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- [00:00]
Unknown Host
Foreign you're listening to a Tenderfoot TV podcast.
- [00:10]
Maggie Freeling
This episode of up and Vanish Weekly is brought to you by Alloy Women's Health. Let's be real. Aging can feel pretty lousy. Sleep issues, hot flashes, brain fog, weight gain and decreased libido hit hard and menopause is inevitable. But here's the thing. It's also treatable. I learned that nearly half of women go over three years before seeking relief for menopause or perimenopause symptoms. So why do we wait so long? Well, part of the problem is that 43% of women say their doctors never mentioned menopause hormone therapy as a treatment option. Another 40% didn't even know where to turn for help. And that's where Alloy comes in. Alloy offers unlimited access to experts and safe, science backed treatments all online from the comfort of your own home. No waiting rooms or pharmacy lines. Just fast, effective relief that's delivered right to your door. I cannot recommend Alloy enough. Join the 95% of women who tried Alloy and saw relief in the first two weeks. Head to myalloid.com vanishedweekly and tell them all about your symptoms. You'll get a fully customized treatment plan and you'll get $20 off your first order. Today, head to my a l l o y.com Vanished Weekly and enter code Vanished to get $20 off your 1st order.
- [01:42]
Payne Lindsay
Okay, one second. One of my very good friends, Jake Brennan, has a podcast called Disgraceland, and if you're not listening to it, you need to be right now. Jake and I go way back to the early days of podcasting. We even collabed on our own podcast a few years ago called Dead and Gone. His podcast is called Disgraceland and it takes a deep dive. Look into music history through the lens of true crime. The stories in Disgraceland are incredible and they cover larger than life rock stars and musicians in the crimes they've either committed or the crimes that have happened to them. Jay Z in the nightclub stabbing, AC DC in the night Stalker, serial killer, the Grateful Dead, the CIA, lsd, the Beatles, asap, Rocky, you name it. Disgraceland episodes are like little movies in your ears, expertly scripted and sound, designed with incredible storytelling that keeps you on the edge of your seat. Disgraceland comes out every Tuesday and it also has an enormous back catalog of episodes. Search, follow and download Disgraceland on the Odysee app or wherever you get your podcasts and I promise you won't be disappointed again. The podcast is called Disgraceland.
- [02:56]
Unknown Host
Up and Vanish Weekly is released every Wednesday and brought to you absolutely free, but for one week early access and ad free listening. Subscribe to Tenderfoot plus at tenderfootplus.com or on Apple Podcasts. If you're already a subscriber. Thank you for your support.
- [03:13]
Maggie Freeling
This podcast discusses mature and sensitive content, including descriptions of violence that may be triggering for some audiences. Listener discretion is advised.
- [03:28]
Rob
It's November 1987 in rural Mount Holly, South Carolina. This unincorporated community sits less than an hour north of the bustling city of Charleston. Stephen Malinowski picks up the phone receiver and begins dialing. He's trying to reach his wife Karina's family. The phone rings and eventually picks up. Stephen explains that Karina has mysteriously disappeared. He says that she left the house around 11:30pm but he hasn't seen or heard from her since. Stephen wonders if they may have heard from her, but they hadn't. As the family reels from the devastating news, they're left wondering where she may have gone. But then, months later, another bizarre twist emerges. Annette, Karina's daughter, suddenly disappears from the bus stop by her house. Could this really be happening all over again? Over the past 35 years, authorities have feverishly tried to put the pieces together for two of the most troubling disappearances they've ever seen. Either this was an expertly planned attempt to start a new life together, or something much more horrifying has happened. The question remains, which one is it?
- [05:09]
Unknown Host
Foreign.
- [05:22]
Rob
From Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta, this is up and Vanish Weekly with Payne, Lindsay and Maggie Freeling.
- [05:32]
Maggie Freeling
Hey y'all, welcome back. This week I am discussing a case unlike any I've heard of, but unfortunately, the circumstances leading up to the disappearance are not remarkable. Many believe that Karina and Annette's cases spotlight the broader issue of intimate partner violence and abuse in the United States. It's an epidemic. Over one in three women, that's 35.6% in the US have experienced rape, physical violence, and or stalking by an intimate partner in their lifetime. It's also important to know that it's not easy to just leave. Leaving a relationship is factually the most unsafe time for someone. On average, it takes a person seven times to leave before staying away for good. Which makes me think about Annette and Karina. There's a lot of information we don't know around what actually happened to Karina and Annette. And I want to be clear up front that no one has ever been charged with crimes in relation to their disappearances. But the little that we do know could raise suspicion that there may have been violence and abuse in the home and some have drawn the conclusion that this may have played a part in what happened to them. I'm going to unpack more of that with pain in a bit, but first let's understand more about who Karina and Annette were were here's Rob with more.
