VANISHED: Lauren Spierer

Summary

Up and Vanished Weekly: Vanished – The Lauren Spierer Case

Podcast Information:

• Title: Up and Vanished Weekly
• Host/Author: Tenderfoot TV
• Episode: VANISHED: Lauren Spierer
• Release Date: March 5, 2025

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Introduction

In this gripping episode of Up and Vanished Weekly, hosts Payne Lindsay and Maggie Freeling delve deep into the mysterious disappearance of Lauren Spierer, a 20-year-old college student whose vanishing has left her family and community searching for answers. Joined by true crime enthusiast Meredith Steadman, the hosts explore the intricate details of Lauren’s last known movements, the ensuing investigation, and the broader implications on campus safety and victim-blaming in missing persons cases.

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Background of the Case

Lauren Spierer was a 20-year-old student at Indiana University (IU), studying fashion and preparing for an internship in New York. On the evening of June 2, 2011, Lauren attended a fraternity party with her boyfriend Jesse Wolfe and friends. The night took a tragic turn when Lauren failed to return home, leading to a frantic search that uncovered her lifeless body the following day.

Maggie Freeling (07:00): "Lauren’s case is so tragic, and I think about it a lot. She went missing after a night of partying, and it’s heartbreaking that it remains unsolved."

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Initial Disappearance

The evening of June 2, 2011, saw Lauren attending a party hosted by her friend Jay Rosenbaum in Nome, Alaska. After partaking in the festivities, Lauren and Corey Rossman, a neighbor she had met earlier, left the party with visible signs of intoxication.

Payne Lindsay (11:15): "Lauren seemed quite messed up. Whether it was alcohol or something more, she was clearly vulnerable."

Lauren’s impaired state raised concerns among attendees, but the night spiraled further when Lauren left the bar barefoot, her phone and shoes left behind—an indicator of her disoriented condition.

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The Investigation

Security footage revealed Lauren and Corey entering her apartment building around 2:30 AM. Moments later, an altercation occurred between Corey and another man, Zach Oakes, resulting in Corey being knocked to the ground. Despite these events, Lauren and Corey managed to leave the building, with Lauren appearing disoriented and dropping her keys and purse along the way.

Payne Lindsay (22:14): "Lauren was likely still vulnerable after a long night of partying, raising questions about the responsibility of those around her."

Upon reaching Corey’s residence, Lauren refused to stay on the couch, opting instead to leave and return to her friend Jay’s house. Witnesses noticed a bruise on Lauren's face when she arrived at Jay’s place, further complicating the narrative.

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The Role of Friends and Responsibility

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the responsibility of Lauren’s friends. Despite her clearly intoxicated state, the individuals she was with that night did not ensure her safe return home. This lack of accountability became a focal point, leading Lauren’s family to file a civil lawsuit against Corey Rossman, Jay Rosenbaum, and Michael Beth, accusing them of negligence.

Maggie Freeling (12:30): "Victim-blaming is rampant in these cases, and it’s infuriating. Lauren was in a vulnerable state, and her friends failed to protect her."

The lawsuit argued that these friends should have assured Lauren’s safe return, but the appeals court dismissed the case, stating that minors under the influence do not carry a legal duty of care toward each other.

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Lawsuit Filed by Parents

Lauren’s parents, Robert and Charlene Spierer, were deeply affected by their daughter’s disappearance. Frustrated by the lack of progress in the investigation and the unresponsive attitudes of Lauren’s peers, they took legal action against those last seen with her.

Maggie Freeling (35:36): "The Speierers are incredibly involved and soft-spoken, but their pain is palpable. They’ve faced immense challenges in seeking justice for Lauren."

Despite their efforts, the lawsuit did not hold up in court, leaving the Spierers feeling unsupported and further highlighting the systemic issues in handling such cases.

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Theories and Suspects

Throughout the episode, various theories about Lauren's disappearance are explored:

1. Accidental Death or Health Emergency: Given Lauren’s heart condition (Long QT syndrome) and her intoxicated state, there’s speculation that she might have had a health emergency that went unnoticed.

2. Opportunity for Predation: The discussion introduces Israel Keys, a known serial killer who was in the area during Lauren’s disappearance. Keys had a pattern of burying "kill kits" and was known to research missing persons cases, making him a prime suspect.

   Payne Lindsay (53:18): "Knowing that Keys was there at the time and how vulnerable Lauren was, it seems plausible that he could have taken advantage of her."

3. Internal Conflicts Among Friends: Some believe that the group of intoxicated friends might have inadvertently caused Lauren’s disappearance through negligence or worse.

The hosts emphasize the difficulty in pinning down the exact cause due to the chaotic nature of the night and Lauren’s impaired state.

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Recent Developments

In recent updates, Lauren’s parents filed a lawsuit against Corey Rossman, Michael Beth, and Jay Rosenbaum, alleging negligence. However, a federal appeals court upheld the dismissal of the case, stating that the defendants had no legal duty to ensure Lauren's safety.

Maggie Freeling (35:36): "Their lawsuit was dismissed because legally, minors cannot hold each other accountable in this way."

Despite these setbacks, Lauren’s family continues to seek justice and awareness, raising a reward to encourage witnesses to come forward.

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Conclusion and Call to Action

The episode concludes with a heartfelt appeal from Lauren’s family, emphasizing the ongoing search for truth and the importance of community support in solving such cases. The hosts urge listeners to share any information that might shed light on Lauren's disappearance, highlighting the critical role of public engagement in unresolved mysteries.

Payne Lindsay (56:02): "If you have any information, anything small could be big. Please speak up and help us find Lauren."

Lauren Spierer’s case remains a poignant reminder of the vulnerabilities faced by young individuals and the societal responsibilities to protect them. Up and Vanished Weekly not only seeks to uncover the truth behind Lauren’s disappearance but also aims to foster a dialogue about safety, accountability, and the relentless pursuit of justice.

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Key Quotes

• Maggie Freeling (07:00): "Lauren’s case is so tragic, and I think about it a lot. She went missing after a night of partying, and it’s heartbreaking that it remains unsolved."

• Payne Lindsay (11:15): "Lauren seemed quite messed up. Whether it was alcohol or something more, she was clearly vulnerable."

• Maggie Freeling (12:30): "Victim-blaming is rampant in these cases, and it’s infuriating. Lauren was in a vulnerable state, and her friends failed to protect her."

