UNEXPLAINED: Travis Walton

Summary

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Up and Vanished Weekly (Sept 10, 2025)

Episode: UNEXPLAINED: Travis Walton

Hosts: Maggie Freeling, Payne Lindsey
Notable Guest: Travis Walton (archival/interview clips)

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Brief Overview

This episode unpacks the enduring mystery of Travis Walton’s 1975 disappearance in Arizona, one of the most debated and sensational cases in UFO lore. The hosts, Maggie Freeling and Payne Lindsey, revisit Walton’s alleged abduction by a UFO, detailing the events before, during, and after his five-day absence. They explore the incident’s cultural legacy, various theories (abduction, hoax, psychosis), and the ongoing debate between believers and skeptics. With first-hand accounts and thoughtful discussion, the episode examines how the Travis Walton case sits at the crossroads of true crime, unexplained phenomena, and collective belief.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: The Incident and Immediate Aftermath

• Location & Date: November 5, 1975, Apache Sitgreaves National Forest, Snowflake, Arizona ([03:45])
• Incident Recap: Travis Walton, a young logger, disappears after a reported encounter with a disc-shaped craft witnessed by six coworkers ([04:21]).
• Search and Suspicion: With no evidence of Walton, the team of loggers becomes suspects in his potential murder ([04:25]).
• Cultural Place: Immediately compared to iconic UFO cases like Betty and Barney Hill and Roswell ([06:14]).

2. Travis Walton’s Personal Account of Abduction

• Build-up: The crew sees an unusual light in the woods, presuming it to be a campfire or hunters ([06:55]).
• Encounter: Walton identifies a metallic disc and, acting on impulse, approaches as his coworkers shout warnings ([07:48]).
• Impact:

  "Bam, something hit me. Kind of a stunning, electric shock feeling, like getting hit by a truck. They saw me fly through the air and land like a dead body."
  — Travis Walton ([09:38])

• Unconsciousness & Disappearance: The crew flees in panic; on returning, Travis is gone ([09:57]).

3. The Missing Days: Skepticism and Scrutiny

• Police Investigation: The crew is suspected of foul play. They undergo polygraph tests; five pass, one is inconclusive ([11:38]).
• Rumors Swirl: Reports emerge of an altercation involving Travis earlier that day, fueling hoax/murder theories.

4. Walton’s Reappearance and Recollection

• Found: Reemerges five days later in Heber, AZ, disoriented and physically depleted ([19:19]).
• Walton’s Testimony:

  "I was waking up… I thought I was in a hospital… I could see these weren’t doctors. They were small, hairless, huge eyes. I was terrified."
  — Travis Walton ([13:52])

• Inner Experience: Describes confusion, fear, and attempts to escape, encounters with humanoid and human-like beings, being overpowered, and blacking out ([13:52]–[19:19]).
• His Belief: ETs kept him alive and healed him before releasing him. He believes some were humanoid in appearance ([19:19]).

5. Cultural Impact & Ongoing Debate

• Skeptics’ Arguments:
  • Possible financial motive (winning National Enquirer award, book deal).
  • Walton’s family described as “UFO buffs.”
  • Contractual pressures (logging timelines) possibly inspiring a hoax ([19:19]).
• Consistent Testimony: Despite scrutiny, the six crew members never recanted; public and law enforcement debate lingers.
• Media: Walton’s book “The Walton Experience” becomes “Fire in the Sky” film ([19:19]).

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In-Depth Conversation: Payne Lindsey & Maggie Freeling

Investigative Mindset & The Broader UFO Question

• Why Cover UAPs?

  "In so many ways, the entire alien UFO myth is just like one of the biggest unsolved mysteries out there… It’s persisted for a long time."
  — Payne Lindsey ([27:09])

• Belief in ET Life:

  "It’s mathematically near impossible that we're the only intelligent life in the universe. Real question is, has intelligent life ever visited Earth?"
  — Payne ([27:51])

• Rare Case: Walton’s is one of few well-documented “missing person” UFO cases ([30:50]).
• Skepticism vs. Sincerity: Payne notes Walton’s visible trauma and sincerity during their High Strange interview, underscoring the challenge in separating truth from belief ([31:42]).

Polygraphs, Group Consistency & Alternative Explanations

• Polygraph Results: All but one crew member passed, even under threat of murder charges ([33:23]).

  "That’s a lot of people to uphold this secret. Once you’re in the police station and they’re talking about murder charges… wouldn’t you just give up if it was fake?"
  — Payne ([32:41])

• Hoax As Unlikely: The logistics, danger, and enduring consistency make a coordinated deception difficult to believe, though not impossible ([30:50]).

The Government’s Role & Modern UAP Disclosure

• Recent Disclosure Movement: Congressional hearings, whistleblowers like David Grusch, and intelligence reports acknowledge unexplained phenomena ([19:19], [36:26]).

  "At what point does this come to a head either way? ... There’s science now. Let’s face the music that there’s something else going on."
  — Payne ([36:26])

• Government Secrecy: Theorized that authorities have “nothing to gain” from disclosing reality, citing religion and social stability ([37:43]).

International Context & Public Perception

• Not a Uniquely American Phenomenon: Major UAP cases and government openness found globally (e.g., Brazil), with America’s secrecy contrasting some countries ([41:44]).
• Shifting Mainstream Attitudes: Younger generations increasingly open to ET life; old stigmas fading in the wake of digital documentation ([48:03]).

