B (3:45)

Yeah. Well, I think first, if it's okay, I want to set the stage a little bit because, you know, I didn't grow up in South Louisiana. And so I think until I lived here, which now it's been a long time, more than 25 years. But until I lived here, I don't think I realized how deeply many residents and people come to live and experience Mardi Gras. It's part of the culture year round in South Louisiana. It's. It is certainly there is a peak time, a Mardi Gras season, as many folks know. But I mean, I remember when I lived in other places, I would, all of a sudden I would hear someone say, like, oh, it's Mardi Gras today. Today, right. And that would be my only awareness. Like, maybe someone would be wearing beads or some. Something like that. And here it's an entire season that, you know, in communities like Lafayette or New Orleans or Baton Rouge and even some of the smaller, smaller towns in South Louisiana. And it's even kind of going outside of, you know, Mobile and Pensacola both have very big Mardi Gras that they would be very proud to share with you. So it's spreading a little bit beyond Even the state of Louisiana. But it is a. It is a season. It follows the epiphany in January, and then, you know, it. It is all until, you know, six weeks before Easter. And so to say that it is a big deal in the community is really an understatement. And it. For that first part of the year, it is front and center for many folks who live here. And so, you know, maybe. Maybe some of the listeners who listen regularly, you know, may or may not have that awareness. Maybe they've been to the New Orleans Mardi Gras, or. Of course, I feel the need to champion the one in Lafayette, which is wonderful. And, you know, so putting that backdrop of kind of the, I guess, depth of experience for those who live here is. It is an important framework and backdrop, I think, to the story is, you know, because I can hear others hearing, like, changing a parade route and kind of being like, okay, you know, it's just Mardi Gras.

A (6:03)

And.

B (6:03)

And so, you know, it is. It is kind of what this community lives and breathes on in that first part of the year. The route is about 4 miles, and the one in Lafayette, at least the one that most of the parades follow, has been in place for about 30 years. And so, you know, folks have come to rely on it in a lot of different. In a lot of different ways. You know, you have. People will refer to their Mardi Gras spot, you know, in. In quotation marks. And that's where, you know, hey, my friends, my family, once a year, this is where you can find me along the parade route. This is where we set up. This is where we hang out. Sometimes we, you know, only see our friends there once a year because we all know we're going to be at the same Mardi Gras spot. And so it's just a deep part of the cultural tradition. The move that the mayor president put forward in October, I think did have one of the. One of the key things that has happened in Lafayette in the last 30 years is our key kind of downtown corridor of Jefferson street has gotten a streetscape and has become one of, if not our most vibrant corridors. And I think that there was a lot of the parade route when the original project had been done. The parade route had moved off of that corridor, had gone to wider corridors, corridors with now a little bit more space for, you know, parade vehicles are big, big vehicles. And so this effort was in part to kind of return to that nostalgic parade route of the pre1990s time frame. And, you Know, I think that there were several stakeholders that were excited about it, including one of the major Mardi Gras associations. You know, obviously, as you noted, the law, law enforcement was involved, but obviously you've, you've seen from the article and hopefully our listeners will go and read it. There's been quite a few others that maybe weren't part of the process in the decision to move it and are now concerned about, you know, their particular perspective and the impact their livelihoods or their, their life.

A (8:38)

Wanted to talk, you know, certainly about crowd control, some of the real, you know, factors that, that exist there, or not necessarily crowd control, but public security. But I wanted to start with kind of a broader question like who owns the parade in the community? Maybe first, is it city operated or is it actually an operation by a whole host of different hands? And then secondly, like that question of deeper ownership, more, more sort of philosophically like who is responsible for this thing that we share together? Because in that so many communities have, I think, their own version of this. You know, the folks up in Charlotte, Michigan, they have this like Nordic Festival where they just burn things all night. And, and it's become this point of contention where some people have said, well, we need to regularize that. And the folks that are behind it say no, like, let it be what it is. This is something that is so good for us and we can, we can address consequences or, you know, the knock on effects of this, but at the core we have to retain that sense of community pride and ownership over it. But maybe just to help clarify, like, if you were to be asked who, who owns this, what would you say?

