UNRESOLVED: Kathleen Peterson

Summary

Up and Vanished Weekly: UNRESOLVED – Kathleen Peterson

Release Date: April 2, 2025

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Introduction

In this gripping episode of Up and Vanished Weekly, hosts Payne Lindsay and Maggie Freeling explore the enigmatic and polarizing case of Kathleen Peterson. Joining them is Meredith Steadman from the Tenderfoot team, who provides expert insights into the complex circumstances surrounding Kathleen's mysterious death and the subsequent trial of her husband, Michael Peterson.

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Case Background

On the night of December 9, 2001, in suburban North Carolina, Kathleen Peterson, a 48-year-old telecommunications executive, was found dead at the bottom of a narrow staircase in her Durham home. Her husband, Michael Peterson, a former Marine turned author and professor, reported discovering her unconscious and bleeding after what he described as an accidental fall down the stairs. However, the nature of the scene immediately raised suspicions.

Maggie Freeling [07:09]: “The De La Strade documentary is the best true crime documentary. In fact, one of the best documentaries I have ever seen.”

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Initial Investigation and Charges

The investigation quickly soured on Michael's account. An autopsy revealed multiple deep lacerations to Kathleen's head, which the coroner deemed inconsistent with a fall, suggesting she may have been bludgeoned to death. Blood spatter expert Duane Deaver testified that the patterns indicated foul play, bolstering the prosecution's case that Michael Peterson was responsible for Kathleen's death.

Payne Lindsay [14:07]: “He could have been drinking that much. It’s possible. I’ve just always thought it was strange that in this scenario...”

As evidence mounted against him, Michael was indicted on December 20, 2001. The prosecution painted a picture of a seemingly perfect couple whose facade masked underlying tensions and secrets.

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Trial and Conviction

The trial was highly publicized and emotionally charged. Prosecution unveiled emails suggesting Michael was in communication with a male escort, positing this as a potential motive for murder. Initially, the Peterson children supported their father, but over time, family members like Kathleen's sister Caitlyn began to turn against Michael, influenced by the emerging evidence.

Maggie Freeling [27:24]: “I think that's really interesting, too. In the documentary, when the case starts being investigated, all the kids are on his side. Then by the time the trial really happens, Caitlyn is the first one that switches sides.”

Despite lacking a clear motive initially, the prosecution argued that the financial strains and Michael's alleged infidelities provided sufficient grounds for his culpability. In a controversial verdict, Michael Peterson was found guilty of first-degree murder and sentenced to life without parole.

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Appeals and New Evidence

Years later, significant doubts arose about the integrity of the original trial. In 2010, it was revealed that blood spatter expert Duane Deaver had fabricated portions of his testimony, misrepresenting his experience and the scientific basis of his analysis. This revelation cast serious doubt on the prosecution's case, leading to a motion for a new trial.

Payne Lindsay [42:46]: “I do not think he should have been convicted in the first trial. I think those jurors were wrong. I think there was reasonable doubt enough.”

In 2011, Michael was granted a new trial and eventually took an Alford plea in 2017. This legal maneuver allowed him to maintain his innocence while acknowledging that the prosecution had enough evidence to secure a conviction, resulting in his release on time served.

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The Controversial Owl Theory

One of the most bizarre and debated aspects of the Kathleen Peterson case is the alternate theory suggesting she was killed by a barred owl. Proposed by a neighbor attorney, the theory posits that Kathleen was attacked by an owl while checking Christmas decorations, resulting in the lacerations that led to her death.

Maggie Freeling [53:44]: “I was attacked by an owl at the end of my driveway...”

Meredith Steadman shares a personal anecdote about being attacked by a barred owl, lending a peculiar credibility to the theory. However, Payne remains skeptical, underscoring the lack of concrete evidence supporting this claim.

Payne Lindsay [55:35]: “I am floored right now. That you were fucking attacked by an owl?”

Despite the intriguing nature of the owl theory, it remains highly controversial and unproven, contributing to the enduring mystery surrounding Kathleen's death.

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Conclusion and Reflections

The Kathleen Peterson case exemplifies the complexities and potential miscarriages within the criminal justice system. Payne and Maggie reflect on the unresolved questions and the impact of flawed forensic evidence on Michael Peterson's conviction. They emphasize the importance of maintaining reasonable doubt and the critical role of robust evidence in ensuring justice.

Maggie Freeling [48:34]: “I don't think you can convict Michael Peterson.”

As the hosts conclude, they honor Kathleen's memory and acknowledge the profound effect her death has had on her family, highlighting the enduring pain and unresolved nature of the case.

Payne Lindsay [61:05]: “I just think it's weird...”

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Maggie Freeling [07:09]: “The De La Strade documentary is the best true crime documentary. In fact, one of the best documentaries I have ever seen.”

• Payne Lindsay [14:07]: “He could have been drinking that much. It’s possible. I’ve just always thought it was strange that in this scenario...”

• Maggie Freeling [53:44]: “I was attacked by an owl at the end of my driveway...”

• Payne Lindsay [55:35]: “I am floored right now. That you were fucking attacked by an owl?”

• Maggie Freeling [48:34]: “I don't think you can convict Michael Peterson.”

• Payne Lindsay [61:05]: “I just think it's weird...”

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Final Thoughts

The Kathleen Peterson case remains a subject of intense debate and speculation. With lingering doubts about the original conviction and the emergence of alternative theories like the owl attack, the episode underscores the challenges of seeking truth in complex and emotionally charged cases. Up and Vanished Weekly leaves listeners pondering the unresolved mysteries and the quest for justice in Kathleen Peterson's tragic story.

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Transcript

[Maggie Freeling]

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[Payne Lindsay]

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[Meredith Steadman]

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[Payne Lindsay]

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[Maggie Freeling]

Up and.

[Payne Lindsay]

Vanish weekly is released every Wednesday and brought to you absolutely free, but for one week early access and ad free listening. Subscribe to Tenderfoot plus at tenderfootplus.com or on Apple Podcasts if you're already a subscriber. Thank you for your Support this podcast discusses mature and sensitive content, including descriptions of violence that may be triggering for some audiences. Listener discretion is advised.

[Meredith Steadman]

It's 2:40am on Sunday, Dec. 9, 2001, in suburban North Carolina. At the Durham County Dispatch center, an operator picks up the line and is immediately connected to a frantic caller.

[Payne Lindsay]

Durham911, where's your emergency?

[Meredith Steadman]

1810 Cedar street, please.

[Payne Lindsay]

What's wrong?

[Maggie Freeling]

My wife had an accident.

