump case came to me from a guy named Darrell Hunter, who was one of the Virginia 3, which is actually the latest episode of Wrongful Conviction that we just put out, which is one of my favorite episodes we've ever done. And Daryl was 15 when he and his brother Nathaniel, who was 24, and their friend Reginald were all wrongfully convicted of murder. Collectively, they were sentenced to hundreds and hundreds of years in prison. And they ended up serving between the three of them, almost 80. I helped to get them out, and I'm really proud of the role I played in their case. And, you know, it's amazing, Maggie. I. I often say that I have so much love for these people who went through hell through no fault of their own, like Daryl did, and then come out carrying buckets of water for the people they left behind. And so he said to me, look, you got to help me get Michael Crump out of prison. So I said, all right, tell me about it. They were in adjacent cells for a couple of years. You know, you talk a lot, I imagine, when you're in there. And they did, and they got to know each other and. And Daryl got to know Michael's case and Michael's case. I mean, the capsule summary alone to keep everybody up at night, right? The idea that this guy was convicted and sentenced to 37 plus three or 40 years in a one day trial with a single eyewitness, the defense presenting no defense because the lawyer told Michael he didn't need to, because the prosecution had no case. You know, this one has all the hallmarks that we look for, right? You have a white witness and a black suspect. And we know that cross racial identification is actually less accurate than guessing.
- [26:50]
Maggie Freeling
That is an actual fact. Cross racial identification. Can you explain that?
- [26:55]
Jason Flom
As crazy as this sounds, a person who wasn't at the crime scene has a better chance of guessing correctly who the actual perpetrator was than somebody who was. This was first proven in an experiment in the 1890s in England where a professor had someone run into his classroom and assault him and then run back out again. And then he did a lineup and he asked the kids to identify the perpetrator. Now, they had just seen this up close and personal. It was only a few minutes later. And everybody picked the person they thought did it, and everybody was wrong because the suspect wasn't in the lineup. And this has been repeated, you know, countless times. The results are always predictable and they're always the same. The reasons for it, I think, are pretty interesting, which is that when you witness a crime, even if you actually get a good view, which that wasn't the case in this case, but even if you get a good view of the suspect, your adrenaline is going crazy. Your sentences are fight or flight, right? You might be running away, you might be doing whatever, but you're trying to figure out how to stay alive. There's crazy stuff going on. Then you have the pressure of feeling like you want to help the cops. Now forget, even if time goes by, it gets worse and worse and worse. The idea that in most cases, the person conducting the mugshot review or the lineup actually knows who the perpetrator is, so they're consciously or subconsciously steering you. First of all, you should only do one mug shot per page. We typically, in this country do many mug shots per page. That has been proven to reduce the wrongful identifications by 50% while not reducing correct identification. So that should be instituted everywhere so they can give you these little subconscious clues that are super powerful in a highly charged environment like that, which lead to these awful eyewitness mistakes.
- [28:49]
Maggie Freeling
And then what about what happened with Michael Crump? He was in a sweatshirt. He looked different. Yeah.
- [28:56]
Jason Flom
So in the lineup, there was only one person in a hoodie. And really the only thing that the quote, unquote eyewitness whose own sister has said that she couldn't have seen it. Right? And her sister was there right next to her, and she's like, she couldn't have seen it. She didn't see it. But her original description was just. It was a guy who had a hoodie pulled tight, you know, with the hood on, so it was covering most of his face. So she could only see like sort of the center of his face. And it was dark. And she had something called Parker Stevenson syndrome.
- [29:29]
Maggie Freeling
Any reasonable prosecutor would say we need more evidence than this woman who's had three eye surgeries saying she saw this man.
