Incremental Development: Ladies Power Hour

Summary

Podcast Summary: Upzoned – Episode: "Incremental Development: Ladies Power Hour"

Release Date: September 25, 2024
Host: Abby Newsham
Guests: Bernice Gradle (Preservation Buffalo Niagara, Buffalo, NY) and Ali Quindlen (Architect and Landscape Architect, Fayetteville, AR)

---

Introduction

In this special episode of Upzoned, hosted by Abby Newsham of Strong Towns, the conversation takes a unique turn as Abby welcomes two esteemed guests, Bernice Gradle and Ali Quindlen, for an "Incremental Development: Ladies Power Hour." This episode delves deep into the nuances of incremental development, zoning codes, and the pivotal role women play in shaping resilient and vibrant communities.

---

Profiles of the Guests

Ali Quindlen (02:24):
Ali is a licensed architect and landscape architect based in Fayetteville, Arkansas. She helms a design firm focused on creating walkable, economically sustainable spaces and engages in small-scale real estate development, including historic preservation. As the Executive Director of the Incremental Development Alliance, Ali collaborates with fellow professionals to promote adaptable zoning codes that facilitate incremental development.

Bernice Gradle (05:20):
Bernice operates Buffalo Development in Buffalo, New York, specializing in small-scale development and construction since 2007. Currently the Executive Director at Preservation Buffalo Niagara, she leads action-based preservation initiatives, including stabilization programs and apartment renovations. Bernice brings extensive experience from her tenure on the Buffalo Zoning Board, where she played a key role in transforming the Buffalo Green Code.

---

Key Discussion Topics

1. Zoning Code Reforms for Small-Scale Development

Ali emphasizes the critical need for eliminating minimum lot size and width requirements, which historically were implemented to restrict affordable housing and maintain single-family home dominance. She states:

"[...] eliminating any sort of minimum around how big the lot has to be and then single family zoning, just letting people put a second unit in." (17:50)

Bernice echoes this sentiment, highlighting her success in Buffalo by removing minimum parking requirements, which she considers a bold but necessary step. She adds:

"Remove minimums, which we all know, right? Do it. And we did it in Buffalo." (13:37)

The guests discuss the negative impacts of stringent zoning laws, including inflated housing costs and stifled diversity in housing types. They advocate for zonal flexibility to accommodate sneaky duplexes and accessory dwelling units (ADUs), enabling residents to adapt their living spaces to changing needs without significant financial burdens.

2. The Philosophy of Incremental Development

Bernice introduces the concept of "cute equity," where incremental, budget-conscious improvements can significantly enhance a property's appeal and community value over time. She shares her approach:

"Do what you can with what you have, where you are." (38:11)

Ali expands on this by stressing the moral imperative of making continuous, small-scale changes to improve living environments, stating:

"Incremental everything in relation to... we're making the place that people live." (42:58)

Their discussion underscores that incremental development isn't about quick fixes but about building a foundation for sustainable, long-term community enhancement.

3. Building Creative and Attractive Communities

Both guests highlight the importance of aesthetic enhancements in development projects. Bernice discusses her strategic use of color and preservation of original architectural elements to create unique and inviting spaces. For example:

"Being bold with color. There's nothing wrong with color." (26:48)

Ali shares examples from Fayetteville, comparing local projects to well-loved neighborhoods in cities like Paris, where unit density per acre doesn't necessarily correlate with neighborhood livability or charm.

4. The Role of Women in Small-Scale Development

Bernice passionately advocates for increased female participation in development, emphasizing the community-centric and nurturing qualities women bring to the field. She remarks:

"Community conscious, community loving development is what we need." (43:28)

Ali shares her experiences with diversity and inclusivity in the Incremental Development Alliance, noting a rise in women and developers of color joining the movement. She reflects on the historical barriers women faced in real estate and celebrates the progress made:

"It's getting easier and less surprising to have female small developers." (47:22)

5. Inclusivity and Diversity in Development Practices

Ali highlights efforts to make development training more accessible to diverse groups, including offering Spanish-language programs and supporting rural developers. She emphasizes the importance of integrating life aspects, such as parenting, into professional environments to foster inclusivity.

"Making all of our spaces really conducive to little kids, the more that we can make... the more that we get to keep everybody involved." (53:22)

---

Inspirational Insights and Personal Projects

Bernice shares her passion for preserving architectural heritage on a tight budget, focusing on incremental upgrades that maintain the character and history of buildings. She illustrates how small, thoughtful changes can transform properties without significant financial strain.

Ali discusses upcoming initiatives, including National Field Trips and workshops aimed at fostering collaboration and sharing best practices among small-scale developers. She expresses excitement about community engagement and learning from diverse projects.

Abby touches on her personal projects, such as learning to paint professionally and studying Spanish, emphasizing the importance of continuous personal growth and creativity in professional development.

---

Down Zone: Book Recommendations and Personal Endeavors

In the closing segment, Bernice recommends "Oppie's Berlin Diaries" by Gabrielle, a gripping account of her grandfather's involvement with the Nazis and her journey to reconcile this legacy. Abby shares her newfound passion for painting and Spanish, inspired by her interactions with Gabrielle.

---

Concluding Thoughts

This episode of Upzoned powerfully underscores the transformative potential of incremental development when guided by inclusive, community-focused leadership. Bernice Gradle and Ali Quindlen provide invaluable perspectives on dismantling restrictive zoning laws, fostering creative community enhancements, and championing diversity within the development sector. Their insights offer a blueprint for building resilient, vibrant communities through thoughtful, small-scale interventions.

---

Notable Quotes

1. Ali Quindlen on zoning reforms:

   "Eliminating any sort of minimum around how big the lot has to be and then single family zoning, just letting people put a second unit in."
   17:50

2. Bernice Gradle on removing minimums:

   "Remove minimums, which we all know, right? Do it. And we did it in Buffalo."
   13:37

3. Bernice Gradle on incremental development:

   "Do what you can with what you have, where you are."
   38:11

4. Ali Quindlen on making places better:

   "We're making the place that people live."
   42:58

5. Bernice Gradle on community-focused development:

   "Community conscious, community loving development is what we need."
   43:28

6. Ali Quindlen on the progress of women in development:

   "It's getting easier and less surprising to have female small developers."
   47:22

7. Bernice Gradle on inclusivity:

   "Making all of our spaces really conducive to little kids, the more that we can make... the more that we get to keep everybody involved."
   53:22

---

Connect with the Guests:

• Bernice Gradle: Preservation Buffalo Niagara
• Ali Quindlen: Kronberg Urbanist Architects
• Upzoned Show Notes: strongtowns.org/upzone

---

Upzoned continues to explore pivotal stories and in-depth conversations that shape the Strong Towns movement. Subscribe to stay informed and inspired.

Transcript

[Rachel]

Hi, it's Rachel here, program director at Strong Towns. I'm popping in to invite you to our upcoming Locomotive Training sessions, a series of live workshops, or you can watch the recordings afterwards. Focused on equipping advocates with the tools they need to make their places stronger, these workshops take place every Thursday at 12pm Central, starting Sept. 12 and ending Oct. 31. Join for one session or pick up a round trip ticket to attend them all. We're covering everything from getting kids to school more safely to investing in housing that strengthens neighborhoods without pushing people out, to building third places through tactical urbanism. And we've got a whole range of guest speakers coming at you from organizations like Better Block, Blue Zones, Incremental Development alliance, and more. Plus, every session includes a featured Strongtown staff speaker. You can hear from Carly, Chuck, Norm, Ed, so many cool people. So join me on this tour by grabbing a ticket [e-mail] local motive. Tickets are $25 for a single session or 1,25 for all eight sessions in the round trip, plus a couple extra bonuses. And all of that cost goes to supporting the Strong Towns mission, educating local advocates like you to make your cities and towns more resilient. Also, members get that cool member discount. So head to strongtowns.org locomotive to get your ticket today. Thank you so much.