The Nature of “Contact” and Speculation about ET Motives

• Arrival & the “Grays” as Future Humans?:

  "The beings radiate some sort of peaceful energy… it makes me think it has something to do with ‘don’t destroy yourselves, don’t destroy the planet.’”
  — Maggie ([46:05])

• Motives/Interest in Earth: Likened to a “nature preserve” — advanced beings could observe or intervene as stewards, not conquerors ([47:25]).
• Limits of Human Perception: The “nuts and bolts” UFO narrative may miss a more complex reality, possibly overlapping with other “paranormal” phenomena ([44:58]).

Epistemology & Evidence

• Walton’s Philosophical Take:

  “It all comes down to facts and reasoning. Are your facts true and complete, and is your reasoning valid? Failure to prove is not disproof.”
  — Travis Walton ([50:57])

• Critical Thinking: Evaluation should begin with evidence, not predetermined conclusions ([51:51]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the indescribable nature of the encounter:

  "It had a really weird vibe to it… a real super bass note… I was terrified."
  — Travis Walton ([07:30])

• On government secrecy:

  "They have nothing to gain by telling you. What do they gain by unboxing some paradigm-shifting concept?"
  — Payne Lindsey ([37:43])

• On group consistency:

  “If this was a hoax, would they really go down for murder?”
  — Maggie Freeling ([11:38])

• On the mystery’s persistence:

  "The mystery of his disappearance has never truly gone away."
  — Maggie ([50:16])

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• [03:45] — Incident retelling, initial search, and public suspicion
• [06:55] — Travis Walton’s account of the encounter (his own words)
• [13:52] — Travis describes his experience aboard the craft
• [19:19] — Return, aftermath, and cultural impact
• [27:09]–[33:23] — Payne and Maggie discuss belief, investigation, and evidence
• [36:26] — UAP disclosure and government motives
• [41:44] — Global context for sightings
• [44:58] — Theoretical origins and motives for ET encounters
• [50:57] — Walton’s reflection on facts and truth

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Conclusion

The Travis Walton case stands as a rare intersection of missing person investigation, mass-witness testimony, and the UFO phenomenon. Despite decades of skepticism and scientific scrutiny, Walton’s story and that of his crew remain consistent, affecting public attitudes toward unexplained phenomena. The episode highlights the importance of open inquiry — “You gather the evidence first” — and reminds listeners that, whatever the truth, some mysteries endure as both warning and invitation to examine the unknown.

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Maggie Freeling]

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[Payne Lindsay]

Jan Marsalek was a model of German corporate success.

[Maggie Freeling]

It seemed so damn simple for him.

[Payne Lindsay]

Also, it turned out a fraudster.

[Travis Walton]

Where does the money come from? That was something that I always was questioning myself.

[Payne Lindsay]

But what if I told you that was the least interesting thing about him? His secret office was less than 500.

[Travis Walton]

Meters down the road.

[Payne Lindsay]

I often ask myself now, did I.

[Travis Walton]

Know the true Rian at all?

[Maggie Freeling]

Certain things in my life since then have gone terribly wrong.

[Payne Lindsay]

I don't know if they followed me to my home. It looks like the ingredients of a really grand spy story because this ties together the Cold War with the new one. Listen to Hot Agent of Chaos wherever you get your podcasts.

[Maggie Freeling]

Up and Vanish.

[Payne Lindsay]

Weekly is released every Wednesday and brought to you absolutely free, but for one week early access and ad free listening. Subscribe to Tenderfoot plus at tenderfootplus.com or on Apple Podcasts if you're already a subscriber. Thank you for your support.

[Maggie Freeling]

This podcast discusses mature and sensitive content, including descriptions of violence that may be triggering for some audiences. Listener discretion is advised. Hey y'. All. Welcome to another episode of up and Vanish Weekly. I'm Maggie Freeling. Today I am super excited about the case we're talking about because it's truly unlike any other we've covered and kind of has a happy ending. Sort of. The man at the center of this bonkers case was found alive and well. That's the happy part. The sort of is the harrowing tale he tells about what happened during his disappearance. Travis vanished one evening while working in a forest. Days later he was found miles away, unkempt and dehydrated, but generally alive and okay. While he was found safe and unharmed, Travis Walton's story raises the possibility that maybe what he and the six others with him say happened is true. Payne looked into Travis's disappearance for his podcast High Strange. So after we lay the groundwork, Payne will join me for a deeper look. There are so many questions about what happened to Travis Walton, and I can't wait to dive in. So here's Rob with the details of what Travis and his logging crew experienced nearly 50 years ago.

[Payne Lindsay]

It's the evening of Wednesday, November 5, 1975, in the Apache Sit Greaves National Forest, located in Snowflake, Arizona. Mike Rogers, a woodcutter, and five of his crew members are frantically driving down a dark forest road. Their truck hugs the road as their speed steadily increases. The men are in complete shock, their hearts pounding. An unsettling feeling is quickly sinking in. They had just witnessed something impossible. The evidence revolves around an incident that.

[Maggie Freeling]

Took place in the Sitgraves National Forest.

[Payne Lindsay]

It was in this location that a young woodcutter named Travis Walton was abducted by a UFO. One of their crew, 22 year old Travis Walton, was gone, vanished without a TR after an alleged encounter with a mysterious otherworldly craft. Over the next five days, search teams combed the rugged terrain looking for any sign of Walton. But with no evidence to support their outlandish claims and no leads on where he may have gone, the team of loggers would soon become suspects in the murder of their crewmate. But eyewitness accounts, lie detector tests, and years of public scrutiny have kept the case in the public eye. Even now, nearly 50 years later, skeptics and believers alike clash on the believability of the men's claims. Whether it was an extraordinary event or some grand hoax, Travis Walton's disappearance has become a permanent part of the UAP lore. And it raises one haunting question. What really happened that strange November night in the Arizona wilderness? From Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta, this is up and Vanish Weekly with Payne, Lindsay and Maggie Freeling.