- [29:40]
Jason Flom
This woman who's had three eye surgeries who said from day one she didn't know who did it, she didn't get a good look. She doesn't know that. She just thinks that it was a guy in a hoodie. Now, her story changed many times. She changed the colors, the this, the that, the sneakers. She always came up with different story after different story. Here we are all these years later, and again, the cross racial thing just puts the cherry on the cake, because we know that and this is true not just with white people identifying black people, but any race identifying another race. We Just are not that good at it. And the other thing that's super important to remember is that most people think that our minds work more or less like cameras and that you can remember details and things and stuff, but they don't work that way at all. We're all extremely open to suggestions, and our memories are malleable. The idea that you're going to go a week or a year or 10 years later and make a positive identification, especially in a case like this where the guy literally opened the door, fired a shot and split. She said the perpetrator had on, quote, dark tennis shoes and a dark looking hooded jacket and had the, quote, hood drawn with the string pulled to where you could only see his nose, part of his eyes and, like around his mouth. Excuse me. Okay. And then she goes. And then it goes on. She told police that they, quote, didn't have much lights on because the baby was asleep. The only light was on was the one in the kitchen, and there was one little light on in the ceiling fan. And like I said, her sister has now come out and said she didn't see anything and she was right there. And it just gets worse because she changed her story so many times, right? She just kept changing. Almost everything in her story changed until it fit the narrative that apparently somebody wanted it to fit. And Mike was just the convenient scapegoat. It was a rush to judgment. They wanted to clear the case and they wanted to get somebody. And Mike was a guy who was good for it, and that was it. I mean, she. You know, it's also worth noting you'll see all this on the Change.org petition, which I encourage people to sign. Change.org, michael Crump will come right up. You know, she claimed that the memory came back to her because it was somebody behind her at a convenience store buying orange juice. And he was like, banging on the orange juice bottle. And that got her attention. And then she noticed that it was the same guy. But did they ever go and look at the surveillance camera from the convenience store? Nope. So he had the perfect storm. He had the eyewitness who was confused or coerced or whatever she was. He had a lawyer who was asleep at the wheel. To, to be polite about it, he had a bench trial instead of a jury trial, which, you know, I think most. I'm not a lawyer, I don't give legal advice. But I think almost anyone who is a talented, competent lawyer would advise in almost every case to take a jury trial. Because you get 12 fights at the Apple Right. I mean, you only need one person to vote not guilty, whereas it's one judge that was terrible and then he had police. I don't know what their motivation was, but they clearly weren't interested in solving the case. They were interested in clearing the case. And clearing the case is what they did.
- [33:05]
Maggie Freeling
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- [34:13]
Narrator/Host
Hey listeners, if you have a tip or theories about a case you want to share or a case of interest you'd like to recommend to us, then we want to hear from you.
- [34:22]
Jason Flom
Email us casesenderfoot tv, DM us on.
- [34:27]
Narrator/Host
Instagram, UAVWeekly or give us a call at 770-545-6411. You can also join the conversation on.
- [34:37]
Jason Flom
Our discord at Discord GG upandvanished.
- [34:42]
Narrator/Host
Now back to the show.
- [34:47]
Maggie Freeling
In fairness to Tina Trout, you know, whatever reason she came back and said Michael Crump did this, we know of a woman named Jennifer Thompson who's become very famous. She wrote a book called Picking Cotton and she was an eyewitness in her own rape. She was convinced that Ronald Cotton was the man who raped her years later. Long story short, Ronald Cotton is not the man who raped her and Jennifer Thompson went on a journey to now reconcile with the Fact that this man, she thought, who raped her, who she convinced herself in her own memory, he did this. And so, in fairness to Tina, you know, if you have cops there telling you or who knows what really happened, this is the guy. She even could have convinced herself that Michael Crump, by the time of trial, was the guy.
