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- [00:00]
Maggie Freeling
Foreign.
- [00:02]
Podcast Advertiser/Promoter
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- [01:59]
Payne Lindsay
Welcome to Radio Rental.
- [02:02]
Rob (Narrator/Reporter)
The scariest stories you've ever heard in your life. All told by real people.
- [02:08]
Payne Lindsay
And off we go. This wasn't a human being that I saw. There's something here in this house. Something not of this world.
- [02:16]
Podcast Advertiser/Promoter
There was a woman moving through the hall.
- [02:18]
Maggie Freeling
I stepped back and I was completely alone.
- [02:22]
Payne Lindsay
Radio Rental is available now. Listen for free on Amazon.
- [02:26]
Rob (Narrator/Reporter)
Music.
- [02:29]
Payne Lindsay
Up and Vanish Weekly is released every Wednesday and brought to you absolutely free but for one week early access and ad free listening. Subscribe to Tenderfoot plus at tenderfootplus.com or on Apple Podcasts. If you're already a subscriber thank you for your support.
- [02:47]
Maggie Freeling
This podcast discusses mature and sensitive content, including descriptions of violence that may be triggering for some audiences. Listener discretion is advised. Hey, y'. All. Welcome to up and Vanish Weekly. I'm Maggie Freeling. Today we're talking about a mother and daughter who disappeared at separate times, but within hours of each other. Joanna and Charisse Clark were responsible, hard working residents in Baltimore with no history to suggest they would just run away. The circumstances surrounding their disappearances are highly suspicious and triggered immediate concern when all communication and activity on their social media stopped abruptly. But despite early action and an obvious person of interest, no arrest has ever been made. Joanna and Charisse disappeared during a particularly violent time in Baltimore history. Homicides spiked after the 2015 police killing of Freddie Gray, and they continued at a rate mirroring that of the 90s. Up until recently, though, an individual close to Joanna and Charisse was always on the police's radar. It's also possible they were victims of random crime. Today I'm talking about Joanna and Shareese and what could have happened to them with one of my favorite guests, Alvin Williams, co host of the podcast Affirmative Murder. Alvin was on previously to discuss the disappearance of Henry Baltimore junior. Alvin, I am stoked to have you back.
- [04:39]
Payne Lindsay
Super happy to be back.
- [04:41]
Maggie Freeling
So I'm super curious, where did you find this case? I had never heard of it, and it's shocking.
- [04:46]
Payne Lindsay
I actually live in Baltimore, so this is one of those cases where it's just local lore and, you know, their family is local. There's been local community activists doing like, honk for justice on the streets locally, you know, over the last couple years. And the family still goes to the location of the disappearance. And there was a mother and a daughter disappeared on the same day, never to be seen again. I just, there's something about that, to me that's like more people should know about this. More people should be advocating for these people to, you know, bring their family some sense of peace.
- [05:21]
Maggie Freeling
Right? Yeah. And this was, you know, a lot of times we talk about these cases. You know, when you were on to talk about Henry Louis Baltimore, that's a case that's over 40 years old. This one, actually, they went missing in 2017. So I'm guessing you, you saw a lot of this in action. You saw people on the streets advocating and, and bringing attention to this case.
- [05:40]
Payne Lindsay
For sure. For sure. Yeah. It's been, it's been, what is that, like eight years at this point? But it's still very, very fresh for a lot of people. Their family every month they, they go and post the missing flyer at the apartment complex and. But yeah, it's definitely like a close to home one for me for sure.
- [05:55]
Maggie Freeling
It's absolutely devastating knowing how many family members and people have been affected by their disappearance. So we're going to go through everything. But let's begin with the day friends and family discovered Joanna and Cherise were missing.
