B (5:43)

You know, what stands out to me is the possibilities that are present with this site, as well as the recognition that this is somewhat like an old dilapidated school building or an old dilapidated park. It looks a lot like just a public asset that is now in need of some tlc and as a result of being in a neglected state, actually contributes to some of the problems of, you know, criminal activity or people using it in sort of ways that don't always like, build up the neighborhood, because that's what happens when we're not actually paying close attention to it, when there's not much activity taking place there. And what's. What strikes me is, you know, the strongtown's headquarters is in an old renovated school that was due to be torn down. And a group, the friends of that school, emerged and said, we can retain the structure and we can give it new life. And what they're proposing is actually very much within reach in terms of taking that structure and saying it is past its purpose as a road bridge for vehicles, but it has tremendous potential as a connection point, as a way of bringing together sort of this cultural nexus of, you know, one state and another state bringing people into those spaces. And undoubtedly the idea that you. You can begin to activate this with an island park and a few other sort of features like that, that is the way in which you also begin to address some of the social ills that are associated with this bridge. Keeping it under barricade is actually contributing to the sense that it is off limits except to those that are in some state of need or some state of, you know, willingness to just ignore what the rules require of them. And in that context, when you can open that up, that's how you bring that life back into it. The school that the strong town's headquarters in does not have squatters in it. And the reason it doesn't have squatters in it is previously, when it was a dilapidated building, it might have. Now it doesn't, because it's activated again. It's. It has a sense of. Of character and purpose and identity. And that would seem to be, to me, one of the things that they should be working towards. And so when you look at it, I'm curious what the $9 million that is set aside for it actually is needed for, because the bridge stands as is and it's unlikely to plummet into the river, you know, any day now, from what I said, what I understand, like, that rehab would be a deepening of sort of its longevity, but doesn't. Isn't required right now. And so from a strong town's perspective, I would ask, like, what's the next smallest thing that you could do here? Remove the barricades, what's the next smallest thing? Make sure that it's not suitable for vehicles to pass through, but that others are able to navigate that space. And then what's the next thing is find, you know, find a way to create destinations, find a way to create an experience in that corridor. And yeah, if it's going to benefit the folks at Brattleboro more than it does the. The folks that are on Hinsdale and the other side of the border, turning that over to an entity that can raise funds from Both sides of this of the state line makes a ton of sense. You know, Friends of Island park or some of those groups do Yeoman's work of actually taking existing assets that have lingering value, but could definitely be unleashed again. And I think that that's something that's really compelling. And I think you've got some design ideas and other things up your sleeve that even have other projects that you've seen have worked well. Do you have any thoughts on. On what that might look like?

A (9:13)

Well, I have so many thoughts here, but I really have seen and experienced a lot of circumstances where places have kind of trapped themselves in a downward spiral because this idea that improving public space is going to attract more crime or vagrant behavior has. I mean, it's a really common argument that people use against adding benches to places or really adding any improvement to public spaces. But as you pointed out, doing nothing to improve these spaces does not fix the problem. It exasperates it. It creates space that everyone else doesn't want to be. And so that's really going to be the primary activity that you get. And just thinking about people who might be committing crimes, I feel like they're not going to go to vibrant public spaces where tons of people are. And to the extent that they are, I mean, it's not going to be the same situation as what you see when you're kind of in a desolate, empty area. I think when you go to really, really busy public spaces in Europe, you might get pickpocketing or something like that. But it's very different than what we're seeing in the United States with these empty, desolate areas and infrastructure that's being unused and how that becomes kind of an attraction for people engaging in nefarious behavior. So that, to me, is really interesting that so often that is the argument against actually improving spaces. And it's really common in a lot of places. But this does remind me of. We've had a couple of similar situations in Kansas City. We had the Buck o' Neill Bridge, which was formerly called the Broadway Bridge, that was demolished recently. It basically was demolished in 2024 after a new bridge was put in its place. And it was kind of sad because the new bridge, while it was definitely needed because the Broadway Bridge didn't connect in the way that it needed to connect to the other side. The Broadway Bridge was this, like, beautiful historic landmark, very similar to this bridge. And the new highway that we put in the bridge is just. It has no real architectural interest or significance. And so, you know, when that when that bridge gets outdated, I can't imagine anybody would be sad to see, to see it go when one day maybe it's replaced. But yeah, it's, it is unfortunate that we lose these historic landmarks because we can't figure out how to fund an alternative use for it. But we also do have a bridge in Kansas City that is being reutilized as like it's going to be basically an entertainment district over a river. Yeah. So that is actually going to be the Rock Island Bridge which is in a different part of the city outside of the historic West Bottoms. And it connects Kansas City, Missouri to Kansas City, Kansas. Although I think it's primarily located in the state of Kansas. But they've come up with a way for both, both sides to fund its improvement. So that might be a model for this town and in other towns with this similar kind of issue to look into. Because the Rock Island Bridge does have a funding model that, that supports kind of the bi state approach. And it also has an approach where the bridge is not just being used as like a pedestrian bike corridor, but there's going to be like event venues built onto the bridge and there's going to be, I mean it's amazing. There's going to be places you can get food and beer and sit. So it's actually going to be activated by private restaurants that are leasing space on this bridge, kind of like a food court and people will be able to have weddings on this bridge and host events and parties and that sort of thing. So it's kind of amazing. They have like, if you go to the website, they have diagrams of what it looks like. They're basically building out a whole entertainment district on this thing. So I don't necessarily suggest that that's the only approach for this particular town, but I think it's worth thinking about how to promote activation by private users that have an interest in the space. I think that goes not just for bridges but any public space as much as you can have like local businesses along it or non profits or users that can consistently promote activation of the space, even, even building some density around it so residents actually live on it and you have eyes on the space and maybe people's balconies that where they can sit out on their balconies and look down at the bridge and at the space. Anything to get eyes on it I think is kind of the anecdote for addressing these crime concerns.