[Meredith Steadman]

She's still breathing. As the dispatcher sends help, she attempts to gather more information from the caller, who explains his wife has fallen down the stairs. Minutes later, paramedics arrive at the residence situated in the upscale Forest Hills neighborhood, which lies on the outskirts of Durham. Upon entering the home, they find a woman, 48 year old Kathleen Peterson, at the bottom of a narrow staircase, unconscious and lying in a large pool of blood. Kathleen's husband, Michael, explains to first responders that she was breathing moments earlier, but Kathleen is now unresponsive. Attempts to resuscitate her are unsuccessful. Faced with the stinging reality that his wife has suddenly died, Michael is left to grapple with how something like this could ever happen. It's the same question that many have wondered for the past two decades. Over the years, the death of Kathleen Peterson has garnered international attention. The case has been the subject of documentaries and countless other news coverage. It's become characterized by a highly publicized investigation, two controversial trials, and an alleged link to a second eerie death. It's a highly polarizing case that elicits strong opinions. Yet despite a myriad of evidence, one question still remains. What happened to Kathleen Peterson?

[Maggie Freeling]

Foreign.

[Meredith Steadman]

This is up and Vanish Weekly with Payne Lindsay and Maggie Freeling.

[Payne Lindsay]

Hey y'all. Welcome back to up and Vanish Weekly. I'm your host, Maggie Freeling. Today is a case that is infamous in true crime, one of the first cases that brought us in depth documentary filmmaking on trials, innocence work, junk science, and unusual culprits. Today we're talking about the mysterious death of Kathleen Peterson and the trial of her husband, Michael Peterson. This is a really polarizing case that has been the subject of a lot of media coverage. And I have an expert on today who could tell us a bit about this unusual suspect because she has firsthand experience. So joining me to talk about this case is Meredith Steadman from the Tenderfoot team. Meredith, hello. Hello.

[Maggie Freeling]

Hello, Maggie.

[Payne Lindsay]

I had asked you for another episode what you, you know, think about all the time. And actually you mentioned this case is one of those.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yes, this is one of those cases. For me. There's like three of them and this is One of them.

[Payne Lindsay]

What is it about this case that you think about all the time?

[Maggie Freeling]

To be honest? Like you said, it's so polarizing. It is so one way or the other. It's fascinating in that way. And also, I have to say, I think the Staircase, the De La Strade documentary is the best true crime documentary. In fact, one of the best documentaries I have ever seen.

[Payne Lindsay]

They were basically, like, embedded with the defense team.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yes, embedded with. And sometimes even the other side, they got like. That's what's so incredible about it. They're documenting every part of this gruesome, tragic, complex case in a really personal way. They're with the family of Michael Peterson. Everything. Like, then they're with the sisters of Kathleen Peterson, and they spend all this time with all these people, like little flies on the wall. And I think it's the closest I've ever gotten to feeling like what this would feel like if it happened in my family.

[Payne Lindsay]

You know, it's so interesting because so many people are like, look at how arrogant he is to give that. But I'm also like, if he is innocent, what is he? He's not hiding anything. So he's like, of, come, come watch my entire defense strategy. I'm not hiding anything.

[Maggie Freeling]

It's. It's because I think that can go both ways. And I know we're gonna get into this, and I'm not gonna take any hard stances right now, but I think you can say he's not hiding anything. And then I think you can also say there's a pattern of people that have committed crimes, particularly violent crimes, being kind of obsessed with the crime itself, and then the way that it's litigated or investigated afterwards. So I think that's what made the documentary so fascinating, because a lot of people are like, isn't this something that criminals do? Isn't this something that murderers do? They're like, kind of. They go back to the scene of the crime, or they. They want to hype up the media.

[Payne Lindsay]

Disgusting. I didn't think about it like that.

[Maggie Freeling]

I do think the part of the reason this case is so complicated is because there are so many, like, points presented and counterpoints presented for every single thing. And some of it seems like bad science. And that's why you should watch the documentary, because you get to see some bad science, and then you also get to see some good points. And I think that's when it comes down to, man, is he, like, that unlucky?

[Payne Lindsay]

This case is one of those where it's like, you know when, when some people talk about innocence or guilt, they're like, well, if he's guilty or if he's innocent, then he must be the unluckiest guy on the planet. And like, looking at this case, yeah, he really might be the unluckiest guy on the planet. If you believe he's innocent, right?

[Maggie Freeling]

If you believe he's innocent, then it like, you can't write this any better than this is like a David Fincher movie. This is Gone Girl, you know, like, it's so twisted.

[Payne Lindsay]

Yeah, absolutely. There's a lot of layers to this case. There's so much to talk about. We're gonna try to get to as much as we can. But one of the things that has really been put under the microscope in the wake of Kathleen's death is her relationship with Michael and the dynamics around the Peterson family. So let's dig more into that. Here's Rob with more.

[Meredith Steadman]

Kathleen and Michael Peterson seemed to have a picture perfect life. Kathleen was an accomplished telecommunications executive, known for her intelligence, kindness and dedication to her family and career. Michael was a former Marine who had served in Vietnam. After his time in the service, he began a career in writing, where he evolved into a well respected writer and professor. When the couple met, they were both fresh off the heels of previous marriages. Kathleen and her first husband shared one daughter together and Michael was raising his two biological sons along with two girls he and his first wife had adopted after the girl's mother, a family friend, had died. When Kathleen and Michael's girls developed a friendship, the two started to spend more time together and they soon fell in love. In 1992, they moved their combined family into a 14 room, 9, 500 square foot home in a wealthy neighborhood. Five years later, the couple officially married. Life with a blended family had its challenges, but they were determined to make it work. The family seemed to have a wholesome life and were known to be very involved in social circles and their community. For years, Kathleen and Michael worked hard to build a fulfilled life marked by successes and happiness, which continued up until Kathleen's unexpected death. The evening of December 9, 2001, appeared to be a routine evening for the Petersons. With the Christmas season in full swing and their children away at college, Kathleen and Michael were making the most of the weeks before the holidays. That Sunday night, Kathleen made dinner and she and Michael watched a movie together. Sometime between 11pm and midnight, the couple made their way to the pool deck where they enjoyed some wine. At some point, Michael says that Kathleen headed to bed to prepare for a Busy week at work. Michael stayed outside by the pool and eventually dozed off. Sometime around 2:40am Michael was stirred awake and made his way inside, where he found Kathleen lying at the bottom of the stairs, unconscious. In his call to authorities, Michael appeared emotionally distraught by what he saw, telling authorities that he believed Kathleen had fallen down the stairs. But the position of Kathleen's body and the amount of blood present quickly raised suspicions. As authorities began to process the scene, a perplexing question came into focus. Was Michael's theory of an accidental fall even plausible?

[Payne Lindsay]

Okay, Meredith, so let's talk about all of this from the surface. They seem to have a pretty typical life from the outside. Kathleen and Michael don't have any kids of their own. They just have this huge family blended together.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah.