- [06:15]
Rob (Narrator/Reporter)
It's Tuesday, February 7, 2017 in Baltimore, Maryland. Employees of Getz's Candy Company begin filing into work. Noticeably absent is a 33 year old worker and mother of seven, Joanna Clark. It's the second shift in a row that she has missed which catches the attention of Joanna's aunt who also works at the warehouse across town. The bell rings at Dr. Carter Godwin Woodson Middle School where Joanna's daughter, 15 year old Cherise Clark is enrolled. However, as students take their seats, Cherise is not in attendance. It's her second absence in two days. Later that day, longtime friend of Joanna, Jessica Watson, pulls into the South Baltimore apartment complex Joanna and her children called home. She is there to perform a welfare check after speaking to family members concerned with Joanna's absence from work. When the front door opens, she discovers Joanna's younger children under the supervision of a teenage son of Joanna's ex boyfriend who informs Jessica that neither Joanna nor nor Sharee had been seen since Saturday. Surprised by this news, Jessica calls the police and reports Joanna and Charisse is missing. Weeks later, when the two fail to reappear, their family is left wondering what happened to this young mother and her teenage daughter. From Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta, this is up and Vanish weekly with Payne Lindsay and Maggie Freeling.
- [08:23]
Maggie Freeling
There's so much to go over in this case and I'm thrilled to have someone who knows the area with us today. So when this first happened, what do you remember thinking? Because I also was reading in context there was a few other people that went missing around this time too.
- [08:40]
Payne Lindsay
Yeah, I mean they disappeared without a trace. And then two months later there was a young lady that was like eight months pregnant who disappeared. We do so many stories out of like Chicago and there's all these rumors over the last few years that there's like multiple serial killers in low income neighborhoods in Chicago. My first, the first place I went to was like this. What if this is one person? But yeah, I mean there was a lot of disappearances and also there was a lot of gun violence, murders involving women, which was very strange. And you know, they, a lot of times they go unsolved here and then, you know, you hear whispers and stuff like, oh, she was messing with this guy, and he had an issue with this guy. And it ends up being like a street beef thing. And people end up that terrible work, collateral damage. But people use other people as proxies to get back at people. And that women become victims in that situation so much, unfortunately, when it comes to, like, street dealings and drugs.
- [09:31]
Maggie Freeling
Pawns. Yeah.
- [09:33]
Payne Lindsay
Yeah. So that there was a string of those types of situations. Then this happened. Then two months later, a pregnant woman. So it was like a crazy time. Baltimore is the home of, like, people having stop sign tattoos on them that says, stop snitching. Like, we. That was like, we, like, invented that. Like, the snitching culture has been so bastardized and twisted into such a. Such a crazy thing.
- [09:56]
Maggie Freeling
Right. And another detail about this case that stands out to me is the unusual circumstances surrounding the relationship between Joanna and her ex boyfriend, Dennis Queen. Here's Rob with the details.
- [10:15]
Rob (Narrator/Reporter)
At the time of her disappearance, Joanna had a protective order placed on Dennis Queen, but due to financial reasons, allowed him to stay at the apartment and help with the children. While Dennis was the father to six of Joanna's children, he was not the biological father to Charisse. According to reports from family members, the two were not close, and Cherise often avoided being in the presence of Dennis. On Saturday, February 4th, the last day Joanna and Cherise were seen, Cherise spent the afternoon at home watching her younger siblings while her mother worked. At some point in the day, Dennis arrived at the apartment. According to him, Cherise left shortly afterwards and was the last time he saw her. After finishing her shift at the warehouse, Joanna was scheduled to go on a date Saturday evening. Afterwards, Joanna reached out to a friend for a ride home, but then decided to take the bus instead. Dennis admitted to drinking heavily that night, but says he remembers Joanna entering the apartment and going straight to her room. With only Dennis's drunken recollection of events to go on, investigators are left with little evidence to aid them in the search for Joanna and Sharee.
- [11:44]
Maggie Freeling
We'll be right back after a quick break.
- [11:49]
Rob (Narrator/Reporter)
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- [12:09]
Maggie Freeling
@Mintmobile.Com Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan, $15 per month equivalent required. New customer offer first 3 months only. Then full price plan options available, taxes and fees, extra cementmobile. Com. And we're back. So it's obvious the arrangement between Joanna and Dennis was strictly for financial reasons. What else do we know about him?
