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- [00:00]
Abby
Foreign. This is Abby and you are listening to Upzoned. Hey everyone, thanks for listening to another episode of Upzone show where we take a big story from the news each week and the eps on it. We talk about it in depth. We dig deeper into what it really means for the future of town cities and people who live in them. Today I have a very special episode with a brand new guest that I have never had on before and I'm just meeting today for the first time. So very excited about this. Rachel Leonardo is a video producer at Strongtown. She's with us from Spain, which I want to hear more about. But yeah, Rachel, very excited to have you on. Maybe you can talk a little bit more about yourself before we get into the article.
- [01:09]
Rachel Leonardo
Sure, definitely. Well, thank you. First of all, I'm also very excited to be here and actually sit down and have a conversation with you. I know your, your name and what you do have been in my orbit for so long, but we've never really had a chance to meet. So this is very exciting. Yeah, I guess, you know, like you said, I make videos for strong towns predominantly, but I do have a background in architecture. I studied that in school and then following, you know, a calling to come out here to Spain and having friends in Germany, which led me to this area. I always say that German was harder to learn than Spanish. So that's why I ended up in Spain. I wasn't able to practice out here and so video creation was at first a hobby, something that I did on my own. And I was able to marry these two topics that I really love as much as I do. And now I make stuff online to visually show people the importance of why it's important to reconsider the development patterns that we have in the United States as well as other areas of the world to make it more people friendly for everybody to live in.
- [02:20]
Abby
Yeah. And what more wonderful place than staying to appreciate walkable cities and beautiful architecture? I mean, that sounds really lovely.
- [02:31]
Rachel Leonardo
Yeah, no, it definitely it's been a dream. But I'm always cautious to say that it's not about making U.S. or Canadian cities like European cities. It's rather seeing that they're using certain frameworks that we can take and apply and make our own in across North America. So. Yeah, but it has been a dream and I'm always open to visitors, so anytime you're out here, let me know and I'm happy to show you around.
- [03:03]
Abby
Well, I'm always looking for an opportunity to come back to Spain. I've only been to the Catalonia region. So yeah, I'd love to, love to come see other parts.
- [03:13]
Rachel Leonardo
Yeah, come on over.
- [03:15]
Abby
Yeah, that'd be awesome. I'd love that. Okay. So well, very nice to meet you. I'm excited to talk to you about this article today as well because we're going to be talking about American cities, particularly in the Sun Belt. So we are covering a major feature article that was published by Box entitled Sprawl Made Perfect American Sunbelt. The American Sunbelt Affordable Now It's Breaking it by Mariana Bolognova, which I apologize if I didn't pronounce it correctly. The piece explores how decades of sprawling suburban growth, which was once touted as the key to Sun Belt affordability, has really hit a wall. So this is describing cities like Phoenix, Dallas, Atlanta, which have long prided themselves on having abundant, abundant housing and very low regulation. And they're now seeing stagnation and housing construction and they're also seeing rapidly rising costs and increasingly rigid zoning. In other words, the same scroll based model that once helped these places grow presumably are now making them very fragile and expensive. So the article pulls in data from a lot of leading economists and I also want to give a shout out to the many brains of strong towns that are featured in this article, including Chuck Maron, but also Ezra Klein, Ali Quinlan, Nolan Gray. I mean very cool to see these these names in this article and they highlight how kind of a rigid single use zoning mindset has locked entire metro regions into very car dependent low density patterns that are very resistant to be the change. So today we are going to be asking what happens next to these areas? Can they course correct and how do we make these places potentially more resilient and financially strong and livable in the long term? So for sure. Rachel, I'm curious what some of your initial thoughts on this article were.
- [05:35]
Rachel Leonardo
Yeah, no, I mean I think I like the way that they positioned the the benefits that Sproul had brought to US development post World War II. I think it takes a topic that we typically look at as very black and white, which is suburban growth as this experiment that was detrimental to the United States. And it shows the complexities of the situation that we were once faced with and why we chose to make the decision to build in a certain development pattern after that period of time. But how that rigidity and maintaining that mindset has now not allowed us to evolve and grow in what is the natural cycle for most people just through life and the way that our cities once did prior to World War II. Yeah, those were my initial thoughts at least is they did a good job of capturing the complexities of suburban development and the complexities and how we need to address it. But I'd be curious, just you as an urban planner, if you don't mind me asking you the question, like practicing in this field, what your like idea of. Yeah, I don't know what this article means for you as somebody who's in the field and how you. Have you seen any kind of sway between the difference of maybe five years ago talking about suburban development and now it just feels much more prevalent, at least from my perspective.