[Maggie Freeling]

Travis Walton's case is infamous in UAP lore among the likes of Betty and Barney Hill and the Area 51 Roswell incident. And because Travis survived to tell his tale, he has since come forward with his explanation of what happened that evening. The events that this group of men claim to have witnessed in the dense forest of Arizona remains one of the most compelling mysteries in UFO history. Here's how Travis has described the incident in his own words.

[Travis Walton]

As we were jouncing along this little logging trail, I could see a glow through the trees up ahead. Closer we got, the more I was thinking maybe the hunters were camped up there on the ridge. The whole clearing there had this really strange glow to it, sort of a feel. I don't know, maybe there was some kind of electrical charge in the air or something. It just had a really weird vibe to it. We got to a point where we were past the thickest part of the growth and we could see the source of this light. Boom. There it was. It was just unmistakable. It was clearly a metallic disc. Nothing between us and it. Some indistinct glow suddenly becomes this craft hovering there. I yelled, mike, stop the truck. And as soon as he stopped, I threw open the door, thinking this thing would just take off. So I jumped out and started towards it. I just acted on impulse. It definitely alarmed the other guys. They were calling at me to get back in the truck. It was a pale golden color metallic. It's kind of like when you look at a television screen. It's a source of light, but at the same time, the light from the window is reflecting off of the screen. Guys were yelling at me to get back in the truck and swearing at me, let's get the hell out of here. I didn't want to act scared. I was trying to act brave, but I was terrified. The sound it was making was very complex. There was a high pitched frequency and there was a low throbbing, sort of a real super bass note. The frequency there was so wide that it was kind of like off the range of human hearing. The really low notes you sort of felt in your. The sound suddenly got louder when it started to move and I jumped for cover. I just sort of dove down and forward behind the log. But what that did was it brought me that much closer to the craft. And now I'm practically underneath it. They're screaming at me and swearing at me to get back in the truck, stood up to run back to the truck, and as soon as I did, bam, something hit me. Kind of a stunning for electric shock feeling like getting hit by a truck. They saw me fly through the air and land like a dead body. I was almost immediately unconscious.

[Maggie Freeling]

We'll be right back after a quick break, y'.

[Payne Lindsay]

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[Maggie Freeling]

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Vegan, gluten free and kid friendly too. Stock up before they're gone. Get up to 52% off with code TENDERFOOT nutrition never tasted so good and we're back. Travis's account is truly unbelievable. Yet to me it sounds like he's telling the truth, like he's actually recalling something that happened to him. It's so vivid and detailed. And the crew Travis was with all gave the same account. After they saw Travis fly through the air, the crew says they panicked and fled. However, they return later to look for him, and when they returned, Travis was gone. The crew reported the incident to law enforcement who immediately began a search for Travis, but they didn't turn up any initial leads. Later it was discovered that Travis and one of his co workers got into a physical altercation earlier that day and police were now wondering if it got out of hand and the crew was covering something up. The crew faced immediate suspicion and were given polygraph tests. Five of the six loggers passed the polygraph test saying they saw Travis get beamed up into a craft. One of the six was inconclusive. As days went by, there were no signs of Travis, so police started to press the men harder. Did they kill Travis? The men were now facing murder charges. And despite that, what gets me is that all six of them stuck to their stories in the face of murder charges. If this was a hoax, would they really go down for murder? Then, five days later, just as the heat was on them, Travis reappeared in Heber, Arizona, about 12 miles away with a story that would shake the world. Everyone wanted to know what had happened during the five days Travis was missing. Here's what Travis says he remembers.

[Travis Walton]

The next thing I knew, I was waking up. There was just a light above me and the ceiling was so close I figured that maybe I was in the hospital. The light wasn't all that bright, but it hurt my eyes to look at it. I was in a lot of pain. I felt like something was seriously wrong. Everything was blurry. I couldn't focus real good. I could see what I thought were doctors standing over me. As soon as I could focus, I could see these weren't doctors. They were small, hairless, huge eyes. I was terrified. It was straining the limits of my mind to cope with the situation. That instant jolt of fear made me much more fully awake. I felt like I was dying and I associated this pain with seeing them. I tried to roll away from them and rolled off of the table. They had some kind of a device on my chest that fell off. I backed away, screaming, crying. I was thinking of fighting my way past them because there was a door, an opening. It looked like escape to me was the only way out. Before I could put that little plan into action, they suddenly stopped, turned, and went out the door. That was my chance to escape, find a way out. I went in the other direction, just a narrow, cramped hallway. I was having trouble breathing. I don't know whether that was an injury to my chest or lungs or heart or something, or if there was something not appropriate for humans in the interior of that craft, but I was just desperate to find my way out of it. There was a room. I approached some instruments, controls of some kind, thinking that they might open the door. Fooling with these buttons and levers and things didn't seem to do anything at all. But there was a change in light from the door I had come through. And I turned and I saw a man. Looked like a human being, but different and unusual ways too. I ran up to him and started screaming about these creatures. He didn't really react much to what I was seeing. I thought maybe he couldn't hear me because he had a helmet on. He took me by the arm to lead me out of there. Oh, I was only too willing to go. Took me out of the craft. There was a ramp going down. Looked really too steep to be walking on, but it wasn't slippery at all. It was much brighter outside. It had been comparatively dark in the interior of this craft. The whole ceiling lit up with what looked like sunlight coming through a lot cooler. Wasn't as hot. I tried to look around a little bit. There were some other disc shaped metallic craft of a different configuration, more rounded. But mainly I was very concerned with where I was being taken. This room that we were in was huge. It was real High ceilings and very airy and empty. But he took me through some doors and down a hallway into another room. And here were some people dressed like him, except without the helmets. So I'm thinking, finally somebody can tell me what's going on. So I start begging for answers, demanding answers. Was still not getting any response, which really set off the alarm bells. They were trying to get me to lay down on this table there and I started to resist. I was still very weak. I was feeling real shaky and wounded. They didn't have that much trouble getting me down in spite of my adrenaline from fear, just screaming and fighting. They seemed much stronger than me. They overpowered me and put me on that table and one of them put a mask over my face and I tried to get it off immediately. Before I could, I blacked out.