- [12:32]
Payne Lindsay
There's not much to know, which says a lot. They had a very tumultuous relationship. And this is where I say poverty can be such a dangerous enabler for domestic violence. And it's really sad because she had a restraining order out against him. But she was also working at this candy factory, making cow tales to honest living. She was working every day. And having six kids, you need childcare, which is expensive. I mean, you know, six kids, you might as well just stay at home and not have a job if you can't find a way to make it work. So she had to ask him to move back in to help him help her take care of her kids. You know, and then you can tell an abuser that, I'm only bringing you in here for this purpose, but they're gonna inevitably overstep and break any boundaries and fall back into patterns of abuse. So there was a lot of narratives around that, too, as the case, you know, continued to stall, and the streets are talking, and people were like, well, if it. If he was so dangerous, why did he ask her to move back in? And like I said, you know, when you don't have money, you don't have as much freedom to make decisions like that. You know, cutting people out of your life, moving to a place where they can't find you, moving, just packing up and going away is impossible for a lot of people. So to me, that says a lot about his living situation. So outside of that, I don't know what he did for work, if anything.
- [13:58]
Maggie Freeling
So what were you hearing on the street about Shareese and Joanna?
- [14:01]
Payne Lindsay
Well, everybody was saying it was the boyfriend and then the game of telephone. The extremeness of their relationship, issues with the children because. And, you know, I guess they're only rumors, but they're pretty substantiated. I mean, a lot of, like, family members are saying. Are saying that Dennis Queen was being inappropriate with Shareese. I don't know specifically what was said, but her brother said that she told him that he said something very inappropriate to Shareese. And then because of what he said, she was telling him, you need to move out after this weekend. So it was a Saturday when they disappeared, and he was supposed to be moving out after the weekend was over because he said something Incredibly inappropriate to Shareese. And there had also been a pattern of just visibly treating Shareese differently because she wasn't his blood daughter. All of those things were the narrative that people were putting together through the game of telephone, like, locally.
- [14:56]
Maggie Freeling
And I also want to clarify, you know, we don't know for sure if this happened. Um, you know, it's not on camera, written record, anything like that. However, she does have a restraining order against this man. And to get a restraining order, you know, you need to show evidence. So after collecting witness statements from friends and family, police began the search for other leads. Here's Rob with more on their investigation.
- [15:25]
Rob (Narrator/Reporter)
Both Joanna and Shareese were known to be active on social media, so phone records and a digital trail were a priority for investigators. They quickly found that social accounts for both mother and daughter went dark after Saturday night. Theresa's cell phone did ping from the downtown area on Saturday evening, but none of her friends reported seeing her. Joanna's calls to her friend on the way home from her date was the last recorded activity in 2017. Baltimore PD spokesman TJ Smith spoke to the media.
- [16:01]
Payne Lindsay
Every part of their life stopped on February 4. From a public standpoint, that's work, that's school, that's social media. You know, contacting family.
- [16:13]
Rob (Narrator/Reporter)
In December of 2017, independent journalist Claudia Rivero was able to speak to Dennis Queen on camera.
- [16:22]
Maggie Freeling
Did you have anything to do with their disappearance?
- [16:24]
Payne Lindsay
No, I haven't. No, I don't have anything at all, at all. I love both of them to the bottom of my heart. You know, I would never harm neither one of them.
- [16:35]
Maggie Freeling
What do you want to say to the person or people that know what happened to Joanna and Shareece Clark?
- [16:40]
Payne Lindsay
All I'm gonna say is, don't let me find out who you are.
- [16:44]
Rob (Narrator/Reporter)
Despite continued support from community leaders and victims advocates, no persons of interest have been announced following the disappearance of Joanna and Charisse Clark.
- [17:00]
Maggie Freeling
So we both saw this interview with Dennis, and he says, yeah, the restraining order was all bull. It was made up. None of that happened. There was no domestic violence.
- [17:11]
Payne Lindsay
You can tell a lot about somebody. When somebody asks, what would you say to the. The people if you could tell them something, you know, like, bring them home or. I don't know what the right answer is, but I know what the wrong answer is. Like, when you hear the wrong answer, you know that was the wrong answer. And his answer was something like a. Like a why I oughta type of thing. Like, I'll tell you like this. Don't let me find you.
- [17:32]
Maggie Freeling
I love that you Said when you hear the wrong answer, you know it's the wrong answer, because as soon as I heard that, I had the same thought. I was like, well, that doesn't sound like a good answer at all.
