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- [00:00]
A
How do you get from this mission statement?
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B
Our mission is simple. Affordable homes for America to tenants like they are attempting to charge me 1,600. There was no stove in the house. Have been bullying, harassing, and potentially scamming me. I actually felt safer in Bagram and Kandahar than I do in my own home.
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A
Now, was it just incompetence? Was this mismanagement? Or were these companies operating according to a set of incentives that made dysfunction not just common, but inevitable? Check out Stacked Against Us, a new podcast by Strong Towns now available on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.
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B
This is Abby and you are listening to Upzoned. Got my bus pass. Finer downtown with a fine ladies in the peeps. Hey everyone, thanks for listening to another episode of Upzone to show where we take a big story from the news each week that touches the Strong Town's conversation. And we upzone it, we talk about it in depth. My name is Abby Newsham. I'm a planner in Kansas City. And today I am joined by a brand new guest that I've never had on the show before, Carly Almbar. Is that how I pronounce your name, Carly?
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C
Got it perfectly. Thank you.
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B
You guys all have such, such cool name. Carly is the chief of staff for Strong Towns and this is our first time meeting, I think formally. So yes. Great to meet you.
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C
Emails and slack messages. So this is awesome. I'm excited, I'm excited to meet you, excited to be with you today, Abby.
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B
I'm excited to have you on. So maybe before we talk about this article, you can share a little bit about yourself. What brought you to Strong Towns? What's your background? Yeah, be great to get to know you a little bit more.
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C
Absolutely. So I have now been at Strong Towns for about a year and a half, which is time just flies, as we all say. Before that. I'm based in Lafayette, Louisiana and I came to Strong Towns because I worked in a mayor's office here. Mayor President Joey Durrell was his name and we were engaged in a comprehensive plan. And so Chuck and Joe Minicozzi from Urban3 came and did some work with us during that time back in 2012, 2013, 2014. You've probably seen, and I'm sure some of the listeners have seen the work about Lafayette. I was the project manager on the city side there. So I've known Chuck and been familiar with Strongtown's work for more than 10 years now. And so when the chief of staff opening came up a little bit ago, Chuck reached out and here I Am So my career has been about half local government and half nonprofit. And so this was like a nice match of the two.
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B
Absolutely. What a, what a cool, what a cool experience to get to work on a comprehensive plan in a mayor's office and then go work for strong towns. That's, that's awesome.
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C
Yep, it's been great.
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B
Are you engaged at all with the work that Monte Anderson and Bernice Radl are doing? They, they're with Neighborhood Evolution and are working in Lafayette.
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C
Believe so every time they come to town, I find them and hang out with them as much as they'll have me. It's been, it's been great to have them here. And I think like, we've had so many people here locally that have had projects advanced because of their support and encouragement and ideas. So it's been really, it's been really fun. It's also kind of shown me firsthand sometimes how hard this stuff can be, you know, and they've just been great though. People love having them and they've been coming now for a couple years and are doing really great work.
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B
Yeah. And I guess for. No, for anybody who doesn't know about what Monty and Bernice are doing and not to make this an advertisement about them, but what they're doing is really cool. They, their, their firm is called Neighborhood Evolution and they are basically working one on one as, you know, doing mentorship programs with people who are interested in incremental development. And so, yeah, I believe they've worked with people in like South Bend. They visited Kansas City a few times, but they haven't done like the formal program like they're doing in Lafayette and in Dallas and other areas of the country. But what they're doing is so cool. And I think it really helps to fill the gap of like, what small scale developers are missing in this whole thing because there's so many classes on real estate that you can take, but real estate is such a hands on thing that you, you really need somebody that you can call when you get like a bid for plumbing and to say, oh, is this ridiculous? What do I do? Do I need to get more.
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C
Did I do this?
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B
You know?
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C
Yeah, it's just my development needs plumbing.
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B
Exactly. Yeah. It's just, I think it's, it's just that very like a to B, B2C type of mentorship that is critical. So it's really cool what they're doing and I'm glad that you're friends with them as well. Yeah.
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C
Yeah. We love having them down here and we're really fortunate that our local economic development authority has partnered with them and is really helping a lot of different people across the community.