[Abby Newsham]

This is Abby and you are listening to Upzoned. Hey everyone, thanks for listening to another episode of Upzone, a show where we take a big story that touches the Strong Towns conversation each week. And we upzone it, we talk about it in depth. I'm Abby Newsham, a planner in Kansas City, and today we are doing something a little bit different. So Chuck's out of town, and you know what that means. We're doing an incremental development Ladies Power Hour. And I have Bernice Gradle from Buffalo, New York, and Ali Quindlen from Fayetteville, Arkansas, taking over the show today, which is going to be really, really fun. So welcome. Allie and Bernice. I'm really glad to have you on today.

[Ali Quindlen]

Thanks for having us, Abby. This is always fun to get together. And we had. Bernice and I used to have a podcast during the COVID days with our friend Jen, who was sadly unable to join us today. And so it's fun to be back in this format with her.

[Abby Newsham]

Yeah, well, I think you should probably relaunch that. And I feel like we should have, like, wine right now. It's like we're doing like a virtual hangout. So, yeah, we should do this more often.

[Bernice Gradle]

We Should. Jen is always. I'm. Jen just had something come up. But she, if she was here, she's, you know, I always say she's good trouble. So she always brings some really good trouble with her.

[Abby Newsham]

Yeah, that's a good way of putting it. Well, so let's just start. For people who don't know who you guys are, I know a lot of listeners probably follow you guys, follow your work, but you guys are also like, like myself, I always say I'm a manic generalist and I feel like you guys are too. And a lot of women in this space are. So I don't even want to do your intros because it's like, well, they're XYZ abcd. So I'm gonna throw it to you, Ali, if you can give us kind of a quick introduction, talk a little bit about who you are and what you do.

[Ali Quindlen]

Yeah, absolutely. So I am both a licensed architect and licensed landscape architect. And so I do a lot of work through my design firm. I've got a practice with a current mostly remote team of eight doing traditional design consulting, trying to make really beautiful, walkable, lovable, economically sustainable places nationally. And then I'm also a small scale real estate developer. So I have both a new construction arm that we do mostly small format housing, really tiny lot, really creative code hatch type. We build our own design work and then often keep it. So I'm also, you know, have a little property management arm of the things that we've built and kept and rent out now. And then I've also got an arm of that company that does historic preservation work. So we'll buy really big old buildings that need lots of love and fully renovate them as the general contractor and then often hold them for at least a little while. And either I live in them or we rent them out. And then in my spare time, I am also the current executive director of the Incremental Development Alliance. And then I have a really fun little code company with my fellow Inc. Dev faculty members and besties, Eric Kronberg and Elizabeth Ward Williams, who are Kronberg Urbanists. And so we've done a model code to promote incremental development. And so for towns that aren't seeing the kind of projects that they want and want an easily adoptable, you know, ready, off the shelf solution. So that's if it touches housing, we joke that we touch it is more or less our story.

[Abby Newsham]

I love it. Bernice, please introduce yourself.

[Bernice Gradle]

Sure. Bernice. I'm in Buffalo, New York. I think people know me because they associate Buffalo, New York with a little lady named Bernice. And that's me. I've been doing small scale development since 2007 and on my own since 2012 with a company called Buffalo Development, which includes construction. Very similar actually to Ally, except for I don't have. I'm not an architect or landscape architect, but we do restoration work, we do some urban planning work. We, you know, I've been doing teaching and consulting work for many, many years on projects all around the country, but also doing our own projects in Buffalo. And I would say I was on the zoning board for many years, but I just got off. That used to be my sort of power play. Say I'm on the zoning board, but now I'm not on it anymore. So I guess that's a bit of big shift. And I also am now the executive director at Preservation Buffalo Niagara, where we. A nonprofit where we do a lot of very action based preservation work. So we have stabilization program, revolving loan, we're doing apartment renovations, local landmark applications, all kinds of very direct action things. So it's like similar to Ally. This is why we're friends. It's like if it's in Buffalo and it has buildings and I'm probably trying to touch it, you know, get it and resolve it. So I don't know, in my spare time, it's. I just relax. I don't know, there's, you know, it's my spare time, but most of my life is all housing, buildings, urbanism, you know, catching up on every strong tones article I can, you know, all the things. So I mainly spend my time in buildings. And it's. I am a cancer crab horoscope. So I. Home is where the heart is for me. So it's. It's really important.

[Abby Newsham]

I love it. What are you, Allie?

[Ali Quindlen]

I'm a library. So balance and beauty, which, you know.

[Bernice Gradle]

And design.

[Ali Quindlen]

And design. That's right. We're just trying to make really beautiful, lovely walkable places and have everybody get along so that it also aligns.

[Abby Newsham]

Interesting. I'm a Sagittarius. What does that mean? Like, what would that like?

[Bernice Gradle]

December, your Jen is a Sagittarius. Jen is a Sagittarius. Like you like order and structure. And is a fire sign, right? Isn't Sagittarius a fire sign?

[Abby Newsham]

I think it is. Yeah.

[Bernice Gradle]

So there's definitely a little fieriness in you, I'm sure.

[Abby Newsham]

Yeah, 100% for sure.

[Ali Quindlen]

I'm also glad that we've made our ladies happy hour safe now by talking about astrology for long enough that we will have lost any of the boys who are not interested in the rest of this topic. So really good job, ladies.

[Abby Newsham]

Yeah, everyone's dropped off.

[Bernice Gradle]

Can I take the astrology one more step?

[Abby Newsham]

Yeah, let's see.

[Bernice Gradle]

Okay, so we're trying to. We're trying to save all these churches in Buffalo. We're trying to save all these churches that are being closed, and one of the restrictions is no fortune telling and no astrology.

[Abby Newsham]

What are you supposed to do in them?

[Bernice Gradle]

The Catholic Church, because we're like, well, we would like to buy the buildings. We would like to save them. Right. The Catholic Church, like, well, if you're going to do astrology in them, you cannot buy them.

[Abby Newsham]

Yeah. No crystals, no yoga.

[Ali Quindlen]

No crystals, no yoga. So no white. That's what I'm hearing. Okay, cool.

[Abby Newsham]

Yeah, I love.

[Bernice Gradle]

I love this podcast already. This is why we need.

[Ali Quindlen]

You know, Bernice, I want to give you one more shout out too, that you really, I feel like, glossed over in your self intro, which is you were on the Buffalo zoning board when the Buffalo Green code was passed, and that was a huge achievement in terms of changing and re legalizing a lot of incredible buildings and mixed use that is historic to Buffalo's fabric. So I want to give you that shout out too, because you can just say I'm a former zoning board member.

[Abby Newsham]

Yeah, that's like a really big deal.

[Bernice Gradle]

Yeah, former. And also the minimum parking requirements. You know, everyone doesn't. Not everyone knows that story, but it was me that had to make the buttons to get them to pass and get the minimum parking requirements taken away in our zoning code. So, yeah, it's me and friends. And friends. But I was the one making the buttons and, like, leading all the meetings and being kind of sneaky and cute, try to get these minimum parking requirements gone in the city of Buffalo. So, yeah, so I appreciate that. Shout out. You're right. That's a great.