- [17:40]
Payne Lindsay
You know? So, like, again, like I said, I don't like to try to nitpick people in grieving times because there's no right thing to say. But I think we can all tell when somebody said the wrong thing. You know, even if it was a. Even if you are completely innocent, you just misspeak because of grief. You can always go, you know, that maybe that wasn't, like, the best. Doesn't look great. And again, that was one of those situations with Dennis Queen where you go, that doesn't. That sounds crazy.
- [18:04]
Maggie Freeling
So devil's advocate with Dennis Queen, we obviously know that night he was allegedly so wasted, he was sleeping on the floor. So drinker.
- [18:12]
Payne Lindsay
Admittedly, yes. Admittedly, that's his alibi.
- [18:16]
Maggie Freeling
You know, you also mentioned income. I'm gonna just assume, based on their. Their income level, you know, he's probably undereducated. So just in fairness to him, he could also just be a really maladjusted person and has no idea how to react to, you know, his girlfriend of eight years going missing.
- [18:36]
Payne Lindsay
Listen, I'm not expecting the guy to wax poetic about, you know, like, find, you know, the most Mark Twain type of way to describe it, you know, but based on his own words, that he has kind of gone back and forth about as far as him being the last person to see both Shareese and Joanna and how the situation played out. These people always say, oh, I love this person to the bottom of my heart. He has not participated in a single search.
- [19:06]
Maggie Freeling
Admittedly, again, he said. He said, no, I don't really have a car, so I'm not. Which, again, to me, it's like, yes, that's sus. But he says it so casually that he's not, like, trying to put a cover on that. I'm like, again, maybe this guy's just.
- [19:20]
Payne Lindsay
I see the devil you're advocating for, because I. That was also something I was looking for. Like, maybe this guy's just a scrub, you know? Like, I was just like, maybe he just is like, I don't know, man. Like, what do you want me to do? That's a very. Like, sometimes that can be a real honest explanation. Sometimes people are just that blunt, where you're like, I don't know how to search for somebody that's missing. What, am I supposed to just go walking down the street but, yeah, it's like, yeah, what are you supposed to do? I guess is the proper response. But there are people who do know what to do, and just being in the mix of the process is a good sign. I'm not saying that you should be doing things for the look or for optics, but also another thing that you said about he was her father. It's like, father's a role, and the role needs to be taken on. Like, he was there for a long time. But you have to take on the role of a father, especially if the kid is not yours by blood. You know, you need to. That's something you need to take hold of and own and work towards. And I don't think he did any of those things. So, yeah, all of those things speak to his character. And like I said, I'm not saying go put on a bright vest and go walk around for the optics of it, but you should care. Like, if you. You are. You've known this girl since she was two. This woman bore six of your children. Nobody should need to be coming up to you to convince you, like, well, don't you think you should help? And it's like, yeah, I mean, I guess so. That would look good. But I'm not. It's like, you should just want to. Nobody should need to be convincing you to do it.
- [20:45]
Maggie Freeling
You should just want to. Yeah, I. You know, it could be both things. I'm like, this guy could just be so off. Such a scrub, just emotionally maladapted. But he could have also done something. We'll be back after the break. The detective said missing kids usually come home. What happens when they don't?
- [21:09]
Rob (Narrator/Reporter)
Based on a true story. Police looking for John Gacy.
- [21:13]
Payne Lindsay
We discovered bodies.
- [21:15]
Rob (Narrator/Reporter)
By the looks of it, they're younger men.
- [21:18]
Payne Lindsay
The things he did to those kids. He's sick.
- [21:22]
Maggie Freeling
The system failed these families.
- [21:24]
Rob (Narrator/Reporter)
Devil in disguise. John Wayne Gacy. Streaming now only on Peacock.
- [21:29]
Maggie Freeling
Do you know how many there are?
- [21:30]
Payne Lindsay
Up to you to find out. This world is dying.
- [21:35]
Rob (Narrator/Reporter)
I've done a ton of research on.
- [21:37]
Payne Lindsay
This and discovered you.
- [21:38]
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Rob (Narrator/Reporter)
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- [21:42]
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- [21:44]
Payne Lindsay
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- [21:47]
Rob (Narrator/Reporter)
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Payne Lindsay
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- [21:57]
Maggie Freeling
We are.