• Payne Lindsay (53:18): "Knowing that Keys was there at the time and how vulnerable Lauren was, it seems plausible that he could have taken advantage of her."

• Payne Lindsay (56:02): "If you have any information, anything small could be big. Please speak up and help us find Lauren."

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Additional Resources

Listeners seeking more information or wishing to assist in the case can visit findlauren.com or contact the Bloomington Police Department at 812-339-4477. The episode also highlights the importance of the Indiana Lifeline Law, which encourages timely intervention in such situations.

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Up and Vanished Weekly continues to shine a light on perplexing cases, urging communities to remain vigilant and supportive in the quest for justice.

Transcript

[Maggie Freeling]

Foreign you're listening to a Tenderfoot TV podcast.

[Payne Lindsay]

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[Maggie Freeling]

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[Payne Lindsay]

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[Maggie Freeling]

A small town police force, a missing Alaska Native woman, and a shocking betrayal of trust when 19 year old Sonya Ivanov vanished one rainy night in Nome, Alaska.

[Payne Lindsay]

It seemed like another case of a.

[Maggie Freeling]

Young woman gone missing. But days later her body was discovered shot in the back of the head and the truth was far darker than anyone. Imag how did the Search for Justice expose one of Noem's own police officers? And what does her story reveal about the deeper injustices that put indigenous women at risk? I'm Celicia Stanton. Join me on my podcast Truer Crime as we unravel the murder of Sonia Ivanov, a case where trust was shattered and the fight for justice revealed cracks.

[Payne Lindsay]

In the very systems meant to protect us.

[Maggie Freeling]

Listen to True or Crime for free on Apple Podcasts.

[Celicia Stanton]

Up and Vanish Weekly is released every Wednesday and brought to you absolutely free, but for one week early access and ad free listening. Subscribe to Tenderfoot plus at tenderfootplus.com or on Apple Podcasts if you're already a subscriber. Thank you for your support.

[Payne Lindsay]

This podcast discusses mature and sensitive content, including descriptions of violence that may be triggering for some audiences. Listener discretion is advised.

[Meredith Steadman]

It's the evening of June 2, 2011, millions of eyes are fixated on Game 2 of the NBA Finals. The Dallas Mavericks go head to head against LeBron James in the Miami Heat. Jesse Wolfe and his fraternity brothers settle in for tip off. Amidst the cheers and excitement, Jesse picks up his phone and starts trading texts with his girlfriend Lauren, who's home getting ready for an evening out. Their friend Jay is having some friends over to celebrate the end of the spring semester. Depending on how things go, they may keep the party going at nearby Kilroy Sports bar. To the locals, it's known simply as Sports. The two chat while Jesse keeps his eye on the game. A dominant fourth quarter comeback puts the Mavericks over the Heat, a clear sign that they aren't going down without a fight. In the moment, it seemed like just another night. But the following day, Jesse and the rest of Lauren's loved ones would learn some troubling news. Lauren never returned home after spending the night out with friends. So what exactly happened in the early morning hours after she was seen walking home alone? All these years later, that question and many others still lingers. From Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta, this is up and Vanish Weekly with Payne, Lindsay and Maggie Freeling.

[Payne Lindsay]

Hey, y'all. Welcome back to up and Vanish Weekly. I'm Maggie Freeling. Today we're digging into the case of missing college student Lauren Spierer. And there are many people and cases I cover where I can see myself in the victims and survivors. And I'm sure you do, too. That's part of why I do this work, because I can relate. But I was Lauren Spierer at 20 years old. I absolutely had a false sense of safety in the world. I was always street smart, but definitely walked around with the that couldn't happen to me attitude. It's possible Lauren did too. It wouldn't surprise me. 20 year olds, we think we're invincible. So to talk about all of this, I want to welcome back Meredith Steadman to the show.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yes, I know. I'm so excited. It's actually our first time meeting in person, which is huge.

[Payne Lindsay]

Huge. And we already realized we have so many things in common.

[Maggie Freeling]

So many things.

[Payne Lindsay]

Speaking of that, you know, we are talking today about a missing person and you have looked extensively into cases like Lauren's. Not particularly Lauren's, but you know, I'm just wondering, as someone who looks at so many of these types of cases, what stands out to you about Lauren's case?

[Maggie Freeling]

Lauren's case is not one that I've worked on in that I haven't like, done any interviews or been on the ground in any way on Lauren's case. But Lauren's case is definitely one that I have read about a lot. And I think one of the reasons is because Lauren was in college around the same time that I was in college. And there's just so many things that I kind of relate to about it. It makes my stomach drop because, you know, she went missing, and I'm sure we'll get into it, but she went missing after a night of partying, and she had friends around her at least different times of the night. And it just kind of makes me think back on my college experience and times that I partied and makes me think about, like, how lucky I was to either have my wits about me or people looking out for me. And this case, honestly, really pisses me off. Like, this case, like, really. I just feel so much for her family. I can't believe it isn't solved yet. It just. It's so tragic, and I think about it a lot. Lauren's case is definitely one that has stuck in my mind since, like, the. The day it happened.

[Payne Lindsay]

We're definitely gonna get into this. But I think one of the things about her case that's interesting too, is she went missing around the same time as people like Jennifer Kessie and Tara Grinstead and, you know, a lot of those cases that we've heard a lot about. But for me, I actually didn't hear a lot about hers. And I find it interesting that, um, it's almost like more podcast heavy. She went. Listen, she went missing in 2011. Haven't seen much TV on her, which is interesting.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah, I totally agree. And I think that's maybe at the root of why this case kind of like, sticks with me. There's just not as much like, for lack of a better word, like, juicy meat when it comes to this case. I think as, like, Tara Grinstead and the rumor mill that went around with that case. It was, oh, the beauty queen and her. Her boyfriend looks so suspicious and the community and the small. It wasn't like that. It was. I think the thing that stuck out about this case to me was the college angle. And then after the kind of the report of, like, college girl goes missing from campus after partying, it just kind of went, you know, kind of went away. And I think that's why it's so sad. There's not like a documentary. Like, this case is definitely covered, but there's not a documentary about it. Unlike there's multiple on Tara Grinstead and I just, I think that's because the kids aren't talking anymore and therefore producers of the doc, these documentaries are like, well, there's not enough tape.