[Payne Lindsay]

And everyone from the outside says it's great. He's a writer, she's an executive. They're very successful.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah. Their home is like, I remember them showing, like, the aerial views. And it's just like they seem to have an idyllic North Carolina life. Right. Like they're these, like, highly academic, professional, esteemed people. Like they've adopted. You know, they have these really bright children. And yeah, this big house. Feels like they have money. Seems like the perfect life.

[Payne Lindsay]

But unfortunately, their seemingly picture perfect life faded away when Kathleen died. So let's dig into those details around her death.

[Maggie Freeling]

So I have always felt the events presented from that night by Michael Peterson have seemed strange to me. I just, I don't believe that someone falls asleep comfortably unless they're drinking a lot.

[Payne Lindsay]

And he could have.

[Maggie Freeling]

He could have. He could have been, like, drinking that much. It's possible. I've just always thought it was strange that in this scenario, the two of them watched a movie together, went outside to drink wine by the pool, which is something my mom does after dinner, has a glass of wine on, like the deck or something, but then that he fell asleep and she, like, left, you know, she just said, yeah, okay, that's fine, and went inside. And then hours pass and then he wakes up to this bloody scene. That, to me, is just extremely unlikely. Is it grounds for guilt? Not necessarily, but it is extremely unlikely to me. To me, it sounds like a little bit like someone who wanted to say that they were outside during something happening inside so that no one could say, why didn't you hear it? I think if I were a jury member, I'd say, hmm, sounds a little convenient that you were outside for hours and couldn't have heard anything, that you're.

[Payne Lindsay]

Outside sleeping in the cold for two hours?

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, honestly, like, it just sounds kind of like a stretch and like you wanted to be separate from the room where it happened.

[Payne Lindsay]

What do you make of the 911 call?

[Maggie Freeling]

She's still being. Please come.

[Payne Lindsay]

Is she conscious? What?

[Meredith Steadman]

Is she conscious?

[Payne Lindsay]

No, she's not conscious.

[Meredith Steadman]

Okay.

[Payne Lindsay]

How many stairs did you fall down?

[Meredith Steadman]

How many stairs?

[Payne Lindsay]

How many stairs?

[Meredith Steadman]

Calm down, sir. Calm down. No. 15, 20, I don't know. Please get somebody here right away, please. Okay, somebody's dispatching the ambulance while I ask you questions.

[Maggie Freeling]

It's off of. It's a force field.

[Payne Lindsay]

Okay.

[Maggie Freeling]

Please, please.

[Payne Lindsay]

I hear that, and I'm like, he's very frantic, super distressed.

[Maggie Freeling]

It's actually really, like, hard to listen to.

[Payne Lindsay]

I feel like I might have a similar reaction.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah, I do. That's honestly why I feel like that. The 911 calls and people picking them apart I think is kind of a weak argument in most cases because a lot of people would either say, could someone act that well if they, you know, did something. Here's the thing. I think you could be distressed either way.

[Payne Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Maggie Freeling]

Like, if this was a heat of the moment passion thing that Michael Peterson did commit, he might be just as distressed. Yeah.

[Payne Lindsay]

Your adrenaline's pumping.

[Maggie Freeling]

Like, she's asking questions and he's saying, huh, what? Like, over it. Which is actually sounds very distressed. I actually kind of would love.

[Payne Lindsay]

I feel like I would be, like. I'd be like, what are you asking?

[Maggie Freeling]

Like, what are you asking?

[Payne Lindsay]

Get someone. Someone here. Just get someone here.

[Maggie Freeling]

I could totally see it.

[Payne Lindsay]

There's a question over how long Kathleen was laying at the bottom of the stairs before he called 91 1. And if he had waited.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah. So what I remember is that what was found out at the scene of the crime is that the blood had already dried to the extent that they realized the call he placed and the time that she, quote, unquote, fell, there had to have been a couple hours in between for the blood to be that dry. So that's what I think is actually more interesting about the call. And, like. And maybe he, you know, let's say he stumbled upon it. Was that freaked out, called immediately. Maybe. But I do think that's convenient with the two hours that he fell asleep outside. He, quote, fell asleep outside.

[Payne Lindsay]

Our investigation continues after a quick break. Do you say data or data? My family says data, and I've noticed it's a word we use a lot.

[Maggie Freeling]

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[Maggie Freeling]

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[Payne Lindsay]

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[Meredith Steadman]

Pocket.

[Payne Lindsay]

Find your [e-mail] that's usenourish.com all right, back to the case. So let's talk about the blood. When the police got there, there was blood everywhere. A huge pool of blood. It was sprayed up the wall, drops on the walkway outside. It's smeared on the front door. There's blood on the cabinet and counter besides an open wine bottle and two wine glasses. So when the first responders arrive, the wine bottle and glasses are inside. And Michael's story was that they were outside drinking.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yes. And so that's another thing that makes me doubt that they ever went outside to drink. I think they were inside. I personally think they were inside the whole time. However. Okay, maybe you could have brought them inside. Then he's like, kathleen, Kathleen. And then found her on this staircase.

[Payne Lindsay]

That's what I think could happen.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yes. And if you've ever seen the pictures of the house, the staircase is kind of like tucked away.

[Payne Lindsay]

This is a back stair. This is not the main staircase. This is like a, like a quote, like servant staircase into the kitchen.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah. And it's like it's got a, like a little alcove and she was found at the bottom of that. So maybe. But I think it would be pretty. It's again, it's near the kitchen. You would think that, like, if you walked in with the glasses, they would almost be shattered on the floor as soon as you saw Kathleen, like, you know, she's not that far away from the kitchen where she was found.

[Payne Lindsay]

Right. Again, there's blood sprayed around the kitchen, the way she's laying at the bottom of the stairs. A lot of people have questioned this as well. The position that Kathleen is resting in. What do you make of this? I mean, he was holding her when first responders arrived, so he probably moved her.

[Maggie Freeling]

It doesn't. She's like face up, kind of like one head on the bottom step. And it doesn't really look like someone who walked up the stairs and then fell backward or even forward. Exactly. It doesn't really look like what you'd expect as soon as you hear about someone fell down the stairs. But I guess some people have made the case that she fell and kind of like put her own body in that position. Or maybe Michael turned her over and was holding her. But if she weren't to be touched, I don't believe that someone fell and landed in that position because her legs are out the opposite way. Like they're into the room, not falling backwards, legs up the stairs. Yeah.

[Payne Lindsay]

Totally agree. There is a lot that doesn't make sense about this case, and authorities agreed. We can really get the sense that from the beginning they had their suspicions about Michael's take on what happened. Here's Rob with more.