- [21:58]
Rob (Narrator/Reporter)
Begonia. Matedor under 17 not admitted without a parent. Now playing in select theaters in theaters everywhere. October 31st.
- [22:06]
Maggie Freeling
And now, here's this week's Critical missing.
- [22:09]
Rob (Narrator/Reporter)
Case Today's case comes out of Duluth, Georgia. Gwinnett county police are asking the public for help in locating a 21 year old man. Officials say Duane Winters was reported missing by his mother on October 14, and according to some sources, he has not been seen since last month. Dwayne is described as 6 foot 1 and approximately 200 pounds. He has short black hair and brown eyes. He has multiple tattoos, including a spider on the back of his left hand, a full sleeve on his left arm and a Houston Astros emblem on his chest. He was last seen wearing all black clothing. Dwayne was last known to be driving a 2007 blue Honda Accord with Texas license plate number PSS6592. So listeners, if you have seen Dwayne or have information on his whereabouts, please contact the Gwinnett County Police Department at 770-513-5300. You can also check out the up and Vanish weekly Instagram page avweekly to see a picture of Duane and also to share our post for more visibility. Thanks for your support.
- [23:28]
Maggie Freeling
All right, we're back. So let's talk some hypotheses. So Joanna had set aside rent. It was about $800, and when her and Shareese went missing, the $800 was also gone. Some people say, you know, afterwards Dennis had taken it and he was buying himself new clothes. One could also say though that Joanna and Shareese took it and were like, we gotta get outta here and get away. What do you make of Joanna and Shareese voluntarily leaving?
- [23:59]
Payne Lindsay
Because I'm from Baltimore and I know Cherry Hill and I know the area and I know like the economic makeup of a lot of people there. Whenever the idea of like the fled to Mexico theory or they got away, it's like that is so much money. Like that's such a costly venture. And I don't think most people even think of that as the scenario. I understand that they had, you know, he had a protective order, but I just don't think anybody in the that kind of economic situation, their, none of their thoughts are, let's just get out of here. Especially with six other kids. And then like a close relationship with her mother. She has a best friend that's continuing to advocate and look for her. I'm always like disappearing without a trace intentionally is a costly venture. Like, I mean you could, you could, we can look to like movies for silly examples. But I, I, I'm ashamed of how much I reference enough starring Jennifer Lopez. But like just think about like how many, how many like fairy godfather type of figures had to pop up in that movie to be like, here's an envelope full of money to keep you going on your journey and you cutting your hair and you. All these things. I always try not to give these people, these abusers that much credit that somebody felt like they needed to go to the other side of the world to get away from you. So while I'm not gonna just, like, discount that as a theory, it's hard for me to believe it's doable for somebody in this situation. And also that, like, you would even go that far. The idea that I would think she would ask her brother to beat him up before she would try to move to another state with. With. With no contact, or if she was.
- [25:35]
Maggie Freeling
Going to move to another state, give the kids to your brother or your mother, or tell them I'm about to disappear, get my kids. Like, she loved her kids. And they are now. Well, I'm not sure exactly if they're in foster care right now, but they were in foster care.
- [25:50]
Payne Lindsay
The last I heard, they were still in foster care. Her mother is. Was fighting. If her living situation isn't great because it's six kids, you might be able to get one of the kids and you're like, I don't want to split them up and all these things. So it's complicated.
- [26:03]
Maggie Freeling
So let's say he did do something to them. How does this man deal with these two strong women? A mother of fucking six, seven. She's a pretty strong lady. And her daughter as well, helping take care of six kids. How does he deal with both of.
- [26:20]
Payne Lindsay
Them if Derrick Queen is the assailant? What I think happened is Shareese never left. Because what Dennis says is basically, from what I can understand, they kind of cross paths. Like, Shareese was taking care of the kids, and then Dennis showed up and it's like, all right, well, you're here now, so I'm gonna go, right?
- [26:40]
Maggie Freeling
Cause Shareese didn't want to be near him. She didn't want to be in the house when he was there.