- [07:12]
Abby
Yeah, it certainly is. And working in places like Texas, which is in the Sunville region, I, I found that they have a lot of city managers and people in leadership positions that are actually talking very strongly about this issue of financial resilience and speaking to a lot of these strong towns issues. Despite having this, you know, very squirrely suburban growth pattern that is prevalent in many metropolitan areas or if not all metropolitan areas in Texas. The conversation is there in urban planning circles and people who are dealing with public administration. So I've been encouraged to see that it's on the table. It's important. The development pattern has been recognized as a financial liability and something to be addressed. But I think when it comes to how cities and towns actually go about changing things and making themselves more resilient, it's not a one size fits all solution. And they're often coming up against priorities with state funding, federal funding, you know, expanding highways, growing out and not up. And so I, I think for individual municipalities it can be a real challenge to balance this kind of regional growth mindset which is now doling out funding for highways and other resources and advocating for more incremental growth that is more small scale. And the one criticism I think I have, of course this article in particular, is that they highlight, they highlight the state level reform, which I think is very important. I know you know Nolan Gray, who is a, I would say, I would say friend of strong towns, but I don't know, they, they like to debate with each other, but he's a friend of mine and he's done a lot of really good work in terms of state level reform with, with his organization alongside many other people. But there is a case to make about incremental change, kind of fought them up, things that could happen. And that kind of. My one hang up with this article is that despite bringing in people like Chuck Marone and Ali Quinlan, who's the executive director of the Incremental Development Alliance, I think that we could have pushed further in this article on that discussion and how you actually do that because it is very challenging. And I think what a lot of, what a lot of cities and towns and people in leadership positions in particular struggle with is you can't necessarily take an incremental development approach and treat it as like a systematic machine that, that you can apply. Right. It's not, it's not a, you know.
- [10:31]
Rachel Leonardo
It'S not one size fits all like you were saying before.
- [10:34]
Abby
Yeah. I mean it takes a bunch of scrappy, weird people who are willing to take a chance on cool buildings. I mean, last week I interviewed Bernice and it's like, yeah, the world would be amazing with like a million Bernices, but she's a very unique person. And every person who is an incremental developer, like, they're, they're going, they're taking a path that is not normal in this society. We just don't have a culture building that is not about top down approaches.
- [11:06]
Rachel Leonardo
Yeah. And I mean. Well, I think it's interesting you talk about the people needing to be kind of weird. It's scrappy. And I. There's a level of like scrappiness that we need to embrace. And I think that, that, yeah, one thing this article doesn't necessarily feature as much plays to the complexity of how do we approach the suburban development today and how do we start to find an answer? And there really is no one answer. It's just about understanding certain frameworks of design and having the right people plugged in, in leadership roles in different places to be able to implement those things in a way and in a language that resonates with the people of. And how, like, how do you make that accessible when you're trying to send a public message on a national level? Right. Like, how do you make that statement adaptable to the granular needs of like Buffalo, New York or. I was just in Marion, Ohio. Like they are, you know, northern US, but one is Midwest culture and one is, you know, upstate New. Well, yeah, more Bernice is definitely going to come at me for not knowing exactly where Buffalo is. And maybe I'm showing my terrible geography skills skills right now. But just to the point being like we need to. There's just so much nuance and differentiation that each place needs to be able to hear that. I do think it's hard when an article like this comes out and it's talking about a problem that does affect us all and whose systems were put in place to essentially impact California, Dallas, Phoenix, all In a very similar way. But there really is no way to say like, okay, there, this is like a one stop shop to create like a, a one stop shop system that we can apply to each of these different places to make each of them great and financially resilient again. Right. It's like a safety net to feel that there's this broader system or broader form of development at play that we can lean back onto as a nation versus actually embracing the different cultures and climates and essentially vernaculars that would adapt to or respond well to certain environments that would make that place feel stronger and more resilient socially. But also then economically speaking, like yes, the framework is compact development does lead to less financial risk, but it does allow for more people to invest in businesses and have entrepreneurship opportunities, et cetera, et cetera.
- [14:01]
Abby
It's complicated.
- [14:02]
Rachel Leonardo
It's complex.