[Payne Lindsay]

Okay, so let's get into the case and talk more about what we know.

[Meredith Steadman]

In the early summer months of 2011, students at Indiana University had just wrapped up their semester and were busy making summer plans. 20 year old Lauren Speer was studying fashion and taking a summer class before she started an internship back in New York. Sometime during the Evening of Thursday, June 2, Lauren began texting with her boyfriend Jesse Wolf, who was watching a basketball game with his fraternity. The two were students at the university and had been dating for some time. At some point that night, Lauren received a text from her friend Jay Rosenbaum inviting her to come by his apartment to hang out with some friends. He lived just a few streets away. Like many college towns, most things around the IU campus are in close proximity and easily accessible on Foot. Around 12 or 12:30am Lauren and her friend David walked together to Jay's house where the group kicked off a night of partying, a way to celebrate the end of the semester. At the party, Lauren bumped into Jay's neighbor, a guy named Corey Rossman, who Lauren had previously met at another party. Everyone hung out at Jay's house until about 1:45am when the group migrated to a nearby sports bar called Kilroy's, which everyone called Sports. Some accounts say Lauren and Corey may have left Jay's house together and made another stop before meeting back up with the group. The friends hung out at Sports for a while and the drinks kept flowing. Lauren and Corey were together the whole time. At one point, Lauren made her way outside to a deck with a sand pit where she kicked off her shoes. Eventually, Lauren and Corey left the bar, but Lauren left behind her phone and shoes. Witnesses say that while she was at the bar, Lauren seemed heavily intoxicated or under the influence of something and was having difficulty walking. So had the evening's festivities simply gone too far or was something more serious potentially going on?

[Payne Lindsay]

So let's get into this because there is so much to talk about. So off the bat, we were talking about the location this took place, College campus. Both of us were Lauren young college girls, 20 years old. I remember walking around, around campus, not, you know, feeling safe, not necessarily being like, nothing's gonna happen to me, but thinking I'm on college campus, there's campus security, there's kids all over. What are the chances I'm gonna vanish? Like I, I wasn't thinking that was gonna happen to me, I definitely had.

[Maggie Freeling]

Instilled in me at that time. And I wonder if it was actually in part because of Lauren Spierer's case, like, that you need to walk around with a buddy. I remember, like, the camp, like, I went to Emory. I remember the campus always being like, you need to. You need to walk with someone else. You always need to walk with someone else. But, yeah, I definitely did dumb things. Like, dumb things.

[Payne Lindsay]

I remember being very drunk, walking around campus from frat party to my dorm. And yeah, I'd be with friends, but it was not safe.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah, I think about that. And all the girls that I've seen, all the women that I've seen in my life holding their shoes, barefoot, drunk after, like, don't wanna wear their heels anymore.

[Payne Lindsay]

Until recently, I didn't wanna wear my heels anymore. I was like, you know what? I'm gonna get a piece of glass, but I'm fine.

[Maggie Freeling]

Like, whatever. Belayed her for it. You know what I mean? Like, people. That's what also, like, makes my blood boil about this case is like, people were so harsh. Like, she did it to herself. And it's like, you do realize that there's that in these college campuses. Like, these are young people experiencing freedom. Like, they're experiencing independence. Independence, yeah. For the first time in their lives and experimenting. And that is not always a good thing, but it is definitely a pretty universal thing.

[Payne Lindsay]

Pretty. Yeah.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah. And I don't think that Lauren is some, like, crazy outlier in that way.

[Payne Lindsay]

I have heard that, you know, when this happened after they had found some cocaine in her apartment that, you know, there was all of this victim shaming and. Which is absolutely what freshman has not, you know, experimented. Whether it's alcohol or weed or cocaine, that has nothing to do with who she is or who. Whether she deserves to be found or not. So I just want to put that out there since we're going to be talking about a lot of these things. And so I wanna talk about that aspect, the shaming aspect. Right. Because she had just met this guy, Corey Rossman, and I've seen a lot of people saying it was really weird for her to have felt so comfortable to leave with him after only knowing him for a week. I would just say to those people, they've obviously never been a freshman in college. You. You meet someone for a day and they're your best friend. Like, that's all you have.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah. I think at that time in your life, when you're in. She was 20. It's like you are making new friends constantly. You feel the sense of even false community by being in a school or in that area with people you have something in common with immediately, oh, you go to school or you know this person. Oh, we have something in common. And he did know her friends. It wasn't a random stranger. He. He had a, like a one degree of separation from her.

[Payne Lindsay]

Right. So Cory is with her, he's buying her drinks. Um, they wind up getting absolutely sloshed. Again, whether that involved drugs, we don't actually know. So I saw a picture of the bar and there's like. It seems like it was kind of like made to be like a. In New York, we have this surf bar. So they put fake sand. So the backyard had like sand area.

[Maggie Freeling]

Where like students could just Adult sandbox.

[Payne Lindsay]

Exactly. So, yeah, her shoes were off.

[Maggie Freeling]

She took her shoes off and then was drunk and never put them back on. Probably left them at the bar.

[Payne Lindsay]

She seemed to have been quite messed up.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah. I remember her parents said they thought that there's a chance she could have been drugged at Kilroy's, the sports bar that she had gone to. And I know people in my life that have suspected they've been roofied. And it did kind of look the same where they were like, I don't know. I didn't think I drank that much at all or that's something that I. That's the amount I've drank normally. And I was way more intoxicated than normal. And I think there's also the. Just throwing this out there. Even if you're not being roofied, when you go to a place like this, and I don't know the kind of establishment. Establishment Kilroy's was seems like a college bar. College bar, who knows? I just know that, like, sometimes it's not like you're going to a nice cocktail bar. Sometimes they're like, this is a cup of vodka practically with a splash of. And you don't know what you're drinking. You don't know how much you're drinking.

[Payne Lindsay]

She's £95.

[Maggie Freeling]

£95?

[John Street]

Yeah.

[Payne Lindsay]

I remember being at bars like this. Like, that's. They over serve you. You just get drunk, you tip like that's it. So do I think it was possible she was overserved?

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah.

[Payne Lindsay]

Do I also think it was possible anyone there, not even just the guys she was with, could have put something in her drink? Absolutely. Yeah.

[Maggie Freeling]

She would never have noticed.

[Payne Lindsay]

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[Maggie Freeling]

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[Payne Lindsay]

Alright, now back to our case.