- [26:43]
Payne Lindsay
So this is his account. Like, the last I saw her, she was leaving, and then. And then she never came back home. Her cell phone pinged in downtown Baltimore, which from Cherry Hill to downtown Baltimore is like a 15 minute drive. So it's possible to get on a bus or something like that to go there, but it's not like an easy just go run there real quick. It is a little bit of a distance. So if Dennis Queen didn't have a car, that is Hard to do. But my theory is that she never left. I think that he did something to Sharee in the home. And then Joanna later that night arrives and he has her in the home some kind of way, incapacitated. Maybe she's not alive. Now Joanna sees this, finds this out. He's already admittedly drunk, you know, but he's saying he was so drunk he couldn't stand up. But what if he was so drunk that he was out of his mind, you know, and feeling volatile and dangerous. Now the issue is that they have six kids. So it's like if there was violence happening with either Shareese or Joanna from Dennis, why wouldn't the kids say anything? You know, I've seen video of Dennis. He looks like a pretty sizable guy. I don't think it's hard to believe that he could silently or it's some level of silence to where the kids don't hear if they're in another room. Kill both of these women in that apartment and it not be enough of a noise to be heard. My other theory, which again is hard because I don't know if he had a car at the time. The Patapsco river is a five minute walk from where they live. So I don't know how he could have disposed of them if he did do it. But there's a body of water that's not far from where they live.
- [28:15]
Maggie Freeling
I like your theory, but let's say, you know, they did. They were like, let's get away for the night. Shit's getting crazy. I was on a date. He is wild and violent right now. They take the money. They're like, we're just going to go for a couple days and something happens to them on the way to wherever they were going. Let's say they took the money and they were going to call mom and say, mom, I just had to get out. He's being crazy again. The kids are with him. Go get them. But maybe they meet a truck driver, somebody and something else happens to them like a getaway.
- [28:43]
Payne Lindsay
Just like, let's just get away, let's get out of here. Sleep, just sleep away for the night so you can feel comfortable and not be in the same house as Dennis.
- [28:50]
Maggie Freeling
Taking my 16 year old daughter away. Exactly.
- [28:53]
Payne Lindsay
So then, yeah, I mean that, that leaves you open to like, you know, over the road, truck driver type of violence. And then they can flee state to state and that's tough.
- [29:03]
Maggie Freeling
And I would, I would think if they did that too, I do think they would have gone to her best friend's house. Like, that's the thing too. With Joanna.
- [29:11]
Payne Lindsay
She had, she had a community.
- [29:12]
Maggie Freeling
She had a community. She had support networks. It's not like this was this, you know, abused woman who didn't have anybody and needed to, like, run away. She had people.
- [29:21]
Payne Lindsay
Yeah, that's hard. So, like, I do understand that theory, but again, like I said, like, she had a best friend she has a mom with. You know, you maybe can't pack up all seven kids and go there, but we can, we can bring Shareese over here and just come sleep. We're gonna sleep over here for the night. She had a support system of people that could provide that. So, yeah, that's tough. But again, like Dennis Queen is, he's out. Either they didn't investigate further or there's something that they accepted as an alibi. I don't know what it could be.
- [29:52]
Maggie Freeling
Back after a short break.
- [29:58]
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Payne Lindsay
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Maggie Freeling
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- [30:27]
Payne Lindsay
Doug here we have the Limu emu.
- [30:30]
Rob (Narrator/Reporter)
In its natural habitat, helping people customize.
- [30:32]
Payne Lindsay
Their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual.
- [30:38]
Rob (Narrator/Reporter)
Fascinating.
- [30:39]
Payne Lindsay
It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug.
- [30:42]
Rob (Narrator/Reporter)
Uh, limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us. Cut the camera. They see us. Only pay for what you need@libertymutual.com Liberty Liberty, Liberty.
- [30:51]
Payne Lindsay
Liberty Savings.
- [30:52]
Rob (Narrator/Reporter)
Very unwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance company and affiliates.
- [30:53]
Payne Lindsay
Excludes Massachusetts. Hey listeners, if you have a tip or theories about a case you want to share or a case of interest you'd like to recommend to us, then we want to hear from you. Email us casesenderfoot tv DM us on Instagram avweekly or give us a call at 770-545-6411. You can also join the conversation on our discord at discord GG upandvanished. Now back to the show.