- [14:04]
Abby
Yeah. Nonetheless, it is very complex. I mean, yeah, the development, housing, all these issues are very complex. Another thing that I would love to see highlighted more in these discussions is, you know, why the, the home building subdivision building industry is so focused on greenfield development. Like there are real financial reasons for that and it's not, I, I would say when it comes to how businesses formulate and run it, I mean it's often a path of least resistance. Right. I mean water runs downhill and it's something is easier to do than one off urban infill projects and more profitable. That's where businesses are going to scale up. And so some cities are getting really smart about that distinction between greenfield and infield development and addressing some of those, those heightened risks and barriers that infill development just inevitably has. You know, lots have infrastructure that probably needs to be updated. They could have environmental issues. In Kansas City we have situations where houses were just demoed on site and are basically in the basement, in the former basement, you know, underneath the ground on some sites. And you don't know that until you start digging. And so that's happened all around the country. And I think that that's a real discussion to be had about where the risk lies and where our financial tools can be applied in a way that creates a profitable business. Because for, for small scale and fill incremental development. I know a lot of people who do it, but they're not necessarily doing it because it's their full time job and they were going to make a profit in the near future. Some of them are doing it because they, you know, had a little bit of money and they were able to do a cool project. And it's not always completely Profitable. And I think that's a real conversation to be had about how do you, how do you create real incentives beyond just zoning? I mean, I think zoning is one piece of the puzzle, but there's more to this story than zoning. And how do you, how do you create an overall system of funding, financing, construction that, that aligns with the outcomes that planners and public officials are wanting to, to support rather than just growing out? One thing I'll also add is that there's a lot of suburbs that aren't, cannot grow out anymore. You know, I mean, I think of the Dallas metro even. And yeah, there are cities on, on the out, you know, North Dallas and the outskirts of Dallas that are, are having this first phase of, or even second phase of suburban development and experience expansion. But there are plenty of cities that are now surrounded by other municipalities. And so they really will have to address this issue of maintaining what they have and updating infrastructure. I have a couple of cities that I'm working with that are in this dynamic right now. And thankfully, this is the conversation at a leadership level. They understand it and they know that, hey, we can't, we can't add a bunch of new subdivisions for the next 50 years and keep growing to increase the tax base. Right.
- [17:43]
Rachel Leonardo
Because where's the land? Right?
- [17:45]
Abby
There is no. Yeah, there's very limited internal lands.
- [17:48]
Rachel Leonardo
Right. There's that aspect of it. And then I think, yeah, you run into these pressure points of the zoning issues or schools of thought, you know. You know, I think culturally as well, J.C. nichols's planning for permanence had a major impact on the way that we think about any kind of development in the US Even in areas that are designed to be more compact. It is designed to a finished state and let it be. And so there is no incentive to take on challenges where we're potentially reusing parts of old buildings or. Well, one, because the economic incentive isn't really there for people who are potentially doing this only part time. And I think a lot of that also can do with the fact that policies are not put in place to make it easier for people to take on those kinds of challenges, even if they have the ambition to. And I'm. Well, hold on, I'm losing my, my train of thought there a little bit.
- [18:55]
Abby
No problem. I mean, there's a lot, there's a lot of good stuff there on what you said. And I, it makes me think of. There's a, there's a term that they use in this article. They describe it as a pattern of the great dormancy where suburban interiors have, you know, that, that are, have been built out for a long time have very little or almost no housing that's been built in decades. And that's because there's been very strict zoning laws and homeowner resistance to change. And I think this is a really rich concept. We're strong towns and strong towns oriented conversations because it's essentially the physical manifestation of stasis where we have underutilized and flexible and exclusionary parts of our cities and towns that are just really not, not open to adapting and changing, but at the same time our aging. And so I think there's been a lot of kind of systematic movement at the state level to, for, to make zoning reforms. And here's a big debate about whether that's the right approach. But I don't want to get into that today. But there is a question of will people living in these areas ever be open to change if they're in forms of the full picture or an issue of just, you know, we're good, we don't want to change, you know, big picture doesn't matter, leave us alone. That, that's certainly the perspective too. So it's very challenging.
- [20:37]
Rachel Leonardo
Yeah, I mean it's translation, right? That's like what I see my job as being and also why we'll probably get to this closer to the end of the podcast, but I love learning languages. I'm obsessed with trying to understand how people communicate, doing what I can at least to figure out how to, to communicate the best way other people communicate. And I may not, I'm probably pretty mediocre at best in other languages and, and who knows, maybe online, but with, with this, with this topic. But I think using pairing the visuals, like being in urban planning and architecture and pairing visuals with the words that we're saying helps to reinforce these ideas. And I think and, and we often fear the idea of incremental development more than, than the actual image of what it is. And I, and I find like as frustrating as it is when I speak to people who are more NIMBY leaning and who, who you know, lived in suburban areas that are really beautiful, quaint, pleasant places and they see those areas and they say I love this neighborhood, I don't want to see a change. But I love these ideas that Strong Towns talks about. And so therefore like it totally should happen, just not in my backyard. It's like, okay, that is a really frustrating conversation to con to come to terms with because there's buy in. But when it's not Close by or it doesn't fit.
- [22:12]
Abby
And in my neighborhood.