- [07:05]
Rob
Karina Malinowski was born in 1961 and was often known by her nickname, Corey. Corrie's family says that they were always very close knit loved ones. Remember that Corrie was always there for people and never missed out on calling loved ones on holidays. She was a fun, loving person who enjoyed life, adored her three kids. When she was very young, Corrie became pregnant with her daughter Annette. She would later have two more children, sons Thomas and James, with a man named Steve Malinowski. Corey and Steve met while he was working at a carnival. The two fell in love and quickly started their family together. But pretty early into their relationship the picturesque dream started to fade. Life was often difficult for Corey. Steve had a hard time holding down a job and was known to use a variety of drugs. Corey's sister in law Sandy stated that the couple fought often. In Corrie she often fought back to stand up for herself. Things became so bad that at times Steve was confronted by Corey's family who encouraged her to leave him. Corey's family says that she often called them after they got into fights. This pattern went on for some time, but eventually Corey's call to the family stopped. When her communication stopped without any real reasoning, her family was left asking a lot of questions, the biggest of which was whether Corey had finally had enough and ran away or if the reason her outreach had abruptly ended may have had a more disturbing explanation.
- [09:05]
Maggie Freeling
It's so hard to look back at these situations knowing what we know now. And I know that because I've looked back. I was in a relationship for a couple years with someone who had undiagnosed schizophrenia. He wasn't abusive in that he was physically violent, but he was unstable, irrational and I went through hell through our relationship. I would excuse small things as weird behavior or a quirk that made him interesting, but really my boyfriend was losing his grasp on reality and neither of us knew it. By the time I was putting my phone in soundproof containers in order to enter my home and then show him my bank account to prove the president wasn't paying me as a spy. I thought back to all those little moments, the little warning signs, and asked myself, how did I get here? And I can relate to someone who was or is abused in that the weird Behaviors became routine. It became normal. And maybe this is what happened to Karina. When Karina stopped communicating with her family, their concerns began to grow. And those fears were only heightened when, out of the blue, Steve called them to tell them she suddenly disappeared and that he hadn't heard from her in some time. Here's Rob with more.
- [10:27]
Rob
On November 20, 1987, Corrie went missing from her 6,000 acre gated plantation in Mount Holly, South Carolina. The property where Corey lived with Steve, her daughter Annette and their two sons, Thomas and James, was known as Moncks Corner. At the time, Steve was working as the caretaker on the plantation. The property was heavily wooded with hundreds of acres of swampland. The area was known to have a lot of alligators and other wildlife. Corey had been working at a local store called Oasis, which was on Main street in nearby Somerville, S.C. when she didn't show up for work that morning, Corey's employer drove the 7.5 miles to her home to make sure she was alright. It wasn't like her to miss her shift. When he arrived, the gate was locked and Corey's car was parked in front of the gate. He noticed that the vehicle was locked and covered in morning dew. Unsure of what to make of the discovery, he eventually found Steve who said that he didn't know where Corey was. He explained that he and Corey had a fight and that she had left between 11 and 11:30pm the night before to go for a ride and he hadn't seen or heard from her since. But when Berkeley county law enforcement arrived, Steve told a slightly different story. The first responding officer on scene was former Deputy Chief of Berkeley County, LR Herrod. Steve told Deputy Chief Harrod that Corey had left in another vehicle and that he had watched her leave from inside their house. This was immediately concerning to Herod because the home was located more than a half mile up a windy drive and the main road would have been obscured by trees due to the lack of visibility. It would have been impossible for Steve to see Corey get into a car from inside the house. Steve also alleged that Corey was having an affair and may have run off with another man. As law enforcement started to investigate Corey's disappearance, they found no evidence of an affair, which cast further suspicion on Steve's account of things. Authorities continued their search into where Corey may have gone. In the meantime, Corey's family tried to make arrangements to help care for Corey's young children. But after they witnessed a strange interaction between Steve and Annette, they would soon be left feeling that he may know more than what he had originally shared with authorities.
- [13:16]
Maggie Freeling
More on this case after a quick break. Hey, it's Maggie. Whether you're a new or a loyal up and vanish weekly listener, we suspect you like to unpack missing persons cases, unsolved murders, and wrongful convictions. Which is why we highly recommend the brand new podcast, Snitch City from the Boston Globe's award winning Spotlight team. Snitch City brings you inside the secret world of police informants through one small city at the forefront of America's drug war, New Bedford, Massachusetts. Over the last two decades, the 250 member New Bedford Police Department has been the poster child for informant misconduct, lies, deception, cover ups of COVID ups. And in the last few years alone, officers have fabricated tips, carried on sexual relationships with informants, and even coaxed them to lie in court. Featuring never before told cases, Snitch City investigates how officers have exploited the secrecy of the informant system to enrich themselves, break laws, protect drug dealers, and attack perceived enemies, all with impunity. Tune in before the whistle is blown. Follow Spotlight Snitch City on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now. Wow. What's up?
- [14:48]
Payne Lindsay
I just bought and financed a car through Carvana in minutes.
- [14:50]
Unknown Host
You, the person who agonized four weeks.
- [14:53]
Maggie Freeling
Over whether to paint your walls eggshell or off white, bought and financed a car in minutes. They made it easy.
