Upzoned Podcast Episode Summary: "What Does the Future Look Like for Tiny Towns?"
Introduction
In the March 5, 2025 episode of Upzoned titled "What Does the Future Look Like for Tiny Towns?", hosts Abby Newsham and Chuck Marone delve deep into the pressing challenges faced by small towns, using Victoria Pei—a charming seaside village in Prince Edward Island—as a focal point. The conversation navigates through themes of population growth, infrastructure sustainability, and the pitfalls of conventional suburban development patterns.
Setting the Stage: Victoria Pei's Struggle
The episode begins with Abby introducing an article from CBS News by Sarah Frazier, highlighting Victoria Pei's precarious situation. With only 139 full-time residents, Victoria Pei has struggled financially despite being a popular summer destination. The town has recently adopted its first five-year development plan, emphasizing the necessity of population growth to ensure sustainability. This plan focuses on diversifying housing, encouraging development, and adding essential amenities like daycare and senior housing to transform Victoria Pei into a full-service community.
Chuck Marone on the Absurdity of Conventional Development
Chuck Marone passionately discusses why such a small town is an ideal case study for understanding broader developmental challenges. He argues that the extreme conditions faced by Victoria Pei exacerbate the inherent flaws in the suburban development model.
Notable Quote:
Chuck Marone reflects on his experience with small towns, saying, “When you get to the kind of edge conditions of the development pattern, what happens is that you can see the absurdity more clearly” (13:06).
He elaborates on how Victoria Pei's attempt to emulate suburban expansion—complete with extensive infrastructure for a minimal population—reveals the unsustainability of such growth. For instance, the town's annual budget is approximately $204,000, yet they require a single wastewater lift station replacement costing $435,000 (14:18). This disproportionate financial strain underscores the inefficiency of scaling suburban infrastructure to fit a tiny population.
The Flawed Suburban Model in Small Towns
Abby and Chuck critique the application of suburban zoning codes in small towns. Chuck explains that without specialized development codes tailored to the unique needs of small communities, towns like Victoria Pei end up adopting suburban expansion models that are financially and culturally mismatched.
Notable Quote:
Chuck expresses his frustration with the lack of appropriate planning: “There’s nobody giving them another plan. There’s nobody with a different plan” (31:51).
They highlight how public investments are made with the expectation of corresponding private growth, a gamble that often fails spectacularly in small towns due to their limited population base and financial resources.
Historical Perspective and Modern Implications
Drawing parallels to small towns from a century ago, Chuck emphasizes that traditional incremental development was sustainable because it matched the communities' limited resources and population. However, modern attempts to expand infrastructure without corresponding growth create untenable situations.
Notable Quote:
Chuck nostalgically reminisces, “Once you add these things from an infrastructure standpoint, the ante for viability goes way, way up to the point where you can't do it in a city with 150 people” (17:11).
Abby adds that even within traditional, compact development patterns, maintaining modern infrastructure remains a challenge for such small populations. This leads to a critical question: What is the viability threshold for urban development patterns in tiny towns?
Alternative Approaches: Stability Over Growth
Both hosts advocate for a shift from aggressive growth-oriented policies to stability-focused strategies. Instead of expanding outward with costly infrastructure, they suggest enhancing existing neighborhoods through infill housing and modest expansions that align with the town's character and resources.
Notable Quote:
Chuck proposes a phased growth approach: “What you can do is take single-family homes and... add some cottages and some corner commercial places… make it like a... the next best version of itself” (29:06).
Abby echoes this sentiment, emphasizing the need for planning approaches that do not rely solely on increasing population: “There needs to be a planning approach for that instead of growth being the answer to everyone's problems” (42:54).
Cultural and Psychological Barriers
A significant barrier to adopting alternative development strategies is the ingrained cultural mindset that equates growth with success. Chuck laments the tendency of small towns to emulate suburban models, driven by a perception that external benchmarks define their worth.
Notable Quote:
Chuck poignantly remarks, “We put on a pedestal this heroic notion that we can skip all the messiness and just go to perfection” (53:34).
Abby adds that this mentality not only leads to financial imprudence but also erodes the unique cultural and historical assets that small towns possess: “It really culturally makes me sad” (50:19).
Case Studies and Real-World Examples
Abby and Chuck reference other small towns, like Chisholm, Minnesota, and their experiences with community action labs. These examples illustrate the widespread application of untenable suburban development models and the resultant financial strains.
Notable Quote:
Chuck shares a critical observation from Chisholm: “We could say the same thing about Kansas City and we can say the same thing about Brainerd... but the other approach is clear” (35:19).
He underscores the importance of adapting infrastructure incrementally and responsively to the actual needs and capacities of small towns, rather than forcing expansive, unsustainable growth.
Concluding Thoughts: Embracing Incrementalism and Community-Centric Planning
The episode concludes with a mutual agreement on the necessity of prioritizing stability and thoughtful, incremental development over reckless population growth. Abby and Chuck emphasize that successful small towns should focus on enhancing their existing strengths and maintaining financial prudence to ensure long-term sustainability.
Notable Quote:
Chuck encapsulates the essence of their discussion: “If you are adding a subdivision, that would add another 150 people… you can actually do that with cottages and infill housing. [...] let’s do that first, because that’s easy” (44:36).
Abby reinforces the importance of aligning development with the town's inherent charm and resources, advocating for cohesive growth that respects the community’s identity.
Final Remarks
Chuck and Abby wrap up the episode by acknowledging the difficulty of changing entrenched development paradigms but remain optimistic about the potential for small towns to adopt more sustainable and culturally attuned practices. They encourage listeners to rethink conventional growth strategies and consider alternative approaches that prioritize community well-being and financial health.
Key Takeaways
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Unsustainable Growth Models: Small towns adopting suburban expansion patterns face financial and infrastructural challenges that are often disproportionate to their population sizes.
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Need for Tailored Development Codes: Development codes should be customized to reflect the unique needs and capacities of small communities rather than adopting one-size-fits-all suburban models.
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Cultural Shift Required: There is a need to move away from equating growth with success and instead focus on stability and incremental improvement.
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Preservation of Cultural Assets: Emphasizing the enhancement of existing community strengths and historical assets can lead to more sustainable and fulfilling growth.
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Community-Centric Planning: Thoughtful, community-focused planning that aligns with the town’s character and resources is essential for long-term viability.
Closing Quote
Chuck leaves listeners with a thought-provoking perspective: “Your city has to be something that is improvable, like will change. And your city has to be something that is adaptable” (54:39).
Timestamps:
- 00:01 - Introduction and Contest Announcement
- 01:08 - Chuck Marone Discusses Personal Experiences
- 14:18 - Highlighting Victoria Pei's Budget Concerns
- 17:11 - Insufficiency of Current Development Patterns
- 29:06 - Proposing Incremental Growth Strategies
- 31:51 - Critiquing Suburban Zoning Codes
- 35:19 - Adopting Stability Over Growth
- 42:54 - Emphasizing Stability in Development
- 44:36 - Advocating for Infill Housing
- 50:19 - Cultural Impact of Suburban Models
- 53:34 - The Myth of Perfect Development
- 54:39 - Importance of Adaptability in Cities
Note: The timestamps correspond to the given transcript and highlight critical points discussed during the episode.