- [22:15]
Rachel Leonardo
And, and I find that like how do you, how do you bring that conversation to those people? And, and looking for local examples of where it actually happens. Like where I grew up, I grew up in Kensington, Maryland and close to that area is an, is a section called Garrett Park. And in Garrett park they, it was a town developed on the B and O railroad that goes into the, to the D.C. area. And right next to the B and L railroad in this Victorian neighborhood is an old post office that they've maintained the post office part, but they've made the, the upper level a restaurant. So it's a local restaurant, it's owned by locals. And so that has been my go to when speaking to people when I'm visiting back home of like we need to allow every single neighborhood to change by. Right. And, and they're like well I don't want the tattoo shop in my backyard. And I'm like, well okay, the market has to kind of decide that. But you do accept the fact that local businesses should be present in your neighborhoods if you enjoy going to this small local restaurant and eating there. And I know that's not housing and housing is a bit different, but it's a very similar concept of like where, where against this disruption to the way that we live because we think of it visually as skyscrapers because that's how it's always presented itself when in reality, if we can present the vision of no, it's not skyscrapers, it's a home that is the size of a two car garage that's just behind the house that was initially built there. It's the large home that you currently live in, but you no longer need the space for because you're an empty nester. And so now you've divided it up into two places and instead of you having a second entrance to a mudroom and the front door, that mudroom entrance is now the entrance to a second home. And like that is a hard thing to get people's heads to wrap around, especially if you've talked about this frequently with other people and you hit that breaking point of like, I don't know how else to talk to you about how this is the way that we're going to be making housing more accessible and affordable in the future. So I definitely just went on a rant there, so please, please bug in.
- [24:39]
Abby
Totally. I mean it's a challenging conversation. Right. And particularly in areas that have been long established. And you know, I, I think Devil's advocate They, they probably look at development and other parts of the metropolitan area and they, there's a lot of bad development out there, like just in terms of aesthetics and approach and everything. So it's getting better, but it's in certain places, you know, developers design their projects and some do it really well. And we love the people who understand urban design and architecture, but there's also developers that don't do it well. And I think the knee jerk reaction for communities is to either say no, you can't do anything different or we have to highly regulate the design and make sure that, you know, it goes through 20 reviews. And sometimes, you know, that's the system that ends up getting set up. And same with the use discussion. I think you mentioned the tattoo parlor, you know, and I think like you could allow commercial uses and have some concessions on what kinds of commercial uses they are. I mean, I, I don't know. It's not allowing a tattoo shop is the right approach.
- [26:03]
Rachel Leonardo
Right.
- [26:03]
Abby
I feel like most people in suburbs have tattoos these days. But, but yeah, I mean sometimes you look at, I was at a youth table not too long ago and I was like, who hurt you? Because they didn't allow, they didn't allow Psychic Arts or dinner here. And I was like, that's both the same.
- [26:24]
Rachel Leonardo
Who hurt you is right.
- [26:25]
Abby
What. So some of these tables, man, they get very specific about what they don't want. And I'm like, there's a story here and I want to know what it is.
- [26:35]
Rachel Leonardo
Well, yeah, you're so right to bring that up. And I think I don't want to like gloss over that because I think a part of what this article was trying to propose is like, what does suburbia become? Right. And I'm mixing two concepts now. But to, to hit on your, the idea that there's a story there, it's like, yeah, I, I really feel that there are, I mean, I know that there are people in my life who have been burned by living in cities in like the 70s and 80s and so therefore just didn't want that again. And fear, fear that us having to develop incrementally again would potentially create environments that at the time were maybe more dangerous or insecure because of, I don't necessarily know. I mean, there's so many complexities to that.
- [27:19]
Abby
Yeah, yeah. Addressing root causes of decline and you know, nuisance impact. I think, I think we associate it with built form where built form is very important to tax productivity and, and financial sustainability. But it's not built form necessarily that is creating Adverse impact. I mean, we live in Spain, which has a beautiful built form and you know that that isn't what's creating the impact. There's a lot of root causes, there's economic root causes, there's both macro and micro, and there's also mental health issues, there's culture. There's a lot to unpack with all of these things. Yeah, exactly. So it really isn't a one size fits all conversation, but we have this very broad association with built form housing types and even, you know, particular types of uses. Tattoos as the example or tattoo parlors. So I think that's an interesting discussion to unpack and it actually leads me to the question of you asked, you know, what do suburbs become? There is a generational ship on the horizon as well. Right. Millennials are no longer like the young people. They're not writing articles about us anymore, like 30s and 40s. We're the grown up now. And um, there's new young people on.
- [29:03]
Rachel Leonardo
The scene and some weird words, some weird language, like those guys.