- [14:58]
Payne Lindsay
Transparent terms, customizable, down and monthly.
- [15:01]
Rob
Didn't even have to do any paperwork.
- [15:03]
Unknown Host
Wow.
- [15:04]
Mm.
- [15:05]
Payne Lindsay
Hey, have you checked out that spreadsheet.
- [15:06]
Unknown Host
I sent you for our dinner?
- [15:07]
Maggie Freeling
Options Finance your car with Carvana and experience total control financing, subject to credit approval. All right, now back to our case. It's been well established that there's no way Steven could have seen her get into the car through the dense woods. Plus, he says she left late at night. Why lie about something like that? And the differing stories are also concerning. Y'all are true crime fans, so by now you know that human memories are not photographic. We have faults. In fact, I know this well. Misidentification is the leading cause of wrongful convictions, contributing to more than 75% of convictions overturned by DNA testing. Our recollections are flawed, but Stephen's memory doesn't seem flawed. He told multiple different stories, not the same story with slightly altered facts. His original story was that they had an argument about money because he didn't have a job. And so she left. But this didn't sit right with Karina's family. They were adamant she would never leave her kids, despite following multiple leads. Deputy Chief Herrod has been unable to find Karina. After she disappeared, Karina's family tried to arrange for Annette to come stay with them, but Steven stopped it last minute. Then when Karina's family came to help search, Annette tried to call her aunt's attention to something in the attic without Steven knowing. But the aunt never got a chance to investigate or figure out what Annette wanted to show her. It gave Karina's family a strange feeling. Did Annette know what happened to her mom? After months with no word from Karina, everyone felt certain something terrible had happened to her. So when tragedy struck again less than a year after her disappearance, everyone began to wonder how something like this was even possible. Here's Rob with more.
- [17:10]
Rob
Just 11 months after Corey's unexplained disappearance, Deputy Chief Harrod was once again dispatched to the Moncks Corner Plantation. When he arrived, he was met by Steve, who stated that his stepdaughter Annette, who was just 11 years old, had gone missing from the bus stop in front of their property, adding more mystery to the situation. Steve said that he found a crumpled note from Annette in the shed at the bus stop.
- [17:39]
Unknown Host
The note read, dad, mom came back.
- [17:45]
Maggie Freeling
I have to go with her.
- [17:48]
Payne Lindsay
Give the boys lots of kisses and hugs. And you, too. Love, Annette.
- [17:58]
Rob
While the discovery of the note was very unsettling, several things immediately stood out. The note had multiple misspelled words, and other words were scratched out. And according to Deputy Chief Herod, the note looked as if it was written quickly. A handwriting analysis was performed on the note, but at the time, the technology was not very advanced. However, the analysis confirmed that the note had been written by Annette, though the expert could not determine if she was forced to write the note or whether it had been written under duress. During their initial investigation, law enforcement conducted multiple interviews. The last person believed to have seen Annette that morning was her bus driver. He reported that he initially passed Annette while driving down the road, but when he turned around to pick her up, she was gone. The statement from the bus driver soon became of notable concern to authorities. If what he had claimed was true, how had Annette disappeared so suddenly? His account of events left investigators with mounting suspicions and a narrowing focus. Was this second vanishing a mere coincidence, or was there actually a frightening through line between Corey and Annette's disappear?
- [19:29]
Maggie Freeling
This sighting by the bus driver makes me feel so sad. My heart breaks for this little girl who's missing her mother, and she's sitting at the bus stop alone. The image of it is just heartbreaking. Especially, you know, it wasn't even a bus stop. It's like this little shelter for one kid to wait for the bus. And like, how does she just vanish so quickly? Someone had to pick her up. So did the bus driver really see her, or was he mistaken? The note that was found appeared to be in her handwriting, and there's words misspelled and crossed out. And it seems like maybe she was under duress. She was stressed. Someone was telling her what to say. I find it strange that Steve would propose the theory that Karina knew Annette would be at the bus stop and was somehow able to scoop her up in the brief moment between when the bus driver first saw her and when he came back to pick her up, and that somehow the two weren't ever seen by anyone. It's also crazy to me that Steve would be mad at the idea that Karina came back for Annette and would crumple up and throw the note. Wouldn't he be overjoyed to know that Korina was still alive and came back for her daughter? I mean, it's hard to predict how someone should react or have an expectation from them to respond a certain way, but there are a number of things that just don't add up about Steven for me. And as authorities were left to sort the details of two mysterious disappearances, their investigation soon began to narrow in on one person closest to Karina and Annette. Here's Rob with more on how their investigation unfolded.