- [31:31]
Maggie Freeling
It's so interesting because the problem is, and this is always the problem with missing persons cases is there's no body. So I had a wrongful conviction case in Texas where the guy, his name is Hank Skinner. He's dead now, but a hundred percent innocent and was totally wasted. When he woke up, his whole family was dead. So it's. This is kind of like Dennis wakes up and they're just gone. So, you know, they can't really arrest you when there's no body. It's so hard. But then again, like, Dennis is just, what did he do? You didn't even know to go look for them. Like, so how did you even get rid of bodies?
- [32:05]
Payne Lindsay
What you just said there is like, that's us playing the benefit of the doubt game, right? There's the other perspective of, you knew Shareese wasn't home, you woke up and knew Joanna wasn't home, and you aren't the person that reported them missing. His teenage son was actually there watching the kids. So you didn't report these people missing. And you were the first person to know that Joanna wasn't home. And then the next day she wasn't home. Because you had either. You either had to tell your son to come over or. Or you had to be there to watch the kids. And you never said anything to me that feels like you're choosing to not call the police and get the police involved. You know, it's like, I understand. Look, you don't know where the search party is this week. I get it. You don't know where to go, but you know where people live. You live there. They didn't come home. Why wouldn't you call the police and file a missing persons report? We can get into, like, the history of policing in the inner cities. And maybe he didn't want to deal with the police or something, but it's like, again, this is the mother of his six children and his common law daughter, however we want to phrase it, of 13 years. And you're like, nah, but I don't want to deal with the police. The most innocent thing you can do is call the police, even if it's not the right choice. Like, I watch all the videos. Like, shut the fuck up. Don't say anything. Call your lawyer. And I agree. And I tell people all the time, like, don't talk to the police. If, you know, just wait for your lawyer to come. But if I come home and my family's missing, I'm not thinking about, like, well, what if they think it was me and let me look around to see if there's any blood that could be mistaken for my hand. My fingerprints are on it. I just want my family to be safe. So even in that scenario, again, I gotta. Now I gotta put that into the. To make him innocent. I gotta go. What if he just didn't want people to think he Was the killer. It gets harder and harder as we talk about it, for sure. But let me throw this scenario at you, right? Because this falls into the realm of why I do what I do. Right. Do you remember the Chris Watts story from a few years back?
- [33:54]
Maggie Freeling
Yeah.
- [33:55]
Payne Lindsay
The local news comes and he's like, I don't know where they are. It's crazy. Like, you know, who knows? So with the Chris Watts situation, as soon as Shanann and her daughters were missing, there's news cameras at the house, there's an ongoing investigation, YouTube channels are combing over the neighbors ring doorbell footage. We've just talked about how much of a scrub this guy is, if he is the perpetrator of this crime, if there was any level of scrutiny beyond a year later outside of a courthouse, this interview that we both saw on YouTube, if every day for a week a camera was in his face because people cared. And the story grabbed the nation and it was like, unbelievable. This person was missing and her daughter. If it grabbed the news cycle the way that the Shanann Watts case and the Chris Watts case did, if he did do it, I think by day three, we're like, no, this guy, this guy did it. But there's no record of that because it just, it wasn't a case that grabbed the media's attention, not even really locally that much. It was, it was a, you know, it's gotten a couple of, you know, video segments and vignettes and stuff like that. But, you know, this woman has six kids now. The six kids didn't disappear, but her 15 year old daughter did. She disappeared on the same day as her daughter without a trace. I'm like, what is the algorithm that makes people care?
- [35:11]
Maggie Freeling
I really like the comparison to Chris Watts and just going back and watching his original statements and interviews and being in the neighbor's house, acting all confused. I mean, it's a really good comparison. Just something to look at, you know, it's all speculation, but it's just a really interesting look at someone who acted innocent and then we know that they wound up doing it. So what is it gonna take to close this case?