[Meredith Steadman]

From the time lead investigator Art Holland and his team with the Durham Police Department arrived at the Petersons home, they worked to make sense of the horrific picture. In their report, authorities noted the enormous amount of blood pooled on the ground and splattered on the walls and staircase. Drops of blood would also be found on the outside walkway and entry door, as well as on a kitchen cabinet and on the kitchen counter near an open bottle of wine and two wine glasses. The scene was quickly secured, photos were taken, and Michael Peterson gave authorities a detailed statement of what had transpired. But as their investigation continued, investigators believed the evidence told a very different story. The results of an autopsy later revealed multiple lacerations to the back of Kathleen's head, which the coroner believed were inconsistent with a fall. Rather, they allege she may have been bludgeoned to death. Authorities, who already had reservations about Michael's account, were now treating Kathleen's death as a homicide. Michael was indicted on December 20, 2001, and quickly taken into police custody. Despite the accusations of police and potential evidence pointing to foul play, the Peterson Children defended their father's innocence, but things would soon take a sharp downward spiral. At trial, the prosecution argued their case that given the evidence at the home, a simple fall down the stairs could not have caused Kathleen's death. Blood spatter expert Duane Deaver would testify that the blood spatter pattern indicated that Kathleen was murdered, and the state would allege that Michael was the one responsible. Until this point, the question of motive had remained unclear. But during their investigation, authorities uncovered salacious emails that they believed called into question Michael's character and reliability. The prosecution also made a shocking assertion of Michael's possible responsibility for a second mysterious death that had happened years earlier. The watching world looked on with anticipation as the prosecution and defense made their cases before a jury. After a hotly debated trial, Michael Peterson was found guilty for Kathleen's death. But after years behind bars, critical new evidence and an uncanny theory would become the foundation of a renewed push to exonerate a convicted killer. The question now would it hold weight?

[Payne Lindsay]

So he is arrested and he's charged pending trial, and as the prosecution is preparing for trial, they start digging into his life. And we mentioned before, it seemed pretty perfect, pretty idyllic, actually. They found some things that might point otherwise. Kathleen had been stressed about layoffs at her job, so she's worried about job stability. They were under heavy financial strain. Between debt expenses with their 9,000 square foot house, paying for college tuition. Remember, they have five kids, losing money in investments. Michael also had, like, a stint in politics, and he had run for mayor. He lied about being awarded the Purple Heart.

[Maggie Freeling]

I remember that.

[Payne Lindsay]

Yeah, he was in the military, so he lied about winning, being awarded the Purple Heart, and that tarnished their reputation, cost them a lot of friendship. So they were going through a rough patch. It actually was not this perfect, peaceful life that might seem from the outside.

[Maggie Freeling]

I think that the defense, like, really presented, like, the perfect American family look of the Peterson family. And then all these things came out. It kind of, like, peeled that away. Maybe they went a little too hard in that direction originally, and then it was hard to keep it up. And I also think it might be a little curious, like, how well they really did know each other before they got married. You know, their kids were friends. That's how they met and then blended their families. But it seems like there was a lot of secrets and stuff, allegedly big.

[Payne Lindsay]

Secrets, because we actually won't know if this was a secret because Kathleen is not here to tell us whether she knew this. But when authorities started digging into Michael and Kathleen's life, they Found emails. They found Michael's emails showing he'd been talking with men he'd met online. And one email thread showed three months before Kathleen died, Michael and a male escort made arrangements to meet. Allegedly, this fell through. Prosecutors felt this was evidence that they might have been fighting that night. And then Michael killed Kathleen. This was like the bombshell. This is the motive. His life is going to be exposed. She found out. And then Michael says this was not a secret, whether she found these emails or not. He says that she's open to him being bisexual, and it was known to people in the family. Um, this is actually kind of what turned her daughter against him. They were on his side. And then the daughter found out about this Caitlyn, and she kind of turned against Michael.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah, I think that's really interesting, too. In the documentary, when the case starts being investigated, all the kids are on his side. Then by the time the trial really happens, Caitlyn is the first one that switches sides.

[Payne Lindsay]

So when they started the investigation, the medical examiner initially said a fall was possible, but then the autopsy shows multiple deep lacerations. And then a blood pattern expert says this is clear evidence of being bludgeoned, not an accidental fall. And so then he testified to this in court.

[Maggie Freeling]

They did find bruising on her body which was consistent with defensive wounds, which I think, you know, oh, maybe it's because she fell down the stairs. Yes, but I also think you can't ignore that they could also be defensive wounds. But it just had to be quite a fall for the amount of blood, which is, like, pretty darkly, like, sprayed into the corner of the hallway that the stairs go up, and then all of these wounds on her body, and then the way that her body is positioned, I mean, I just. Has anyone ever fallen down the staircase like that ever?

[Payne Lindsay]

This is the big. The biggest reveal of all, I think, that you and I have been waiting to get to. So as they're digging, authorities also get tipped off about the 1985 death of Elizabeth Liz Ratliff and the potential link to Michael. So this is the woman, Liz Ratliff, whose two kids Michael adopted in the 1980s. Michael lived near Frankfurt, Germany, with his first wife, and one night, their friend Liz came over to their house for dinner. Michael drove her home afterwards, and the next morning, the nanny found her dead at the bottom of the stairs. She was wearing snow boots in the house, which a friend found odd. And the autopsy performed at the U.S. military Hospital in Germany, showed that she had a brain hemorrhage and died of natural causes. Now, With Michael's other. Well, with Michael's wife now being found dead at the bottom of the stairs, this seems like too much of a coincidence.

[Maggie Freeling]

The first time I was watching this documentary, I could not believe that Michael Peterson had been the last man to see two different women alive when they were found dead at the bottom of a staircase in a pool of their own blood.

[Payne Lindsay]

It's literally unheard of.

[Maggie Freeling]

I could not believe it.

[Payne Lindsay]

Unless they're the actual killer.

[Maggie Freeling]

I do think it's interesting, though, that in Elizabeth Ratless case, in Liz Ratless case, like, she did have a medical condition. There were some accounts that she had told people in her life that she had been having headaches, like, prior to.

[Payne Lindsay]

Like a week before. She was having very serious headaches.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah. Days before. Was going to schedule with somebody and get checked out soon. I think it's unbelievable. But that one is, like, it's just unclear. And it's unclear what the motive would be.

[Payne Lindsay]

Yeah, he wouldn't have gotten anything. Like, they weren't married. There was no life insurance policies. There was nothing like that. That there would have been a motive for him to kill her. And then he winds up taking her two kids.

[Maggie Freeling]

I mean, and raising them as his own.

[Payne Lindsay]

Raising them as his own. Like, that's a really noble thing to do. And I actually don't. I just. I just find it weird. Like, you would kill her to get her kids.

[Maggie Freeling]

Like, I don't believe that. And Pat, his wife at the time said, like, it wasn't. He was. No, he's innocent. Like, he didn't do anything to Liz. They were good friends. It didn't make any sense. It didn't feel like anyone was actually pointing any fingers at Michael at the time. This only got pointed at Michael when the prosecution was like, hold on. He's been the last person to see two women alive when they're at the bottom of the staircase. That is insane.