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B
That's awesome. Great. Well, great to meet you. You sent me a really fun article that I'm excited to talk about today. This was published in the New York Times by Jim Cerol. The title is A Town's single Largest taxpayer is also its biggest Headache. So this story discusses a familiar site across North America, which is empty shopping malls. These were once the beating heart of many small towns and suburban communities and are now struggling quite badly with vacancies and dwindling foot traffic and really uncertain futures. The article here really focuses on the Berkshire Mall, which is located in Lanesboro, Massachusetts. It's 720,000 square feet, opened in 1988, and it is the town's single largest taxpayer. Its peak was in 2007, and at the time it generated $2.3 million in annual tax revenue and even helped to subsidize the police department, the school. Schools pay for road maintenance, and now it's very much going in the other direction, which is quite a reckoning for this town of how they're going to pay for these departments and the maintenance that they used to rely on the mall to pay for. So for small towns especially, the decline of the mall represents kind of more than just shuttered storefronts. It's this question of what replaces these huge, massive properties and whether communities can reasonably adapt in financially resilient ways. So one thing that the article mentioned that I thought was interesting is that we used to have over a thousand malls in the U.S. now we have about 950 and 10 to 20 shut down every year, which doesn't sound like a lot, but when you think of all the land that is left in the wake of a mall closing, it's it, you know, in, in urbanized areas and towns, it's pretty impactful. So it raises this question of how, how towns and even suburbs can face these vacancies without avoiding the trap of chasing the next big thing and do something more productive and sustainable with the land. So, Carly, I'm so glad you brought this article because it's fascinating. I. I have a mall in the city that I grew up not in, but near, which is out in Chesterfield. The chesterfield Mall in St. Louis shut down and for many years. I think there's plans to do something with that land, but it's just been a slow death and there's so many implications to that. But something that I've really noticed is how emotional people feel about their malls when they close down. It really makes people. People are very nostalgic about these places, right? Yeah.
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C
Yeah. Well, you know, this is a small piece of the article, but there was a quote in the article to speak to your nostalgia point. There was a quote in the article that when the mall was headed there, the town thought it was a great idea because of the tax revenue. They never foresaw the end game. And when I read that quote, you know, I don't doubt that there were many civic leaders at the time and. And municipal officials who were excited about the tax revenue. But there is also this pride associated with, you know, if you're a town of. It looks like this community is about 3,000 people. Like, if you land a mall, that means that you've made it, you know, and so there. When you say nostalgia, I think about the. The pride that when that community opened their mall, it must have been the biggest deal and one of the biggest things that happened to them. And so there. Even if they could have foreseen the end game, they might have been incentivized to ignore it simply by the. The prestige and the opportunity that they saw for their community to kind of take the next step forward, you know, to continue growing. So I do think that there's a lot of emotion tied up in how our communities grow and the opportunities that are presented to our leaders and our economic developers, and keeping those in line with what our cities can really sustain is sometimes really hard for communities to do.
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B
Yeah, definitely. And I think a lot of. I think partly because of the nostalgia, there is this desire, has been a desire in the past to, like, try to refurbish the buildings and reutilize these buildings, try to make them something different or even revive, you know, the community center into something that, you know, brings people in and kind of tries to replicate that model without being a mall. And it seems like that's becoming less and less viable. Like, these buildings are very uniquely built. I mean, they're like. They're kind of like airports. Like, they're very unique structures that are built for a very particular purpose and are not readily adaptable, like, into housing or other uses. It just isn't easy to reutilize these buildings. And so there's a lot of nostalgia that comes with just the loss of that. As you know, it used to be the. The. The downtown square, the. The downtown main street that was kind of the mall for people before malls were a thing. And. And in this suburbanized era, flipped and became this kind of interior space that people can go to. And, I mean, I have many childhood memories being at the mall. And it, it's interesting to think about the fact that kids today, kids these days are not spending time at the malls. Right, right.
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C
Right. Well, I, I think the other thing that struck me, you know, because I was, I was reading the article and thinking about my own community and our malls, which are not at this state, but have struggled over the years. And, you know, one of the things I looked up is the community of Lanesboro only has a population of about 3000 people. And the, you know, the square footage of this mall was 720,000 square feet. So I was like, okay, well, let me do some quick. That's enough for every resident of Lanesboro to have 240 square feet to themselves. But there's. There's a town there, right? They. They can't all be in the mall all the time.