- [35:38]
Payne Lindsay
It's been eight years, so I mean, we're waiting on bodies or a bombshell confession or some witness to come forward. We both know all three of those are hard at this point. And so I feel like attention, eyes, scrutiny, and I think that will put a fire back underneath this case to potentially find one of those three hard things to find, which is a confession, a body, or a new witness that has some testimony that nobody thought to consider or look further into. Here's what I'll say though is the issue which again, as far as that video that we both saw, there were so many people in that video that were like, I don't want to be on camera. That the idea that a neighbor who heard something is like, I'll tell you what I heard, but just put the camera down on the ground. I don't want to be seen on camera talk, telling people's business or talking about stuff that, you know, might get me in trouble with people around me and stuff. So in that regard, it's hard to like to find a witness in a city like Baltimore and that's unfortunate.
- [36:50]
Maggie Freeling
All right, Alvin, well, I appreciate you coming back on the show to talk about another just absolutely mind boggling case. Where can people find you if they want to find you and listen to your podcast?
- [37:01]
Payne Lindsay
You can find Affirmative Murder wherever you listen to podcasts. I am doing dances on TikTok these days. It is going very well. I'm trying to become a social media celebrity and outside of that, yeah, every Thursday we drop. We just did a two parter on Diddy. If you're hearing this from the past, I say start there so you can understand what we do and then you can. We got hundreds of episodes from there. So yeah, Affirmative Murder, you can catch us anywhere.
- [37:27]
Maggie Freeling
Awesome, Alvin, thank you so much.
- [37:29]
Payne Lindsay
Thank you.
- [37:35]
Maggie Freeling
As someone who works in the criminal legal system, specifically wrongful convictions, I can't help but be understanding of the police for not making an arrest. Too often I have seen a rush to judgment and people arrested in order to get answers for desperate families. Like my latest investigation for the podcast Bone Valley. These rushes to judgment can have devastating consequences. It doesn't help anyone to get it wrong or make an arrest or go to trial with weak evidence. There's only one shot at it. The police stated this during a 2017 press conference.
- [38:17]
Payne Lindsay
We don't have evidence at this point of a crime that occurred, but we also don't believe this is a where a grown woman and her daughter just left on their own seeking shelter or just because they wanted to get away.
- [38:32]
Maggie Freeling
I desperately hope the Clark family gets answers soon, but it's been nearly a decade. And at a 2020 vigil, Joanna's mother spoke about the grave reality of her family's situation. I don't know if anybody's seen what happened or knows what happened. We just need y' all keep praying. I am aware they're gone, but you.
- [38:55]
Payne Lindsay
Gotta give them back. You gotta give them back.
- [38:58]
Maggie Freeling
I'm not stopping. Joanna Clark was 33 years old, 5 foot 3, 140 pounds with hazel eyes, dirty blonde hair, a tattoo of quote Shareese on her right shoulder blade, a butterfly on the back of her neck, a lion head near her ankle, a tattoo of quote Cato going down her left arm, and quote Trey going down her right arm. Cherise was 15 at the time of her disappearance, 130 pounds, brown eyes, dark brown hair and a nose piercing. Their last known location was 2300 Round Road, Baltimore, Maryland. Those with information are asked to call the Baltimore Police Department at 410-396-2100. Y', all, thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of up and Vanish Weekly. Be sure to tune in next week as we dig into another new case. Until next time.
- [40:14]
Payne Lindsay
Up and Vanish Weekly is a production of Tenderfoot TV in association with Odyssey. Your hosts are Maggie Freeling and myself, Payne Lindsay. The show is written by Maggie Freeling, myself and John Street.
- [40:28]
Rob (Narrator/Reporter)
Executive producers are Donald Albright and myself. Lead producer is John Street.
- [40:34]
Payne Lindsay
Additional production by Meredith Steadman and Mike Rooney. Research for the series by Jamie Albright, Celicia Stanton and Carolyn Tallmadge. Edit and mix by Dylan Harrington and Sean Nurney. Supervising producer is Tracy Kaplan. Artwork by Byron McCoy. Original music by makeup and vanity set. Special thanks to Oren Rosenbaum and the team at uta, Beck Media and Marketing and the Nord Group. For more podcasts like up and Vanish Weekly, search Tenderfoot TV on your favorite podcast app or visit us@Tenderfoot TV. Thanks for listening.
- [41:19]
Rob (Narrator/Reporter)
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- [41:47]
Podcast Advertiser/Promoter
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