B (9:43)

I think in a lot of ways that might be one of the problems because I think there was really a lack of clarity in the community about ownership. I think that even when this, this came forward and there started to be some, some confusion or some uncertainty about if this was what was, what was wanted by the community. There was, there was discussion about had there been an ordinance in the past that would govern this. And there was even confusion among the, the, you know, the attorneys on staff at the city as to whether or not there was an ordinance that governed this and, and whether or not the, the mayor, president's office had the ability to change it. So I think that, you know, there have been significant community champions and volunteers who have taken a very active role and I think over the years and in an association that, you know, is called the Greater Southwest Mardi Gras Association. And I think those folks feel a lot of ownership and so they May have. They may feel like, to some degree, they own the parade route, but then also, you know, you. You kind of alluded to some of the safety and security that happens alongside Mardi Gras, and it's quite significant, which is obviously, you know, in the case of our police department, a city resource that is, you know, pretty significantly deployed, probably our biggest kind of deployment of public safety officials annually. So it is. It is difficult, Norm, to actually answer your question, and I think that's part of how we got where we are, is some confusion about who. Whose decision is this to make and. And how do we make it?

A (11:35)

Well, and I wonder. I don't want to propose this, but, you know, if. If one of the routes or one of the early floats were to simply make a right turn instead of going straight, if you had actually, you know, what does it look like if the community decides, hey, this is still our route. These are still sort of our familiar paths. This is the process that we're going to follow. And I. I am probably at risk of being, you know, a little bit too loose with some of these things. And so, as you think of, you know, what are the obligations that you have to the community, certainly, you know, I think as. As I think about this as a strong citizen, I would want to know. I would want to be able to be informed, sort of participate in some way of. Of sharing feedback. But also, I think a key element is like, what problem is this solving? And do you have a sense of. Of kind of a knowledge maybe, that. I feel like that's a question that we should often ask as. As local advocates, is like, what. What problem is seeking to be solved? And then are there alternatives that haven't been considered? Um, how. How would you kind of reflect on that?

B (12:30)

That's a great question. Um, my suspicion, not having been, you know, obviously, maybe in the. The internal conversations, is that there is a sort of. There's a real desire. And. And, you know, I joked about it at the beginning, but I'm not joking. I mean, Lafayette, Mardi Gras is one of our seasons of pride, I would say, in terms of visitors and putting our best foot forward. And so I think when we think of putting our best foot forward for others to come and celebrate, whether it's people from the region or from other parts of the states or even from other countries, there's no doubt that Jefferson street, the primary, I would say, beneficiary of this move, is one of our most intimate, attractive, beautiful, vibrant, you know, kind of corridors that we. That we have and so, you know, I think that when we think about how we want to display Lafayette to the rest of the world, Jefferson street is certainly one of the key corridors that, you know, is put on postcards and things like that. So I suspect that that was one of the driving motivations combined with like, like we said earlier, maybe a nostalgia, like, which I don't know that nostalgia necessarily solves a problem, as you suggested. Right. Like what, what problem are we trying to solve? But you know, when you think of the, the Mardi Gras tradition, perhaps, and this is another way, you know, that it anchors, anchors the, the celebration in our community's roots. But I suspect it was more of the former of like, how do we put on our best performance to, to all the people who will come see us from far and wide.

A (14:27)