- [12:23]
B
No, they sure can't. So the.
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C
I think that the, the conversation that I think the malls can force for many communities and the conversation that we have at Strongtowns all the time is, is one of scale. And, you know, when we talk about the suburban development pattern, we may say, like building, you know, building things to a finished state. Well, certainly, like this mall was built at such a. A scale that it wasn't necessarily something that the community was likely to be able to keep up with simply from a, from a numbers game. You know, they were, they were. From day one, they were depending on traffic, I'm sure, from outside the community. And there are certainly communities that surround this area. But it's, it is a lot when those communities, when those communities have the next mall to travel to. They don't have, they don't have the same sense of nostalgia or responsibility to Lanesboro that the, that the residents who live there do.
- [13:29]
B
Absolutely. And the fact that now this. The community is essentially left holding the bag on all the infrastructure that's around the mall. And, you know, there's probably this sense that the land needs to be put to productive use. And depending on where it is, it. It's not always easy to just, you know, tear down the building and build something new. I mean, I'm looking at actually the Berkshire Mall right now on. On Google, and it's actually in a very remote kind of area, kind of surrounded by. It's not really a place. It's. It's surrounded by some government buildings. There's what looks like. I don't know what this is, but it's like it's like store outside storage of some sort, maybe associated with the government buildings. But yeah, it's not really a place. I mean, it's certainly not a place that I think people would want to like, live in an apartment building, which is what I would imagine would be the proposal in this area. It's not integrated into anything like a downtown is. So it's tough. Like, what do you really do with these? Do you just kind of let them be and let them become something industrial in this context or semi industrial? Does it make sense to try to revive something to bring people to this place? Or should resources be focused in other parts of the city that are already have activity so you can have more incremental things happening within the town? Right.
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C
And I mean, I think these are the, these are the, the questions that I'm sure the, the folks in Lanesboro are, are dealing with. And the, you know, even the mall itself is, it looks like a little bit, like you said, it's kind of remote from the other areas of the city with activity, at least from, from what we can tell from where we are, from our bird's eye view, so to speak. So it's, it is just, it's a very, it's a very challenging thing for these folks. And now that they are dealing with, they are, of course, as the article says, dealing with it from a tax revenue perspective, which has been a big challenge. And, and you know, they are now facing declining budgets and struggling to keep up with services now that the value of the mall is, is not what it was, you know, from a revenue perspective.
- [16:07]
B
And one of the things that was mentioned in this article that I thought was interesting is that one consideration is that this is not just about sales tax loss, but also property tax losses. Because these real estate companies that are holding these malls, they are, it's kind of like the, the Walmart where they go to the assessors conferences and are making the case that, that, that these buildings aren't worth anything and therefore the taxes should be lower. And it's like that they, they don't really want to keep paying taxes on these properties. And so cities are being impacted in that way as well. And so essentially it's becoming blight and the owners are just going to be reluctant to make improvements. And to redevelop a property takes. Really does create a lot of impact on communities. When you have this very large swath of land that kind of suddenly becomes unusable.
- [17:09]
C
Right? And from the perspective, you know, of the, of the real estate companies, the, the Article shares, you know, the property has sold for successive lower amounts over the last as it has changed hands. So it frankly makes sense that the property taxes have gone down. So I think that the, you know, I think that while that is really hard on communities and community leaders, you certainly also understand that someone who buys the property doesn't expect to pay the property taxes associated with the building at its peak, but the property taxes associated with the building at its value today. And that, you know, that makes sense in a lot of ways as much as it has like negative ramifications for our communities and our budgets.
- [18:05]
B
Yeah. And I also am thinking about just the argument around why this has all happened. How did we get here? Because I think a lot of people would point to companies like Amazon and you know, At Home Delivery, the, the rise of E Commerce Essential as being the reason that, that malls are failing. And I think that's, that's kind of one side of it. But there's also this, there's also this point that malls were really always artificially propped up by cheap debt and auto dependence and cities leveraging tax incentive tools and paying for infrastructure. And there's always been different ways that things are subsidized and supported. You know, towns giving away tax incentives and building the infrastructure, shouldering all those long term liabilities to actually lure the malls in and to attract them because they know it will create a lot of tax revenue. And now that they're empty, the public is really stuck paying for all of these oversized roads and utilities and land maintenance long after these investors have walked away.