[Maggie Freeling]

Travis says he doesn't remember anything after he blacked out to when he gained consciousness walking down a highway five days later. Travis says he made his way to a payphone where he called his family. His brother then raced to the now famous Heber payphone where he found Travis disoriented, malnourished and dehydrated with 5 days growth of beard. Aside from thinking he had only been gone a few hours, Travis was alive and generally okay. He says the reason for this is because he was kept alive by the ETs who he believes were actually taking care of him. They weren't trying to hurt him. He says he was mortally wounded when the UAP came down on top of him. He thinks they didn't realize it. So when he was injured, the ETs took him in, kept him alive, healed him, and then released him. Travis explains that some of these ETs were human or looked humanoid now. Side note, in alien lore there are different races, just like humans and animal species. And some look like humans, including the Syrians or Venusians. Anyway, over the years, many have wondered if Travis's account was a genuine abduction, a psychotic break, or an elaborate hoax. Skeptics have pointed to the inconsistencies in the cruise statements, lack of concern from the family, and even financial motivations behind their claims. One theory is that the men needed more time to finish the job they were contracted to do. Failing to finish the job on time could lead to hefty fines and disqualification from future contracts. The only way they could be excused for a late job was listed in a, quote, act of God clause in their contract stating, quote, unforeseeable circumstances. Some speculate that the men faked the abduction in order to extend the contract. An alien abduction, to me, is a pretty good unforeseeable circumstance to further this. Others point out that during an interview, Travis's brother revealed that he, Travis, and their mother were UFO buffs and always wanted the opportunity to go aboard a ufo. Some say maybe this was his chance to tell this tale and get some notoriety. And, well, Travis definitely did. The National Enquirer awarded Travis and the crew a $5,000 prize for the best UFO case of the year. Three years later, in 1978, Travis wrote the book the Walton Experience, which became the inspiration for the 1993 movie Fire in the Sky. But despite intense scrutiny, the six crew members maintained that what they saw that evening in the forest was real and that Travis endured something beyond human comprehension. And today, there is much more room for debate in that area than there was 50 years ago. If you listened to the Valentich episode, you heard a bit about recent pushes for disclosure. In 2021, the Director of US National Intelligence released a report concluding there are 144 UAP incidents that our government ultimately cannot explain what happened or what was seen. And they called for further investigation and analysis. The following year, members of the United States House Intelligence Subcommittee on Counterterrorism, Counterintelligence, and Counter Proliferation held congressional hearings to discuss military reports of UAPs. It was the first public US congressional hearing on this topic in over 50 years. Top military officials testified about their own encounters, as well as knowledge of clandestine government, UAP, and ET recovery programs. Payne was at this hearing, and he has also looked into Travis Walton's disappearance. In fact, Payne met Travis and sat down with him for his podcast, High Strange. Payne pressed Travis on what really happened that night and the validity of his claims as he looked into the broader UAP phenomenon. When we come back from the break, we'll bring you my conversation with Payne. Hi, I'm Kristen Bell, and if you know my husband, Dax, then you also know he loves shopping for a car. Selling a car, not so much.

[Payne Lindsay]

We're really doing this, huh?

[Maggie Freeling]

Thankfully, Carvana makes it easy. Answer a few questions, put in your VIN or license, and done. We sold ours in minutes this morning and they'll come pick it up and pay us this afternoon.

[Travis Walton]

Bye bye, Truckee.

[Maggie Freeling]

Of course, we kept the favorite.

[Travis Walton]

Hello, other Truckee.

[Maggie Freeling]

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[Payne Lindsay]

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[Maggie Freeling]

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[Payne Lindsay]

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[Maggie Freeling]

And now, here's John with this week's critical missing case.

[Payne Lindsay]

Today's case comes to us from Clayco News. According to the site, the Hammond Police Department is seeking help locating a woman who was last seen on Sunday, August 24, 2025. The report states that at 11:40am 79 year old Dorothy Harris disappeared from Hammond, Indiana, roughly 150 miles northwest of Indianapolis. No details are given, but the report does state that she's believed to be in extreme danger and may require medical assistance. Dorothy is described as 5 foot 7 inches tall, 120 pounds with gray hair and brown brown eyes. She was last seen wearing a zebra print scarf, black sweatshirt, black pants and black tennis shoes with sparkles. Listeners, we need your help spreading the word about Dorothy Harris.

[Maggie Freeling]

You can check out the up and.