Yeah. And then one of the things that we talk about at Strong Towns is our four step process to public investment. I actually think there's relevance to that here because we would say identify where people are struggling, then identify and do the next smallest thing that you can do to address that struggle. And I wonder, especially in circumstances like this, where a major change is proposed in, if our cities often sort of default to, you know, give us feedback and we'll come back to you next year with like any sort of improvements. And I'd love to see instead this sort of nimble, like you could call it the next smallest thing. Task force. And their responsibility is simply if a property owner says, hey, I already leased, you know, the front yard, our front space, and I feel like I'm going to be out somehow figuring out how do we work with you, how do we, like, make it up to you in some small way. It wouldn't have to be like recouping everything, but figuring out, like, what are the likely impacts and like getting to it. And I'm reminded in my city in Delta, British Columbia, right when the pandemic happened, one of the things that our city council recognized, we were the first in the region to create a rapid approval process for outdoor patios. And what was stunning about it is not only did they create an approval to get the, or a process to get the approval, they also had almost like a concierge system, which is as soon as you've encountered another complication because you got that approval, so a curb needs to be moved or the layout of something has to be adjusted, a city sign is now obscured. They had a secondary level which was bring in that little note of here's what's going on. Can that sign get Moved. And the city acted on that as well. So they knew not just to give that upfront permission or, or upfront opportunity, but actually to create the conditions where that follow up didn't just become the now new reason why everybody would reject this. And I think of, you know, if we abstract out from just this particular example to more broadly, if you're going to bring in changes, what does that change management process actually look like? And you had to deal with this as, you know, planning director in the city and working in the mayor's office and working with other projects and stakeholders within the community over many years. How well do you adapt to change in, in the community? And I think how do we actually help people address that, like, little naggling thing that's just there for them and they're like, ah, if it wasn't for that, I'd be okay. Do you have any, you know, what, what are some of the things that could be done if you were to put on your, your thinking cap and say between now and March? We, we know that we've got a ways to go yet.

B (16:53)

Yeah. You know, it's interesting because, of course it's easy to kind of dream big when you're not in the conversation directly. Right. Um, but it, it is, it is worth considering. I think one of the things that that has happened is the, the beginning of the route has shortened. And so there are a lot of people, when I talked at the beginning of people having their spots and their places that they go and the places that they know, like, oh, there's going to be a space for me there, you know, really trying to understand, well, maybe would there be a way that the parade could potentially be longer? Right. And so that, like, you know, the, some of those historic spots don't necessarily go away, but there is a portion of the parade route that is able to be down Jefferson street to get some of that, some of the benefits that, that were that were perceived by moving it. I certainly think that doesn't solve every challenge, but that, that solves some of the challenges of the, the folks who feel like, you know, they're missing out on what used to be available to them. And then, you know, kind of taking that same approach to all of the, the folks that have been impacted in some way. I mean, you know, I think the challenge always in, you know, public service and providing services is it's very difficult and in this case, probably close to impossible to be all things to all people. Right. There are real constraints and sometimes real tradeoffs. And so it's it's difficult to be certain that, you know, when you're able to provide for one, are you, are you still able to provide for the other? And I think that's how in many cases this, this problem has gotten so difficult. Right. So almost unwieldy is that the different, the different folks who are speaking up about it from their own perspective all tend to have really valid concerns and valid aspirations. But I mean, of course I'm at Strong Towns because I love the four step process and I love thinking about what is the next smallest thing. And you know, perhaps if, you know, we had that lens ideally from the very beginning, there may have been ways to make this change in a more gradual format that would have been easier for everybody to get on board with.

A (19:38)

And help me understand. So the initial part of the parade route went through a much more residential area or what we, you know, what we would consider to be a residential area. Quieter, a little bit less likely to be sort of disrupted with any sort of regular activity like that. And, and then it proceeds more into the downtown area and then winds up at, at what's the, the Cajun field space. Were there, was there always sort of a mixed audience of folks who said, hey, I love it, but I also kind of like dread it or, you know, that's my two weeks to like leave the city or was there always, like, there's always the people that are so passionate and they're going to miss it and then other people who are going to feel that sense of immediate relief. This year I will be able to just like be in my home and I won't have to deal with it, but immediately that can be like suspicion laid in. That can be, you know, class based. That can be so many different layers to that. How do we grapple with some of those things? Because there will be that sense that now there's a new entrenched interest that says, please don't have it come back to my neighborhood. What are some of the things that we can do from a strong, tense perspective to. Except that, hey, if this is going through the public realm, these are things that are going to have an impact on those that live, you know, adjacent to it. But also we don't have exclusive control over our street. That is a shared community responsibility. And how do we kind of garner support for these things even while accepting that some people will always be against either the new thing or the old thing?