- [29:10]
Abby
Yeah, I know. I feel like now I'm an old person, but whatever. Um, but it is these. Soon it will be millennials who are the 50 year old, even 60 year olds. And what do suburbs look like when that happens? What happens when the millennials are living, who are will be living in suburbs and are wanting to age in place? Will they be more open minded to having maybe an accessory dwelling suite or they live on in a walkout basement and even their, their kids could even live in the house with them and take up the rest of the home. So I, I do see this as it'll probably be a very incremental change, but I do wonder if housing will become adapted as generational shifts occur.
- [30:03]
Rachel Leonardo
I think you're super on the nose with that. I, I see how people my parents age are not able to really age in place because of the cost of living going up so much outside of the D.C. area. And I think that knowing that that has happened to a generation of people whose parents now need to find new homes, whether that's because they really wanted to or out of a need of. Out of need, out of a necessity, is a message, an indirect message to younger generations. And I think millennials and even Gen Z have had a lot more issues with being able to find stability in home ownership. And once we are able to fully achieve that as a generation or generations, I don't know if we would be as willing to let go of it. And so therefore I think we would be. This is speculative. But I do think that we will be much more open to allowing our spaces to adapt and change because it will let us stay in places where we know we have community and we know that we've had the chance to take that shot on opening the coffee shop down the street. And even though it's failed, we've been able to support our friends florist business and the memories and the stuff that has been made there. Especially considering a lot of. I don't want to touch on this too much, just the turbulence in the world in the last 10 years. Finding moments and places where we can have that stability is what I think is, is will be our generation's biggest accomplishment is finding a place to find security. And then once we have it like a small amount of change between a duplex, like living in a duplex versus living in the single family home, I don't think will faze us as much as, you know, a lot of the stuff that is going on in the world right now. Whether I think no, regardless of your political affiliation. There's just a lot going on and there's a lot of news to keep up with. So yeah, I did want to touch on as well. There's one part of the article again, this is me with my languages that they talked about how suburbia comes from the word suburbium, which is I guess a Latin word that means that the. It's the area outside or under the city. And I really liked the word under the city because traditionally a lot of these old cities, prior to cars being associated with suburban areas were cities were built on hills and the suburbs where, where people would then grow food for people in the city because that was the need at the time was the close access to. To foods and, and this the city offered other services that the land around surrounding was not able to provide. And in Spain I actually get to see that where outside of Pamplona, right outside of the city walls, there are still some farmlands that are maintained. But a lot of that land has now also turned into extensions of the city neighborhoods that have been allowed to change over time. Now we deal with our own set of issues with housing and change and all of that. But to bring it back into the more American context, I think the suburbs will have to deal with this and they will have to change. But that doesn't mean that every aspect of the suburbs should change or will change. It's not about bulldozing down neighborhoods and putting up townhomes or brownstones or skyrises or five of our ones it's about every little house being able to change when it's ready to change so that their lives can, people's lives can adapt to the necessity at that given moment in whatever given year it is.
- [34:00]
Abby
Yeah. Having closer alignment with the, the needs of the owners of the houses. Certainly. And you know, you mentioned, you know, the lineals securing homes and people who are currently the seniors that are not able to age in place due to shifting, you know, housing prices and the unavailability of housing in many areas. I think on the flip side of that, there's also, there's also a lot of places where you have long term older homeowners that are living in a house that is way too thick for them. They don't necessarily need all the space that they've lived in that house for a very long time. Maybe they've raised a family there and they probably have a low interest rate. Right. Because of COVID era. And now houses are more expensive. Right now we're in kind of a weird market. And so what I'm finding with a lot of cities right now is that that dynamic is actually causing people to age in place, but not in the way that they want to age in place. There's plenty of people that are interested in, you know, downsizing or finding lower maintenance options, even whether they're renting or if it's a condo that they buy, like a villa or you know, townhomes, something like that. But they don't feel like they can because if they sell their house, they're going to probably buy a more expensive little villa that's lower maintenance, but it's actually going to be more expensive in some cases, particularly if they're in an area that had, you know, a really stable or increasing market. And so there's this dynamic going on where there are people that are kind of, they're aging in place, but they would like to age in place in a different kind of way, but they're. The options just really aren't available. And so you have this supply of large and medium sized houses that theoretically could hold a lot more people, but they just aren't because there's not an incentive to the current owner to, you know, sell it or transfer it to somebody, somebody else. So that's a dynamic that I've seen a lot that is another challenge in housing. So I think it just speaks to how complex these, these issues are. And you know, when you think of adaptability, well, some of those owners may be interested in how do I allow this house that I'M kind of stuck in to adapt. Can I, can I do something that will work for me? I mean, maybe they'll have their kids move into it and they'll live on site and be a multi generational home. That would.