- [19:17]
C
It can be scary. And I think that it's why, why I think that the idea of thinking, thinking at scale and what you can, what you can reasonably sustain is so powerful because you're so much better able to recover from a failure when the scale is, is within reach. You know, this community of 3,000 people, you know, it, it is difficult from here, from this vantage point to imagine how they collect the capital to entice someone to invest because someone who is looking at that mall is going to look at how many shoppers are nearby and what's the population. And you know, they're not, they're not going to probably see a market that they understand how to be really profitable in. And so the folks locally are left trying to figure out what, what to do with this land in this space. And in the meantime, as you said, it's becoming, it's becoming blight.
- [20:20]
B
Yeah, yeah. And really they, these malls represent like a monoculture in the real estate world. Because they are kind of one big bet on a single format. I know there's multiple stores, but it really is this big footprint format that in order for it to be healthy, you need to have all of these different corporate retailers plugging into it. And that first generation of the mall, when you have all these new users plugged in and it's working, I mean, that's really the heyday. And then once you start losing certain retailers, they go to other places, things start turning around. I mean, it's a very slow death. And I think just like monoculture farming, there's so much vulnerability in that model. And when consumer habits are changing, the whole system collapses. And when you look at, you know, the traditional downtown area, they actually may cover as much or less land than a mall, like a historic downtown district in small towns or probably a lot smaller than a mall. Yet, you know, they. They probably produce more value per acre than the entire site of a mall. And if you look at these downtown areas, there's so much opportunity to really build up what's already happening on those main streets. And the fact that these areas have continued to have, you know, businesses over time, I think it really points to how resilient that model is versus the mall, which feels like it was kind of. It's like built all at once to a finished state, and then it all just kind of declines all together at the same time.
- [22:14]
C
Right. Well, and I think too, about. If you think of the. I'm sure a lot of your listeners have, are either living in suburban communities, are very familiar with a suburban community they may have grown up in. And you know, I think about the two communities I have the most familiarity with. And there's. There's. They're always kind of growing out to the next cool development.
- [22:37]
B
Right?
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C
And so at one point, the mall might have been the next cool development, but when you. When you sprawl to the next cool development, that inevitably, you know, leaves. Leaves them all in a slightly less great place than before. And so, you know, it is that kind of that. And then you juxtapose that with like the downtown of your community, which has been. Certainly has probably been through ups and downs, but has remained the downtown and has been forced to adapt over many years and have investment and disinvestment and reinvestment through. Through several cycles. That level, because the scale of the investment of a mall is so big, getting that. That next wave of investment, and because the locations are not always optimal for continued investment, getting that next layer of investment or reinvestment is is proving much harder. And I think that's why you're seeing, you know, the numbers that you quoted at the beginning, like the numbers of malls that are closing.
- [23:47]
B
Exactly. Well, when you think about just how much land we've developed in this country and how much sprawl there is, these kinds of stories do pose this question in my head of like, does every site deserve to be redeveloped or should every site be redeveloped? I know when we look at malls specifically, there's a lot of kind of big. There's a lot of big ideas and big schemes that get dreamt up. Redevelopment plans for casinos or outlet centers, sports arenas, or even suburban retrofit, which is great, doing a town center, downtown kind of thing. But it does make me wonder, is this just a new version of the same fragile bed that we're making on these huge sites to do big, lofty redevelopment plans that may or may not work out down the road? We certainly can't. We can't foresee whether or not something will work out. I'm sure when people were building malls, they couldn't foresee that E commerce would be a thing or that consumer behaviors would change. But I guess the point that I'm getting at is that it makes me continually wary of kind of the next big, big thing, the big master plan, the thing that's going to come in and save this giant site that's become an eyesore and a crater in the community.
- [25:23]
C
Yeah. And especially when the. Those giant sites are serving populations or needs that extend so far beyond that community. Like, how do you maintain that into the future? You know, this, this. This was probably not just built. I mean, I know that the article indicated that the. Initially when they built it, they had approached the larger city of Pittsfield to. To build it. That community is about 45,000 people. Possibly would be in a better, better position to, you know, continue supporting. Like its population may have been in a better position to continue supporting that mall, but it is still, you know, it's still a lot of square feet of retail. And, you know, now they're looking at projects like housing. And, you know, that is, like you said, retrofits are a big possibility for projects like this, but also extraordinarily expensive Given the scale of 720,000 square feet. It's very hard to, you know, bite that off into smaller chunks.