- [21:19]
Rob
When authorities began the search for Annette, Steve quickly became a key person of interest. He agreed to several interviews and took a polygraph test. But the results of the test were inconclusive, meaning the polygrapher was unable to determine if the subject was being deceitful or not. Despite heavy media coverage of their cases over the last 35 years, there have been no confirmed sightings or communication with Corey or Annette. In 2016, Berkeley County Sheriff's office opened a cold case unit to examine Corey and Annette's cases, along with other unsolved cases in the county. To date, their reexamination has not led to any additional information that has been shared publicly. Following Annette's disappearance, Steve moved to Florida with he and Corey's sons, Thomas and James. It's been reported that he later abandoned them and that Thomas and James were eventually adopted. In an interview in 2020, the sons were quoted as saying that they believe that their father knows more than he's saying about their mother and sisters disappearances. Former Berkeley County Sheriff's office chief Randy Harrod also believes Steve knows more than he's telling in August 2019, Steve was charged and arrested for felony domestic child abuse in St. Petersburg, Florida, unrelated to Corey and Annette's cases. While tragic for those involved, many feel this further supports Karina's family's claim that there may have been violence in the home. To this day, Steve has never been charged with any crimes for Corey or Annette's disappearances, but he remains a person of interest in both cases. Until more information or new leads come forward, Corey and Annette's loved ones are left wondering what really happened to them, hoping that the truth will one day be revealed.
- [23:41]
Maggie Freeling
Carina's family has never heard from her, and they've always said she would contact them to let them know she's okay. And it just doesn't make sense that Karina would come back for a net and not take her two boys. The main issue in this case is a lack of physical evidence proving that Karina and Annette are dead. A no body murder case relies heavily on strong circumstantial and forensic evidence. And unfortunately, right now, there's just not enough to prove this case. This year marks 34 years that Carina and Annette have been missing. Today, digital evidence can also provide key information that can assist in investigations like this. But this technology was not available in 1987. These challenges make it highly unlikely that a solution in this case will come from traditional investigative tools. Someone has to be the voice for Karina and Annette. It's time for them to receive long overdue justice. Payne covered Karina and Annette's case for the up and Vanished TV series. So there is nobody better to discuss the details of this case with. When we come back from a quick break, we'll get into Payne's thoughts and his visit with Steve. You're listening to up and Vanished Weekly. Where'd you get those shoes? Easy. They're from dsw.
- [25:02]
Unknown Host
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- [25:30]
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- [27:07]
Hey listeners, if you have a tip or theories about a case you want to share or a case of interest you'd like to recommend to us, then we want to hear from you. Email us casesenderfoot tv DMUS on Instagram avweekly or give us a call at 770-545-6411. You can also join the conversation on our discord at Discord GG upandvanished Now here's Kristen Seavey, host of Murder She Told with this week's critical missing case.
- [27:43]
47 year old Russell Burnett was last seen on February 21, 2017. He left his neighbor's home around 6 7am in Franklin, Maine with his dog Bevy. His home was about a half mile walk through the woods and when a friend stopped to pick him up for a doctor's appointment later that day, both Russell and Bevy were missing. Russell's cell phone, personal items and the jacket he'd worn earlier were at the home, indicating that they'd made it back. Two weeks later, Bevy showed up on the neighbor's doorstep, clean and well fed, indicating that she'd been taken care of. Russell hasn't been seen since. Russell Burnett was born in February of 1970, making him 55 years old in 2025. He is white, has hazel eyes and is 5 foot 7. At the time of his disappearance, he had a shaved head and weighed about 150 pounds. If you have any information on the disappearance of Russell Burnett, please call the Maine State Police Major Crimes Unit south at 1-800-.
- [28:48]
You can check out Murder She Told, wherever you get your podcasts and on all social platforms. Okay, now back to the show.
- [28:59]
Maggie Freeling
Payne, thank you for joining me to give your insight into this case. I mean, you did legit boots on the ground work, so thank you.
- [29:05]
Unknown Host
Of course.
- [29:06]
Maggie Freeling
Why did you choose this case for the TV series?
- [29:10]
Payne Lindsay
I thought it was just awful that a mother and her daughter went missing. Again, just zero explanation, but a lot of red flags pointing at one particular person. I think based on early investigations, was never really thoroughly looked into and was able to slip through the cracks 30 plus years later.
- [29:32]
Maggie Freeling
How did he slip through the cracks?
- [29:35]
Payne Lindsay
I think it was probably just the lack of physical evidence. I think that investigators were definitely suspicious. But, you know, what can you do, right? Unless they catch him in some big lie or they find some sort of physical evidence that points to a murder that this individual's a part of, they're kind of stuck. And I think that because it happened so long ago, now every year it gets harder.
- [30:00]
Maggie Freeling
Let me ask you, what was your experience with law enforcement on this case? A lot of times it's a cold case. They might not be working it anymore. What did you take away from meeting with them?
- [30:10]
Payne Lindsay
Law enforcement still really cares about this case. All these years later. It's new people in the department who have inherited a cold case, essentially, and it bugs them that this has remained unsolved. They still keep tabs on that guy, too. They are not unaware of this. And they're actively poking around when and where they can to get anything. Hopefully one day, anyone who knows something says something. And if it's just him, maybe one day he cracks or slips up to the wrong person.