- [37:03]
Rachel Leonardo
Or it even could be like an issue of trust.
- [37:05]
Abby
Right.
- [37:06]
Rachel Leonardo
Like.
- [37:06]
Abby
Yeah, I don't.
- [37:07]
Rachel Leonardo
If you're an older person and there is a younger family who potentially wants to live in your house, if you don't and would like allow you to live in a certain space in that house, if they, if you could adapt it. Yeah, I mean, that's more the social side, right.
- [37:21]
Abby
Yeah. It could carry out groceries and help you with things. Yeah. There can be a lot of benefits.
- [37:28]
Rachel Leonardo
You've got to have that elation, that relationship established as well with that person. And I'm sure there are cases where that exists, but it, there's just not a way to divide the house up to allow these people to live dignified lives in their own separate spaces still.
- [37:47]
Abby
Yeah. Have privacy, so.
- [37:49]
Rachel Leonardo
Exactly.
- [37:51]
Abby
Yeah, that's a very good point.
- [37:54]
Rachel Leonardo
I don't know. It is, it's complex. It's a very complex issue. I do, I think, you know, you touched on this. There are a lot of, there's a lot of pressure at this point given the rigidity and given this, this fact that the idea of permanence is actually crumbling because we can't promise that like no one, nothing is permanent. Like we are constantly changing as humans and so therefore our needs are constantly changing. And so therefore our environments also need to be able to change and we need to be able to change our environments. So for the people who do want to live in the suburbs, they should have the right to live in a suburb. But most people need other options and we just, yeah, we can't provide that. And the fact that there's that pressure at this point, although it's uncomfortable, I think it's awesome at least to hear from my perspective that the conversations you're having, it seems that people are becoming more open to this, but maybe there's a hitch. I don't know. You've got to, you got to let me know.
- [38:51]
Abby
Organizations like Strong Towns and people who are writing these kinds of articles, it really does make an impact. I'll say from, from the, from the perspective of somebody working in cities and engaging with communities and people directly like people do, I would say increasingly understand these concepts and understand the challenges. Whether or not they want to address them or want to change is another conversation. But I've been impressed by the level of sophistication that a lot of cities have both on the leadership side, but also local community members that are not technical experts on these issues. There's a lot of people that they understand these issues. I think that is important Organizations like Strong Towns and writers and people who are making content around topics that impact city building. It's just very important to continue.
- [40:02]
Rachel Leonardo
Yeah, no, I mean to your point, like with the local, like getting more of that local touch in this article. I think if they had gone and found. Because there are so many videos of people I've seen who use like in California, they take it, I forget the name of the code but they're, they're able to start small businesses in their garage, in their, in their driveways and you know, a link of that of like look, this is actually what people are doing would have been really nice. But it does exist.
- [40:33]
Abby
Really cool, right?
- [40:34]
Rachel Leonardo
It does exist. And you can look it up online. Like it's not inaccessible to you now, which is really cool. So there is this ecosystem around this article like that. To your point, it's growing and it's cool to be a part of as well. To hopefully allow for that visual of hey, it's just a duplex, it's not a skyscraper. To start to manifest in people and sit with people so that they don't feel as confronted with it when the idea actually comes to their town.
- [41:00]
Abby
Yeah. And Korea. Placemaking and adaptability. I mean there's a lot of interesting ideas that are not just for urban areas. I, I'm constantly, I'm constantly thinking about this idea of adapting the suburban neighborhood pool into like a cute market slash like food truck area. Like I think that there's like those are so oftentimes the like center of a neighborhood and a lot of suburban communities and there's so much you could do with it. It's a really, I think it could be a really cool, I would say year round community center. It doesn't just have to be a pool. There's a lot of different things you could do with their structures and with the site.
- [41:49]
Rachel Leonardo
Oh, I'm curious about that design. If you, if you're working on something like that, I would love to see. I, I'm not working like trying to.
- [41:56]
Abby
Imagine it's all in my head. But so, but if somebody listening wants to take that and seal it and do something cool to neighborhood pool, please just send me a picture and I want to.
- [42:06]
Rachel Leonardo
I know, I want one too. Wait, send me a DM too. I want to see that.
- [42:10]
Abby
That sounds yeah, totally. You'll write an article about it or something, put it out into the ether. But yeah, I think that there's, like, there are destinations within suburban neighborhoods that could become more than just, you know what they are there playgrounds, there's neighborhood pool. So I think that there's other ways to creatively adapt neighborhoods about totally changing the context completely. Okay, well, with that, is there anything else that you want to touch on before we get to the downbone?