- [26:41]
B
Exactly. And just looking at this site in particular, if the idea is we're going to, you know, tear this down and build a bunch of housing, we're going to do a new plan on this site, it does make me wonder if housing is the need in this place. Yes, it's a great story to, you know, take a. Take a site, an old mall and repurpose it and save the day. And, hey, we did something different. I agree that. That that's an engaging story that appeal. I'm sure it will appeal to investors, but it's like, why is this really the right place to put housing? Are these the right sites to reinvest in, or are there other areas within communities spatially that may be more appropriate for these different repurposings? And from the perspective of thinking about incremental development, I think that's really where things get flipped upside down, that we. We do have lots of redevelopment opportunities all in our cities and towns, but they happen to be really small and they're not big craters, so they don't get as much attention. The vacant lot, the. The abandoned house, you know, the duplex that needs love. They're very small investments, and they're not playing in this. This game of, you know, big deals, big things happening. And they certainly don't get the political attention that, you know, redeveloping a big mall site would get.
- [28:19]
C
For example, 100, 100. And I. And I think that that's one of the reasons, I mean, on a personal note, that I'm so happy to be at Strong Towns, because those are the act now that we are trying so hard to celebrate and so hard to communicate about so that communities and cities understand how valuable those types of people working in their communities are and how, you know, the same attention that communities bring to the outside developers, they can bring that attention and care to developers within their own communities and people that are investing, you know, locally. And it doesn't have to be, you know, for. For the city leaders out there that may be nervous, it doesn't have to be to the exclusion of supporting these bigger things. It can just start with figuring out ways to support your local ecosystem of developers. And like the work you referenced at the beginning that Monty and Bernice are doing here in Lafayette, it's. It's all about supporting the people who are trying to invest locally at a much smaller scale.
- [29:28]
B
Yeah. And I think even from a master planning perspective, if there are opportunities, even if. Even if there is, you know, the need to take these sites and do a larger master plan, I would really promote the idea of finding ways to, I guess, break up these sites into smaller parcels and opportunities for more varied ownership of buildings that get built. You know, whether you're using These sites to build a new apartment complex or a town square or a mix of many different things. I just would really encourage us all to be thinking about how do we break things down into smaller scales so that we can have more varied ownership of. Of all of this land. Because I think that we can see when we have one owner and very large swaths of land in a city that can really be impacted by mismanagement or the vision of one owner or a number of different things. And so I think that can be very fragile to put so much area of land and economic power into the hands of one company managing it.
- [30:53]
C
Yeah. And it's. It is also, you know, for community, sometimes when that investment comes from outside the town is just another. Another, I guess, distance or layer where, you know, even the. Even the property owners that have the greatest care and intentions, they're still. They're still not there every day to see the property and to understand. So to me, it's what I thought this, this article did a good job of, is understanding, you know, kind of like the, These, these big projects pose risks to communities at the same time that they offer opportunities to communities. And it can be so tempting to just evaluate the opportunities and, and not be wired to evaluate the risks. And I think sharing Lanesboro's story, you know, you really feel for those community leaders who are now, you know, they weren't the ones in the 80s who wooed this mall. And it's not even clear that at the time there were incentives, at least according to the article. They were probably.
- [32:06]
B
Certainly the people are not the same.
- [32:08]
C
Yeah, absolutely. And so, you know, they might have been teenagers who were like, super excited to have their first. First date at the mall, you know, and now they are recovering. You know, they're trying to put the community on a pathway to recovery from this disinvestment.
- [32:26]
B
Absolutely. Yeah. Well, okay, let's leave it there. This is great. I really appreciate you bringing this to today's conversation, Carly. I guess we didn't talk about the down zone. This is your first time on upzone. Do you have a down zone for me ready?
- [32:41]
C
I. I actually. I actually do. It's to share a little. Well, why don't you say, remind people what the down zone is and. Oh, yeah, of course I'm ready. Of course.
