Upzoned Podcast: When a Town's Biggest Taxpayer Becomes Its Biggest Problem

Host: Abby Newsham (Strong Towns)
Guest: Carly Almbar (Chief of Staff, Strong Towns)
Date: October 22, 2025

Overview

This episode of Upzoned focuses on a timely New York Times article covering the decline of the Berkshire Mall in Lanesboro, Massachusetts, and the broader implications for small towns across America. Abby Newsham and guest Carly Almbar (her first time on Upzoned) use the Berkshire Mall’s story as a lens to examine the fragility and consequences of relying on large, single-use developments for municipal tax bases—and how towns might build more resilient futures.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Berkshire Mall: From Pride to Problem

[05:32 – 08:34]

• Berkshire Mall (720,000 sq ft, opened 1988) was Lanesboro’s biggest taxpayer, providing $2.3M/yr in tax revenue at its peak.
• Its decline left a huge tax void, threatening essential services like schools and police.
• This story is echoed in towns nationwide as shopping malls shutter due to changing consumer habits and economic shifts.

Notable Quote:

“These were once the beating heart of many small towns and suburban communities and are now struggling quite badly with vacancies and dwindling foot traffic and really uncertain futures.” – Abby [05:38]

2. Emotional and Civic Impact of Mall Closures

[08:34 – 10:09]

• Mall closures trigger nostalgia and a sense of loss for communities, beyond just economic consequences.
• Towns took pride in landing a mall, often seeing it as a sign of having “made it.”

Notable Quote:

“There is also this pride associated... If you land a mall that means that you’ve made it, you know, and so...even if they could have foreseen the end game, they might have been incentivized to ignore it simply by the prestige.” – Carly [08:46]

3. The Challenge of Reuse and Adaptation

[10:09 – 11:39]

• Repurposing malls is difficult due to their specialized structure and often isolated locations.
• Unlike traditional downtowns, malls aren’t easily adapted for mixed-uses like housing.

“They’re kind of like airports—very unique structures that are built for a very particular purpose and are not readily adaptable.” – Abby [10:22]

4. The Question of Scale and Sustainability

[12:25 – 13:28]

• The scale of these developments often outstrips the capacity of small towns to sustain or repurpose them.
• Example: 3,000 residents in Lanesboro for a 720,000 sq ft mall (“enough for every resident to have 240 sq ft to themselves” – Carly [11:39]).

Discussion:

• Malls were built at a scale that relied inherently on external shoppers, not just the resident population.
• When neighboring town populations shift their shopping habits, the financial model collapses.

5. Tax Revenue: From Boom to Bust

[16:06 – 17:09]

• Mall owners now appeal for lower property assessments as revenues drop, further gutting municipal budgets.
• The ownership model (often distant, capital-focused firms) puts towns in a vulnerable position, stuck maintaining infrastructure long after the economic engine has died.

“It’s kind of like the Walmart where they go to the assessors conferences and are making the case that these buildings aren’t worth anything and therefore the taxes should be lower.” – Abby [16:12]

6. Structural Fragility and Monoculture

[20:20 – 22:13]

• Malls are real estate “monocultures”—a single large bet on one use and ownership structure.
• Failure is often total and slow, making replacement and resilience challenging.
• By contrast, incremental, mixed-use downtown development proves more resilient over time.

“Just like monoculture farming, there’s so much vulnerability in that model. And when consumer habits are changing, the whole system collapses.” – Abby [20:41]

7. Sprawl, Redevelopment, and the "Next Big Thing" Temptation

[23:47 – 26:41]

• Discussion on whether every empty site demands a new large-scale project: casinos, town centers, outlet malls, etc.
• Carly and Abby caution against new mono-solutions for failing old ones.
• Scale needs to be right-sized, locally appropriate, and adaptable—rather than repeating the cycle with another “big bet.”

“Is this just a new version of the same fragile bet that we’re making on these huge sites?” – Abby [23:55]

8. The Case for Small-Scale, Incremental Development

[28:18 – 30:53]

• Small, incremental investments are more sustainable, adaptable, and often overlooked amid the allure of mega-projects.
• There's greater resilience and opportunity in supporting local, gradual development than in gambling public resources on the next savior project.

“Communities...can bring that attention and care to developers within their own communities...it’s all about supporting the people who are trying to invest locally at a much smaller scale.” – Carly [28:31]

9. Diverse Ownership and Local Control

[29:27 – 30:53]

• Promoting diverse and smaller-scale ownership increases resilience and reduces risk.
• A single owner with a massive tract (mall) leaves towns extraordinarily vulnerable—mismanagement can be catastrophic.

“It can be very fragile to put so much area of land and economic power into the hands of one company managing it.” – Abby [30:44]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Mall Nostalgia and Civic Pride

• “It must have been the biggest deal and one of the biggest things that happened to them..." – Carly [08:56]

Scale Mismatch

• “This mall was built at such a...scale that it wasn’t necessarily something that the community was likely to be able to keep up with simply from a...numbers game.” – Carly [12:27]

Incremental Development

• “They happen to be really small and they’re not big craters, so they don’t get as much attention...” – Abby [27:18]

Resilience

• “That’s one of the reasons...I’m so happy to be at Strong Towns, because those are the acts now that we are trying so hard to celebrate and so hard to communicate about so that communities and cities understand how valuable those types of people working in their communities are...” – Carly [28:23]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro & Guest Introduction – [00:47 – 04:04]
• The Berkshire Mall as Economic Engine – [05:32 – 08:34]
• Nostalgia and Mall Decline – [08:34 – 11:39]
• Reuse Challenges & Structure Limitations – [10:09 – 11:39]
• Scale, Population, and Economic Impact – [11:39 – 13:28]
• Tax Revenue Decline & Property Value – [16:06 – 18:04]
• Why Did Malls Fail? – [18:04 – 20:20]
• Monoculture & Resilience of Downtowns – [20:20 – 23:47]
• Sprawl and the Temptation of Big Solutions – [23:47 – 26:41]
• Incrementalism vs. Mega-Projects – [28:18 – 30:53]
• Summing Up, Local Ownership, Resilience – [29:27 – 32:07]

Downzone: What’s Captivating Their Attention

Carly [33:08]:

• Involved with the “24 Hour Citizen Project” in Lafayette, LA—small-scale citizen-driven projects capped at $5,000, supporting local civic engagement.

  “A lot of really great, great stories of people who care about their community and are using a little bit of money to make a really cool vision come true.” [34:10]

Abby [35:00]:

• Growing tomatoes and experimenting with cooking (e.g., Hungarian goulash, Caprese salad).
  • “I have so many tomatoes right now of all different types. And every day I’m going out and I’m picking more and... half my refrigerator is tomatoes right now.” [35:16]

Conclusion

Abby and Carly underscore the lessons from Berkshire Mall: Towns must weigh immediate economic opportunity against long-term sustainability, right-size their ambitions, and invest in incremental, local development over “big bets.” The conversation cautions against repeating old mistakes with new mega-projects, instead encouraging communities to support a resilient, locally-driven growth strategy.