[Abby Newsham]

I also, I do love that between the three of us and other ladies, you know, on, like, the text threads that we have, it's like we all, like, love talking about zoning, which is so unique. Like, I don't know anyone else that I can just, like, geek out about zoning with. So that's very special. And I don't know, maybe we should be doing it on Twitter. But again, maybe not.

[Ali Quindlen]

But, you know, there was a funny post this weekend that was like, asking urbanist women to introduce themselves and, you know, so that we could all connect. And I was laughing because, yeah, all of us we're not out on social media making posts. We are inside our text threads talking about sending project photos of construction sites and new zoning hack ideas.

[Abby Newsham]

And feelings and personal things.

[Ali Quindlen]

And feelings. And then Jen sends us our horoscopes and we analyze them through what it means for the financial market.

[Abby Newsham]

Yeah.

[Bernice Gradle]

Yes. We're like. And everything. And everything. Even the horoscopes relate back to zoning and planning and urbanism. Yeah. You know, it's like.

[Abby Newsham]

And there's like, me who's like, does anybody want to go to Spain for two weeks in, like, April? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, love it. I know. And there's something really nice about that also. It would be nice for more ladies who are like, in this space that maybe don't know us or don't know other people that they can just talk to about zoning if there were better ways for us to communicate and get connected. Because Twitter just doesn't really feel like the right space necessarily. I don't know why. It just, I feel like, at least for me, like, and I know a lot of people are just not using it as much. I don't know, it's. It's been kind of consistent for some. But yeah, I know a lot of people that just don't really communicate that way anymore.

[Ali Quindlen]

I think we're still trying to find the right space for that. I think that's something that all of us in this arena have really noticed. You know, we. CNU used to be the place, I think that everybody got together at least once a year for us. I think at least our, you know, our internal crew, our annual faculty retreats for inkdev were a huge time that we were all getting together and really deep diving a couple times a year into the work that everybody was doing and what are the approaches people are taking. And there's so many incredible practitioners doing phenomenal work in their own towns. I think that's one of the things that is most. Has always been most satisfying to me about doing the national trainings that we do through inc. Dev is, you know, kind of airdropping into these, into these communities and just hearing about the incredible work that's happening locally and at the state level. We're starting to see such incredible changes in state level codes. And we're, you know, the nuance that we're starting to see practitioners have between, are they a Dylan real estate or a home real estate? Can they make these, you know, building code changes within their local municipality? Does this have to be done at the state level? State ordinances and coming through. And not just in California. Right. We're seeing incredible code changes at the state level in Tennessee and in North Carolina, which are not bastions of, you know, progressive planning. And I think that's incredible. I think that we're making so much great work groundwork wise and there are so many hands working towards changing places for the better, which is incredible and really rewarding and I think hope building to see.

[Abby Newsham]

Yeah, I totally agree. So for you guys as. Let's just stick on zoning right now. From your perspective as small scale developers and your places and your contexts, what do you think are like the top two or three zoning code or subdivision code changes that cities should be looking at to actually help small scale developers? You mentioned parking. Is there nuance to that? Are there kind of things that even within that realm that people should be considering? And what are the other like, tactical changes?

[Bernice Gradle]

I say like, I would say like remove minimums, which we all know, right? Do it. And we did it in Buffalo where we get a lot of snow. And if we can do it in Buffalo, we have no alleys and we have a ton of snow and we're still able to remove minimums. So to me that's a big one. I think bold. We did all this in Buffalo. Remove your drive throughs. Like that's a bold statement. We don't allow drive throughs except for one little area that's already kind of suburban on the periphery. And I, I am going to say something I think very bold, which is probably going to get me in trouble, but I don't think we should be building a single single family house in America right now. So I know people want single families. I'm not saying that, that, that, that's wrong to say like that, you know, that's not wanted. But knowing what the construction costs are, they should at least be a sneaky duplex. At the very least there should be some level of flexibility so they can withstand the flexibility needs of a family and also the income flexibility of, you know, as things changes, whether you, sometimes you don't have a lot of money, sometimes you've got kids that are really expensive and you need to maybe rent out the room in your house or rent out a stinky duplex area in your house. You know, so I just think they like, I just, I just think we shouldn't. Maybe this is bold. But, you know, I just would like to see sneaky duplexes as a minimum. That's just me, you know, could be a single family. You can use it as a single, you can use it as a single, but just make it able to make some level of rent in your lifetime at some point. Yeah, that'll be the next, that'll be.

[Abby Newsham]

The next code thing like sneaky duplex minimums. We'll see it as like state, state laws eventually.

[Ali Quindlen]

You heard it here first.

[Bernice Gradle]

Yeah, well, nobody can afford.

[Abby Newsham]

Yeah.

[Ali Quindlen]

I think my top list, right. That we, anytime we're coming into a community we're really promoting is eliminating lot minimums, lot area minimums and lot width minimums. There often aren't great health, safety, welfare justifications for those. Those really came out from published. Right. If you read through all the meeting notes of the times that a lot of these codes were passed in city hall, they often were really stated openly as having a goal of making housing more expensive. That we wanted nice homes on large lot to be the baseline. We wanted to discourage low cost housing. That's the straight verbiage from my town when we passed it. But you can almost always find the same thing in your own archives. And it has worked exactly the way it was supposed to. Right. Big, big lot area minimums and protected single family home use only really makes the housing more expensive. And so as we look at trying to solve housing affordability and to reintroduce a better diversity of housing that occurred pre1970s in the United States, we used to house people in an incredibly diverse way of garage apartments and small walk up units that looked like houses and big houses and boarding houses and townhouses. And we had all of these, you know, really incredible nuanced ways of housing. People that fit lots of different budgets, fit lots of different climates, family arrangement demographics and household types. And we made a lot of those illegal, but with two things. Single family zoning, you know, that that's the only thing that you can put in this area. And then lot width minimums, which are done in lots of different ways. Sometimes it's lot width along the street, sometimes it's lot area, sometimes it's both. And so if I was going to eliminate two things, you know, with the wave of a magic wand, it would be any sort of minimum around how big the lot has to be. And then single family zoning, just letting people put a second unit in. And you know, we really got excited about adus because it was like that first way for us to sort of start sneak in some density. And everybody got really comfortable with that idea. And the reality is if we're okay with having a second house behind the front house, they shouldn't need to be sold. Together, which just means, you know, it's like if everybody in your town actually needs 1 pound of sugar, but your store only sells 10 pound bags of sugar, then nobody is going to be able to afford to buy them. But also the store is not going to sell much. And so dividing the sugar up into different size bags can be a really helpful way to find people getting what they need at the budget that they have.

[Abby Newsham]

Exactly. I love the idea of being able to actually do lot splits for these really. I mean, basically just like cottage houses that are in backyards. The concept of inner block development has always been really fascinating to me. Actually looking at the insides of blocks and having housing within them. And places that have alleys, of course, are like best suited for this. And not everywhere, not everywhere has it, but it doesn't mean that you couldn't have a way to retrofit the inside of a block. Yeah, I think, you know, as you guys know, I work on like a lot of zoning codes and oftentimes, just looking at older codes, these minimum lot size standards and density standards are so pervasive, and it's amazing how much housing they keep from actually getting built and also how much they don't actually produce good urban design outcomes. Like, people, you know, look at density as if it's something that produces an outcome that we can all understand. And it's such an abstract. It's a math equation. Right. And so it's very abstract. It doesn't tell us anything about what the output is. I, I had a home that I owned that was like, I think it was like 25 units per acre and it was a single family home. It was just on a very small lot. And if I would have gone somewhere and said, hey, I have a development project and it's 25 houses per acre, people would have like, run me out of town. And it just tells you nothing about what you're actually getting. So, yeah, I think all cities should really kind of remove that as a framework and look more at building types and actually, you know, outcomes. Garages, driveways. How does it affect the streetscape? What's the frontage of the house look like? And how does it relate to public realm is so much more important to, you know, neighborhood character and being additive than anything else.