- [30:48]
Maggie Freeling
It's so frustrating.
- [30:49]
Payne Lindsay
It is.
- [30:51]
Maggie Freeling
So when Karina goes missing, he contacts her family, but when Annette goes missing, he doesn't. Do you find this odd?
- [30:58]
Payne Lindsay
I find it extremely odd and I'll tell you why. Let's imagine that somebody I knew that I was in a relationship with went missing. And then a year later our daughter goes missing and left a note saying that mom came and picked her up. That would mean that despite the fact that my daughter is now gone with her. Holy shit. Guys, she's alive. She's alive. Let's go find Her. She's. She. She's gotta be close by. That was never the case. He didn't even act like that. He acted like they were both dead now.
- [31:36]
Maggie Freeling
Yeah.
- [31:36]
Payne Lindsay
And that, to me, was just very telling. Like, you should be calling and saying, guys, she's alive. We need to get on this. She isn't dead. Right. That could clear him.
- [31:48]
Maggie Freeling
It could clear him.
- [31:49]
Unknown Host
Yeah.
- [31:49]
Maggie Freeling
Yeah.
- [31:49]
Payne Lindsay
But he didn't see it that way. He couldn't see it that way because he was guilty in covering things up and not thinking like a normal person.
- [31:57]
Maggie Freeling
When I first read that, I was like, he's just a piece of shit, dude. But, like, that is weird to not tell her family and to be like, look, I didn't do it. She's alive.
- [32:05]
Payne Lindsay
Yeah, it's like, proof. But, like, that was never even the angle or what was said at all. He didn't say anything. And the family found that baffling. And I don't think he realized, maybe only in hindsight, how telling that was to everybody.
- [32:20]
Maggie Freeling
So when you talked to Steven, which is incredible that he's even allowing people to speak with him, what were your takeaways?
- [32:29]
Payne Lindsay
It was crazy because I had met with his estranged sons first. We talked for days, hours of interviews. I even went to one of their cousins houses in Florida. We played beer pong and stuff together. They were super cool, we were friendly. And, you know, I didn't want to put them in a weird position or anything. But after talking for several days, we discussed, what if they reach out to their dad and ask to speak to him?
- [33:07]
Maggie Freeling
How long had it been since they had seen or talked to their dad?
- [33:12]
Payne Lindsay
They had not seen their father in nearly two decades. They didn't even know where he lived. They had questions for him. And I loosely floated, hey, what would you think about ever approaching him? Would you ever do that for your sake? The questions that you're asking out loud that you want the answers to right now, Would you ever go knock on your dad's door and say, hey, dad, it's your son, and ask him that in person. If you do want to do that, I'll be there to support you. And I think that could be my end to ask him as a journalist, really? They felt like this had been something that they had not discussed with him. It was something that's haunted them their whole life.
- [33:53]
Maggie Freeling
I was gonna say, is this something they have thought about? Like, what did they think about their. They think their dad was involved in this?
- [33:59]
Payne Lindsay
Yes. And that's also very telling to me. So they suspect their Dad's guilt. They were able to do it together. And so they both felt like a unit and they had us backing them. It was kind of the best case scenario. And so I got an address and we caravan over there. And the whole plan was they were going to go to the door first. And so they do. And they're wearing lavalier mics and we're sitting outside, and so I can hear them inside and see what they're doing. And so at first they just say, hey, dad, you know, and he's like, oh, my God. And he's excited and probably nervous. And he invites them in and they're catching up for a few minutes. And eventually, and I'm kind of waiting for my cue a little bit, he says, one of the brothers says, dad, there's someone I want you to talk to. His name is Payne. Next thing you know, I hear my name called and I come to the door. And because of just the way that we had positioned everything already, he felt obligated to talk to me. And so it was us four. I was sitting on the couch, Page, they were on either side of the living room, and Steven was directly across from me. And we talked for over an hour or so. And there was a lot of things he said I thought were super strange, that anyone who was innocent would never say.
- [35:19]
Maggie Freeling
Let's play a little part of your discussion with him.
- [35:23]
Payne Lindsay
Seems like everything I've found, everyone I've talked to, 100%, no matter what, it ends up going back to Steve every single time.
- [35:34]
Unknown Host
I mean, he's got to know something.
- [35:35]
Payne Lindsay
Do you want to ask him point blank what happened to them?
- [35:40]
Unknown Host
I'd like to, yeah.
- [35:42]
Maggie Freeling
So you and Annette's two sons, Thomas and James, approached Steve at his house. And you were hiding the recording gear. So you didn't scare him. You were like, wired. And he had absolutely no idea you were coming, let alone his estranged sons.
- [36:00]
Unknown Host
I think I'd have. Aspen would be having me and him go up through the door and just.
- [36:05]
See if he answers.
- [36:06]
And then seeing if he would just be willing to help us out with information. Hey, Steve, where are your sons? Haven't talked to you? If he's wanting some idea, that's my fault, not you guys.