[Payne Lindsay]

Vanished Weekly Instagram page at UAV weekly to see a picture of Dorothy and to share our post for more visibility. And lastly, if you've seen Dorothy or if you know any information about where she could be, please contact the Hammond Police Department at 219-852-6357.

[Maggie Freeling]

All right, we're back. Payne, I'm super excited to have you here to talk about Travis because when we first conceived of up and Vanished Weekly, actually you came to me and said, do you want to do a podcast with me? And I was like of course I do. And I really thought it was going to be about UAPS and Etsy and it was not. But I do get to talk about it a little. So I'm stoked to be talking about Travis today. And I want to ask you, why did you branch out into UAPs and alien encounters that for many listeners, might be really counter to a missing person investigation.

[Payne Lindsay]

I grew up watching Unsolved Mysteries. I like a. A good mystery. I'm always curious. And in so many ways, the entire alien UFO myth is just like one of the biggest unsolved mysteries out there. It's persisted for a long time. You know, I feel like if there's nothing going on at all, then it should have died down by now, and I find that interesting. And so I just. With high Strange, I took the same true crime approach from an investigative standpoint and just focused on UFOs.

[Maggie Freeling]

When you started High Strange, were you a believer? And I guess the second part to that is, are you a believer now?

[Payne Lindsay]

Yeah, I mean, I always wanted to believe. You know, I want to believe, but there's also a rational, logical part of my brain that says, hey, we're pretty small in this universe, and we only learn how much bigger and older the entire universe is. We are just a speck. And so, I mean, really, like, statistically, it's mathematically near impossible that we're the only intelligent life in the universe. The real question is, has intelligent life, ET life, ever visited Earth? Right.

[Maggie Freeling]

And do you? Do you believe so?

[Payne Lindsay]

I think so. I don't think it happens a lot or all the time. I think there's definitely hoaxes over the years, there's been misidentifications of stuff, but I don't think that every single story ever is just somebody's misremembering or mistaking something for something else. I do think that maybe it's 1% or less, but there is a percentage of the stories that you hear that are truly otherworldly.

[Maggie Freeling]

I think very often I've heard podcasters be like, okay, so let's list off all the possibilities. And UFO is always listed, and then it's just checked off right away. Like, ETS are always like, that didn't happen. But with a case like Travis's, it's almost like that is actually the only explanation for what could have happened.

[Payne Lindsay]

Yeah, I like this case because trying to explain it anyway at all is hard. And so no matter what we're looking at, the explanation is something strange and out of the ordinary.

[Maggie Freeling]

Are there cases that you've covered that you're like, yeah, I think this happened. Like, I know of some of them, like the STEVENSVILLE 1, I 100% believe something happened. You know, same thing with the South Africa one. Like, are there cases that you're like.

[Payne Lindsay]

Yeah, yeah, I mean, definitely. I find the older cases more fascinating. I mean, really ones in, like, the 80s and earlier today, everything is so easily faked. And, you know, you don't know if it's AI or whatever, but, you know, if. If Kodak has a print and they can verify that this is a real unadultered image of something, you have a true anomaly there. And so there's some really, you know, strange photos from, you know, all the way back to the 50s, 60s, where, you know, all these years later, we still can't rationally explain what it is, and it's not Photoshopped because it didn't exist. And so I find some of these stories that are well documented back in the day the most interesting, because I feel like if you want to solve this mystery, if you want to figure out what's real and what's not, that's the best place to start, because I think you're going to have more solid facts to go off of. Strangely enough, even if it's been decades, there's not many stories out there in the world in history, at least in modern times, of somebody genuinely going missing. And the explanation is that a UFO abducted them. That's pretty insane sounding like whether that's true or not, that is what is alleged here. And that's crazy for me. I found this the most interesting, because either way, you're looking at a strange, bizarre explanation. Let's just say for a second, play devil's advocate that the whole thing was a hoax. To me, that's also equally as interesting that some random guy decided one day to get five or six other people on board with him to stage this disappearance, genuinely hide for five plus days, come back with a beard and lost weight, and hold true to this story for almost 50 years. I met with Travis Walton, and obviously I went in there with a healthy amount of skepticism. But I will say, just from a human standpoint, talking to him and being across the table from him, it seemed like he genuinely experienced something traumatic. And regardless of what happened, what he was telling me and his story that's, you know, persisted is what he believes happened. So I think no matter what he experienced something like that, that's what he feels like he experienced.

[Maggie Freeling]

It's interesting because it's not even just that he experienced something, whether he convinced himself he did not. Fine, that's one person here. There are five other people who saw the exact same thing, telling the exact same story, passing polygraph tests. That adds an additional layer.

[Payne Lindsay]

Yeah, that's a lot of people. To uphold this secret and. And Also, I mean, think about it. It's 1975 or this tiny town in Arizona. If this was all a prank, right? Once you're in the police station and you're being polygraph tested and they're talking about potential murder charges because they think that you are lying and you maybe killed Travis, wouldn't you just give it up then and be like, okay, sorry, we're kidding. He's over here in, you know, my friend's garage hiding out? No, that didn't happen because they experienced this bizarre beam of light and this craft that they saw. Travis ran towards it, they drove off, and they came back and he was gone.

[Maggie Freeling]

That's.

[Payne Lindsay]

That was the story, and they stuck with it.

[Maggie Freeling]

I mean, I think that's what is particularly credible. Like, you know, we don't, in our fields, rely on polygraphs, but five out of six of them passing a polygraph and the examiner even saying, this is incredible, they're all telling this like, that doesn't happen.