[Ali Quindlen]

Well, and, you know, 50 years of having these really bad zoning codes has also totally skewed our perception of what a normal residential density is too. Because if you look at one of my favorite tags, and I think you might have to buy this book used online, but you can Find it. It's called visualizing density and it was written by a landscape architect and an aerial photographer together. And so it's all of these different neighborhoods, communities, different patterns from the air and then what that density looks like. And it's, it's incredible how much it shows you that the density at the streetscape, the density of the massing is so unrelated to density of units per acre. And so it's this, it's this really off metric that is not giving us any useful information about this. A nice place to live. Is there enough green space? Do we have nice trees? Are there places for kids to play? And it we think about it that way. I think that's what people are trying to say when they say they want to live in a low density neighborhood. But in a lot of cases being in a low density neighborhood means you don't have enough tax revenue to support really nice parks. And you can't walk to any businesses because there aren't enough rooftops for them. And so starting to detach what we think of as a normal density per acre is so useful. And if, you know, if we look at my first new construction land development had a couple ADUs tucked in. It was a couple of townhouses. And so we were, you know, depending on which lots you include and if you include the alley and the kind of public space, we're at 20 to 30 units per acre. And it's all single family home. Everything's on a standard, you know, 30 year mortgage. I think that's one of the things about the solution that we have found in our neighborhoods that we're writing zoning codes for is that the lot width minimum is listed as zero feet, which means you can make a lot with no street frontage in the back of a main lot. As long as you have appropriate easements for access and for utilities, which can be done in a million ways, then you can create that ADU in the back on its own lot. And it can be sold not on a condo loan or only as a package that is really two houses sold together. It can be sold on a normal, normal mortgage. A normal banker can understand it. It is on a platted lot. And so I think starting to both detach really thinking about density of dwelling units per acre from Is this a good place to live? Do I like. It is really helpful but it also, it really depends on looking at the projects that you like. One of the ones that we use as an example a lot is a little 1930s walk up apartment building. That is the, you know, it's the density and mass of a house. It's in our downtown district here in Fayetteville. It gets used a lot as an example, visually, because it's been this very popular building. People who live in it really love it. Right. It's one of those little beloved walk ups that people who live in it talk about their year there, you know, later. And if you do the math, because it has no parking, it is no more than three stories anywhere. It's one story at the street. It steps up as it goes back. I think it's 60 to 70 units per acre. And it's on a little like 50 by 150 downtown lot with, with a number of apartments on it. And it's so cute and charming. If we think about Paris, which is an average of 90 to 120 units per acre and one of the most livable, beloved cities in the world that people pay to go to. So I think really embracing. There are different metrics we need to be using to say, are we building a nice place?

[Abby Newsham]

You know, Bernice, this is something that I wanted to ask you about because, you know, building a nice place, is this a nice vibe? I always think about how, like, I mean, even as I'm improving this little house that I bought, it's like, you know, obviously you want to make sure everything is working. Structurally, mechanics, electrical, plumbing, all very, very important. But there's also this component that I think of as like, cute equity. When you buy something that's really ugly and you slowly, you know, make it a lot cuter than it was before. And I think there's a lot of value to that. And every time I'm like, like, you know, I. I acquired like 200 bricks and like, did this giant landscape project in my yard. And my neighbor brought me, like a bunch of fruit and vegetables that they grew because they were, you know, I was out there with the shovel working, and now it's very cute. And I always think about both of you. But you, Bernice, because you are always like, making things really, really cute and improving neighborhoods through your projects. Can you kind of talk about some of the projects that you've worked on and how that's worked for you?

[Bernice Gradle]

Yeah, I mean, I mean, to me, it's always. It always comes down to the budget, right? So, in fact, our friend Grayson, who was going to be on this too, but couldn't because she's working, she said to me, she goes, I'm always surprised that you have so much restraint, because all my projects are like 85 to 90%. You know, they're never 100%. I'm not a graphic. Like Allie, you know, you're a graphic designer. You want almost perfection. Not always, but, you know, for me, it's always comes down to the budget because I'm like, oh, I only have $30,000 to do the entire interior, and, you know, oh, and I have to paint and I have to fix the siding and whatever. So for me, it's like I come down to a very restrained budget, and because of that, I don't. Everything has to be incremental. First of all, everything has to be incremental. Sometimes I'm like, there's beautiful clapboard siding underneath, and I can't take this ugly, you know, weird 60 siding off because it's got asbestos, and I'm just going to leave it, you know, and sometimes we just. So. But. But the bottom line is it's incremental, and you just focus on what you can do. So for me, it's. Can I change the address signs to have a better font with something? And you can spend a little money on address signs because the. They're, you know, it's not a $10,000 thing, but you don't go to Home Depot and you get the. Don't get the cheap ones. You go online, you find really cute ones that are like a couple hundred bucks. So you're spending a little more money there. But it's like the first thing people see, right. Can you restore the windows? Original windows, the original storefront, the original porch. Like, focus where your eyes see, you know, which we've had tons of conversations about, haven't we, over our text threads, you know, over the years.

[Abby Newsham]

Right.

[Bernice Gradle]

For me, also paint, right. So paint is very cheap. I. I be. I paint all the time. Sometimes some. I could have a 1960s kitchen cabinets with metal cabinets, you know, the cool vintage metal. And people are like, oh, you should throw that out. No, I'm going to keep that. But I'm going to lean into the metal. We're going to go 1960s themed, maybe pink, maybe. Maybe teal. I just lean into it because I always remind myself there's just one tenant that has to love this. It's just one person. And in our rental market, in our rental market, we might get 10 people that see apartments. We might get 20, 30 that want an apartment, but you just need one person that wants a really cute pink kitchen, a really cute speckly gold countertop from the 70s, you know, so. You know, so I just lean into whatever.

[Ali Quindlen]

Weird.

[Bernice Gradle]