- [36:24]
Maggie Freeling
And it's clear he didn't know what to say. But pretty quickly you all explain that you're there to try and get some answers about Karina and Annette's disappearance.
- [36:35]
Unknown Host
We came over here to see if we can't get answers. You know, our sister, our mother.
- [36:40]
Payne Lindsay
That night, when was the Argument about.
- [36:42]
Unknown Host
Whether I'll be drinking too much.
- [36:44]
Payne Lindsay
What was the last thing she said to you?
- [36:47]
Unknown Host
Basically, I'll be back.
- [36:48]
Payne Lindsay
I'll be back.
- [36:49]
Unknown Host
Yeah.
- [36:50]
Payne Lindsay
Where was she going?
- [36:51]
Unknown Host
She didn't say. She never did. I got up the next morning, she wasn't home.
- [36:57]
Maggie Freeling
Steve says Karina just left and he never knew where she went. But this story isn't sitting right with Thomas and James.
- [37:05]
Unknown Host
Well, Uncle Leon said that you had told him that you had seen somebody pick her up. I didn't see anybody pick her up. It was a van. I didn't see anything.
- [37:14]
Payne Lindsay
He swears to God that's what you told him.
- [37:17]
Unknown Host
I would never have been able to see anything like that.
- [37:19]
Payne Lindsay
That's what I thought, too.
- [37:20]
Unknown Host
Went through polygraph tests and they cleared me of any wrongdoing.
- [37:25]
Maggie Freeling
And then, Payne, you bring up the moment where Annette was trying to draw attention to the attic before she went missing herself.
- [37:33]
Payne Lindsay
There was one more thing that I thought was super strange. It was a family member who was over at the house after Karina was missing. Before Annette was missing. And Annette was signaling to a family member to go upstairs in the attic. Why would she do that?
- [37:48]
Unknown Host
I don't know. I don't have. I don't have any food. I know nothing about her. I never even met up in the attic.
- [37:55]
Payne Lindsay
You've never been in the attic of the house? Had anyone?
- [37:59]
Unknown Host
I had no reason to.
- [38:02]
Maggie Freeling
Then Steve brings up the day that Annette went missing.
- [38:06]
Unknown Host
About nine months later. I went to get out to close the gate, and I saw enough blank inside on the bench. So I walked over, I picked it up, and it said, dad, mom came back for me. I love you. Goodbye.
- [38:20]
Payne Lindsay
The other weird thing about the note was that it was crumpled up, like, entirely.
- [38:23]
Unknown Host
I did that.
- [38:24]
Payne Lindsay
You did that?
- [38:25]
Unknown Host
Yeah. Because when I read it, I was pissed.
- [38:28]
Maggie Freeling
Steve says he found the note and was angry and crumpled it. And he also brings up the fact that he and Karina would have disagreements. Which you really tried to dig more into.
- [38:40]
Unknown Host
I don't have any more answers. I don't know where your mother went. Why, yes, we had our confrontations, but no.
- [38:47]
Payne Lindsay
Did it ever get physical?
- [38:48]
Unknown Host
My memory doesn't serve me that well. I'm sorry.
- [38:50]
Payne Lindsay
You remember crumpling up a note, but you don't remember if you ever laid your hand on Karina.
- [38:56]
Unknown Host
I wasn't like it.
- [38:57]
Payne Lindsay
Do you want to say you didn't, or can you say definitively that you didn't?
- [39:00]
Unknown Host
My memory doesn't recall ever really being in sort of a violence computation with her. I really Don't.
- [39:09]
Payne Lindsay
Do you understand why people might think that you're involved in this?
- [39:12]
Unknown Host
By the way it looks, I had nothing to do with it. I had nothing to do with Karina disappearance or everything to do with him as disappearance. I can tell you if I did not murder Karina or her daughter. No, it's just not. No.
- [39:25]
Payne Lindsay
Why should I believe you?
- [39:27]
Unknown Host
I don't have any other answers for you. I don't.
- [39:32]
Maggie Freeling
Payne, you connect the dots and really grill him on how suspicious all of this makes him look. At this point you bring up the fact that authorities are still working their case and on the video he seems to get uncomfortable.
- [39:47]
Payne Lindsay
Do you think that the police will eventually find out what really happened to her?
- [39:51]
Unknown Host
I just hope she'll show her face somewhere.
- [39:53]
Payne Lindsay
Well, I mean at this point the police have to figure that out because there's about four full time officers on this every day now. Which is great, you know.
- [40:01]
Unknown Host
Yeah, absolutely.
- [40:02]
Payne Lindsay
It's really good. If you know in your heart that Karina and Annette cannot be found, you should tell your two sons to stop looking for them.
- [40:13]
Unknown Host
But I don't know that.
- [40:15]
Payne Lindsay
Just tell the truth.
- [40:16]
Unknown Host
I already told the truth. How are they telling you the truth?
- [40:20]
Payne Lindsay
Well, I'll be honest. I wish you were more of a help.
- [40:26]
Maggie Freeling
More of our discussion after a quick break.