[Payne Lindsay]

So she winds up being exhumed in Texas, and they fly her body or they drive, they transport her body all the way back to North Carolina to have her autopsy performed by the same medical examiner who did Kathleen Peterson's autopsy, Deborah Radish. And she finds actually it is a homicide. So the cause of death was changed to homicide. Again, the same medical examiner that said Kathleen Peterson, who fell down the stairs, Homicide. Now this other woman in Michael's life who was. It was ruled an accidental death. Now homicide. And again, there's no blunt force trauma. Like, there is no crushing of the skull, anything like that that would suggest a beating which they're saying happened as the homicide. What do you make of that?

[Maggie Freeling]

She says they're very similar in their autopsies and so therefore homicide. But you also could argue, are they very similar because they're for falling down the stairs? Um, I think what's also interesting is the blood. The amount of blood everyone says is at both scenes is, Is very. I, I just, I don't know enough about falling down the stairs. Like, all her, her friends that were there, like, I think one was the nanny, one was a close friend, maybe one was a family member. They describe, like, cleaning the blood off the walls, taking them, like, hours. And I just am so kind of surprised and shocked that if these are just balls down the stairs, that there is that much blood.

[Payne Lindsay]

So Michael winds up being convicted. A jury unanimously found him guilty of first degree murder, and he's sentenced to life without parole. So he's in prison for eight years, filing appeals, doing his thing, claiming his innocence. And in 2009, the attorneys found what they believe was new evidence that were grounds for a retrial. In 2010, it was revealed that Dwayne Deaver, the blood pattern expert that the prosecution used against Michael, he was not relying on objective science, and he lied about how extensive his experience was. Dwayne Deaver basically was performing junk science. He was, he was not using science to say this is how this happened, that she was beaten over the head. He's not using science. So in 2011, a motion for a new trial was granted. He's released on bond, and he's on house arrest awaiting retrial. However, because Dwayne Deaver was basically impeached, they can't use him. They can't use his faulty flood testing. And at the first trial, they did have a male escort that was in communication with Michael come and testify, but that was not allowed at the second trial. Um, this is one of those things.

[Maggie Freeling]

Where it's like, I wonder why I was inadmissible, though, in the second trial.

[Payne Lindsay]

Because it was probably hearsay. It was probably.

[Maggie Freeling]

It was probably, I guess they were saying, like, this is neither here nor there when it comes to. To this case.

[Payne Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Maggie Freeling]

And it does kind of feel like this wasn't. It's like a non factor unless you had more evidence that they were fighting about this exact thing. The prosecution says it was the motive, but there's not actually any way to prove it's the motive.

[Payne Lindsay]

Right, right. And also something really interesting is prosecutions don't have to give a motive. So, you know, that was something they thought would be like a bonus, but they don't need a motive.

[Maggie Freeling]

Bonus motive.

[Payne Lindsay]

Yeah, bonus motive. Exactly. More of our discussion after a quick break. You're listening to up and Vanish Weekly. I recently found out that you can see a personal dietitian covered by insurance. There's this platform called Nourish that will match you with a dietitian based on.

[Maggie Freeling]

Whatever your concerns are, whether that's weight loss, eating disorders, autoimmune conditions or something else.

[Payne Lindsay]

They're actually a network with major insurance providers, so most patients pay $0 out of pocket. 94% of patients pay $0 out of pocket. Find your [e-mail] that's usenourish.com Spring is.

[Maggie Freeling]

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[Payne Lindsay]

You'D like to recommend to us, then.

[Meredith Steadman]

We want to hear from you.

[Maggie Freeling]

Email us casesnderfoot tv DMUS on Instagram avweekly or give us a call at 770-545-6411. Now here's Kristen Seabe, host of Murder She Told with this week's critical missing case.

[Payne Lindsay]

27 year old Papita Redhair was last seen on March 27, 2020 when her.

[Maggie Freeling]

Mother dropped her off at her boyfriend.

[Payne Lindsay]

Nicholas Kaye's home in Albuquerque, N.M. on April 19.

[Maggie Freeling]

He reported her missing.

[Payne Lindsay]

Pepita's family told the media that Pepita was a victim of domestic violence and that she was beaten several days prior to her disappearance. According to a police report, Nicholas said that he and Pepita were out for a drink on March 27 and got into an argument. He said that she left and that he got a text from her the following day writing that she was with another man. They had met the prior evening. Pepita hasn't been in contact with her.

[Maggie Freeling]

Family or friends since, which is unusual.

[Payne Lindsay]

In 2025, Pepita would be 33 years old. She is native and part of Navajo Nation. She's 5 foot 1 with brown hair and brown eyes and was 140 pounds at the time of her disappearance. Pepita has a beauty mark on her chin and several tattoos including a dinosaur on her right forearm, a koi fish on her left forearm, a butterfly on her shoulder, the word red hair on her leg, and a tattoo of a heart with an arrow on the inside.

[Maggie Freeling]

Of her bottom lip.

[Payne Lindsay]

If you have any information that could bring a resolution solution for Pepita's family, please contact the Albuquerque Police Department at 505-242-COPS, which is 2677. You can also call Crime Stoppers anonymously at 505-843-STOPS. You can check out Murder she told.

[Maggie Freeling]

Wherever you get your podcasts and on all social platforms.

[Payne Lindsay]

Okay, now back to the show. It made news across the nation. A famous author on trial for murdering his wife. Now the 15 year old murder case is back in a Durham court.

[Maggie Freeling]

Author Michael Peterson was convicted of killing.

[Payne Lindsay]

His wife in 2001 and then freed.

[Maggie Freeling]

After judge ruled an investigator misled the jury.

[Payne Lindsay]

In 2017 there is a retrial and Michael actually wound up submitting an Alford plea. Alford pleas are kind of the worst case scenario. They are often offered in cases like this where the prosecution is recognizing they do not have enough to get a conviction. Right. They are, they're blood spatter expert gone. Brad gone.

[Maggie Freeling]

Not relevant.

[Payne Lindsay]

Right. So their case is weak at this point. Um, so what they'll do is they'll offer this plea called an Alford plea. And basically it's saying we recognize we do not have enough to convict you, so we're not going to take you to trial. As long as you plead guilty, you don't have to go to trial, but you are now a felon. So you're basically saying I want my freedom because I don't want to take the chance of going to trial and getting convicted. You know where this plea was became the most famous is in the west Memphis three case where anybody who follows true crime, the reason they are out is because they took an Alford plea and they were able to get out.

[Maggie Freeling]

Interesting.