B (21:04)

Yeah, I mean, I think you're, you're definitely right. There are people that, you know, they've lived along the parade route for their whole life. And, you know, they are the first ones on the plane out of town when Mardi Gras comes. And then the exact opposite, right where this is, you know, they invite their 10 friends over and they're like, we don't even leave the house because we're just out in our front yard or out on our street just enjoying, enjoying the festivities. So it's. It's honestly a bit of both, which I think is. Is why, why the change in some cases has been so challenging for people. Because, you know, they. They felt like, I mean, it is, you know, not that unusual. Like, people will advertise, you know, people will buy in places where we still have Airbnbs allowed. You know, they will advertise that their Airbnb is on the. On the parade route. So these are things, you know, with, With, I guess, you know, whether you. In. Whether we knew it or not, things that people would come or have come to depend on. Right. That, you know, were kind of, you know, it's kind of scary when you think about that. It was a little bit amorphous in terms of who was in control because there were. There were so many people that were depending on it. And, you know, it's very, it's very interesting because the, you know, the ordinance that the article refers to is an ordinance to. To basically, you know, have the city council form a committee and that committee advises, and then the city council ultimately makes the decision. And the, you know, a lot of the messaging against that ordinance is to, you know, keep the city out of Mardi Gras, Right? And then the.

A (23:02)

Folks, can you share just a little bit more? Because. So I forgot to mention that in the intro that there is this not arrival ordinance, but sort of a follow up to the mayor's initial action in October to change the route based on the city's guidance, was then met with a council member who said, well, you know, this properly belongs to the people. Ergo, council is going to establish a committee, and then that committee can approve things or reject things, not just for Mardi Gras, but for a range of any kind of activities that are involving street closures and other things like that. And now the question is, does that actually, in a back way, formalize that every street closure is something that a committee has to review that has a lot of implications for things like block parties or other types of things that are also, you know, in. In response? I mean, many of these Mardi Gras festivals were spontaneous gatherings for the purpose of proceeding from one place to another. And now, you know, we, we hosted a block block party which was, you know, had far less noise and a lot less activity than Mardi Gras. But, you know, people said, oh, did you get a permit? I said, you know, don't tell anybody in Delta. I was like, no, of course not, like, because I actually reject the idea that, that such a thing should be required. And I think there's an element there that mirrors what the folks in Port Arthur, Texas, they also have a great Mardi Gras parade each year, and they had it going through their neighborhoods as the black community really embraced Mardi Gras together with the Acadian community. And then it was moved by the city and the tourism department out to sort of a whole other area. And the intent was to bring wealthier people to be able to show up, enjoy Mardi Gras, and then leave again without having to be like so ingrained in the neighborhood. And, and there was still, I think that was 20 years back. And yet the wounds still were real. And it was like, wow, that's really significant. And that sense of co opting ownership over something that otherwise was a community shared asset. And you know, maybe I'll let you respond in a moment. But the other thing too, whenever I hear that, you know, police have identified this route or that route, I will often say we need to put that cart before the, or put the cart behind the horse again, which is tell the route to the community safety professionals and say, this is the route. We would, you know, appreciate guidance, but your responsibility is to protect it. And if you say there is something that is simply non negotiable, we cannot, you know, have the route actually cross an active freeway. Sure. But in many cases we get into these situations and strong towns is critical of some of the public safety professions that are very like, quick to say we have veto. We actually have. We will be the ones that create the route, present it to you, and then make that the case. And I'm not saying that that's what's happened here in Lafayette, but I do think that there's a pattern there, that sometimes there can be this technical, know how that declares things off limits, that the community says, no, that's not off limits. That's, that's our decision. We're going to make it. And then you get to decide how you're going to react to those circumstances rather than dictating they can't happen in the first place. I'm not anti government, but sometimes I sound like it, Carly.