I don't want to say weird, but whatever makes it unique. I try to lean in. That's the first thing I do. And then everything else gets embellished as lightly and as portably as I can. You know, I always joke around that most of my apartments have in unit laundry and they have typically have granite countertops. But the granite comes from Bargain outlet. It's like $200 a slab and then I have it routed so the routing is more expensive. It's like $400. So I have a six hundred dollar countertop that's like round and cute. But, but granted, if you were gonna go buy it on the market, it'd be like 2,000 thousand, you know, and that, you know, but I don't have to because I found this like workaround and it's not expensive granite, it's like cheap. It's not cheap, but it's thin. But if you know how to work it, make it look cute, you can like it like it does what you need it to do, right? You've got a durable countertop for, you know, that's really cute in a cool, you know, old, you know, house at least. I work in old houses and so, you know, so it's really just getting exceptionally creative, which is really what made me nervous during. As the interest rates go up and, and Ali's heard this a lot, I'm like, I can't be any more creative. I've had to be creative since the day I started, you know, Buffalo. Some of the houses I bought in Buffalo were for $1 $1, $1. So you can't. When you're, when everybody complains about like expensive market pressure, but the reverse of the $1 market pressure, you know, you literally have to make it with your whole heart and your hands and your sweat and your creativity because you have to build cute equity. You know, that's what you have to build. You have to build that cute equity. The other few things I think that are cute that aren't people don't talk about, but you start the block club, right? So spend the time starting a block club, getting your business associations together, right? It may not feel cute in the moment, but that will help build the energy around, around the neighborhood. And I have found that that has been rewarding in so many different levels. You know, it does raise, it can raise your property values, it can, you know, get better tenants, but it also just builds faith and strength and love within the community at hand. So if you have an emergency, you've got people around you that can support you you know, so really, to bring it all together, it's getting really creative, right? Of course. Being bold with color. There's nothing wrong with color. And, you know, and I'll say this, Ali, I'm sure you'll agree. I think understanding the tone of colors and how colors go together is something that developers often miss. So they'll do, like, a brown tone and a light, like, blue, gray tone. And that's why the actual. The design doesn't look good. Sometimes you. It's. If you can't. If you can't on the fly, make your building look like it belongs on a Pinterest board, you need to hire somebody that can help you through the coloring, the design, you know, because we naturally get it because we're in it. It's our home. There are homes, you know, like. But, you know, you can't. You know, and then staying ahead of trends. I was. I remember I was painting white in all apartments. Everybody's doing gray. I was like, no, no, no, no, no. White's coming in. We got to go with white. You know, and they're like, white. Why are we doing white? I'm like. And then, of course, a couple years later, it becomes, like, the thing. And now, guess what? Everyone's shifting to dark colors and maximalism and, you know what? And warm tones. And it's like, okay, let's go. Like, now we're shifting again. Let's go. But being ahead of that, there's still people doing great. Anyone going from gray?

[Abby Newsham]

I mean, I see houses all the time of these, like, gorgeous old houses, and the interior is all gray. And I'm like, what. What are you doing? Please stop. Just stop.

[Bernice Gradle]

Yeah.

[Abby Newsham]

Yeah, that's.

[Bernice Gradle]

Yeah. I also maybe forgot to say. I forgot to say one thing, which is always preserve what you can. Right? That's really the key. So keep anything you can save. If it's durable and cute and worthy, like, hardwood floors and the countertops and stuff, I just save it. I. I mean, very rarely do I throw. I want. Once took a metal kitchen cabinet. Like, it was, like, metal on the top, metal on the bottom, like a white ceramic kind of metal. Sorry, metal of kitchen sink. And I was like, you know what? I'm gonna lean into this. I just put, like, really cute wallpaper all around it and called it my, like, 1960s kitchen, you know? Like, I don't care, you know? And some people love that stuff. They don't. I. I just. People. You don't. I think. I don't know. You guys can tell me if you're wrong. But there's some to stand out in this market whenever there's so many big landlords doing the same thing. And you're a little baby person, but you've got to stand out. You've got to do things that will stand out and grab people's eyes. And it's just so much fun to do it with paint and cute landscaping, like your house, Abby and, you know, and. And Allie. Everything Allie does is cute. She's got pink houses and like all kinds of cute things going on.

[Abby Newsham]

When I visited you a year ago, I was just blown away with like how pink everything was. And I am. All of your properties are like, like pink. And I love it. It's like amazing.

[Ali Quindlen]

I think it was a really interesting you, you know, you visited in such an interesting transition time for our business too. I feel like when we started building houses, we were much more serious, right. And felt like things needed to be a really certain way to be taken seriously. And it was probably, gosh, I just had my nine year anniversary of going out on my own and starting my company two weeks ago. And it was really interesting reflecting that. I think we really hit that point where, you know, our, at some point, our logo, we switched from like a green logo to a pink logo. And it was really this beginning of not feeling like it was a liability to be this almost all female company, but instead that it was a strength. And I think it took us a few years to feel like we had the skills and gravitas and sort of work history to feel that confidence. And, you know, that may not have even been accurate to external, that may have been internal pressure, but it was really fun. And we really leaned into, you know, everything is navy and pink and we've painted multiple houses pink and our office has been in a pink building for a little while. And we, you know, we've just really leaned into kind of all of this fun branding, that there is something really joyful about the color and the durability and the, you know, vintage kind of reused items that Bernice is talking about. We've used in a couple of renovations. Really cute old colored sinks. Right. That there was a great period, 1920s to 1960s, where Kohler was making a couple of really, you know, bright, fun, trendy color sinks and bathtubs and toilets. And I bought a historic house in 2017 that had our first. It was all lilac, which was a really specific, you know, it wasn't the same as the lavender lines and it wasn't the same as the later 1960s purple lines. It was this lilac. The toilet and the sink and the bathtub and the bathtub faucets and the water valve that turned the toilet off on the wall. All of it was the same color ceramic lilac. And it was the only. You know, it was the thing that we protected in the house and saved, and people loved it. And it was that first time that it was a realization that we could just do things that were fun and pretty. Pretty. It's just a bathroom. You're just brushing your teeth here. It's fine if it's lilac and if it makes you smile, great. And so then when we did the pink house renovation, it had a pink bathtub in it already. And so I looked up what years that shade of pink was from and then found a pedestal sink that matched from the same years from the same manufacturer. So we brought back the matching sink that was probably there and probably ripped out by somebody because they hated it. And we put the pink bathroom back. And then our next big vintage house that we renovated after that was a 1920s that had this. This very 1950s version of a pink bathroom. So the floor is pink tile, and all the walls are pink tile, and the bathroom countertop is pink tile. And so we really leaned in and wallpapered the rest of the bathroom with this teal and pink, you know, that it's. It's just fun and pretty. Right? And not renovating that bathroom, which I think 90% of people would have done, saved a lot of money. It was entertaining, though. Our contractors would come in and, like, most of the house was gutted. And that was. The pink bathroom, was the room that was, like, really well protected. And, you know, lots of handwritten notes on the doors about not. Not messing things up. And so we had trades guy after trades guy come in and be like this. This is the room we're protecting. This is the sacred room. And that was. It's such a special part of that house now, though. And so I think, too, there are these really classic virtues, right, of thrift and economy and joy that I think bringing back into the way that we think about this, we would phrase it as, like, don't Home Depot your vintage house.

[Abby Newsham]

Right?

[Ali Quindlen]

We love you. We buy lots of stuff from you.

[Abby Newsham]

I love Home Depot, but.

[Ali Quindlen]

Right. Yeah, I'm there every weekend. And also, you know, don't rip out vintage 1920s bathrooms that have served beautifully for 100 years to replace it with, like a arch topped, raised panel cabinet bathroom, you know, with a overlay in formica don't do that. Just keep the nice old thing or go, go to architectural salvage and buy the cute $20 blue sink and lean in.

[Abby Newsham]

Yeah, totally. I mean, you know, it just makes me think of, of the houses that I've had. I mean, I'm nowhere near you guys, but I'm on my second 100 plus year old house. And the way that I, I think about it is that this is literally an art project. And in, you know, I also, the interior is an art studio basically, but the house itself is an art project. And so you kind of chip away and work on it. You're not spending tons and tons of money on like modern renovations, but you're finding different ways to express yourself through the improvements that you're making. And I think that that is really aligned with historic preservation, which is something that you two both really lean into. We love old buildings. We love 100 plus year old buildings. And I mean old buildings really are not well suited to kind of the modern aesthetic and following trends. They're kind of meant to be quirky, wouldn't you agree?