[Payne Lindsay]

So Michael takes the Alford Plea. He decides he's older, doesn't want to go to prison. He's got kids. He's not taking a chance at trial, Michael takes this plea. He is a convicted felon. He gets time served, and he is released. I think a lot of people often say this points to guilt. Like, it's kind of like a. Like a get out of jail free card. The state looks at it as like a win win. We get our conviction, you get your freedom. What do you make of the Alford plea?

[Maggie Freeling]

I think it's interesting that this plea exists. I think that, as we said, this case is so complicated and there's so many weird things during it that it kind of is like, yeah, I'm not surprised you took the Alford plea, because it feels like at every turn, there's something strange being uncovered. There's some way that this can look bad. The staircase of it all never really quite adds up. I think for most people, even with all the theories, like, it's still kind of like, how did she get exactly where she was? How did she lose so much blood? Where were you during the fall? It's all kind of gray and vague, and there's no other witnesses. Like, there's no one to call upon.

[Payne Lindsay]

She was convicted one time already, and.

[Maggie Freeling]

Even though they had to double back on some of that stuff, I mean, they can't prove, again, the blood splatter and exactly how that happened with their junk science and that his, you know, bisexuality mattered at all. They can't prove that they were fighting about it. They can't prove that motive. So I don't know. I think I would probably advise him to take that plea, too, if I were his attorney. Yeah. Cause he's saying, look, I'm innocent. I'll take the guilty plea. I'll maintain my innocence. You'll know that I admit that you can find me guilty if you wanted to, and I get out.

[Payne Lindsay]

So I think a lot of people also don't understand that there's clearance rates. People will look at a prosecutor's office and say, you're not closing these cases. You're not getting convictions. They want a conviction. This now counts as a conviction. Even though this man is out, it's a way of the prosecutor's office getting a win. That's what they want is wins. Right. Like when people ask me, why are they prosecuting somebody if they know they didn't do it? They need a conviction. I mean, that's the thing. When they have police, like when police departments, prosecutors offices have so Many open cases, it looks really bad. People start losing jobs because the clearance.

[Maggie Freeling]

Rate is so low.

[Payne Lindsay]

So, you know, it's a win for the prosecutors. It might be a win for him. He's free. I mean, he has a convicted felon, but at his age, I don't. I don't know if he's out looking for a job or they might give a shit about that. You know what I mean? Like, maybe he is, but for Kathleen's kids, he is free. Is it a win for them?

[Maggie Freeling]

I think his family situation only got increasingly more complicated as the case went on and as the years went on. So, like, originally, everyone, as soon as Kathleen was found dead, like, basically everyone in the family, like, even Kathleen's sisters were like, this is unbelievable. They had a loving marriage. All the kids were like this. I don't even know why you're investigating our dad. Like, obviously, our mom fell, and this is so tragic, and leave us alone. And then slowly, over time, I think it is very significant that a lot of the family members took a different stance. Kathleen's sisters, it was pretty quick. Kathleen's sisters even testified on the stand against him, being like, I know I said that in my original statement, but I didn't know the real Michael Peterson. Again, I think a lot of that went back to the bisexuality thing, but they didn't like what they heard from at the prosecution, I think, and what they heard from the investigation, and they changed sides again. Same thing happened with Caitlyn. That was Kathleen's biological daughter. She changed sides. So basically everyone biologically related to Kathleen was against Michael Peterson by the time they were in trial. So the family is not united behind Michael. And I've always thought that was really interesting because that was like a huge part of the case in the original part of the documentary was that everyone was behind Michael, and then it just kind of dwindled.

[Payne Lindsay]

All right, so let's get into some theories. Would I 100% say Michael Peterson is innocent, which is a strong term? I can't say that. But what I can say is, to me, murder seems like the least likely theory. And we've kind of talked about, you know, that's the prosecution's theory. So what do you make of murder?

[Maggie Freeling]

Just as I don't think there's enough clear evidence to try him effectively for murder and find him guilty, I think there's also a lot of gray area and weird stuff that was never quite explained and kind of, you know, slapped a band aid on it for his full innocence, too. I always think about the hours in between when she fell down the stairs, quote unquote. And when 911 was called the weird kind of alibi for the night, which seems kind of half baked. And no one else is there to prove it. And part of me wonders maybe there is something to that. Were they fighting? Were they drunk? You know, they could have been fighting.

[Payne Lindsay]

And drunk and she still could have.

[Maggie Freeling]

Fallen down the stairs.

[Payne Lindsay]

Down the stairs, Yep. What I observed of Michael Peterson did not seem to me like this is a man who is masterminding multiple murders. He seemed kind of just. He was very like, spastic and frantic. And he just seemed more like a cold person, not a bad person. Like, I hesitate to use the word, like sociopath, like, just like emotion. Like, he just seems very off. And I think he's aware that he has weird behaviors.

[Maggie Freeling]

Like now he is for sure.

[Payne Lindsay]

And I think maybe at the time, if he was in the house, maybe he was upstairs, maybe he was somewhere else downstairs and, like, knew if he was put himself in the house, they'd be. Everyone would be like, why didn't you do something?

[Maggie Freeling]

Exactly.

[Payne Lindsay]

And maybe he didn't. He really didn't hear it. Maybe he was really drinking. I think he. He's just a little odd. Like, that could spiral very quickly into a lie of being outside. And I was sleeping for two hours.

[Maggie Freeling]

And that's another thing that I think comes up again and again in this case is like, the idea that maybe there were some half truths presented in the beginning and then they had to hold to them. And that's what kind of made this case feel weird. That's what I always think. I'm like, something doesn't ring true here. And I honestly don't know if it's just because he didn't want to say what the full truth was. And maybe the full truth wasn't even bad.

[Payne Lindsay]

I can plausibly see him falling asleep outside, walking in an hour or two later with some cup, with the cups and the bottle and coming across that, I can plausibly see that happening. I think the point is this is a man who should never have to have taken an Alford plea.

[Maggie Freeling]

I. I can agree there where it's like, if we're sitting here being like, what about this and what about this and what about this? And the prosecution's like, how about this? And then it's disproved and it just, it feels like too much.

[Payne Lindsay]

Too much for me is. What's very frustrating is like, you know, there's probably a lot of people that think he's guilty, obviously, but we could argue guilt or innocence all day. But the point is he did not. I don't believe he got a fair trial. I do not believe he should have ever had to take an Alford plea. And I think that's what makes me so mad, is that anytime we have a miscarriage of justice or anytime somebody is tried on false evidence or junk science or weak evidence, we are weakening our own system. And I think that's exactly what we see here. I do not think he should have been convicted in the first trial. I think those jurors were wrong. I think there was reasonable doubt enough. And I don't think he ever should have been tried again. And I don't think he should have been put in a position to take an Alford plea. And he could still be very guilty, but I don't think the evidence shows that.

[Maggie Freeling]

And I think this is something I really align with you on with this case is like, I don't know if you could convict Michael Peterson.