[Meredith Steadman]

When Lauren and Corey left Kilroy's, they headed back to Lauren's. Security footage from her apartment building shows Lauren and Corey entering the lobby around 2:30am and exiting at the fifth floor where Lauren's apartment was located. Moments later, Lauren and Corey encounter a group of guys. It's reported that the footage shows Corey and one of the men exchanging words before the other man hits Corey, knocking him to the ground. Minutes later, Loren and Corey are seen leaving the building walking in the direction of Corey's apartment. Most of their walk is captured on a series of security cameras. Lauren is seen stumbling multiple times. At one point it looks like she's trying to sit down, but she falls on the sidewalk hitting her face. She appears to be very disoriented and Corey picks Lauren up and places her over his shoulder and continues on. During the walk, Lauren dropped her keys and purse. It's believed the two arrived at Corey's residence a short time later. Corey's roommate Mike finds him vomiting on the steps outside and he helps get Corey in bed. Mike tries to get Lauren to crash on their couch, but reports say she told him she didn't want to. Around 3:30am, Mike called Lauren's friend Jay to see if he could bring Lauren back to his house. When they arrive, Jay notices a large bruise on Lauren's face. When he asks her how she got it, Lauren said she didn't know. About an hour later, Lauren decides to leave Jay's house. Some accounts say that Jay tried to get Lauren to crash at his place and sleep off the evening's events, but instead she wanted to go home. Other accounts say that Lauren wanted to keep the party going and was trying to make plans to meet up with some friends. At 4:30am, Lauren leaves Jay's with no shoes, no purse and no phone. Jay stood on his balcony and watched Lauren walk towards her apartment. A few Streets away. All signs seemed to indicate that when she left Jay's house, Lauren was likely still in a vulnerable state after a long night of partying. Sparking the debate about whether those with her that night may have had some responsibility to ensure her safety and well being.

[Payne Lindsay]

So they wind up going to her apartment. All these apartments were right next to each other. I've looked at a map. They're really in one or two block radius. They're on the outskirts of campus. These aren't like dorms or anything.

[Maggie Freeling]

They're like apartment building for students. That's what I gathered.

[Payne Lindsay]

So then another really weird thing happens. When they get back to her apartment, they encounter some guys or a guy. It's very unclear again because we don't have the footage. But this is allegedly what is on the video footage. There's this guy, Zach Oakes. What can you tell me about him and what happened?

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah, yeah. Zach Oakes is an interesting part of this case because I think that's an instance where I was like, yes, yes, more of this because he kind of, from what I understand, tries to intervene when he sees Lauren so intoxicated. And I think he basically sees her with this guy, probably knows her, probably knows her boyfriend. And then he, I'm guessing, sees Corey Rossman is like, who's this guy? Who's this guy with her while she's so intoxicated. And then they actually get in a fight. Like he tries to fight Cory and maybe Cory tries to fight him first. But I imagine when I'm imagining this situation that Zack says something like, what are you doing? Like, Lauren, are you okay? And then there's some defensiveness, fight ensues. Obviously we don't have the video footage, but I do think it comes from a good place. I'm glad someone was trying to look out for her at some point.

[Payne Lindsay]

At some point. The takeaway for me is they're fucked up. They're fucked up. They're visibly, clearly fucked up. The video footage not being released is really interesting to me. Do you have any thoughts on why that has not been released? Now, 12, 13 years later, I feel.

[Maggie Freeling]

Like my brain goes a couple of different places. I wonder if the family wants it released at all. Because I do wonder if it's like kind of embarrassing and personal and doesn't feel necessarily like they're going to get new information, but it might just show Lauren and her final moments in a light that they don't want published. And then another thing is once they release it, whoever's out there will Know what they do or don't have.

[Payne Lindsay]

Right.

[Maggie Freeling]

So if anyone is scared for their safety as the perpetrator, I think it might be detrimental to release it. And then like, oh, okay, they don't have me at all. Great. I'm good.

[Payne Lindsay]

And then there's the other thing, too, is that there might be information in it that only the perpetrator knows. So they're withholding that to make sure that when they find somebody, it's the correct person.

[Maggie Freeling]

Ah, that's good.

[Payne Lindsay]

I think more likely it's. I think the fact that we don't hear the family demanding for its release probably means they don't want it out. Just because it is showing these things. The last memories of Lauren. You don't want her stumbling drunk or roofied, you know, hitting her face on the ground. I can completely understand that.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah. And not in this day and age. Not with, like, how footage gets cut up and passed around.

[Payne Lindsay]

So from there, they then leave.

[Maggie Freeling]

She's at her apartment for, like, 15 minutes or something. I was wondering, why didn't she get shoes? Yeah. I almost feel like they went there to get shoes. Like, in my mind, I'm like. It feels like they were going to go get something.

[Payne Lindsay]

This, to me, again, is like, really showing me that there is something just.

[Maggie Freeling]

Very off with, like.

[Payne Lindsay]

I just think you're more than just drunk. Yeah. They're not.

[Maggie Freeling]

They're not. There's not logic going on.

[Payne Lindsay]

No. And I guess, like, now, in retrospect, like, 15 years out of that kind of mentality. I don't. I just. I don't know, maybe you can get that drunk where you're just walking around without shoes five hours.

[Maggie Freeling]

I know. It makes my heart. It makes my heart sink thinking about it. Because I feel like reading about this case and hearing about this case. It's like, I've seen this state before. I feel. And it just takes, like, one thing to go wrong for someone to be super vulnerable.

[Payne Lindsay]

So they go to Corey's. Corey pukes. And allegedly Cory stays. Corey goes to sleep.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah. And so his roommate's home. And that is interesting because the roommate kind of, like, receives them. I think he kind of is like, helps him get to bed.

[Payne Lindsay]

Cause the roommate was apparently sober. He was, like, studying or something, like. And they come home and he's like, oh, my God.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah. Like, whoa.

[Payne Lindsay]

But she didn't want to stay. She wanted to leave. And so she did. She winds up back at her friend Jay's house, who is wondering how she has a bruise under her eye and.

[Maggie Freeling]

Isn'T he in the same apartment building as. He's in the same apartment building as Corey Rossman. I think. I think that's why they're neighbors.