- [35:37]
Jason Flom
I'm so glad you brought up Jennifer Thompson, who is a hero of mine and to so many of us in this movement. Jennifer was called the perfect witness because she was home alone. She was a white blonde lady, a young college student in North Carolina, beautiful girl. She was sober. And a black man broke into her home and attacked her. I think the phone rang and spooked him, and he ran away. But she said she spent the entire time studying every detail of this man's face, every marking that he had, because she said to herself, if I lived through this, because he had a knife and stuff, she said, if I live, I'm going to make sure that this guy goes to prison. They can never do it to anybody else. So the perfect witness, indeed. And sure enough, a couple days later, Ronald Cotton picked up. She identified him with absolute certainty in a photo array, in a lineup, and in the courtroom with absolute certainty. And this is only a couple days right after the thing that he's picked up. And then he was convicted. At some point, people started saying, there's another guy in the prison here who looks a lot like you. That guy ultimately, I think, confessed. And they got the DNA and it showed that he was, in fact, the guy who did it, and Ronald was not. They didn't know each other. They had no association with each other. And the tragedy of it all is that. And it goes back to our. Our talk about victims, Maggie, which is that this guy had gone on by then and attacked something like 30 other women. Can you imagine? Like, this guy was a monster. And had. You know, had he been brought to justice in the first place, none of those women would have ever had to experience this awful. You know, it's incredible, too, because after he was exonerated, she went into a tailspin, and she asked to meet him, and they met. And he walked in, and before she could say a word, he said, I forgave you and I forgive you. And thus started this incredible friendship where they've written this book together, picking cotton. They've been on 60 Minutes. They go around speaking to anybody that will listen to them, prosecutors, public, whatever, about the awful consequences of wrongful identification.
- [38:05]
Maggie Freeling
You know, it just. Again, it's about the victims. She was re. Traumatized by not getting this right. And when someone is convinced for so long that someone is a perpetrator, and then they have to reconcile with that. Like, I feel so bad for the families of victims in wrongful conviction cases because for so long, this person has become this evil. You know, Michael Crump, in the family's eyes, is this evil man who killed their son. And that is so hard to let go of decades later. So in Michael's case, were there better suspects than Michael Crump?
- [38:45]
Jason Flom
There is certainly a better alternate suspect. And there was a powerful episode of On Discovery ID of their show Reasonable Doubt, where they located the guy who was the logical suspect. And he agreed to speak, you know, with his face blurred. He goes, I know Michael didn't do it, because I know who did. And you can kind of. I mean, they. They kind of dance around it a little bit. But it becomes clear in the course of this interview that he's talking about himself. You know, he's dealing with his conscience. But I think it's a lot better to be dealing with your conscience than to be spending 29 years in prison for a crime you didn't commit. So, yeah, I mean, they went and they. They found numerous people who could back up almost everything that Michael was saying and show that it's true. He didn't know these people. He didn't commit this crime. He wasn't there. He had alibi witnesses who his attorney just didn't call. His attorney also made the horrible mistake of telling him to take a bench trial.
- [39:49]
Maggie Freeling
Yeah. I just want listeners to know also that the Constitution defines your right to an attorney. It does not define your right to a good attorney. So you could get somebody and they could be sleeping there, and you're fucked.
- [40:04]
Jason Flom
There are too many examples of attorneys who have literally just thrown their client to the wolves. And Michael Crumps is, I think, one of those Michael's also. I've gotten to know him well. He's always in a good mood. He's funny, he's smart, he's quick. But, you know, he's stuck in there until his first parole hearing in 2031, unless we can get enough people to pay attention to this case, which is exactly what we're here to do.
- [40:33]
Maggie Freeling
So a listener might ask, obviously, this shouldn't have been brought to trial. You know, these prosecutors should be held accountable. Jason, is that a possibility?
- [40:46]
Jason Flom
No. There are two different types of immunity. Police have qualified immunity, which is still extremely powerful, and prosecutors have absolute immunity. What that means is they can't be sued it's one of the only professions, if not the only profession, where you could literally send somebody to their death knowing they were innocent and you could just float along, go out about your day. To my knowledge, only two prosecutors in the history of this country who have ever gone to jail for framing somebody. And so they have immunity, they have impunity, and let's face it, people or prosecutors are generally very ambitious people. Right. They're very type A, they're hard charging people. They went through law school, they did all this stuff, and now they're in a position where they're upwardly mobile. Right.
- [41:36]
Maggie Freeling
Might be a judge, Attorney general, perhaps cabinet position. Exactly. Lots of upward mobility.
- [41:42]
Jason Flom
And please remember, by the way, that over 80% of judges are former prosecutors. So sometimes it feels more like an ambush than a trial because if once you get in there, it grinds you up and spits you out and basically processes you into prison.