B (26:05)

Well, you know, I think that. No, I mean, I think that, you know, you think about it from the perspective of the public safety officer, and they are always like, okay, how do I create the conditions that are going to make it the most safe possible? Right. And I think that, like, I think what we're always trying to do at Strong Towns is, is say, like, yes, but there's always a balance of values, right? And so, and so, like, you know, we often talk about it in terms of street design, and so I'll go there first. But like, you know, if the fire truck has the curbs that. With the turning radii that allow them to, like, never mess up a curb and they're therefore they can drive really fast, well, that's great. But if that just creates more distance and more speed, that our pedestrians aren't safe anymore in our neighborhoods, like, these are. These are the things that we. We trade off. And so I think that understanding the complexity of public safety decisions is like. Is something that I think Strong Towns does a great job bringing to the table. And I think that, you know, if you do go read this article, it is very much from the perspective of we had a route and checked that it could be kept safe. And I think that you have a lot of other stakeholders in the conversation kind of raising their hand to say, but did you check X? And that X thing is the thing that's important to them. Right? So I think that, you know, understandably, our public safety professionals have gotten. They need. They're expected to keep us safe. They need to be excellent at communicating what that is. But I think that we also need people in positions of leadership who are able to talk about the other values that the community values, because absolutely, there are many other, you know, many other things that community members value that also need to be advocated for. And I think that's what you saw, you know, what you saw in. Come out in. In this article. And some of the business interests that are concerned or the. The organizational interests that are concerned that don't. Don't feel like maybe they had the same opportunity to speak before there was a new route kind of proposed and out there.

A (28:29)

And then you worked in planning within the city, and you've also been, you know, certainly watching as the city matures and grows, how is it that there isn't another Jefferson Street? And maybe I'm asking that a little bit provocatively, but if there are things on a street that we so highly value because it's where postcards are printed of, you know, in. In spades, because that's where people want to have their pictures taken. That's what they want to remember. How is it that is still in our ordinances, we've actually made many of those spaces impossible to build or recreate on, on adjacent streets. That all of the streets, not only through the downtown, but then in areas that are adjacent to the downtown, will start to resemble some of the local flavor and culture that is stands out on Jefferson Street. Do you have any sort of reflections on, like, why is it that Jefferson street is the place that the route has to go? In part because it's the only place where you'd be able to capture that sense of, you know, wall to wall activity and all of the like color and the vibrancy that goes with can be difficult.

B (29:27)

I think that we are, you know, we face this at strong towns every day, I think. So Streets are. A lot of people don't think of streets as productive places for communities. Right. They think of streets as serving their transportation purpose alone and getting them to and from the place they need to go as quickly as possible. And when they experience great streets, they want more of them. But then when that starts to become a reality, it. Even with the next street, you immediately hear, well, well, we can't do that because I need that to travel to, you know, my. My work or my office or, you know, whatever. So I think, I mean, you're right. We have a. We have plenty of good work to do here in Lafayette to make more streets like Jefferson Street. And I think that we can. But yeah, it's. It's a good challenge, Norm. I like it and I've never.

A (30:25)

I. This thought just occurred to me, so bear with me if it doesn't work. But the analogy of the way that we treated rivers for decades almost, you know, a couple centuries, that rivers, much like streets, were sort of the place that you use, you know. Yes. To connect things to things would just get sort of dumped onto them. And then all of a sudden, communities began to realize like, we had a gem, we had a natural asset, we had something wonderful. And then we kind of like took a dim view of it, partly because we were putting all these pollutants into it. Part of it was we were just, you know, there's, I think, a good reason why we talk about some streets as just being car sewers, much like our rivers became sewers in a lot of places. And then that. That turn, and if we began to really deeply value each of these streets as places to build prosperous opportunities for so many different participants, then you would really have that view that says, ah, we want this to be, you know, a little cleaner. But clean is not the only attribute of a great place. It's actually got to allow for beauty. It's got to allow for various uses. It can't just be a single monolithic user of that space that is getting to dictate the shots of what we do with that. And you know, I often wonder what, or kind of reflect on what Chuck has talked about in the city of Charleston where he said, yes, the 13 blocks that our historic Charleston are in one sense wonderful. But the question is, why didn't that happen in the rest of the city? To be able to continue a pattern that's so financially productive in greater, greater sort of reach out from there. But also what's happened in that area is you've turned it into a mini museum rather than allowing even those blocks to redevelop, to gradually sort of thicken up and improve and mature over time. And I think that comes to mind as we think of, you know, some of these places are, our downtowns are, are money pits. They, I mean, I'm sorry, money pots. They are, they're full of life.

B (32:20)

I was like, wait, what are you talking about?