[Payne Lindsay]

If he. If Jay was trying to get her, like, go home. Let me, like. Or maybe Jay was even like, let me take you home. You're just a couple corners away. I mean, imagine Jay was trying to.

[Maggie Freeling]

Get her to stay, too, from what I read.

[Payne Lindsay]

Yeah. And imagine, like, you've had those drunk friends that are completely belligerent like, that are like, fuck you doing what I want to do.

[Maggie Freeling]

I'm going home.

[Payne Lindsay]

I'm going home doing this. And, like, imagine him trying to do the right thing and, like, grabbing her and being like, no, you're staying. Like, that would also be not good. Imagine in the morning, she's like, this dude assaulted me and made me stay at his house. Like, it's like, what do you do? What do you do? He let. He let her go.

[Maggie Freeling]

I think that's so valid. You can't, like, imprison someone. But then also the other. The other point about this is like. Like, her apartment was, like, practically around the corner. I think there was probably, like, a don't go, don't go. But okay, yeah, you're around the corner. You'll be fine.

[Payne Lindsay]

He says she was looking for a ride or trying to find someone. Other reports say that he was calling people to take her home.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah.

[Payne Lindsay]

But he's allegedly the last person to see her as she walks down the street. And that again, that's just so. It's just like she literally leaves and then vanishes. Allegedly.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah. And it's just this really kind of hazy night with all these kind of fringe friends.

[Payne Lindsay]

It feels like it really bothers me because anyone trying to victim blame her obviously has not been in college a college student.

[Maggie Freeling]

Exactly.

[Payne Lindsay]

It's been in this kind of environment. They just don't understand.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah. I mean, I think even just looking back at being younger, being in that time of your life, it's like, making friends is easier. And I can say this with authority in my 30s now, but it's just easier. And you feel a sense of camaraderie more easily. You feel like you have more stuff in common. I don't think it takes as long for you to, like, invite someone into your circle. I just think that friends are made quickly, Especially on a college campus. You already feel like you have something in common. You feel like you're probably one person removed. You know, you have a friend of a friend of a friend that's how you make friends.

[Payne Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Maggie Freeling]

And it's just like, it's so normal.

[Payne Lindsay]

To me, it's so normal. Everything she did is something that I also did every step of the way. I could have been Lauren. So I think it's really disgusting, people who victim blame, particularly in this instance. I mean, she's just a kid.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah.

[Payne Lindsay]

One of the things that makes this case so hard is that we literally don't know anything about what happened to Lauren after she leaves Jay's house. We don't know if anyone saw her or interacted with her because she literally vanished.

[Meredith Steadman]

The following day, Friday, June 3rd, Jesse and Lauren had made plans to spend the day together. That morning, Jesse tried calling Lauren to make arrangements for the two to meet up. After multiple unanswered calls, he finally received a back call from Lauren's phone. But when he answered the call, he was surprised to hear a stranger's voice on the other end. It was an employee at Sports who explained that the phone had been left there the night before and they were trying to reach the owner. Concerned about Lauren, Jesse contacted her roommate and explained the situation and asked if she had heard from her. When she said she hadn't, the two agreed something wasn't right. A short time later, they met up on campus so Jesse could get a key to Lauren's apartment. When he arrived, Jesse opened the door hoping to find her there. But Lauren was nowhere to be found. By this time, Jesse's concern was starting to grow, and at 4:30pm he contacted the Bloomington police Department to file a missing persons report. Lauren's family was also contacted with the news that she hadn't been heard from in hours. Immediately, Lauren's parents, Robert and Charlene Speier, called local hospitals, fearing she may be in medical trouble. Lauren had a heart condition known as Long QT syndrome and was taking medication. But no hospitals had records of her being admitted for treatment. The following day, Lauren's parents flew to Indiana to spearhead a search for Lauren. Family, friends and law enforcement rallied hundreds of volunteers to canvass the surrounding area, including a nearby quarry and lake. Monroe Police tried to piece together the prior evening's events while searching Lauren's apartment to see what clues it may turn up. Their goal was simple. Find Lauren and make sure she's safe. But her family quickly grew frustrated when those closest to Lauren became unwilling to answer authorities questions. So were they simply exercising caution or did they know something that they weren't willing to share?

[Payne Lindsay]

We'll be right back after a quick break. You're listening to up and vanished weekly.

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[Payne Lindsay]

Hey listeners, if you have a tip or theories about a case you want to share or a case of interest you'd like to recommend, then we want to hear from you. Email us casesenderfoot tv DM us on Instagram at UAV weekly or give us a call at 770-545-6411. Now here's John with this week's critical missing case.

[Celicia Stanton]

Hey Maggie. So on September 19th of 2024, 19 year old Arielle Farrell Oscar disappeared from the Coconut Creek, Florida area. Arielle was last seen near Winston Park Boulevard north in Coconut Creek. She was driving a white 2020 Honda Civic with tinted windows and Florida tag Alpha Mike 47 Mike Juliet. She was last seen wearing an unknown color shorts and shirt and she was also accompanied by a black and white dog. Arielle is of African American ethnicity with a height of 5 foot 4 inches weighing 250 pounds. She has black hair and brown eyes and she has a tattoo of a spider on her hand and a tattoo of a flower on her forearm. So, listeners, if you know any information about Ariel's whereabouts, please contact the Coconut Creek Police Department at 954-956-1482. And you can reference case number 24100-15196.

[Payne Lindsay]

Okay, now let's get back to the show.

[Maggie Freeling]

Breaking news for you right now this midday. This is in the case of Lauren Spierer and the lawsuit filed by her parents. A federal appeals court says a judge in Indianapolis was correct to dismiss the lawsuit against those three men last known to have seen her the night of her disappearance. Her parents had sued Corey Rossman, Michael Beth, and Jay Rosenbaum. The appeals court rejects the Spearers argument that the three had a legal duty to care for Lauren because of how intoxicated she was.

[Payne Lindsay]

So there are major red flags everywhere around Lauren. And that's something that really bothers me with cases like this. It's like everywhere you look, someone could have done something to her. And that's just a horrifying concept. So I want to ask you about her boyfriend, Jesse. He finds out that her phone is at the bar, and around 4:30pm he reports her missing. For a college kid, I think that's pretty responsible.

[Maggie Freeling]

And I think that is kind of goes back to the college thing. I don't think it's uncommon for college kids to sleep in. Sleep in past noon. I think that 4:30 in some ways actually seems kind of like. Wow.