- [42:01]
Maggie Freeling
For any listeners who want to look into Michael's case and want to help, what can they be doing?
- [42:07]
Jason Flom
You can go to change.org they do an excellent job of summarizing the case. Every community is different, but especially if you live in a smaller community, you have, your voice is louder. Go to your city council meeting, make your voice heard, and vote. I mean, everyone's tired of hearing people say vote, but in the local elections. I'm talking specifically about local elections. We've had elections literally come in tied or one vote for a district attorney. Yeah, yeah. Or judge. Some are appointed, others are elected. So yeah, if you can get out there and just do those things, you'll be making a difference. And I don't want people to feel helpless. You're not helpless. The only people that are helpless are people who are trapped in this criminal justice Kafka esque nightmare of America in 2025. I mean, serve on juries as well, because if you're listening to our voices, you're more educated than your average bear. And don't forget, the life you save could be your own.
- [42:57]
Maggie Freeling
You know, I tried to get out of jury duty my whole life until I started doing this work. My whole life. I was like, if I tell him I'm a journalist, maybe if I just dress so sloppy, like I just won't have to do this. I'm like, waiting for the opportunity again. Hopefully people are excited to serve on jury duty. Now we need smart jurors so a Michael Crump does not wind up where he is. Jason, is there anything else you want to plug? I mean, listeners know where to find you. They can find you at Wrongful Conviction. They can find you at Jason Flom. Anything coming up you want to plug talk about before we go?
- [43:30]
Jason Flom
No, I think we've given people a lot to chew on here. I appreciate people hanging in and listening to us and keeping an open heart and mind. I hope you do. I'm super excited about the new show with you. Maggie Graves county it's one of the best podcasts I've ever heard and I'm really proud to be a part of it. So yeah, check that out and get mad. Join us.
- [43:53]
Maggie Freeling
Jason, I appreciate you. I adore you. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with everyone on this show.
- [44:01]
Jason Flom
Right back at you.
- [44:06]
Maggie Freeling
There are so many questions as to whether justice was properly served for Eric Nike Jones and his family. Their certainty of Michael Crump being the shooter has waned over the past 30 years. One family member spoke to Investigation Discovery and still wished not to be identified because she feared the real killer may still be out there.
- [44:30]
Jason Flom
I won't say that he didn't do it. I really don't know. But if he didn't do it, I wouldn't want to see him sitting there for nothing.
- [44:41]
Maggie Freeling
At least six other suspects were near the scene that night, including a potential hired hitman, and they were never checked out. That alone leaves too many questions about the integrity of the conviction. In recent years, private investigators working alongside the nonprofit Uncuff the Innocent have breathed new life into this case. They plan to re examine the death of Eric Nike Jones and Michael Crump's innocence in hopes to find a pathway to overturn his conviction. Michael Crump's first bid at parole will be in 2031. Y', all, thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of up and Vanish Weekly. Be sure to tune in next week as we dig into another new case. Until next time.
- [45:46]
Jason Flom
Up and Vanish Weekly is a production of Tenderfoot TV in association with Odyssey. Your hosts are Maggie Freeling and myself, Payne Lindsay. The show is written by Maggie Freeling, myself and John Street. Executive producers are Donald Albright and myself. Lead producer is John Street. Additional production by Meredith Stedman and Mike Rooney. Research for the series by Jamie Albright, Celicia Stanton and Carolyn Tallmadge. Edit and mix by Dylan Harrington and Sean Nurney. Supervising producer is Tracy Kaplan. Artwork by Byron McCoy. Original music by makeup and vanity set. Special thanks to Oren Rosenbaum and the team at uta, Beck Media and Marketing and the Nord Group. For more podcasts like up and Vanish Weekly, search Tenderfoot TV on your favorite podcast app or visit us@Tenderfoot TV. Thanks for listening. Hey Ryan Reynolds here wishing you a very happy half off holiday because right now Mint Mobile is offering you the gift of 50% off unlimited. To be clear, that's half price, not half the service. Mint is still premium unlimited wireless for a great price, so that means a half day. Give it a try at mintmobile. Com.
- [47:13]
Maggie Freeling
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