[Payne Lindsay]

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, for what it's worth, that's pretty compelling, you know? And for someone who says, you know, polygraphs are not reliable. Yeah, whatever. I mean, here's the thing. If you're a skeptic and they had failed the polygraph test, I guarantee you'd be using that as your counter argument here. The point is, is that they passed, and it's five plus people who passed, and that is significant when you're trying to figure out if they're telling the truth or not.

[Maggie Freeling]

Did you try to debunk his claims at all? Did you go there, like, what did you do when you were researching Travis's case to try and figure out if this happened?

[Payne Lindsay]

Like, this story is just so unbelievable, whether it's true or not, that I knew anyone listening to it would have questions, right? And so I kind of took that approach where I asked the obvious questions, and I just said, you know, what do you say to somebody who doesn't believe you? And he's like, I don't care. He's like, you know, I know what I experienced, and this is true. My job is not to convince you of anything. And it made me think for a second kind of scary thought, like, what if this happened to me? Right? No one would believe me.

[Maggie Freeling]

And then you have everyone, like, gaslighting you as to saying, like, you that didn't happen to you.

[Payne Lindsay]

Especially if I have a UFO podcast. I mean, if this genuinely happened to me, like, actually, that would suck, because no one would believe me.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah, no one would believe you. I say this all the time. Like, I'm a believer, and I don't need to be abducted. I don't need to see that. I don't want to. I don't want to, because I don't want to be put in this situation of being like, guys, this happened.

[Payne Lindsay]

Yeah, that's scary to think about.

[Maggie Freeling]

You know, in the Travis episode, you also go to Area 51. What do you think is there? And I want to preface by saying, you know, you do a great description as a audio producer. I love your description. You tell us there's cameras everywhere, and this is an active base, and there's people coming in and out. And that is something that I wasn't told or heard enough.

[Payne Lindsay]

Oh, yeah, yeah. There's people working there. Whatever they're doing, it's in operation. I don't know if they have alien craft there. I think that what is most likely is no matter what, at some point in time, and maybe still they have been testing advanced aircraft there. At the very least, that is what I think is going on. I mean, at one point in time, the US Government denied that it even existed.

[Maggie Freeling]

You know, I want to dive more into just your thoughts as someone who has taken a deep dive into all this and gone to some of these places. Like, do you believe David Grush, and what do you think the Tic Tac videos are? And what about the Fermi Paradox, where, you know, it's. They exist, but they haven't been here yet. Like, what are we seeing? If they haven't been here, then what are these crafts?

[Payne Lindsay]

David Grush, if you don't know who he is? I mean, he's like a big whistleblower that came out a couple years ago now and testified in front of Congress. And so that's a big deal. It makes you wonder at least, like, he's well spoken, he seems sincere. It seems like no matter what is true, again, just kind of like Travis Walton, this person, David Grusch, seems to believe it is true. What makes it difficult is that he was never firsthand witness to anything in the sense of he didn't work on these craft. He was just made aware of this crash retrieval program and what they've recovered. Somebody told him that. And the question is, were they telling the truth? Were they trying to just, you know, make him sound crazy? I don't know. But at some point you have to say if all these stories are untrue. Well, what is true? Because what's becoming more true by the minute is that we are not alone. And so at what point does this, like, come to a head either way, where, you know, fuck the little green men stories and the Roswell incident, whatever. There's science now. Let's face the music that there's something else going on.

[Maggie Freeling]

If our government had ETs and UAPs, why would they hide that?

[Payne Lindsay]

I mean, the answer is simple. They have nothing to gain by telling you. What do they gain by unboxing some paradigm shifting concept? What does that do for people's religion, right? Does that fit in the Adam and Eve story? I don't know. I don't think so.

[Maggie Freeling]

But is that the government's job, to give a shit?

[Payne Lindsay]

The government's job is to probably keep the peace in some way. You know, that's at least what they try to do, it seems like.

[Maggie Freeling]

That's what I've always heard, that there might be like mass chaos, but like.

[Payne Lindsay]

There'S nothing to gain for them. We feel like we're owed the truth, no matter what it is. Like transparency, because that's, you know, like the democracy we live in. Like, we, we deserve transparency. But if you're someone harboring that secret, you know, I can see why. I'd sit on it too. What am I gaining by letting this cat out of the bag? Nothing. There is zero pros and only cons to go with it. So you might as well just gaslight everyone until you can't anymore. And that could probably go on for a long time, much longer time, to be honest. And now there's new excuses for why shit is fake. You know, like, that's an AI video, that's a drone.

[Maggie Freeling]

What do you think about the Jersey drones? It was really rich that they were trying to say it was Iranian mothership, you know, as like a whistle call to bomb Iran. Like, what do you think they were?

[Payne Lindsay]

The facts are this. People, as in civilians, over several weeks, are seeing these bizarre drones in the sky that look visually like a plane. The lights on it mimic an aircraft, like a commercial plane, but they're smaller. And you have the government, different agencies across the board saying, we don't know what they are. One, why do they not know what they are? Are they telling the truth? What do you mean you don't know what they are? Or are you like, if you're doing some secret military test, why'd you pick New Jersey? You know, like, why'd you pick literally, like one of the most heavy air traffic areas in the country? Unless that was the experiment, right? If that was the goal, it worked. They're like, hey, we just called these drones. And we said, we don't know what they are. And then eventually the story died back.

[Maggie Freeling]

After a short break.

