Upzoned Podcast Summary
Episode: DC Is Charging Thousands for Outdoor Dining. Is This a Good Idea?
Date: November 19, 2025
Host: Norm (Strong Towns)
Guest: Carly O (Strong Towns Chief of Staff)
Duration: ~30 minutes
Episode Overview
This episode unpacks a burning and very local issue: Washington D.C.’s new fees and regulations for “streeteries”—the outdoor dining spaces that converted parking into restaurant seating during COVID. Host Norm and guest Carly O analyze the policy shift, the underlying values and trade-offs, its impacts on local businesses, and what it tells us about how cities value public space.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
1. Background: What’s Changing in D.C.?
[01:25 – 04:39]
- D.C. introduced temporary “streetery” permits in 2020 to help restaurants survive the pandemic by dining outdoors in repurposed parking spaces.
- The city is now making the program permanent—but with stricter standards, mandatory safety barriers, and substantial new fees:
- $20 per square foot annual fee
- Jersey barriers ($250 each) required for safety
- Other costs: architectural plans and application fees
- These changes could amount to several thousand dollars annually for restaurants.
Notable Quote:
“If you have to pay $260 for your annual permit, okay, that's reasonable. But…you start to calculate…we're up to several thousand dollars at that point.”
— Norm, [03:32]
2. Reflecting on the Origin of Streeteries
[04:39 – 08:03]
- Carly notes that COVID-era rapid responses like streeteries exemplified “the next smallest thing we can do” in a crisis—aligning with Strong Towns values.
- Cities are now reacting to complaints and trying to make a temporary measure permanent, but perhaps too hastily and with measures not calibrated to local needs.
- The ongoing shift highlights the difficulty moving from emergency action to enduring policy.
Notable Quote:
“Gosh, there might be some unintended consequences here.”
— Carly, [07:45]
3. Trade-offs: Parking vs. Productivity
[08:03 – 11:52]
- One case: a restaurant occupying 12.5 parking spaces generates $4 million in gross sales, $438,000 in tax revenue—much higher than the revenue from parking meters.
- Norm stresses that city space must serve a higher purpose, and that productive use (“places people want to be, that generate commerce”) usually trumps the value of idle parking.
Notable Quote:
“We take this really dim view of never really seeing the cost when it comes to vehicles. But every other type of use…you need to put that in a private storage locker. You can’t just do that out there.”
— Norm, [09:33]
4. Lessons from Other Cities (Lafayette’s Parklet Program)
[11:52 – 14:52]
- Carly shares Lafayette’s experience: local ‘parklet’ policies predate COVID and were designed with community buy-in. Temporary pilots (like “parking day” pop-ups) built support before a permanent rollout.
- D.C.’s challenge: scaling a citywide policy without tailoring to diverse neighborhood contexts makes the program less responsive.
Notable Quote:
“A Jersey barrier may be a perfectly reasonable thing on one street, and it may feel like a perfectly ridiculous thing on another…”
— Carly, [13:08]
5. Community Pushback & Values Tensions
[14:52 – 19:05]
- Georgetown Citizens Association cites public safety, traffic, rodents, and loss of historic character as concerns. Some streeteries are unused or misused (e.g., for storage).
- Norm and Carly emphasize the importance of first principles: what does the city value in its public realm?
- Abrupt regulatory changes can harm businesses who’ve adapted to previous rules.
Notable Quotes:
“People's perception of what the big issue is…is often very clouded by their particular instance.”
— Norm, [15:25]
“It's ideally not the local government's role to be kind of changing the rules…so that they can't plan and they can't adapt.”
— Carly, [18:08]
6. The Broader Question: Who Gets to Use Public Space, and How?
[19:05 – 25:21]
- New rules (requiring seasonality, no full enclosures, etc.) are seen by some as “land grabs”—private businesses gaining privileged use of city property.
- Norm challenges the double standard: cars are given free/cheap storage but restaurants pay a premium.
- Making “streets productive” should mean maximizing their benefit—sometimes that’s commerce, sometimes social space.
Notable Quotes:
“The movement and storage of automobiles, we discount it so heavily that everything else we're asking to give an account for.”
— Norm, [21:20]
“Every street should earn its keep or a street is a terrible thing to waste.”
— Norm, [22:24]
7. Improvement, Adaptation, and Next Steps
[25:21 – 26:02]
- Carly hopes D.C. can better distinguish between localized management issues and system-wide failures—suggests ongoing tweaks, not abrupt overhauls.
- Both agree a policy of continuous improvement, with space to adapt, is key.
Notable Quote:
“It seems like their response is…maybe a little too dramatic for where the community has been the last five years.”
— Carly, [25:45]
8. The Built Environment and Resistance to Change
[26:02 – 27:11]
- Norm reflects on the tension between preserving “finished” neighborhoods and allowing innovation or evolution (e.g., with food trucks, temporary structures).
- Some resistance is rooted in a desire to “lift the drawbridge” to new people or uses.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- [09:33] Norm: “We take this really dim view of never really seeing the cost when it comes to vehicles.”
- [18:08] Carly: “It's ideally not the local government's role to be kind of changing the rules on businesses in such a way that they can't plan and they can't adapt.”
- [21:20] Norm: “The movement and storage of automobiles, we discount it so heavily that everything else we're asking to give an account for.”
- [22:24] Norm: “Every street should earn its keep or a street is a terrible thing to waste.”
- [25:45] Carly: “It seems like their response is…maybe a little too dramatic for where the community has been the last five years.”
Timestamps for Key Segments
- [01:25] – Introduction to D.C.'s new streetery regulations
- [04:39] – The origin and value of rapid COVID-era responses
- [08:03] – Economic impact: Outdoor dining vs. parking productivity
- [11:52] – Lafayette’s approach; lessons for D.C.
- [14:52] – Public complaints and value tensions
- [19:05] – Land use, fees, and fairness: Public vs. private benefit debate
- [22:24] – How should public space add value?
- [25:21] – How D.C. might find a better balance going forward
Takeaway Insights
- Emergency Innovation: COVID proved cities can pivot fast and expand public realm uses—should this spirit persist?
- Economic Value vs. Status Quo: Streets can be more productive (for cities and businesses) with outdoor dining, but not without some local friction.
- One Size Fits None?: Citywide rules rarely fit all neighborhoods—local flexibility matters.
- Continuous Adaptation: The best urban policies invite periodic tweaks, not sudden reversals.
- True Costs of Public Space: There’s a double standard—why is car storage nearly free but outdoor dining expensive?
Overall Tone:
Conversational, thoughtful, civic-minded, occasionally wry. Both host and guest aim for nuance, empathizing with both restaurateurs and city officials, while ultimately advocating for flexible, productive, and people-oriented use of city streets.