[Bernice Gradle]

Yeah, I mean they're quirky, but in some ways they're, you know, they, they. Buildings evolve and change as we all. But you know, those buildings are still standing 100 plus years later. And these new buildings aren't as durable. Right. You know, there's all kinds of things. I, I remember when Covid happened, I looked at my 11 unit building because there's a lot of tenants in there. And I looked at it and I go, well, it survived the play like the 1920s plague. Like we're gonna survive this, but like how? Right? And, and you know, you think they were going through the same thing. So they, they grow and change and they can adapt. But there's we, what we've learned over and over again is that these small buildings that typically mix, use or you know, they, they stand the test of time, you know, in so many ways. And it's just that the businesses change, you know, and the structure changes or you know, instead of, I don't know, five and dimes, now you've got eyelashes and you know, and you know, or whatever is going on the hair. And so I just, I think that we can't go wrong with recreating and building and saving those, those old, recreating new similarly, or restoring what we have.

[Abby Newsham]

Yeah, it's very humbling.

[Bernice Gradle]

I also wanted to say one thing. I'm sorry, it is humble. Yeah. One comment actually on the, on the cute, but also like one of my Phrases in life is do what you can with what you have, where you are. And that's a tr, you know, Roosevelt quote. And, you know, when you think about your building, your project or your neighborhood, right? Everything you do, you just do a little bit, do what you can. A lot of people want to shoot for the moon, but they can't. They have to like do steps, baby steps on the way. And, you know, I think about like the tulip. Like, I want like a thousand tulips in my neighborhood and in my front yard, but I can't afford a thousand tulips. I can afford 25 tulips every spring and every fall, you know, or 100 depending on the year and how much money I'd made, you know. But, you know, over time, you know, I look around my. And you know, Allie, you know, this. You've seen, you've heard me say this. But, but I look around and especially in the springtime and I think about all the flowers I planted over an eight or ten year period and it was like 25 at a time or 50 at a time, but then it's all of a sudden you're surrounded by grape hyacinths and tulips and, you know, and the little purple puff balls, you know, and I'm like, this is so great, you know, and so I really encourage people if they're thinking about small development. It's not, you know, everything is incremental, but it's. You do what you can with what you have. Just like, just like Abby, just like your front yard, you know, you collected the bricks for a good deal or for free, I think, you know, and you worked it out and you made it what you could now. And it may evolve a couple years from now. You might say, I hate this, or I want to plant a rose bush and you add the rose bush or the lilac tree or whatever.

[Abby Newsham]

Let's hope I don't hate the bricks because they're like, you know, they're cemented now, so it'll be really hard to take.

[Bernice Gradle]

I think you'll love it.

[Abby Newsham]

Yeah, totally. I totally agree with that. And it's. Yeah, you just kind of chip away at things and I feel it like this whole world kind of lends well to people who like to chip away at projects and get a lot of satisfaction out of like physically creating things. So, yeah, whether you're like an artist or you just like to make things like, incremental development is very appealing for that way.

[Bernice Gradle]

Are urbanists like all theater kids or artists? Yeah, I Think we are like a bunch of just theater kids who loved. You know, we love music and dancing. I don't know, it just. It feels like it sometimes, you know?

[Abby Newsham]

Yeah. I don't know.

[Bernice Gradle]

I just say. I say that as kind of a joke, but kind of. It requires this. Yeah.

[Ali Quindlen]

I don't know, man. I was. I was a state champion debater. I was not. I was not the soft theater kid. And maybe that makes sense now given my current. My current reality of my day to day. But the thing about it is.

[Bernice Gradle]

Well, that's why you're the most successful, Ali.

[Abby Newsham]

Yeah. We just work for you.

[Ali Quindlen]

I think, though, there is, you know, Bernice, as you're talking about the tulips, I think that's the thing that feels so meaningful to me about this work is that we say incremental everything, not because. Which also I've stolen from somebody that I've said it to the other day, and they were like, wait, I came up with that. And I'm like, great, you can have it. I'll quote it for you. But I now forgot who it was. So whoever it was, email me and I'll do better at remembering to give you credit for that. But, you know, incremental everything in relation to. Not because. Not because everything is easy and not because a small step cures everything, but because if you stay at it. Right. You know, Bernice and I are now kind of, I would think, mid career, right. That we. We've been working in the same markets for long enough that, you know, tenants who bought a house for me that was a little affordable renovation have now had their first and second kid in that house. And like, I now see that kid walking to work and we're starting to see the tulips bloom and. And the fact that the incremental small steps are not because we can solve big problems with small steps. It's because we have to do something today, and we have to do the thing that we can do today so that tomorrow we've done something else. And that as you begin to build those incremental changes on one another, you begin to craft this really beautiful place to live. Because I think that's. That's the thing that's really important to me about real estate development is it's not about the buildings and it's not about the sidewalks and it's not about the street trees. And we have to do all of those things. Things. But we're making the place that people live. We're making the place that you walk your kid to School. And we're making the place that you come home after a tough day and we're making this backdrop for people's lives. And so it also means if we're waiting until 10 years from now to do something, we've had 10 years of a worse place that people are living their lives. And so I feel this huge, like both hopefulness but also like real moral imperative. Like we have to do something today and we have to do something tomorrow and we have to do something the day after that because this is the life that we're leading right now. We don't get to come back to this year and next year we'll be glad that we planted this year's tulips and the trees.

[Bernice Gradle]

I love that so much. I want, it makes me want to like, cry. It's so true.

[Abby Newsham]

I mean, we could definitely cry here. It's probably good we didn't include the wine. We'd all be in tears.

[Bernice Gradle]

Yeah. I mean, and you know, this gets to one of your questions, you know, Abby, that you're probably going to ask, but this is why women make really good small scale developers. Like community based, you know, community conscious, community loving development is what we need.

[Ali Quindlen]

It's.

[Bernice Gradle]

We've had so much extraction and so much boring, like garbage stuff built and we just need people that can love heart, you know, and lean in and just mother it, you know, in a way. And, and so it's just like I always, I mean, I think that I'll take all the small developers we can, but my, I have seen that just, we just make good and, and so many women that you meet, you're. They're scared, they're afraid, they're. They don't want to take the risk. They don't, you know, oh, my husband should do that. You know, there's a lot of that and it's like, no, you would be so good. You're. You'd be so good, you know, or they don't have the time because they have kids and I. Everything else and you just, you just wish, you know, it's just, it's just they're, they're strong and committed and, and they don't mind running the block club and cleaning up the trash and renting the apartment and painting it pink and like, you know, all the things. And we, everywhere we go, everywhere we travel. I feel like, I just, I don't know, I almost like wish we could have like 10,000, you know, lady developer goal or something, you know, So I.

[Abby Newsham]

Think it's possible and I Actually, like, I would love to have a hoodie that says incremental everything on it. I thought a lot. Like, I have a bunch of lady taglines that have to do with incremental development that I would love to put on like, like shirts. But Bernice, I completely agree with you. I, I think a lot of women, I mean, there's a lot of reasons why women don't get into small skill development. I mean, I even understand it from my perspective. It's kind of scary to be like, wow, like, I'm going to ask for how much money to do what with this building? I mean, I, I think there's a little bit of a mental block of like, who's going to give me money to do this. But it is also surprising that there actually are people that, that kind of believe in your vision and, and want to be a part of something that you're creating. And so that's really beautiful. And I would love for more people to be able to kind of come together and talk about that. How do you gain the confidence to actually start a project to be a nurturer of your own community? I'm much more impressed with people who are nurturers of places rather than like conquerors. I think we need to stop, like, looking at this conqueror approach to real estate as like, cool. Like, we should all just stop being impressed with that because it's not cool. Yeah. Yet it persists. So that's something that, that I'd really like to see is just more women. I mean, Ali, you work with like a ton of women within your world and your company. Are you seeing more women getting into incremental development or having more or more of an interest?