[Payne Lindsay]

Possibility means you have a chance. Passion opens the door to all possibilities.

[Maggie Freeling]

When I feel like anything's possible, I feel kind of giddy. I want to be an astronaut, an artist, be an actress to visit another country.

[Payne Lindsay]

All I need is a backpack and a pair of shoes and I'll find.

[Maggie Freeling]

A way I'm able to do anything I set my mind to.

[Payne Lindsay]

I've never felt like more things are possible than right now. In the right shoes, anything's possible.

[Maggie Freeling]

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[Payne Lindsay]

Hey, listeners, if you have a tip or theories about a case you want to share or a case of interest you'd like to recommend to us, then we want to hear from you. Email us casesenderfoot tv DM us on Instagramavweekly or give us a call at 770-545-6411. You can also join the conversation on our discord at discord. GG upandvanished. Now back to the show.

[Maggie Freeling]

Why does this seem, and I could be wrong, because I don't live in other countries, but why does this seem to be a uniquely American phenomenon?

[Payne Lindsay]

It actually isn't. It seems that way because there's like this Americana 1950s Roswell incident, Area 51 thing. Like all this stuff in sort of like American folklore at this point, Right? And so like the flying saucer, right? That is. A lot of those stories came out of America in the 50s, like the term UFO. But really every country in the world and every military agency in the world has a huge case file of different stories like this with their own evidence. There is arguably some crazier stories in other countries.

[Maggie Freeling]

That Brazil one is pretty crazy.

[Payne Lindsay]

The Brazil one, Right. And some of those government agencies don't keep secrets like we do. And they're just like, hey, look at this shit. And you're like, oh my God, that's crazy. And so I'm like, at some point, not everyone is crazy. Not everyone is mistaking something.

[Maggie Freeling]

If we do make contact, if the average citizen makes contact, how do you think that's going to go down? And what is that going to look like?

[Payne Lindsay]

Like, let's say that we are not alone in the universe, right? And there is other intelligent life out there. That would mean that if, if they're visiting here and we don't and we're sitting here debating on whether or not that's actually true, then they're clearly way, way ahead of us, right? And so that would automatically mean that if they wanted to stay invisible, they absolutely could. So then it's like, okay, well, these stories of, you know, seeing a physical craft or this video, this light, was it an accident? It's like, yes, sometimes shit happens. You know, maybe it's just like it's happening so much that it's just captured sometimes. I think now if aliens are real, they're like, hey guys, they all got iPhones now. Y' all better be careful, you know, because there's more ways to capture this. I think the narrative that we've sort of built in our own pop culture of the flying saucer aliens from Mars is too binary. It's too basic and sort of earth minded, right? It's sort of like our way of interpreting that. And there's probably truth to that. I mean, if you look at space, it's like a. It's a physical space and there's planets and, you know, it goes for light years, right? Like infinitely, it seems. And so it makes you think, okay, maybe there is a deeper explanation for UFOs that is kind of beyond our current realm of understanding in terms of science and our perception of the world. And what I mean by that is. And it's going to sound crazy to some people, but, you know, one of the other unsolved mysteries of our time is anything paranormal, right? I don't mean like hauntings from, you know, your, your dead grandpa or something, or like a haunted doll. I mean, like weird sort of entity things and, you know, stuff moving. I think that there probably is an explanation in there that sort of explains everything to a degree where it's like, you know, that thing you saw was there, but not really there in the sense of maybe it's in some other layer of the universe right on top of us and it just peeked through for a second.

[Maggie Freeling]

So I think the best example that I've seen of an encounter or what the encounter will look like when they reveal themselves is Arrival. I think Arrival is one of the best movies I've ever seen, period. I also think it's one of the best Alien movies because they're not what we conceptualize as human beings. They don't look humanoid. It was. And it's a completely different language that like isn't based on words. It just showed like what we're even thinking of might not even be remotely close to what it is. And I also do think the grays, I think the very humanoid looking ones are us evolved from the future. I believe in that theory. I think it is us that evolved from the future.

[Payne Lindsay]

Disprove that. But like here. Why do you think that? I feel like that's a very human way to think about it. It's like, it's got to be us.

[Maggie Freeling]

My evidence for this is because every believable encounter and Travis Walton may be aside. But like, I'm thinking South Africa with the kids. I'm thinking many of these encounters, the beings radiate some sort of like peaceful energy and they're getting this like peace and harmony and like, don't destroy the planet. Like something's coming through about the Earth. And so that makes me think like it has something to do with don't destroy yourselves, don't destroy the planet. Like you could be doing this and like then you'll be us, these creepy gray aliens. Like, don't do it. I think there's something there I can't.

[Payne Lindsay]

Prove or disprove the. I think it is interesting though, the way people in general think about the alien topic. Are we that important? You know, like, why do we think that the aliens would come see us anyway? What if we're just not that interesting? You know, there could be thousands or millions of other planets just like ours that are a little cooler, you know, I don't know, but I think that it's kind of self important for us to be like, why haven't they shown themselves yet? It's like, well, one, the, the fact that you're pretentious enough to, to say that is, is kind of bizarre.

[Maggie Freeling]

Well, also because we've done nothing but proof that we're a violent species. Like, why would they, you know, if it is, if it does go down like a rival, why would they?