- [42:46]
Rachel Leonardo
I mean, I guess I'll just say North America has been known so much for its innovation. We are a country that eats Oreos that are flavored like cake. We have technology that allows us to get deliveries within 24 hours, and that didn't exist 15 years ago. And I think we underestimate our ability to adapt to any kind of change. And when we see how much innovation we are able to absorb in the short span of time that we have, I just hope that people recognize that, that we can do the same with our built environment, and it wouldn't change as quickly as the way that our technology has changed our lives. And if anything, it will make everybody around us happier, more confident in taking small risks like creating businesses and give everybody the ability to live a life that they want to live and not one that they're necessarily forced into. Yeah. Those are my last thoughts there.
- [43:53]
Abby
That's great. Those are the other last thoughts. Okay, well, let's go into the down zone. So this is part of the show where we have been or we share anything that we send up to these days. Reading, watching, listening to, or just activities that we've been up to. So, Rachel, I'll put you on the spot. What is your down zone?
- [44:18]
Rachel Leonardo
Man, there's been a lot going on over the last couple of weeks, I have to say. Books I've been reading. I'll give a shout out to Michel Durand Wood. He just put out his new book, I believe it's now available in the US Called you'll pay for this, which if you're not a city finance person, this is a great intro into it. I think he does an insane job of actually making it really approachable.
- [44:43]
Abby
It's.
- [44:43]
Rachel Leonardo
I was laughing through the book. It's like a weekend read, 100 pages. Highly recommend that if you're into this world and he's just a great person and other stuff. I mean, so San Fermin is happening here, which I feel like I could have a whole podcast talking about this, but I'll keep it short. But San Fermin, for those who don't know is the Running of the Bulls in Pamplona, which is where I'm located right now. So every day after work, everyone dresses up in, in white clothes with a little red handkerchief. I'm going to show Abby on the screen here. But everybody wears these around their neck. And then you, we just go out and you're with people. There's music in the streets and you know, depends on how you enjoy parties. But some people are. Most people are much more relaxed than others. But there's a mix of everybody doing everything and it's really beautiful to see the city come together. So. Yeah. How about yourself?
- [45:36]
Abby
That's very cool. Well, let's see. Books. I actually randomly, I went to Half Price Books in Kansas City and picked out the Stephen King novel recently. So I've been reading the Outbiters by Danny King, which is a murder mystery book I've also been working on. So Meyer, I have new gutters on my house but the way that they were built have been putting a little bit of water in my basement. So I got large water collection containers and they've now been rerouted to those. And so it rained last night for the first time. I got to test it out. And it is amazing how much water. I mean, I don't even think it rained very much, but it's full now so I need to go hook a hose up to it and de up the container. Although it does have another mechanism where when it gets full it'll pour out and like it'll. The water will be led to a different part of my garden. So I'm, I'm creating a whole water system. Oh, I'm honestly, I've been, I mean I just, I built a patio single hand Lizzly, by the way. But I, I built a patio a couple weeks ago and I've been landscaping and I just love every summer I'm just constantly chipping away at the landscape and building things and the trying to make it better.
- [47:07]
Rachel Leonardo
Summer garden era Mosquitoes.
- [47:09]
Abby
Yeah, I, there's, I learned about mosquito dunks. And so there's a whole approach to getting rid of mosquitoes where you take a bucket water these little things called mosquito dunks, which are like little pallets. And then you put a bunch of twigs and compost and you put fruit so like sliced apples into it. And so the fermentation creates carbon dioxide which attracts the mosquitoes. And then they go in there and they, you know, try to lay eggs and it will, you know, kill them. So it's a way of getting Rid of mosquitoes without killing everything. So a lot of people spray their yard and it kills all the bugs. So this is a way to get around that. So I've been sending a lot of.
- [48:01]
Rachel Leonardo
Time that's actually working on my yard. Really good tip. I'm, I've been dreaming of when I can get into my garden era because right now I'm in an apartment and.
- [48:13]
Abby
Like fully in it.
- [48:14]
Rachel Leonardo
It's just not. Oh, I'm so jealous of you. That sounds, yeah, that sounds awesome. And the fact that you, I love like things that adults say that as a child you're like, that's not that interesting. But the fact that you rerouted the water from your gutter to your basement and into your garden, that is so cool. I'm obsessed with that.
- [48:34]
Abby
16 year old me would have been like, okay, yeah, right, Right.
- [48:39]
Rachel Leonardo
Yeah. When I talk to friends and I'm like, yeah, so I talk about sidewalks, sports for a living and they're like, oh, okay. Like, are you.
- [48:46]
Abby
Yeah.