[Ali Quindlen]

We've seen an incredible, you know, increase in both the number of women that we're training through inkdev and also the number of developers of color that we're training. And we had our first city this year ask us to do a fully Spanish native speaking version of the training. And we're, you know, we're really excited about. There is a really incredible process and nonprofit through Tulsa that is working on setting up curriculum for helping Spanish speaking small businesses get all of their admin together. Right. That they have their permit process down and they've got their bookkeeping lined up and they're doing all those things to get their business to a place that they can do small development. And so I think we're seeing this huge increase in the diversity of the viewpoints and markets that we're seeing. Small developers. Right. We're seeing More rural small development training. And you know, we're seeing all of this, what I would consider specialization of small development, which I think is incredible because it's happening in so many different markets and demographics that that will only strengthen the practice that we're really branching out. And I do, I think it's, it's useful sometimes to give people a little bit of credit too. Right. Like women in the US couldn't get a credit card in their own name until 1973. 74.

[Bernice Gradle]

Right.

[Ali Quindlen]

And so about how incredible it is historically that I have so much real estate debt now. You know, I really. That's a historical feminism move to now I've taken out so much real estate debt on different projects, which I've never.

[Abby Newsham]

You're making history.

[Ali Quindlen]

That's right. But I think it is, it's also, it's changing the market in terms of. Right. My first commercial banker when I started my company and when I bought my first big commercial property, you know, I started flipping houses really young. I was in college. The first, first house flip that I did with my sister. And also as I got that first big commercial loan that went to a big loan committee, I had a female banker who was also right. And we had a fully female banking team and my first general contractor was female too on that project. And so we, we have this ability to really lean into competency being the name of the game and not having to like make an argument for yourself. And I think we're seeing, I do think that we've really moved into a space that, that is easier. I think it was harder when I got started, likely both being younger and also, you know, that was a, that was a number of decades ago. So I think, I think we're, it feels like we're making progress, us in that way at least that it is. It's getting easier and less surprising to have female small developers. And I think it's getting more common too. I went to a small developer meeting recently that, you know, my male counterpart I was meeting showed up with his two year old and I loved that. Right. Had just done school pickup and had his little bud in the backseat with us as we did, you know, a drive around a neighborhood. And I think that integration of people's lives more into their business is only a strength. And I think we're getting better at that.

[Bernice Gradle]

I'm a big fan of guys bringing their kids to stuff because, you know, then it, then it, then it normalizes us being able to do that. Right. Because we always, I don't have Kids, but I have friends with kids and it's always, it feels like a burden, but really it's the reality. So yeah, that's actually really great. That's such great wisdom. Allie. You're full of. Just, I mean I love even, even. I know we text every day, but I love listening to Ellie because I'm like, yeah, I need to do more. I know.

[Abby Newsham]

It makes me feel very inspire.

[Bernice Gradle]

I know it's like, you know, so it's just, it's hard work, but it's good work.

[Abby Newsham]

Yeah, I think that's beautiful. Having kids also just bring engaging kids in this idea of like small scale development and things that parents might be doing in this realm is just beautiful to get kids involved with. You know, I have my group, Small Developers of kc. We hold monthly meetups and a lot of people, I mean sometimes we have people who bring their kids, we hold it at this coffee shop called PH Coffee and they have like a space for kids to play. So we'll have like young kids playing back there during meetings. And so yeah, I always encourage that because it does. I mean not just women, but it helps anybody actually attend the meetings. People get so busy doing other things. It's hard to show up to something even once a month on a Monday. It's like, like people are tired, they don't know what to do with their kids. It's like just, just bring them.

[Bernice Gradle]

Isn't it funny like adulting in that like now I think about what you just said is funny because I never, I thought I was rare in this but even any meeting I can control if it's after, after hours, it's like we need to have food, you know, we need to have, you know. And it didn't used to be like that. It was like, no, you need to suffer from five to eight, you know, with, with no snacks, no b, no childcare, no nothing. It's funny that you say that because it, it may be a shift in our thinking as the gener of generations. I just didn't think about it.

[Abby Newsham]

Well, that's the beauty of like holding things at a coffee shop and coffee shops becoming community spaces where you can have meetings. I know like kind of the traditional way. And a lot of like urban planning projects will have things in like churches or in libraries and that's all good, but just inviting people to a coffee shop and paying the local business is another approach that benefits local business. And again, a local business is going to have probably a better vibe as well, you know, Much more, much more. Pretty much More inviting than a lot of like municipal buildings, for example.

[Ali Quindlen]

And I think that is that next stage. And I find that too, Bernice. You know, we used to feel really revolutionary, I don't know, seven years ago, telling cities that when we were hosting public feedback sessions, if we were doing them at night, that we wanted pizza and we wanted a couple of teenagers in the back of the room with some coloring books so that we. It's not like we have a formal daycare back there, but like, if you want to bring your kid that it feels welcome and it feels like an integrated part of the community. And I think that is something that for a long time the US did a little bit less well than a lot of other countries where kids are just more integrated into day to day life and it's less uncommon to take them out to restaurants. And it is more common, you know, to see them in meetings and with a parent in a meeting. And that they are just a part of life, which also then lets them see how life works, that they don't kind of live in this little kid bubble and then enter the real world at some point when we let them and be shocked by the way it works. They're just an integrated part of society, which also lets young parents stay more integrated in society. I think that is a thing that as we really move forward, thinking about ways that we can keep people in the workforce, that we can provide more flexibility, that we can provide more access to the wholeness of life. Even when you have an 18 month old with you, which I classify as that, like, hardest age, that they, they're, they're big enough to run away, but they're not yet big enough to reason with of why they have to sit in color for a little while. And so the more that we can make, make all of our spaces really conducive to little kids, the more that we get to keep everybody involved.

[Abby Newsham]

Yeah, yeah, I love that. It's, I mean, it's a serious conversation, I think, for all communities to have. Like, how do you actually integrate kids into other aspects of society? Because it's like, yes, you can bring your kids to parks, but, but also if you want to attend a meeting, you should be able to bring them and they, you know, distract them for an hour so that you can participate in civil society. That it shouldn't be so hard for parents yet. I mean, I don't have kids, but I hear that it's very difficult for a lot of people to get to these things. So we're coming up on the Hour. I had no doubt that we could fill an hour, which is the three of us. Imagine if it were more. I think we would need more time. But I do want to have time for the down zone, which is the part of this show where we can kind of share anything that we've been up to. Anything could be show, could be a book, could be music, activities, anything like that. Which one of you wants to go first? I. I don't know. I kind of want to put you on the spot, Bernice, because you have this smile on your face.

[Bernice Gradle]

I'll actually say a book. So a lot of you all know Mike Keane, who's in South Bend. He's a small scale developer. And if you're following strong Towns, you've read probably about Mike Kean's story, who he's a business partner of mine and we've, you know, work together on a bunch of stuff. That's not even what I want to say. So Mike actually has a secret weapon. That secret weapon is his wife, Gabrielle. And. Right. Yes. And so right now I'm. I'm halfway through a book that she wrote called Oppie's Berlin Diaries. And my. It blows my mind. I will just say so. She wrote this book. It's about her. Her grandfather, who she found out later in life was part of, was a Nazi. And which is like, really hard. So it's her, like, digesting that and figuring out she. To her, he. She was. He was amazing person who she. Who. Who she loved so much. And then she's like, how could he be like this? And. And it's this unbelievable story about like. And I'm not all the way through it, but I'm reading it. And I didn't know this, but Gabrielle. And Gabrielle comes to see and you. She's come to Strongtown, so you might have met her if you, you know, if you meet Mike. She. Her first memory as a kid was on the platform in Berlin as they were bombing in the. In the 44. She's just old enough. And so she writes about that. And it's so unreal to me to think that I know someone that I respect and admire so much that's, you know, has personally had this experience that we all read about. Right. And. And. And also I can't wait to un. Digest. To digest this. Her story about her grandfather, who she calls Poppy API. Oppie's Berlin Diaries is the book. Yeah. So, I mean, I'm not here. It's published. Oh, yeah. You can get it. I got it on. On online and then got it shipped to my house. Yeah. And I. I just can't. It just blows my mind because you think, like, you read these stories and you watch these movies about the war and all this stuff, and then you're like, wait a second. I've had dinner, like, eight times with somebody who was directly, like, fleeing Berlin during this time. And. And, you know, and I love Mike, and. But I also have just loved Gabrielle. And so getting to know her story is just.

