Upzoned Podcast Summary

Episode: The $600K Snow Budget That Became a $6 Million Problem

Date: April 8, 2026
Host: Norm Van Eeden Petersman (Strong Towns)
Guests:

• Daniel Herriges (Parking Reform Network; former Strong Towns editor)
• Grayson Johnson (Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation; Strong Towns alumni)

Episode Overview

This episode explores the escalating costs and underlying challenges of snow removal in North American cities, sparked by a recent Boston Globe article about towns wildly overspending on snow-clearing budgets. The hosts and guests use examples from Boston, Ottawa, Minneapolis, and elsewhere to dig into what causes these financial shortfalls—not only severe weather events, but deeper issues in urban design, municipal reserves, expectations, and institutional capacity.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Real Root of Snow Removal Budget Crises

• Boston Globe Article Context (03:31):
  • Recent snow removal costs in cities like Boston have ballooned, sometimes 10x their budget, forcing use of reserve funds and emergency allocations.
  • The panel agrees: these problems are symptoms of greater systemic financial vulnerability, not just “bad winters.”
  • Daniel: “The underlying sickness is just... do you have the slack in the system financially to deal with contingencies?” (04:17)

2. Snow Management Approaches: Cross-City Comparisons

• Ottawa and Montreal “Snow Operations” (06:02):

  • Grayson describes Ottawa’s vast, well-prepared snow operation, including snow dumps that last into August.
  • These cities have reliable institutional capacity, budget reserves, and unique staff/equipment.
  • Grayson: “When we're looking at these extreme events, it's really a surge pricing issue... and that's a really hard thing for a city to address.” (07:13)
  • Smaller or snow-infrequent cities can’t rationalize such investments.

• “Muddling Through” in Less Prepared Places:

  • Norm shares a British Columbia storm story: not enough equipment; public demands instant, total response; a city worker even plowed the mayor’s driveway by mistake, causing political headaches.
  • “There was absolutely no way that they could take the foot off the pedal... our whole city is seized.” (10:01)

3. Budgets, Reserves, and Transactions of Decline

• Living Paycheck-to-Paycheck, Municipal Edition (11:52):

  • Daniel references Chuck Marohn’s concept of “transactions of decline” (13:10):
    • When cities lack reserves, they make short-term, inefficient, sometimes foolish financial decisions out of necessity.
    • “You almost... end up spending your resources in kind of inefficient or even, like, superficially foolish ways because you're in just that immediate emergency mode.” (13:20)

• Comparative Budgets: Ottawa, Montreal, Minneapolis

  • Ottawa spends over CA$100M/year; Montreal $200M (14:16).
  • Investment drives both public expectations and system resilience.
  • “Expectations have grown because the equipment's better, the ability to remove snow is better.” (14:29)

• The Critical Role of Reserves

  • Ottawa’s “rainy day fund” for snow removal allows for years of low or high snowfall.
  • Boston and others were caught out by lowering their snow budgets after low-snow years, then slammed by big storms (16:33).

4. Local Productivity, Land Use, and Resilience

• Strong Towns Philosophy: The Built Environment & Fiscal Health

  • Denser, more productive cities are better equipped financially to cover extremes (18:34).
  • “If you have the productive base to cover the cost... that certainly emerges.” (16:45)
  • Vertical density = more people sharing the burden = more robust revenues, without increasing infrastructure/snow clearance obligations (29:06).

• Community Response & Expectation Setting

  • Neighborly snow clearing (pickups with plows) helps, but doesn’t replace institutional response for critical routes (18:34).
  • Grayson: “Expectations are a huge... a huge question... What are our expectations versus what we're willing to pay for?” (19:43)

5. Institutional Competence and Capacity

• Not Just About Money or Density
  • Daniel highlights the “institutional muscle memory” in cities like Ottawa vs. Minneapolis or NY:
    • “There are huge... unpredictable kind of disparities in just institutional capacity from place to place that don't simply chalk up to... financial resources or land use.” (20:57)
  • Mass transit and waste management analogies: cost and competence vary wildly.

6. The Math and Interconnectedness of Maintenance

• Unexpected Connections:

  • Ottawa’s snow dumps are also a stormwater management tactic (24:41).
  • Comparative city budgeting should account for indirect savings in other systems (e.g. lower stormwater costs due to better snow management).