B (14:39)

Yeah. And what stood out to me you mentioned in the article, it talks that somebody proposed, well maybe we could move the state border. And this is where at strong towns, we say, you know, humbly observe where people are struggling and then identify, like, what is the next smallest thing that you can do to address that struggle. The next smallest thing in this case is not moving the state border. Also, it is not commissioning a study from, you know, renowned landscape engineering firm to, like, figure out what to do. The next smallest thing is try small things. And that looks like just installing a few benches, finding some solar powered lighting. So that way you can do sort of like path lighting over the bridge to reclaim it as pedestrian space. That is not scary, but actually has some function to it. And then another key part of it is asking, like, is there anything that is an extension of Brattleboro that can be sort of merged into the identity of that very bridge? I am assuming if they've done the work, the diligence of saying, hey, we would look at 9 million in terms of whatever that project was, that they already know from the structural engineers whether this thing is going to disappear into the water tomorrow or not. In that case, you might have to figure out, like, load limits, for example. We can't have heavy trucks on there, so we need to be careful. Like, we can do an artist market, but we can't do a farmer's market. You're like, okay, that actually helps us to then narrow the scope of the types of activities we should start to see here. Music is great opportunity. You know, you're in the middle of a really cool area with access to a beautiful sort of natural island setting. And I think that's the idea of, like, what is the next smallest thing that you can do? But then go and continue to do that process. And my worry with sites like this is that it goes through this exhaustion and then the big, big thing stages. So everybody gets exhausted because nothing is being done. And yes, bad things happen on the bridge, quote, unquote. Then people are like, well, we have to do something. And then a big idea is proposed. And it's like, well, we're exhausted, so we may as well. And most often that means demolition. However, we would say, like, people already are coming up with ideas. They're already talking, so give them the impetus. Say if you create the Friends of the Bridge Pro, you know, nonprofit, we'll work together to find that funding. We'll work together to ask the state to, like, assist in that project. And you could get to some really cool outcomes as you work at that together as a community. And I just think if we take the same view of, like, this is Somewhat like a dilapidated school building that can be repurposed. It's like an old husk of a, of a warehouse or of a factory that we can begin to ask those questions. I mean, you're involved in a school rehabilitation project yourself, like trying to take it on to look like we know that this can be more. So what's the first more thing that it can be and then what's the next more thing that it can be? And like you said, bringing eyes there, bringing participation and beginning to, you know, give, give it a sense of, of character within your space. Encouraging public art. So that way it becomes like adorned with the fact that it doesn have to now function as a vehicle pass through. So in that case, you actually can encourage people to linger and people will want to stay there. The moment that the vehicles pounding the bridge are no longer passing by and the noise comes right down, you can hear the river. I'm like, I'd give anything to be able to, you know, hear the river. Depending on how much trail access they have at the, at the base. There's something special of being on a bridge. We, we do love that experience, especially if you can also provide shade, like you said, find ways for food vendors to set up and do cool stuff like that. So the possibilities are endless. But one of the things that gives me hope about this is that Brattleboro actually won the Strongest Town contest two years ago. So Brattleboro, Vermont, they came together as a community. They were super, like engaged. You, I would definitely recommend. If you're listening to this, go check out the video that we did about Brattleboro from two years ago on the Strong Towns YouTube channel. And then because last year we featured Mami Ohio, very different context. And yet they too were grappling with real issues. And by the time that this comes out, our third major video on a Strongest Town contest winner is going to come out about Marion, Ohio. And. And each of them are beautiful videos in part because they're, they're the recognition. These places are grappling with real needs and not shying away from them. And I look at a thing like this where it's like grapple with the real need. It can't just be. Well, we think that one bad person or a few bad people are going to cross the bridge. So let's keep it closed. It has far greater utility and I think that we really need to capture that.