[Payne Lindsay]

I was gonna say it seems like early. I'm like, oh, you, you knew by then. Yeah, you knew by then. You actually reported her missing in a timely manner. And he may or may not have known she was going. Well, I read that he did not know she was going out. So imagine that surprise being like, her phone's at a bar. She didn't go out last night. Like, I would be in a panic. I would be in a full panic.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah. Like, oh, that's my girlfriend's phone. Okay, so she went out last night. Then I'm sure he's texting her friends, being like, who'd she go out with? I'm wondering what if he eventually talked to Jay? And Jay's like, I saw her leave at like 4:30. I don't know, man. Like, I didn't see her after that. I wonder. Like, that's the stuff we don't know. Right?

[Payne Lindsay]

It's so frustrating. We don't know any. You would think we would know those details. That's what we were Talking about earlier, like, why don't we know those details in this case? And that's part of the problem the police have had with this case is they can't even piece together really what happened because everyone was so messed up.

[Maggie Freeling]

Right.

[Payne Lindsay]

No one really remembers. Cory has no idea. Allegedly. Cory just went to sleep that night. He is. And he doesn't really remember the evening, apparently.

[Maggie Freeling]

Oh, I'm sure he was blacked out. And I also feel like the parents. The parents of these kids are probably, like, you are not talking. You might give your initial statement, and then that is it. We were lawyering up. Like, I don't want this to be pointed. Like, put on you. The mystery surrounding this case is that, like, a lot of the guys maybe gave an initial statement, but, like, never talked again, still won't talk about it, won't do interviews about it.

[Payne Lindsay]

You know, everyone wants to say, that's weird. And, like, oh, they're not being helpful. I disagree. Like, I have seen so many people who want to be helpful, and them being helpful winds up to their wrongful conviction. Because if the police are not doing their job correctly and they just want to close a case, they could spin anything. Those kids said. I agree. And they're kids. They're under 26 years old. So the families filed a civil suit against Corey, Jay, and Michael. And the suits accused the defendants of negligence, alleging they supplied her with alcohol after she was already visibly intoxicated. Um, and they did not assure her safe return to her apartment, which likely led to her death.

[Maggie Freeling]

Poor Michael. He was just studying.

[Payne Lindsay]

Well, I've. So let's kind of have this discussion, right? Because there's two. There's two ends. It's like, okay, she's there. It is now your responsibility to make sure she's okay.

[Maggie Freeling]

Or is it. Or is it.

[Payne Lindsay]

But is it. Why is a drunk, in this instance, a drunk girl on your couch that you did not bring there? Why is that your responsibility?

[Maggie Freeling]

Now, realistically, these are minors. Most of them are minors. Some of them are, like, 21, 22.

[Payne Lindsay]

Right. She was drinking with a fake ID. Yeah.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah. And it's like, can you really put the duty of care on another drunk minor?

[Payne Lindsay]

Another drunk minor?

[Maggie Freeling]

Probably not really. And I think that's why these suits didn't really end up going anywhere, because I think it's really hard to say that they were actually in a position of responsibility. Right.

[Payne Lindsay]

Her family, I've noticed, they. They just seem a little different than other families. Like, watching the videos, they're. They're very like, Soft spoken, but really involved. And then I was hearing that they. It's just been too hard for them that they won't do interviews anymore. One of the videos, the mom is just, like, holding her mouth, like, holding her face. And it's just like, you can really see their pain. And I wonder if that's why we don't see as many, like, TV things, because the family's just like, we can't do it.

[Maggie Freeling]

I respect it.

[Payne Lindsay]

That's hard.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah. I think I would probably do the same thing if I were them.

[Payne Lindsay]

Even though we haven't seen as many documentaries, some celebrities have used their platform to try to create awareness for her, like Ryan Seacrest, Stephen Colbert, and Kim Kardashian. And I know that you have worked with Kim and she has tried to bring attention to a lot of other cases. Do you think that's helpful? Like, what was your experience working with her and celebrities getting involved in these things?

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah, yeah. I worked with Kim Kardashian on the System, which is her wrongful conviction show, which, I mean, that topic is very near and dear to your heart. And I do think, like, in the wake of not having a lot of press from the family, especially in this case, I wonder what someone would say against celebrity intervention, because I feel like it only would mount awareness. And I guess with anything, it's like if a perpetrator is the kind of person that wants that, you know, that wants to see what they've done on the big screen, per se, you know, sure, that's not, you know, great, but honestly, more than anything, it kind of feels like if I went missing or if my loved one went missing, I would hope Kim Kardashian would post about it. You know what I mean? Like, I think it's good, especially with a case like this, where it was like, the police force was small, kind of like Collegetown police force, I think, in over their heads. And, like, it's nice that there are people still posting about it and still trying to say, hey, this is not forgotten. If you have information, it's not too late. You can always change your mind and say something. And I guess I just hope that whoever posts, whatever, it's like the case that struck them, you know, that it is something that they feel, like, really passionate about versus someone in their PR department passing them things, and they're like, okay, whatever. Here you go. You know?

[Payne Lindsay]

All right, so gonna ask you the big question. What do you think happened?

[Maggie Freeling]

I definitely, after looking through Lauren's case and the stuff that was like, most obviously presented. I was kind of like, I don't think. Yeah, I was like, I don't really think it's any of these guys. It just doesn't make sense. It feels like people are trying to ham fist. It feels like a really bad situation that just, like, led up to her being vulnerable. But I bolded opportunist. I was like, opportunist. I mean, for sure.

[Payne Lindsay]

Meredith, this has been awesome. Thank you so much. And I look forward to talking again.

[Maggie Freeling]

I know. Me too. And now I am, like, furiously googling some of the things that you've talked about. So my heart goes out to Lauren Spears family. I, I, I. They're amazing.

[Payne Lindsay]

Yeah, Absolutely.

[Maggie Freeling]

It's so hard. Thank you so much, Maggie.

[Payne Lindsay]

Thank you.

[Maggie Freeling]

You're the best.

[Payne Lindsay]

When I decided to cover Lauren's case, I also reached out to Payne to get his take on what he thinks may have happened to her. We'll be back with our conversation after a quick break.