A (32:22)

Yeah, yeah, no, I, I always. Money pit, money pot. It is definitely our money pot and such an important resource. And I, I, I love it. And you know, one of the things that we talk about with our Strongtown strengths test is if there were a revolution in your town, would people instinctively know where to gather, to participate? I think that's especially relevant with this one. If you're Interested, there's a 10 list, a list of 10 items rather on the Strongtown site about the Strongtown strengths test. But this one is especially relevant. Do people instinctively know where to gather to participate in sort of the life giving activities of our communities? And from that perspective, the new route seems to work. But in maybe in another respect, what I love about this is the level of interest in this. And can you describe why that is such an important quantity within our communities and where you've seen communities struggle to sort of grapple with widespread or deeply felt pride and interest and then the other areas where you've seen people really harness that and use it to, you know, to get to better.

B (33:27)

Yeah, I think that that's one of the reasons that this story was interesting to me and why I even suggested that we talk about it on Upzone. Because on the, on its surface, you know, you, you're kind of like, it's just a mardi Gras route. Right. It's it. But you know, it's really touched on something a lot deeper to a lot of people who are involved in one way or the other and kind of shown, I think, the depth of, you know, importance that these community institutions, even though this is more of an event, I also think of it as a community institution and how important it is to just a variety of sectors and how they celebrate it in different ways. You know, I'm, I know of a bakery in town that receives. This only has to do with Mardi Gras, not necessarily the route, but they get close to 70% of their revenue during king cake season. Like this is, this is people's livelihoods, you know, and, and so I think that the, you know, the opportunity to have a public discussion that, that allows us to share our values and hopefully productively move forward. You know, I think that probably everybody involved in this conversation has learned a lot. You know, whether they're, you know, whether they now find themselves on opposite sides with someone that they really, they really care about. They now have perspectives that we didn't start the conversation with in terms of, you know, frankly, what does Mardi Gras mean to me. And there are some people for whom it's the center of their cultural tradition. There are some people for, for whom it's the, you know, their businesses, best time of the year. There are some people who. It's when they leave town, you know, and I think you've, you've started to see this. You know, it, it gives you a sense of how important it is that we really approach these community wide institutions and events with, you know, a real respect about, like what, you know, we can't freeze them. Right. But what are. So if they are going to grow with the times, just like we talk about, just like we talk about housing and communities, like the change needs to be incremental so that it can change and it can continue to adapt. But, you know, maybe not so drastically that it, it is, you know, kind of tearing community apart. And in some level, you know, it's, it's very hard.

A (36:21)

Yeah. And so I, I can't wait to one day come, um, maybe I can, you know, I gotta make the arrangements. We'll have to do a national gathering there or something. Have it over lunch. But what is it that makes it awesome? How does it compare to other, other Mardi Gras, if you want to go there? But also, what, what can anybody expect if they show up in Lafayette?

B (36:41)

Oh, my goodness. Well, it is, I mean, of course I'm biased. I think people will say it is a more family friendly Mardi Gras. So if the, you know, I have certainly been to some great parades in New Orleans that were very family friendly, but I certainly, I certainly think the reputation of New Orleans is more raucous, you know, and, and Lafayette's Mardi Gras is very frame family friendly. There is always a ton to do. So it's a great, you know, it's a great community and it's, you know, hundreds of thousands of people celebrating and, you know, enjoying this celebration of culture. It's such a, such a unique time of year and it's, you know, people are happy to be a part of a community wide celebration. And I feel like we, you know, we don't have a ton of those. And so it's just kind of South Louisiana's flagship, I would say, celebration of culture. It's great to be a part of. And, you know, if anybody's listening and they want to come visit, let me know because I'd love to show them around.

A (37:51)

Yeah. And I got two more questions. What do I need to eat while I'm there? And what do I need to drink while I'm there?

B (37:57)

Oh, my gosh. So I am, I am the worst at this. But I will try. I mean, you of course, need to have gumbo and that's probably, that's probably. I mean, there's plenty of things like you can't get bad food in South Louisiana. You know, I mean, there's, there's gas stations that you can go into and have the best plate lunch of, of your life. Drinking. Man, I'm not, not the greatest. But you're always at that, but you're always going to find good stuff at various, any, any restaurant or bar will have something set up for you. So you're not going to go hungry or thirsty if you make it to Mardi Gras in South Louisiana. And you have to have a king cake. Absolutely have to have a king cake.