[Abby Newsham]

Yeah. She's one of the kindest people that I've ever met. And she actually got me into journaling a few years ago. Like, she was the one who, like, encouraged me to do that. And I am going to link this to the shell notes so that people can buy her book, because I'm definitely going to buy it. I had no idea she published this. That's amazing.

[Bernice Gradle]

She's. By the way, she's done several books. Several books. So one of them was about South Bend, about women of color pulling together their money. And then I think. I'm pretty sure I could get this wrong, but I am pretty sure it's working with a person that was white to buy the houses because they couldn't afford. They could not buy the houses themselves. I could get that wrong, but it's. She's written another book about. Yeah. So Gabrielle is. I mean, I don't know. Sometimes you meet people in your life and you're like, wow. And she's one of them. So highly recommend her. She's a good writer, and she's just a great human and comes to congress for New Urbanism and Strong Towns conferences often.

[Abby Newsham]

So, yeah, she's a lovely person. Allie, what about you? What is. What's been on your mind lately?

[Ali Quindlen]

You know, we were prepped before the podcast. We were gonna have to answer a question about hobbies and things that we were excited about outside of work, and that felt really challenging to be prepared for, because right now, the reality of my life is most. Mostly work or I'm like, at kids soccer. Those are my. I have. I have a whole bunch of kids and a whole bunch of work, and so those feel like the things that are mostly going on right now. I'm teaching a kindergartner to read right now. But the thing that I'm really excited about that's kind of coming up. Right. The thing I'm looking forward to is we are. We've launched a field trip process for inkdev. And, you know, really looking back towards those faculty retreats that we used to take where we would just go somewhere fun and all get to sit around. Right. And have dinner and go walk through project tours and hear the like how the sausage is being made by other really cool people. And so we're, we've got one, our first one that's coming up in Atlanta in October like almost exactly a month from now. And so we've been working on that pretty heavily and we've got, you know, we're doing walking tours of a number of our faculty members projects and then other small developers in the Atlanta market. And we've got some really incredible programming that we're putting together. And that is the thing that I think I have been most excited about working on and, and some of that may be selfish that I'm just really excited to see all my friends in Atlanta next month and get to see their cool work. But I think the thing that I always find so rewarding about our profession and the kind of crew of doers that I feel lucky to be a part of is everybody's always doing such incredible work. I know I said that at the beginning, but it's always really cool hearing what everybody else is up to and then seeing all of their tools. And so I'm really, I'm really excited about that.

[Abby Newsham]

I love that. It's very exciting.

[Bernice Gradle]

You gotta say the dates.

[Ali Quindlen]

Yeah.

[Abby Newsham]

Oh yeah. What are the dates? We'll also link that to the show notes if you want to go to the inkdev national field trip and the workshop that happens before that.

[Ali Quindlen]

Yeah. So it's, it's two separate events that are that first weekend in October. So we've got our full day workshop which is, you know, Intro to development on October 3rd and it's at Monday Night Brewing. So it then launches leads into a really fun happy hour that we've got a theater group coming in that they've got a series of monologues that the city council supported having written about people looking for housing. So it's like housing theater. That's going to be the content for this happy hour at Monday Night Brewing. And the Monday Night Brewing location was done by a small developer. So we're feeling really good about that. And so then that is just Thursday. And that's a pretty open. It's open to non members. We've got two or 300 seats that we can fill. We probably have about half of them still left. So there's capacity to sign up for that if you're in the Atlanta region. And then Friday October 4th and Saturday October 5th, we've got full days of Walking tours of faculty projects. So Eric Kromberg, Elizabeth Ward Williams from Kromberg Urbanist Architects will be leading a kind of more central and east Atlanta set of walking tours on Friday. And then Joel Dixon is going to lead us through some more southwest Atlanta walking tours of some of his projects that are under construction on Saturday. And then we've got sort of a choose your own adventure on Sunday, which I think is October 6th. That is, we'll have one that's at Trilith. I think we'll have some townhouses that Lou Oliver did that are just the cutest. And then we're sending a crew kind of north west Atlanta to a project. And so there's a series of different variations that you can sign up for on Sunday. So we've got multiple days of tours and dinners and just hanging out. So we're excited about that. We'll link it in the show notes. But I, I can't wait.

[Abby Newsham]

Yeah, that's gonna be so much fun, Ally. Seriously, you know, I think I guess what I'll share. So I have been practicing painting for a little while. Like guess it's been like about a year and I've been like working mostly on like canvas and just learning kind of as I go. And so I decided that I am going to like invest in actually learning how to paint more professionally and with technique. So this weekend I've, I'm actually starting one on one sessions with a local artist that like you can go to the studio and he's not necessarily teaching like, like any particular style, but it's more about technique. I'm like bringing one of my existing paintings. I have these like really large canvases that I work on and none of them are really finished. So I'm like bringing that in. We'll talk about technique. And I'm also, I've signed up for tutoring classes one on one for learning Spanish because my, I want to learn it fluently. So that's something else that those are like my two little projects is to like get serious about Spanish and get serious about painting so that I can become a painter.

[Bernice Gradle]

I mean, to be fair, you're an excellent. Your art is excellent.

[Abby Newsham]

Thanks.

[Bernice Gradle]

You know, so to give you a little boost, I mean, you know, you just got to put them up. I told, actually I said Ally, I told her that she should have her like, like a year of art like in the gallery opening. Just let us know, give us enough time so we can all make it to Casey and see it. But like, you know, just hang it like, to the ceilings worth of work. I just feel like it would be so.

[Abby Newsham]

But maybe I'll buy a small commercial building and it can be like a studio slash gallery space slash. I'll have some tenants that actually pay for it. Maybe I'll live in it and we'll just go from there. Yeah, so that's always an option.

[Bernice Gradle]

SBA. Do an SBA loan. SBA loan. 51% over. Yeah.

[Abby Newsham]

Yeah, that sounds good to me.

[Bernice Gradle]

All right, well, I, I. You ladies are amazing. And, you know, I just continuously get inspired by both of you, so I thank you for. I thank you for your time.

[Abby Newsham]

Yeah. Thank you very much.

[Bernice Gradle]

And friendship.

[Abby Newsham]

Yeah. Thank you guys so much for joining me. And I think maybe we should do, like, this, this power hour, like, once a quarter. We need more ladies on the show, so.

[Bernice Gradle]

Anytime. And. Yeah, let's do it.

[Abby Newsham]

All right, well, thanks, guys, and thanks for listening to another episode of Of Upzone, everybody. You guys have a lovely weekend. Thank you. Bye.

[Bernice Gradle]

Bye. Let me show you what I'm about to do I'm about to get out.

[Ali Quindlen]

Hit the town tonight oh, we're about.

[Bernice Gradle]

To get down tonight Hit the town tonight.