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[Celicia Stanton]

Hey, it's John from the up and Vanish team. If you're enjoying this episode, then you should check out the Tenderfoot original series. Undetermined in 2020. My good friend Dennis Cooper and I came across the case of Jessica Easterly Durning, who went missing from her New Orleans home back in 20. 19 days after her disappearance, her body was located just two and a half blocks away. Discovered by her own sister. Her cause and manner of death were classified as undetermined, but due to evidence of foul play, many believe someone else played a role in her suspicious disappearance. Our team linked up with investigative journalist Jessica Knoll and former detective Todd McComas in search for answers. Tune in and see what we discovered about Jessica Easterly Durning's untimely death. Listen to undetermined wherever you get your podcasts or binge ad free exclusively on Tenderfoot plus. Now back to the show Show.

[Payne Lindsay]

Payne, Lindsay, thanks for coming back on the show to talk about Lauren's case with me. Hey, so something that stands out to me is that this happened on a college campus, a place that many people, particularly Americans, spend some point of their life. But Michael Ciavolo, a private investigator that Lauren's family hired, has talked about how IU's campus isn't really in the safest area and he thinks that may have played a role in Lauren's disappearance. Here's what he had to say in a 2022 interview.

[Meredith Steadman]

You have a young, barefoot, very petite young woman who may have had one.

[Maggie Freeling]

Too many drinks walking home on a.

[Meredith Steadman]

Dark street in a college town.

[Payne Lindsay]

Having spent considerable time in Bloomington, there.

[Maggie Freeling]

Are a a lot of unsavory characters.

[Meredith Steadman]

Roaming the streets at night.

[Payne Lindsay]

So I want to get your thoughts on this because there are several leading theories of what might have happened to Lauren. Okay, so let's go through those. An accident, health emergency. We know she had a bad heart. My question is if something happened to her, let's say she does accidentally die, where did these drunk, obliterated, falling down, puking college kids put her?

[John Street]

That's a good question. We don't know. But they also could have done that in the morning. They could have woke up and been a little more sober or something. And she could have been deceased in their house or something and then taken some sort of action to cover it up. It doesn't have to have been exactly it at 4:35am it could have been hours later.

[Payne Lindsay]

I think it's hard for me to buy that because like thinking back to being a 20 year old college student, I'm not sure my first reaction is gonna be like hide the body. If I didn't do anything, I would just call the police and be like my friend isn't responding.

[John Street]

I think that goes back towards the maybe it was an accident or maybe we took some drugs and oh my God, she died on the hands of, on my hands, taking my drugs. I'm responsible. If you freak out and then you start covering it up, then you, then you're already in a big mess. And so it's probably easier for you in the moment to just keep going down that Path, once you start covering it up, it's. It's too late now. And that could have happened.

[Payne Lindsay]

Corey is the one that a lot of people like point to. Cause he was the one with her most of the time. But he allegedly went to sleep and she had been seen after that. So I can understand why someone like him would lawyer up, not talk to police. Like I don't know anything. What do I know? What do you think about that?

[John Street]

I mean, I never really judged the lawyering up thing because that's just exercising a right. And if you're super spooked and you had nothing to do with it, I mean, getting an attorney, if you could afford one, may not be a bad call. Right?

[Payne Lindsay]

Yeah.

[John Street]

It doesn't always indicate that you're guilty of something. I mean, the police like to say that it does because they don't want to go through your attorney. They want to talk to you. Yeah, I don't know. I feel like Jay has the most explaining to do. Just because she left his house at such a late hour and all disheveled. It's almost like, why'd he let her leave?

[Payne Lindsay]

Well, okay, so I'm trying to leave your house, right? Like we're friends, we're fucking wasted and I'm demanding. I'm leaving to go for a walk. What are you gonna do? I mean, are you gonna grab me?

[John Street]

No, I.

[Payne Lindsay]

So how are you gonna get me to stay in your home?

[John Street]

I couldn't ever make you stay if you really wanted to go. You'd be out the door. But I almost feel like I would tell somebody that you, hey, you know, Maggie was really drunk and she just left my house. I just wanna, you know, make sure she's okay. Right. Or just kind of putting that out there just so, I don't know, people are aware and concerned.

[Payne Lindsay]

I think you should make a public call out for Jay to talk with us if he wants to.

[John Street]

I think the only way for him to talk is if somebody does a little surprise, surprise visit, you know, which he could easily just say fuck off. But if he truly cares and is truly innocent, I think he'd have at least a sincere response. Whether he goes into detail or not.

[Payne Lindsay]

What do you think about opportunistic predator? There's this young 95 pound, 20 year old girl walking down the street at 4:30 in the morning.

[John Street]

It's totally possible and it's scary to think about that, that just a moment, a brief moment of vulnerability out there that somebody could just swiftly take advantage of that. But we've Seen it happen. You know, I think that it's totally possible. It just makes me wonder why no one saw anything. Why didn't they hear a scream or just some stuff that would like something that you would normally hear or see that points that way. You know, why isn't there some vehicle that somebody saw her get in or something?

[Payne Lindsay]

So there's a couple names that come up when talking about Lauren. Justin Wagers. He was a local man who lived 20 miles from Bloomington. His name came up because a partner called the police and mentioned he had just gotten out of prison. At the time that Lauren went missing in 2016, the FBI investigated his property. They searched with cadaver dogs. They indicated a potential hit, but no evidence was found. Obviously, Lauren wasn't found. They seized a truck from his property, but that's about it. And then there's Daniel Messel, and he is a local man, older guy, who was convicted of the 2015 murder of Hannah Wilson. And she was another student at IU who also went to Kilroy's bar that night. So a lot of people have suspected, you know, he killed one IU student from this bar that night. Maybe he killed another and this is actually how he got caught. His cell phone was found near her body.

[John Street]

Doesn't sound like the same M.O. i mean, if when someone just vanishes into thin air, basically doesn't is probably not the guy who leaves his cell phone at the crime scene. Also, this was after she went missing. So it's like he got worse at covering up crimes.

[Payne Lindsay]

So I have someone who can't be ruled out. Israel Keys is a prolific serial killer. He's the one from Alaska. Israel Keys would travel all the time and bury what he called a kill kit. It was like a. Like a bucket, like one of those Home Depot buckets, or like what Scott Peterson poured the concrete in. I forget what those are called. And he would bury guns, knives, rope, literally what you need to kill people, and then go back years later and check on it to, like, make sure it was there. He didn't have a type. It was just who was ever near his kit at the time. He's the craziest serial killer that no one knows about. He was an opportunistic killer when looking into him. Israel Keyes was actually in Indiana at the time of her disappearance. He was actually driving from Chicago to Vermont, which would bring him past Bloomington. We know for a fact that Israel Keys Googled Missing Persons Indiana, June 2011. And there was a photo of Lauren on his computer.