- [40:32]
Unknown Host
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- [42:04]
Hey, it's John from the up and Vanish team. If you're enjoying this episode, then you should check out the Tenderfoot original series, Culpable now. Fair warning, I helped produce the series so I may be a little biased, but hear me out. In 2018, my good friend Dennis Cooper came across the case of 21 year old Christian Andreacchio who died under mysterious circumstances in his Meridian, Mississippi apartment after a 45 minute investigation. His death was ruled a suicide despite evidence of potential foul play. Then we investigated the shocking death of Brittany Stikes, a 22 year old pregnant mother who was gunned down on a busy highway in rural Brown County, Ohio. Even after a decade long investigation, her killer is still at large. The common thread in each of these cases is the looming question of culpability. Where does the blame lie in each of the victims deaths? Listen to all episodes of Culpable seasons one and two wherever you get your podcast or binge ad free exclusively on Tenderfoot plus. Now back to the show.
- [43:08]
Payne Lindsay
To me he sounds nervous and his answers are never straightforward. And he's got just flat out bad answers for stuff like have you ever laid a hand on her?
- [43:20]
Maggie Freeling
Yeah. You asked him if he ever laid a hand on Karina and he had a pretty weird response.
- [43:28]
Payne Lindsay
Right. And I told him that that should be a definitive yes or no answer.
- [43:33]
Unknown Host
Right.
- [43:34]
Maggie Freeling
He said I don't remember. And then when you grilled him, to the best of my memory, I don't think so.
- [43:40]
Payne Lindsay
If you asked me if I'd ever laid a hand on anyone that I knew in the past, it should be an affirmative yes or no and hopefully no. Right. So I found that very strange. Like that's not how you respond. I mean that. Tell me that you're basically saying yes.
- [43:54]
Maggie Freeling
I was gonna ask you how you think they feel now.
- [43:57]
Payne Lindsay
Oh, they felt the same way I did and they were even more pissed at him.
- [44:04]
Maggie Freeling
Yeah. Do you think they got the answers they were looking for?
- [44:07]
Payne Lindsay
I think that he is their father and the last thing you want to ever really believe is that he's capable of doing something like this. Either way, it was sort of like turning a leaf because it was some form of closure in the sense of that wasn't looming. We did approach our dad and we feel a little bit validated now. About how we feel because we thought that whole thing was weird and that he is suspicious and that our suspicions are valid, despite how the facts looked, which pointed that direction. It's a hard pill to swallow, especially when you can't definitively prove it. So I think for them, it was sort of a clarification, validation of a suspicion they've had for a long time. Dad's not gonna come out and say, yeah, I did that. Right. But he could have acted this way or that way, and it been like, hey, maybe I'm reconnecting with my dad and he isn't that person I thought he was and didn't do anything and can help me find my mom. But no, it was the complete opposite. And that told them everything. And there was another part. This is just sort of my psychological evaluation of the situation. But I was kind of trying to spook him a little bit. And it worked, I think, more than I thought it did. I was sitting there and I said, you know, the police are actively looking into this, and they're searching this place and that place. Evidence is what's going to solve this. And he gets up and walks to the kitchen and puts his coffee mug in the microwave, extremely nervously. And I ended up. I filmed this whole thing on my phone, so you can watch back the video. But I think in the moment, he thought this was Chris Hansen. Like, the cops were about to come in here and arrest him.
- [45:58]
Maggie Freeling
So, okay, so explain, like, what his nervous behavior was.
- [46:02]
Payne Lindsay
The tone of his voice changed dramatically, and it seemed like he was faking how much he wanted to get answers to.
- [46:11]
Maggie Freeling
Yeah. Cause didn't you say, like, oh, isn't that great? Like, you had to kind of prompt him to give a shit?
- [46:16]
Payne Lindsay
That's right. Yeah. I was like, isn't that. I was like, that's awesome. Right? It should be a great thing that the police are gonna imminently solve the disappearance of your daughter and your ex wife. Unless you don't care about what happened to them, which I think is what you're exuding right now. And so he. In my eyes, in a very phony way, was like, yeah. Mm. And like, knots in his stomach thinking, which door is the SWAT team about to come into? Unfortunately, they weren't out there about to do that. But that dude acted extremely guilty to me. And at the very least, if he has nothing to do with it, he doesn't care at all.
- [46:58]
Maggie Freeling
Yeah. I'm not one to kind of look at how someone behaves, but this is a little glaring, his lack of concern or Care about where they are. What do you make of Annette trying to call her aunt's attention to something in the house, or. We don't know if it's something, but.
- [47:16]
Payne Lindsay
Just upstairs, I think something happened up there. She didn't like that place upstairs, and for whatever reason, she drew attention to it. And her family thought that was also odd. I mean, they remember that for the rest of their lives. I think she was trying to say something, and it was probably related to what happened to her mom. I think that is why she's not missing.
- [47:39]
Maggie Freeling
Do you think Korina was in the house at that time? You think it was her body upstairs?