[Payne Lindsay]

I don't think you can. And I think it's absurd. He was found guilty.

[Maggie Freeling]

And I don't know if that means there isn't something weird with this case and that he didn't do it, but I don't think they have the clear picture of what would have happened if he did do it. I think if I was a juror.

[Payne Lindsay]

I would see that and be like, well, you don't know what happened to me. That's reasonable doubt. Come back with more information.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah. And that's what makes our legal system fair. Like, it's not just the optics are bad. And I totally see that. But you can't try someone on optics alone. They had to present what happened and they struck out on provable motive. Unprovable murder weapon.

[Payne Lindsay]

Yeah. More on this case after a quick break.

[Meredith Steadman]

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[Payne Lindsay]

It's tax season and we're all a bit tired of numbers, but here's one you need to $16.5 billion. That's how much the IRS flagged for.

[Meredith Steadman]

Possible identity fraud last year.

[Payne Lindsay]

Now here's a good 100 million. That's how many data points LifeLock monitors every second. If your identity is stolen, they'll fix it, guaranteed. Save up to 40% your first [e-mail] podcast terms apply. Hey, it's John from the up and Vanish team. If you're enjoying this episode, then you should check out the Tenderfoot original series undetermined in 2020, my good friend Dennis.

[Maggie Freeling]

Cooper and I came across the case.

[Payne Lindsay]

Of Jessica Easterly Durning, who went missing from her New Orleans home back in 2019. Days after her disappearance, her body was located just two and a half blocks away, discovered by her own sister. Her cause and manner of death were classified as undetermined, but due to evidence of foul play, many believe someone else played a role in her suspicious disappearance. Our team linked up with investigative journalist Jessica Knoll and former detective Todd McComas in search for answers. Tune in and see what we discovered about Jessica Easterly Durning's untimely death. Listen to Undetermined wherever you get your podcasts or binge ad free exclusively on Tundra Football plus. Now back to the show. So one of the most interesting things about this case, what sets it apart from every other case, is the alternate theory that was proposed because a lot of people think it's just so wild. This theory has become very controversial, and I will say Payne Lindsay is the number one owl haters. He absolutely will refuse to accept the owl was the killer. But I think this has a lot of legs to it. So a neighbor actually proposed this theory. The neighbor is an attorney and proposed that perhaps her death was caused by an owl attack. The theory is that after they were drinking, Kathleen went out front to check on some of the Christmas lights or Christmas decorations she had just put up. So she's out front at this time, she is attacked by an owl, specifically a barred owl. And the talons of the owl cause the lacerations on her scalp. She starts to bleed, causing the drops in the walkway, the blood smear on the door. She's kind of like trying to feel what happens to her head. She's coming out in and out of consciousness, goes into the house, maybe tries to go up the stairs, falls and bleeds out. She actually had little wounds on her face and on her body. And they said this was actually from the owl's beak. It was consistent with the tip of an owl's beak. And there was a feather. There was a barred owl feather. I think that this has legs because barred owls live in the woods by the Peterson House. They are aggressive, can be dangerous. You can Google this. It's explained everywhere. They have attacked people on numerous occasions. Barred owls, specifically. The wounds on her scalp actually are the shape of the talons a barred owl would have. And they basically say that the cause of death was exsanguination. She bled out. It was not blunt force trauma. We do know that she was not hit on the head. There was no blunt force trauma. The theory is she exsanguinated from these lacerations. She bled out. And that explains all the blood. That explains the shooting blood. What do you think?

[Maggie Freeling]

I'm going to play devil's advocate to the owl theory, and here's why. I was attacked by an owl at the end of my driveway.

[Payne Lindsay]

This is it.

[Maggie Freeling]

And I am the statistic here. And as soon as it happened to me, I was like, hot damn.

[Payne Lindsay]

Wait, was this after you knew about the staircase?

[Maggie Freeling]

Yes, I was like. And it was at the end of my driveway. Barred owl.

[Payne Lindsay]

Why did it attack you?

[Maggie Freeling]

It thought I was a squirrel. I had my hair in a ponytail. I was jogging. I had made it to the end of my driveway, and I felt this. I'm doing talons for the listener. I felt this on my scalp. And, like, there was a owl right here. I flailed my arms. Actually, two neighbors down the street, like, pointed at me and, like, exclaimed. And I was like, yes, I'm aware. There was an owl on me. And then it flew up, was on the power line. And we both looked at each other like, that was not supposed to. We thought that was not supposed to happen.

[Payne Lindsay]

Did you have laceration? Like, were you okay?

[Maggie Freeling]

So I was okay. I had my mom checked to make sure I didn't need to get a shot, you know? Yeah, I was at my parents house, which, you know, south. Like, it was at the end of a long driveway. It kind of reminds me of what the Peterson situation might have been. That owl did scrape me. But, you know, the lacerations, multiple lacerations. Like, this owl would have to be like, kind of like scraping her multiple times, beaking her multiple times. That can happen. Sure. I mean, I guess she might not have flailed like me. Maybe there was just enough waning light that the owl gave up on me early. But I did think, like, wow, this is unreal. Like, that this is the owl theory is happening to me.

[Payne Lindsay]

I am floored right now. That you were fucking attacked by an owl?

[Maggie Freeling]

Yes. And it was.

[Payne Lindsay]

It was. Payne Lindsay know you were attacked by an owl?

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah, I told him.

[Payne Lindsay]

You probably are like the foremost expert now on owl Attacks.

[Maggie Freeling]

That is hilarious. Um, I'm not sure I want to take on that burden, but I couldn't believe that it happened to me at the time.

[Payne Lindsay]

I'm truly in shock that you were attacked by an owl, and I literally don't even know what to say right now. So let's just listen to this clip about this theory.

[Maggie Freeling]

The most notorious cases in North Carolina's history. And it just took an even more bizarre twist.

[Payne Lindsay]

A neighbor of Michael Peterson has claimed.

[Maggie Freeling]

For years an owl could be responsible for the death of Kathleen Peterson.

[Meredith Steadman]

Believe it or not, it is very simple. And I have been trying for 14 years.

[Payne Lindsay]

I made an association with the birds.

[Maggie Freeling]

That are in our neighborhood.

[Meredith Steadman]

The sounds that they make.

[Maggie Freeling]

The reference to a feather that was found by the medical examiner who found.

[Meredith Steadman]

Clumps of hair in her hands when.

[Payne Lindsay]

She was taken to the morgue. I am interested in the feather because I have always heard it was actually, like, not microscopic, but, like, small in her hair. Really small in her hair. Like, unlikely to just have gotten there, but maybe it did. It was. I don't think. I think it was really small, like, kind of in. In where like, the. The talons would have been. The way you explained when you got attacked by the owl was like this.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah, yeah.

[Payne Lindsay]

And like, her hair was actually pulled out by the root. It wasn't like, cut or bro.