• Avoiding the “Emergency Trap”

  • “Once you're in that spot where there is an emergency staring you in the face... that's where you get the transactions of decline.” (27:19)
  • Without slack, thoughtful and cost-effective responses become impossible.

7. Limits of State Capacity and Structural Inequities

• Supply Chain and Equipment Constraints

  • Grayson points out rising equipment costs due to global events (“parts from Ukraine”): not all problems are solvable with more money (32:28).

• Who Gets Served? The Political Reality (35:35):

  • When resources are tight, the politically connected or noisy get service first (plowing, response times), risking unfair outcomes and community conflict.
  • Calls for more transparent conversations about what communities can—and can’t—deliver.

• Strong Towns Takeaway

  • Making municipal budgets understandable for citizens is key to honest, equitable decisions.
  • “We need that financial resilience so we have the breathing room to have the conversation about... the actual smartest and best way to go about these things.” (28:10)

8. Urban Revenue Reality: Compactness Pays

• Downtowns Are Revenue Leaders:

  • Despite perceptions, central urban areas often produce more fiscal value than sprawling suburbs, supporting the city’s service capacity. (38:52)

• Equity in Service Provision:

  • More built-up, productive neighborhoods can expect richer services. Trying to provide identical services everywhere leads to insolvency, not equity.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Daniel: "You almost end up spending your resources in kind of inefficient or even, like, superficially foolish ways because you're in just that immediate emergency mode." (13:20)
• Grayson: "Expectations have grown because the equipment's better, the ability to remove snow is better... you feel the competency of your local government." (14:29)
• Norm: “A lot of cities are in a very similar state, if not masking the fact that they're deeply insolvent.” (11:37)
• Daniel: "Canadian cities are not vastly more productive... Why such disparity in terms of competence we believe we have to deal with something like snow clearance?" (20:57)
• Grayson: “Our stormwater costs may be lower because we have this higher snow removal cost.” (25:23)
• Daniel: "Once you're in that spot where there is an emergency staring you in the face... that's where you get the transactions of decline." (27:19)
• Norm: “Trying to help people understand the economics of our development pattern is at the core of the Strong Towns message.” (30:54)

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:31 | Context and systemic roots of budget crises | | 06:02 | Ottawa/Montreal's snow removal systems, "surge pricing," and resilience | | 11:52 | “Transactions of decline”—what happens when cities lack fiscal slack | | 14:16 | Comparative budgets; expectations and local government competency | | 16:33 | The importance of reserves and cases of budget underfunding | | 18:34 | Local productivity, resilience, and citizen involvement | | 20:57 | Institutional competence vs. financial resources | | 24:41 | Snow removal as stormwater management; interconnected city systems | | 27:19 | The “emergency trap” and need for slack | | 29:06 | Street/lot width, density, and the economics of municipal obligations | | 32:28 | Supply chain, personnel, and equipment—hard limits to capacity | | 35:35 | Who gets served in scarcity? Political realities and ethical traps | | 38:52 | Downtowns as fiscal assets, service provision, and reframing expectations |

Conclusion: Takeaways for Listeners

This episode reveals that snow removal cost overruns are a symptom of deeper fragility in urban budgeting, development patterns, and political expectations. Denser, more productive cities and well-run institutions are better equipped to adapt to unpredictability, whether that’s snow, floods, or supply chain shocks. But without financial slack, clear priorities, and transparent debate, cities are left vulnerable—forced into expensive, shortsighted reactions that erode their long-term resilience.

Further Reading & Recommendations

Mentioned in the Downzone (41:10–44:45)

• Book: You'll Pay for This by Mitch Marohn (on municipal finance)
• Resource: Housing Europe’s report on “cost rental housing” (offering a European perspective on affordable housing finance)
• Substack: “The Ink” by Anand Giridharadas, especially the “Epstein Class” series (sociology of elite networks)
• Podcast: Criminal Broads (true crime, recommended by Norm)

This summary was prepared to capture the central insights, notable discussions, and critical quotes from the episode, helping listeners understand why cities like Boston are facing $6 million snow-clearing bills—and what it reveals about the future of resilient urban living.