[John Street]

That's very Very sus. I mean, to me, that's like a smoking gun, a little bit, I think. So it's possible, too, that he didn't know her name.

[Payne Lindsay]

He probably didn't know her name.

[John Street]

You know what I'm saying?

[Payne Lindsay]

Yeah, totally. Totally.

[John Street]

He probably didn't.

[Payne Lindsay]

I think, to me, knowing that Keys was there at the time and knowing how vulnerable she was, I don't know if there would have been a scream or a struggle. I mean, she was falling on her face walking down the sidewalk. He was brazen. He was pretty freaking brazen, which he'd.

[John Street]

Have to be if she was walking out in public, even if it's the.

[Payne Lindsay]

Middle of the night and he was a big guy. I mean, he could have scooped her with his hand still on the steering wheel and, like, thrown her over him. I just think to me that seems more likely than like a bunch of college kids trying to figure out how to dispose of their friend's body. I think they would have left a trail. Did you buy Israel Keys yet?

[John Street]

I mean, you kind of sold me on that. Like, what are the odds, right? Cause you initially asked, could it have been a random predator? Well, what are the. Well, there was a serial killer in town that night.

[Payne Lindsay]

There was.

[John Street]

So, I mean, I don't know.

[Payne Lindsay]

There was a literal serial killer.

[John Street]

There wasn't a serial killer there, which is. That's crazy, right?

[Payne Lindsay]

Payne, as always, thank you for coming on to talk through Lauren's case with me and give your thoughts on all of this.

[John Street]

Of it, of course.

[Payne Lindsay]

It's hard to know the full picture of what happened that night. But I think the most important takeaway is that Lauren could have been anyone. I know for myself, I'm not always on thinking the worst case scenario at all times. Sometimes I just want to blow off some steam and relax and just not. But it's so important to still have our wits about us. As a 20 year old college kid, it's hard to grasp the severity of the world. And I don't know if I did. And I absolutely put myself in vulnerable, dangerous situations. It's been reported that soon after Lauren went missing, her parents drove around the area where she was last seen in the early morning to get a sense of what things would have looked like. It's believed they saw another young drunk, shoeless and walking alone. Lauren's mother made a social media post about it. Here is part of what it said. I think most college students believe they're invincible. I think that Lauren trusted that she was safe. Wrong place, wrong time, wrong people. She wasn't careful and she wasn't safe. Lauren's family and authorities have not given up the fight for answers.

[Meredith Steadman]

We can't thank the people people of Bloomington enough. It's just every day is another.

[Payne Lindsay]

Wave.

[Meredith Steadman]

Of support from people.

[Payne Lindsay]

An initial $100,000 reward was posted, which has been raised to 250,000. So they're just hoping that someone comes forward with more information to help them solve Lauren's case. If you have information, anything small could be big. Please speak up and help us find Lauren. Her disappearance is tragic, but it has made a difference through safety reforms on the Indiana University campus as well as a new law, the Indiana Lifeline Law, which encourages people to call 911 if someone needs intervention and even gives immunity to the caller for minor offenses like like underage drinking and public intoxication if they cooperate with law enforcement. Lauren Spear is described as being 4'11£95 with blue eyes and blonde hair. She was last seen barefoot, wearing black leggings and a white shirt. Lauren would now be 33 years old. You can find additional information about [e-mail] and finally, if you have any information about Lauren Spierer's disappearance, contact the Blooming Police Department at 812-339-4477 or email helpfindlaurenmail.com thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of up and Vanish Weekly. Be sure to tune in next Friday as we dig into another new case. Until next time.

[John Street]

Up and Vanish Weekly is a production of Tenderfoot TV in association with Odyssey. Your hosts are Maggie Freeling and myself, Payne Lindsay. The show is written by Maggie Freeling, myself and John Street. Executive producers are Donald Albright and myself. Lead producer is John Street. Additional production by Meredith Steadman and Mike Rooney. Research for the series by Jamie Albright, Celicia Stanton and Carolyn Tallmadge. Edit and mix by Dylan Harrington and Sean Nurney. Supervising producer is Tracy Kaplan. Artwork by Byron McCoy. Original music by makeup and vanity set. Special thanks to Oren Rosenbaum and the team at uta, Beck Media and Marketing and the Nord Group. For more podcasts like up and Vanish Weekly, search Tenderfoot TV on your favorite podcast app or visit us@Tenderfoot TV. Thanks for listening.

[Maggie Freeling]

When you think about businesses that are selling through the roof, like Aloe Allbirds or Skimming. Sure, you think about a great product, a cool brand and brilliant marketing. But an often overlooked secret is actually the businesses behind the business making, selling and for shoppers, buying. Simple. For millions of businesses, that business is Shopify Nobody does selling better than Shopify, home of the number one checkout on the planet and the not so secret secret with shop pay that boosts conversions up to 50%, meaning way less carts going abandoned and way more sales going. So if you're into growing your business, your commerce platform better be ready to sell whenever your customers are scrolling or strolling on the web, in your store, in their feed, and everywhere in between. Upgrade your business and get the same checkout experience as business powerhouses like Aloe Allbirds and Skims. Sign up for your $1 per month trial [e-mail] Odysseypodcast all lowercase go to shopify.com Odyssey podcast to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.com Odyssey podcast Ghosts, aliens, Skinwalkers?

[Meredith Steadman]

What do you believe? Well, brace yourself for Unexplained Encounters, the podcast where people from around the world share their most bizarre and terrifying experiences with us, and I narrate them to you from alleged sightings of werewolves.

[Payne Lindsay]

Jesus Christ, you better turn.

[Maggie Freeling]

Two demonic.

[Meredith Steadman]

Entities in the dark shadows of the room. We're not asking you to decide what to believe in. Rather decide what you fear.

[Payne Lindsay]

Get somebody out here.

[Meredith Steadman]

Follow and rate Unexplained Encounters on Spotify and Apple podcasts or go to eeriecast.com.