[Payne Lindsay]

I think that also, I mean, if aliens exist and you know, we're sitting here debating on whether or not they even exist, then they're clearly very advanced and they could absolutely destroy us if they wanted to, but I look at it like, you know, what if this is like a nature preserve, you know, like the Okefenokee Swamp in, like, Florida or something, right? It's like, okay, there's like, gators running wild down there, and we just let them be, right? Don't mess them up. Like, let them be in their own little ecosystem. We could be the same thing where it's like, you know, we could kill those alligators, but that'd be messed up, you know, so we're just not going to do that.

[Maggie Freeling]

Every now and then they need to, like, intervene, keep us in line, or.

[Payne Lindsay]

Just wake us up. Like, let's throw a UFO in there and get the news cycle going again. You know, the UFO narrative is so exhausting. You know, it gets momentum, then it dies. It gets momentum again. I think the general public, and me included, gets burned out by it. Most people I've met, especially younger people, they're like, yeah, you know, we're not alone. I don't know what's true exactly, but they're not shocked to think that there's aliens or something in general. And I think that that is across the board with the younger generation who are growing up in a world where that's not as crazy anymore. So hopefully in our lifetime, that sort of tilts the scale a little bit in favor of, you know, genuine transparency. If there's something to be transparent about, I think one of these days it's just gonna. There's gonna be something undeniable that happens. I wish it happened earlier, because now everything can be faked, right? Like, literally, you would have to see this with your own eyes, right? I feel like that is what it would take for a lot of people to be convinced of anything, and that's fair. I could say the same for myself, really. You have to. Like, seeing is believing. If you see that craft and it's doing things that are unfamiliar to everything you've ever seen, you just know instinctually that that's not right or that's. That's foreign, as in, like, not from Earth. I think that's what it would take for a lot of people to be convinced that we're not alone, or the discovery of some planet that just definitively has life on it, which, I mean, we're damn near close to that, too.

[Maggie Freeling]

Is there going to be more high Strange, because I'm dying for more.

[Payne Lindsay]

I feel like I've talked about it forever, saying, there's going to be more, it's going to be more. I've meant it every time. We've been working on it for a long time now. We have over a dozen or so new interviews, and obviously we're going to be covering, you know, all this happened in the news in terms of whistleblowers and all this stuff in Congress, and it's a lot. Yeah, I'm super excited. I think it's coming this year on this side of the year, but it'll be absolutely worth the wait. And there's some really badass stories in there.

[Maggie Freeling]

Whatever you believe about Travis Walton's disappearance, one truth remains. The mystery of his disappearance has never truly gone away. And aside from causing people to question what they believe about life outside of Earth, Travis's case forced law enforcement to grapple with an unexplained disappearance, brought polygraph tests into the center of public debate, and turned an ordinary group of loggers into central figures in a cultural phenomenon that would influence countless UAP sightings to come. Travis says he understands his account is unbelievable.

[Travis Walton]

You know, to each his own. People have all kinds of theories and beliefs, beliefs, anything in today's world, all kinds of contending points of view and theories and stuff, everything. It all comes down to facts and reasoning. Are your facts true and complete, and is your reasoning valid? Failure to prove is not disproof. If you have something, lay it out there. Invite examination.

[Maggie Freeling]

For 50 years, the buzz surrounding Travis's disappearance has outlasted shifting scientific opinions, government secrecy, and the relentless march of time. Travis believes his account is a litmus test for all of us here on Earth.

[Travis Walton]

How do you know what's true? How do you evaluate claims? What's a fair examination of the evidence? You don't begin with a conclusion. You gather the evidence first. The fascination sometimes hinges on the fact that people think of this as some nightmare. Accept the reality of the phenomenon, but let's set aside the idea that it's something to be afraid of.

[Maggie Freeling]

Y', all, thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of up and Vanish Weekly. Be sure to tune in next week as we dig into another new case. Until next time.

[Payne Lindsay]

Up and Vanish Weekly is a production of Tenderfoot TV in association with Odyssey. Your hosts are Maggie Freeling and myself, Payne Lindsay. The show is written by Maggie Freeling, myself and John Street. Executive producers are Donald Albright and myself. Lead producer is John Street. Additional production by Meredith Steadman and Mike Rooney. Research for the series by Jamie Albright, Celicia Stanton and Carolyn Tallmadge. Edit and mix by Dylan Harrington and Sean Nurney Supervising producer is Tracy Kaplan, artwork by Byron McCoy, original music by makeup and vanity set. Special thanks to Oren Rosenbaum and the team at uta, Beck Media and Marketing and the Nord Group. For more podcasts like up and Vanish weekly, search Tenderfoot TV on your favorite podcast app or visit us at Tenderfoot TV. Thanks for listening. For a limited time at McDonald's, get a Big Mac Extra Value meal for $8. That means two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun, and medium fries and a drink. We may need to change that jingle. Prices and participation may vary.

[Maggie Freeling]

Listen if you love true crime but you find yourself wanting more than just the surface, like those little details you normally end up googling the angles that don't make the headlines, then you should check out Seriously with Annie Elise. Annie covers everything from big updates and cases you've been following, like the Idaho four now that the gag was orders been lifted to deep dives into cases you might not have even heard of yet. She unpacks the timelines, the connections, the wait, what moments, and even dives into topics like cults and breaking news, including the recent Tennessee Quadruple homicide where a baby was found abandoned on a stranger's lawn. With over a million weekly downloads across 11 countries, Annie has a way of telling these stories, like a friend who's already gone down every rabbit hole so you can just hit play and follow along. So if you've been looking for someone to talk true crime with and a community just as into it as you are, this is where you need to be. New episodes of Seriously drop every Monday and Thursday. Wherever you get your podcast.