[Maggie Freeling]

And I remember they said that in the original case too, there are like, there was some image, like, evidence of like, scalping or whatever. Yeah, it's possible. Like, maybe she was just had a second wind and she's decorating her. Her lawn. I just always was kind of like, so she went to the shed, like, stirred up an owl in. In pulling this large reindeer out to the front. Would she be doing that at this time? And look, don't get me wrong, I've done inexplicable things past 9pm where I'm like, I'm not sure why I chose not to do this in the light of day.

[Payne Lindsay]

Have you ever just, like, started power scrubbing your shower at midnight?

[Maggie Freeling]

Because I did that the other day, 100%. And I have definitely, like, been like, you know what? Time to redecorate. Yeah, one a.m. time to redecorate.

[Payne Lindsay]

She had a couple glasses of wine. Maybe she was feeling fricking awesome. She's like, I feel amazing. It is time for the deer. I'll just close with this. David Rudolph, his attorney, who is still on the Peterson team, I believe, if he ever needed one. He says he doesn't know whether the Owl theory is true or not. And again, this is kind of the point. Just there's so many other things that could have happened.

[Maggie Freeling]

I wouldn't be surprised if we have another theory pop up eventually, right? Sure.

[Payne Lindsay]

He is certain, though, that the lacerations are what caused her death. The exsanguination. And whether that was from an owl or in 2003, they thought it was due to scalp splitting when her head hit a flat surface, which again, that wouldn't cause blunt force trauma, but it would split when it hit. Maybe a stair is what they thought, but the corner. The defense's theory has never actually changed. They have always said that whatever these lacerations are, are what killed her. The exsanguination.

[Maggie Freeling]

It's definitely possible. And I definitely don't think there's hard evidence that they were fighting that night. I don't. I do think that I'm. I would say I'm not sure Michael Peterson is honest about what actually went down that night, but I don't know if we can say that's nefarious like you said. However, I just think it's weird.

[Payne Lindsay]

Meredith, the barred owl expert who was attacked by a barred owl and survived. Thank you for talking with me about this.

[Maggie Freeling]

You are so welcome anytime. Happy to come in for any owl related cases.

[Payne Lindsay]

Love it. As fiercely debated as the details around Kathleen's death have become, it feels like a case that will stay unresolved, at least in the court of public opinion, for years to come. For those who believe Michael is guilty of murder, they have to overcome the obstacle of a lack of clear evidence that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that he took her life. Something, in my opinion, still has yet to be proven in a court of law. And for those who believe it was an accident, questions remain about the accuracy of Michael's timeline, about those early morning hours and where he may have been when she died. And for those who chalk the owl theory up to nothing more than a desperate attempt to free a guilty man, we have to remember that strange and unexplained things do happen. It happened to Meredith. And while we may never know the truth, the Peterson family will always carry a heavy weight associated with Kathleen's death. We have to remember that regardless of how she may have died, a loving mother, daughter, sister was lost forever in an unbelievably tragic way. Kathleen's daughter, Caitlin Atwater sat down with Nancy Crace in 2017 to reflect on what losing her mother has meant. All of this testimony, all of this.

[Maggie Freeling]

Drama surrounding this has just been gut wrenching. I mean, it's been so hard to not be able to move forward.

[Payne Lindsay]

It's been 10 years.

[Maggie Freeling]

All I want right now is to.

[Payne Lindsay]

Just, you know, focus on the memory.

[Maggie Freeling]

Of my mother instead of the real injustice that's here, which is that she didn't get a fair trial.

[Payne Lindsay]

In 2007, Caitlyn sued Michael for her mother's wrongful death and was awarded a $25 million settlement. Michael Peterson was granted a new trial in 2011, and after taking the Alford plea in 2017, he embarked on a new chapter of life while still defending his innocence. Here's part of a statement he gave to CBS17 in 2017 I have waited.

[Meredith Steadman]

Over eight years, two things, 2,988 days, as a matter of fact, and I counted for an opportunity to have a retrial.

[Payne Lindsay]

Regardless of where you land on the circumstances and cause of Kathleen's death, as someone who has covered many wrongful convictions, I cannot stress enough the importance of the justice system and the burden of proof that prosecutors have to uphold to keep our system fair and equitable for the accused. Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Upadvanish Weekly. Be sure to tune in next Friday as we dig into another new case. Until next time up and Vanish Weekly.

[Meredith Steadman]

Is a production of Tenderfoot TV in association with Odyssey. Your hosts are Maggie Freeling and myself, Payne Lindsay. The show is written by Maggie Freeling, myself and John Street.

[Payne Lindsay]

Executive producers are Donald Albright and myself.

[Meredith Steadman]

Lead producer is John Street.

[Payne Lindsay]

Additional production by Meredith Stedman and Mike Rooney. Research for the series by Jamie Albright, Celicia Stanton and Carolyn Tallmadge. Edit and mix by Dylan Harrington and Sean Nurney. Supervising producer is Tracy Kaplan. Artwork by Byron McCoy. Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set.

[Meredith Steadman]

Special thanks to Oren Rosenbaum and the.

[Payne Lindsay]

Team at uta, Beck Media and Marketing and the Nord Group. For more podcasts like up and Vanish Weekly, search Tenderfoot TV on your favorite podcast app or visit us@Tenderfoot TV.

[Meredith Steadman]

Thanks for listening.

[Payne Lindsay]

Hi, I'm Grace, host of Redrum True Crime Podcast. These cases focus on the true victims of crime.

[Maggie Freeling]

Why not jump in at episode 114?

[Payne Lindsay]

The tragic murder of Jasmine and Alia, the main suspect in this case gave an extremely bizarre interview to a number of press reporters whilst he was drunk and reportedly high. He speaks about an awful lot on.

[Maggie Freeling]

Camera and has this completely inappropriate laughing and chuckling response when talking about the case. He may even have thought he was gonna get away with the double murder.

[Payne Lindsay]

He'D been accused of but what he didn't know was that two undercover officers.

[Maggie Freeling]

Were on their way to catch him out, and he easily and willingly took the bait. You can find us wherever you get your podcasts.

[Payne Lindsay]

Just search Redrum True Crime.

[Maggie Freeling]

That's Redrum Murder backwards.

[Payne Lindsay]

R E D R U M True Crime.

[Meredith Steadman]

Why'd I just found out that my dad lived a secret life as a hitman for the Chicago Mafia for all these years? It doesn't make any sense. He was a firefighter, paramedic. How the hell can he be a hitman? I need answers. So I am currently on a plane back to Chicago to interview everybody, anybody that knows anything about this. I'm in shock. This is absolutely insane. I just don't understand. I need to figure this out.

[Maggie Freeling]

The shocking new true crime series Crook county from Tenderfoot TV and iHeart podcasts is available now. Binge the entire series for free on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.