- [32:55]
B
So the down zone is the part of the show where we share anything that has been captivating our time and attention these days. So it can be a book, it can be music, it could be activities, whatever you'd like to share. All right.
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C
Well, I'm going to go with an activity because I spent a good chunk of my weekend, I'm involved here locally with a project called the 24 Hour Citizen Project that recruits civic ideas. And it's very strong towns because it's very small in scale. I think the biggest project we've ever done is about $5,000. We do a weekend in November where we bring forward the eight best civic ideas and a team of backers invest in usually about of them, and then we work with them all year to bring those ideas to the community. So there. I've been a volunteer with this kind of scrappy group of people for a few years now. And over the weekend we did our first round of interviews for who's going to make the stage this year in November. And it's, it's a ton of fun. It's really something that, you know, if you, if you Google 24 hour citizen project, you'll see some of the things that the, the initiative has brought to life in Lafayette. And it's a lot of really great, great stories of, of people who care about their community and are using a little bit of money to make a really cool vision come true.
- [34:21]
B
That's very cool. The more I hear about Lafayette, Louisiana, the more I want to visit.
- [34:28]
C
Please do. I would love to, love to host you. We would welcome you with open art.
- [34:33]
B
That's great. I'll have to. I'll have to find a time to go down. Maybe next time Monty and Bernice are visiting.
- [34:38]
C
I'll absolutely.
- [34:40]
B
I'll latch on to there. Yeah. Awesome. Okay. Very cool. Well, I'd love to hear more about that actually, but I'll look it up after we get off today.
- [34:50]
C
Yeah, and I think we might be doing. Listeners can also listen to Bottom Up Revolution because I think there's going to be an episode about that with the founder coming. Coming up soon. I don't think it's aired yet, so.
- [35:01]
B
Oh, great. Okay, well, everybody go listen to Bottom Up Revolution if you don't listen to that podcast also by Strong Towns. So hopefully if you listen to this one, you also listen to that one. Well, I guess I will share. So I've been growing tomatoes all, all season, which is like not. Not that much of an activity. They're pretty easy. They're very delicious once they are. Yeah, they're. They're pretty easy to grow in Missouri at least. Apparently on my property. I put some seeds down and this is. This was the first time growing in this particular garden bed because it was new and I Have so many tomatoes right now of all different types. And every day I'm going out and I'm picking more and I like my half my refrigerator is tomatoes right now. So I'm like finding ways to use them. It started with, well, I made chili one day. That's an easy one. And you know, making tomato, mozzarella, you know, caprese, that kind of thing. But yesterday I actually, me and my boyfriend made Hungarian goulash and it was so good. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, yeah. And learned how to do new things with tomatoes, you know, to get the skin off and create tomato paste and. Yeah, yeah.
- [36:32]
C
You're making me hungry.
- [36:33]
B
Abby.
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C
My lunch was not big.
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B
Oh, it was so good. I actually, I have quite a bit left and I wish that I could send it to you because it was very good. But. Yeah, so I'm just. Right now I'm in the market for tomato recipes so that I can not waste these. I think the next thing I'm going to look at is making sauces and salsas. Anything that I can do to, to, to use them because I just was not expecting them to do as well as they did.
- [37:04]
C
Yeah. That's amazing. That's amazing. I'm very done. We had a few potted tomato plants, but being in south Louisiana, we're, we're done with that for the summer. Yeah, they couldn't, can't make it through August.
- [37:16]
B
Oh, really? They just. Yeah, they just burn up. Yes.
- [37:20]
C
At least the ones in pots. I'm not. I haven't navigated to the whole like bed, raised beds yet. We'll see.
- [37:26]
A
Yeah.
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B
Yeah. Okay. Well, hey, thank you so much for joining me, Carly. Hopefully you will come back on. You did great. So I enjoyed it.
- [37:36]
C
I'm glad to join you anytime you need.
- [37:39]
B
Good, good. Excellent. Well, I'll see you next time then. Thank you so much for joining me. And thanks everybody for listening to another episode of Upzoned.
- [37:47]
C
Thanks, Carly. Thanks.
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B
Let me show you what I'm about to do.
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C
This episode was produced by Strong Towns.
- [37:55]
B
A non profit movement for building financially resilient communities. If what you heard today matters to you, deepen your connection by becoming a strongtowns member@strongtowns.org membership.