- [47:44]
Payne Lindsay
I think something like that, yep. I think she saw something, knew enough of something that this person has to do it again to somebody else to cover their tracks.
- [47:54]
Maggie Freeling
What was your take on the note that Annette left?
- [47:57]
Payne Lindsay
It's weird because after the handwriting analysis and everything, the authorities seemed pretty convinced that it was actually her handwriting, which kind of made things a little bit more perplexing. Didn't make sense.
- [48:13]
Maggie Freeling
But she could have been told to write this under duress.
- [48:17]
Payne Lindsay
Mm. That's. That's the running theory, is that maybe somebody made her write this. And I did ask him, when you saw the note, what was your first reaction? He said he was pissed. Yeah, I was like, pissed about what? Wouldn't you be, like, concerned also, then relieved to know that your wife is alive? Allegedly. It doesn't add up, but there could.
- [48:44]
Maggie Freeling
Be a world where he is mad. And let's give him the benefit of the doubt that he didn't do this. And Korina does return, takes her kid, and now he's like, what the fuck?
- [48:54]
Payne Lindsay
Sure, there's always that.
- [48:56]
Maggie Freeling
And, like, I could see that being a reason to get mad, but it just doesn't make sense.
- [49:02]
Payne Lindsay
It should also be a complete shift in your feelings as well. After a year of her being missing and likely assuming that something bad happened to her at that point, to learn that actually, hey, she's alive and well somewhere and she's, like, right around the corner, right? She's, like, down the street.
- [49:21]
Maggie Freeling
This case is decades old. It seems like there's not enough evidence to make an arrest. Now what. What is the future of Annette and Korina?
- [49:32]
Payne Lindsay
I think the biggest hope is keeping tabs on that guy. They can only do so much, right, you know, they can't force him to come down to the station and be re interviewed. They could always ask him or stop by, like I did. I think that even for my sake, I've always thought that one day, I'm gonna pop up on him again. And having sat with this video for a long time, I can go in again and find discrepancies if there are any. And maybe this time his conscious exists. You know, you can only hope that. But if it does, then maybe it's just time's up, you know, it's not too late to do the right thing, the only right thing you could possibly do at this point, which is say what you know and pay the price.
- [50:30]
Maggie Freeling
My heart truly breaks for this entire family. Thinking of little Annette at the bus stop, sad, broken about her mom disappearing and then herself encountering something horrifying, something violent and never being seen again. And the two little boys that get left behind who are now adult men who never got to know their mother and believe that their father killed her and their sister. It is beyond tragic and senseless and horrifying. Karina and Annette both have family that still love and care about them and deserve answers. Here is what Karina's sister in law told ABC News 4 a few years ago. If she was missing herself, she would.
- [51:21]
Payne Lindsay
Have called long enough to say, hey.
- [51:23]
Maggie Freeling
I'm okay, don't worry about me. And if she had taken Annette the.
- [51:28]
Payne Lindsay
Same thing, she would have called and said, hey, I got Annette. I'm going to get the other boys. Don't worry about me. But we haven't heard nothing.
- [51:36]
Maggie Freeling
It's really up to Steve to come forward and do the right thing for his family if he is the one who wronged them. Karina would now be 62 years old and Annette would be 46. If you have any information about Karina and Annette's disappearances, contact the Berkeley County Sheriff's Office Cold case unit at 843-719-4465 or coldcaseserkeleycountysc.gov and if you or anyone you know is experiencing violence or stalking, contact the Domestic violence hotline at 1-800-799-7233. Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of up and Vanished Weekly. Be sure to tune in next Friday as we dig into another new case. Until next time.
- [52:32]
Payne Lindsay
Up and Vanish Weekly is a production of Tenderfoot TV in association with Odyssey. Your hosts are Maggie Freeling and myself, Payne Lindsay. The show is written by Maggie Freeling, myself and John Street. Executive producers are Donald Alderman Albright and myself. Lead producer is John Street. Additional production by Meredith Steadman and Mike Rooney. Research for the series by Jamie Albright, Celicia Stanton and Carolyn Tallmadge Edit and mix by Dylan Harrington and Sean Nurney. Supervising producer is Tracy Kaplan. Artwork by Byron McCoy. Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Special thanks to Oren Rosenbaum and the team at uta, Beck Media and Marketing and the Nord Group. For more podcasts like up and Vanish weekly, search Tenderfoot TV on your favorite podcast app, or visit us@Tenderfoot TV. Thanks for listening.
- [53:41]
Rob
Ghosts, Aliens? Skinwalkers? What do you believe? Well, brace yourself for Unexplained Encounters, the podcast where people from around the world share their most bizarre and terrifying experiences with us, and I narrate them to you from alleged sightings of werewolves.
- [54:05]
Unknown Host
Jesus Christ, you better.
- [54:11]
Rob
Two demonic entities in the dark shadows of the room. We're not asking you to decide what to believe in. Rather decide what you fear. Follow and rate Unexplained Encounters on Spotify and Apple podcasts, or go to eeriecast.com.