A (19:05)

Yeah, just looking at a map of this town, it just has such great bones and beautiful little buildings and it looks like it has a lot of really cool local businesses. You know, to. To the point of the New Hampshire side, though, if you look at this bridge on a map, it's like the town of Brattleboro. It just hugs the border of Vermont and New Hampshire. And that bridge is just outside of their downtown. So while the bridge is directly connected to downtown, it is outside of it. It is in a different state. And then that bridge goes across a portion of the river. It goes to an island that is not utilized. It looks like there's just forest on the island. And then a bit of road goes through the island. It goes across another small bridge and into, you know, the mainland of. Of this. This other town. And when you look at the mainland of this other town in this portion where the river connects, that looks like there is a. There's like a little big box store of some sort, like a general store. There's a couple of other. There's like a marina. But there it's mostly suburban. It's really unactivated, and it's very rural. So it looks like it's almost entirely like a Nash, a natural area with conservation. And it is several miles until you get to another downtown. So I can understand the point that, hey, investing in this bridge on the New Hampshire side isn't really going to give us a ton of direct economic benefit in the near term until they redevelop that side of the bridge or do something different. There's. I understand that there's not a lot of upside from their perspective in how they could economically benefit from being the ones to maintain and take care of the bridge. So having some kind of bi state agreement where the town of Brattleboroughs who, they would definitely benefit from this bridge because it would connect to this natural area. It would connect to trailheads. It would. If you had a trail that went all the way down to the other town, it would, you know, it would provide that connectivity. But I think it's clear that that bridge really is a landmark of a town that it's not in the state of. So kind of an interesting point there and why. I think if Brattleboro wants this to happen, it probably needs to be an investment that they make to help maintain this bridge and make it happen.

B (21:56)

And it raises questions for Hinsdale whether or not they're willing to allow that area where the marina is and sort of that the terminus of the bridge to be allowed to develop to the next increment of development. Because almost certainly if you create an opportunity like this, you would expect to see that. I think is Leon Crier that's done a great job of like showing how, how cities, especially up against waterways, the pressure will build or sort of the opportunity builds. And then you get a first few pioneers that build on the other side of the river. Those would have been the people that built in that area. And then if you allow it, the nucleus of a new sort of town center can really begin to emerge there and have a great sort of passageway that actually benefits both sides. However, most of the time there's a recognition, no, we'd rather just leave it the way that it is. And so then you get this mismatch of on the one side of the bridge, you've got, you know, vibrant downtown. The other side you've got a deliberate attempt to not be that. And that will be, I think, the bigger reason why we're probably not going to see action on this. So I know we said no studies, but we should probably go do a study trip there. It looks lovely and I know you're up for time, so we probably have to wrap up as well. But yeah, can't wait to learn more and see what they come up with.

A (23:07)

Well, man, there's so much we could, we could say about this, but maybe, maybe we'll revisit it and we won't have time to do the up zone or the down zone today. So I'm sorry to say that one thing I want to say though before we finish today is that did you notice the name of the marina that is next to this bridge?

B (23:29)

I didn't know. What is it?

A (23:30)

It's called Norm's Marina.

B (23:33)

Oh, there we go. It's my people.

A (23:35)

I thought this is why you picked it.

B (23:37)

That's awesome. It's probably some 95 year old man named Norm because it is a very old man's name and I love that it's Norm's Marina. Oh, man, now I really need to go study this place.

A (23:47)

Yeah, it sounds like you need to study it. Okay, well, let's keep an eye on this story and maybe we can pick it back up in the future.

B (23:54)

Yeah. And a shout out to Norm.

A (23:56)

Yeah, shout out to Norm. All right, thank you very much for joining me today and thank you everyone for listening to another episode of Upzoned. Thanks Norm.

B (24:06)

Thank you, Abby. Let me show you what I'm about to do. This episode was produced by Strong Towns, a non profit movement for building financially resilient communities. If what you heard today matters to you, you deepen your connection by becoming a Strong Towns member@strongtowns.org membership.