A (38:42)

Well, it's a good thing that Christmas is coming up here at the time of recording this because otherwise I would be so distracted by everything that lies ahead of me in Mardi Gras that I wouldn't even be able to focus. But I've yet to look forward to Christmas baking all of the good stuff that's coming. But we're going to pivot over to the down zone, which is where we just chat about what it is that we are taking in. That is, I would say, actually maybe I'll make it A rule. It can't be strong towns related, Carly. So what are you reading or taking in that is of interest to you?

B (39:11)

Well, this is only sort of strong towns related. So I'm going to break the rule.

A (39:15)

You're good.

B (39:16)

We are reading for our team reading. We're reading a book called Unreasonable Hospitality. And I am very much enjoying it in part because as I joke around when I'm talking to you or Chuck or others, I'm always, always trying to make friends, right. And so I'm enjoying, I'm enjoying the book because it, it takes a restaurant experience in New York City and how they, you know, I'm not all the way through, so I don't know what happens in the end, but just how they used. They use their team to build an outstanding restaurant and they kind of looked at every level to think what could they do differently to make it this unreasonably hospitable place to dine. And that was part of their secret to their excellence. And it's, I've really enjoyed it. I've. I'm think I'm about halfway through and I'm looking forward to, you know, rooting for them that at the end, you know, they get their four star rating.

A (40:14)

Yeah, I love it. And actually I'll say too as a little bit of programming in my work, especially with our membership program, if there's anything and you want to use a bit of a touchstone that you know will get our attention, just say, look, if there's a complaint that you have or something that's come up, just be like, this is, this is not consistent with an unreasonable hospitality mindset. And that will be like catnip. We'll be like, all right, we've got to adjust that. And we truly, I think internally we are taking that approach already. And I do want to highlight just for my down zone item is a book by Kevin Van Tegham from Lethbridge, Alberta. And it's called An Ecologist Memoir of Loss and Hope. It was a birthday present to me from my mother in law. I've started to work my way through it and it is beautiful. It's just wonderfully written. It's almost like poetry. Somewhat similar to another book that I'd recommended a while ago called Streams of Consequence by another Lethbridge author. And both of them are sort of like fine chocolate that you need a glass of wine to go with and you just sort of work through it. But it is this reflection on the understory. What do we see when we actually Take a look at the finer details of sort of peel back the leaf litter. Take a look at life. And I think there are so many applications of that sort of metaphor to the work of being a strong citizen in our community. I'm fascinated by the connection between, like permaculture and its approach to healing our natural landscapes, hearing our healing our farming practices. But then actually many of the same sort of applications can be made to the way that we build our stronger communities. Even doing things like treating a street like a good river and saying, let's not allow it to become polluted, let's allow it to be really vibrant and be all that it can be. And so I get really excited because I think when we take the skills of a conservation biologist and apply them to the question and the opportunity to examine how our cities work, we can learn so much. So that's the, that's the item that I have for today for the down zone and definitely recommend it. You will come along on a bit of a journey with me if you do that. Otherwise, go and read Unreasonable Hospitality. That is another great book. I think what I like about it is too, it's, it's cross discipline. It's taking stuff from a totally different field and saying, how do we apply that for our Strong Towns team, but also more broadly for the Strong Towns movement. With that, folks, thank you, Carly, for jumping in today to be our guest on UpZone.

B (42:37)

It was great. Thanks, Norm. I enjoyed it.

A (42:40)

Yeah. And for all the folks at the Lafayette Tourism Department, you can send us a check in the mail for having promoted the Lafayette Mardi Gras festival so well. But truly, I think this has been a provoking conversation in good ways and I appreciate you all taking the time to listen in. And so take care and take care of your places, folks. This episode was produced by strongtowns, a non profit movement for building financially resilient communities. If what you heard today matters to you, deepen your connection by becoming a Strong towns member@strongtowns.org membership.