- [48:47]
Rachel Leonardo
And I'm like, I promise it's way cooler, you know? Yes. We were just at the national gathering and I was joking around with people just saying that it's so crazy because most of the time I'm interacting with people online about this stuff to actually have a conversation and be like, yeah, bollards are really important because they help us, you know, keep streets safe and reduce the probability of crashes for cyclists and da, da, da. And then for somebody to come in and immediately with some other fact, like on the nose instead of me, who normally I'll post something and the reaction I get is delayed because it's in a comment and it's not necessarily something I'm reading 24 7. It was like, oh man, you know, meeting other people, if you're this far in, you're in a good crowd, I'm sure. I mean, you're also probably hanging around because Abby's pretty cool. So. But in general, I think that this is a, it's a really good group of people in this field trying to do some pretty awesome things.
- [49:46]
Abby
There's a lot of cool stuff to do in this field. And yeah, I had a similar conversation actually yesterday with somebody, but I was enthusiastically talking about zoning and I was like, I can't believe I'm the person who's enthusiastically, like excited to work on the zoning issue, but here I am. It's not what I, not what I imagined here myself when I was 8 years old, but I, you know, these are, these are complex issues and it's fun to solve problems. And I think it's cool that there's a whole community of other people that are interested in that.
- [50:22]
Rachel Leonardo
Well, and it, it is, it is cool. Right? Like, gotta, we gotta pat ourselves on the back here at the end. Like, it totally. It affects how we live. And I think all of us just want to, to have a better life. And I, I love what you said earlier about the fact that the, the urban form isn't necessarily what has caused some issues in the past in, in cities like New York or D.C. area. Right. It's. It's these other factors that go into it, like policy can be a part of that. Social issues, economic issues, cultural issues, international things. Like, there's just so many other forms that things at play. But when you get down to the root of like seeing a city, seeing a town that's built in the incremental form, and you watch kids be able to run around without the fear of getting hit by a car or, you know, like families relaxing on a bench and chatting with one another while their kids run around and they have a bit of relief to, you know, from the kids for, for a couple of minutes like those. That's the heart of what we're trying to do, is just find ways to bring community together. Because the built form is, I think, what most of us believe is the best way to do that. And we've got a long, a long way ahead of us. But I think at the very least, there's been a lot more conversation in a positive direction in the last five years around this stuff, more publicly speaking. I know that's been around for a.
- [51:52]
Abby
While, but I fully agree.
- [51:53]
Rachel Leonardo
I think it's. Yeah, it's starting to get into the, into different. Seep into different aspects of more mainstream quote unquote publication. So, yeah, I really, this was awesome. I really enjoyed talking about VOX and the fact that they're even talking about the stuff that we're talking about, you know?
- [52:11]
Abby
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's great. Well, Rachel, let's leave it there. But you are welcome to join me on Anytime. Anytime. We can make the, the timing work. I know you're. What is it about seven o' clock where you are? So. Yeah, yeah. When we can make the timing work. Let's, let's do this again sometime. This is fun.
- [52:32]
Rachel Leonardo
I'd love to. Yeah. Thank you for letting me jibber jabber with you. I really appreciate it and I really had a great time. This was so fun.
- [52:40]
Abby
This was a lot of fun and probably not as fun as the bowl festival. That you'll be participating in. But, yes, it was a lot of fun. And I hope you enjoy your. Your many days of parties over the next few days.
- [52:52]
Rachel Leonardo
I know I'm gonna. I'll also be resting. I'm not gonna be crazy about it, but yes, thank you. Thank you. Yeah. And good luck with the garden as well. I'll have to get updates next time I'm on.
- [53:01]
Abby
Yeah, totally. All right, thanks, Rachel. And thank everyone for listening to another episode of Up Sound.
- [53:42]
Chuck Maron
Hey, everybody, this is Chuck. About a year ago, escaping the housing trap came out and you all made it a national bestseller. I'm very, very thankful. I've been out on the road ever since, chatting with places, talking with people about how they make their cities stronger. And a lot of people have asked me, chuck, this is really great, but it's so overwhelming. Can you break it down even further? Strong Towns has released a toolkit. It's the first in a series of three toolkits, but this one deals with regulatory reform. What are the changes that cities can make today to get housing going? We call it the housing ready City. So if you go to strongtowns.org housingready you can download the toolkit. You can take a quiz if your city is housing ready. If you meet the six criteria in the toolkit. If you're able to do these six things, we, we're going to put you on a map. We're going to celebrate you. We're going to send people to your city. We're going to send cap. You know, we're going to tell people, hey, this is the housing ready city. Like, go, go move to this place. Go invest in this place. Go be a developer in this place. This place is ready for housing development. Housing. Strongdowns.org housingready is the website. Go download the kit, by the way. It's free. Thank you, members for helping us get this thing out.