Podcast Summary: Upzoned

Episode Title: Zoning Reform Is Only Step 1 in Fighting the Housing Crisis
Date: December 10, 2025
Host: Abby Newsham (Planner, Kansas City)
Guest: Edward Erfurt (Chief Technical Advisor, Strong Towns)

Main Theme & Purpose

This episode dives into the hot topic of state-level zoning preemption as a response to the housing crisis, focusing on Utah's proposal to override local zoning powers to increase housing supply. The conversation explores whether such state interventions truly address affordability, or if deeper reforms are necessary—including changes to finance, development culture, and support for small-scale builders.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Utah’s Zoning Preemption Proposal: Context and Debate

• Utah faces a projected shortfall of 50,000 homes within a decade (00:55).
• State leadership is considering overriding local zoning to encourage higher-density housing (00:20). This would follow similar moves in other states focused on increasing "supply, supply, supply."
• The traditional suburban, single-family character of Utah makes this move especially significant.

Memorable Quote:

"State preemption is really not about saying people must do this, but rather more so about letting people do what they want."
— Abby Newsham summarizing Ali Quinlan (01:22)

2. Why State Preemption Often Fails to Deliver Affordable Housing

Edward Erfurt draws from on-the-ground examples to explain why legalizing denser housing types (“allowed by right”) doesn’t always translate to new construction (“possible in practice”).

• Barriers beyond zoning:
  • Overly complex permitting processes, especially for small projects like ADUs (03:34–06:09).
  • Lack of contractors and labor trained or willing to build small-scale infill housing (06:09).
  • Difficulties in obtaining financing for new housing types (06:09–07:42).

Notable Quote:

“Just doing a preemption, just allowing [something], ... if we don't have people on the ground at the most local level that understand the aspects of this, it's not going to go anywhere.”
— Edward Erfurt (07:42)

3. The “Allowed by Right” Paradox & Construction Realities

• Legal permission does not equal feasibility; development economics favor projects with economies of scale (08:03–11:44).
• In Kansas City, most new ADUs result not from new builds, but from splitting lots with existing accessory units—enabling small starter homes using the existing housing stock.

“Just because they are allowed by right doesn't mean that we're suddenly going to see tons and tons of accessory dwelling units or cottage houses.”
— Abby Newsham (08:03)

4. Housing Types and Financial Products

• The prevalence of only single-family homes and "5-over-1" apartment structures is driven not by planning trends, but by standardized loan products (12:38).
• California’s mixed results with ADU preemption: only after builders and financiers adapted did ADU construction scale up (12:38–13:34).

5. What Should States Actually Do?

Erfurt suggests states have a bigger role than just rewriting zoning laws:

• Workforce Development: Invest in training builders and revitalizing the trades to deliver a diversity of housing types (13:44).
• Tackling Complexity: State mandates often tie up both large and small cities in professional fees and code rewrites, making it hard for small towns to comply (16:19–18:06).
• Provide Support: States could fund code updates or provide technical assistance to lighten the burden on municipalities (18:06).

6. The Regional Approach vs. Local Control

• The ideal scale for housing policy is regional because housing markets span across municipal boundaries—but politics makes this difficult, leading states to intervene (19:39).
• Erfurt and Newsham agree that new developments should "thicken up" traditional urban cores, not disrupt built-out, finished suburban neighborhoods (32:54–34:29).

7. The Limits of Zoning Reform & Need for Culture Shift

• Zoning reform is necessary but insufficient; the real challenge is the culture of how—and by whom—development happens (34:29–36:15).
• Supporting local small-scale developers and building "implementation capacity" is much more impactful for affordability and economic resilience than any sweeping zoning code revision.

Notable Quote:

“...Training [developers] ... that Inc Dev and Neighborhood Evolution have really dialed into—that is exponentially more powerful than just creating a mandate across the state.”
— Edward Erfurt (36:35–38:06)

8. Empowerment, Wealth-Building, and a New American Dream

• True housing reform shifts from a single-family "ownership" ideal to broader opportunities for local residents—enabling small business owners and individuals to own, rehab, and profit from real estate (38:06–40:32).
• Social accountability is higher when development is local, not when “an army of out-of-town experts” comes in (40:32–41:25).

9. Final Takeaways

State Preemption: Useful, not Sufficient

• Removing zoning barriers is just a start. Financing, construction culture, permitting, and technical know-how are just as critical.
• The best housing reform strategies combine top-down support (like code updates, builder development, and access to capital) with bottom-up empowerment of local “doers.”
• The “housing crisis” is, at its root, about systems, not just policy.

Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On the real challenge:

  “The biggest paradox...is that just because it’s created locally doesn’t mean that it becomes usable by citizens that are non-professionals.”
  — Abby Newsham (23:34)

• On process complexity:

  “We’re not doing skyscrapers or bridges over the Grand Canyon. We’re trying to figure out how to get 10 houses on a street and we’ve got this army of people to review all of these pieces.”
  — Edward Erfurt (27:38)

• On culture change:

  “It is about changing the culture of building and trying to find ways to finance this stuff...incredibly valuable because it's about implementation—actually making things happen, not just enabling them to happen.”
  — Abby Newsham (34:29–42:33)

• On what states should do:

  “If the governor really wanted to make an impact to lower housing costs...I would start with the building code.”
  — Edward Erfurt (22:19)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• State Preemption in Utah: Context – 00:18–03:34
• Why Preemption Isn’t Enough – 03:34–08:03
• Allowed vs. Feasible; Construction Realities – 08:03–13:34
• Policy Recommendations & Regionalism – 13:34–20:39
• Barriers for Small Developers – 25:54–32:54
• Building Culture, Training, and Financing – 34:29–43:21
• Summary & Closing Thoughts – 43:21–44:25

Tone & Takeaways

• Thoughtful, practical, but skeptical of “easy solutions”
• Emphasizes both technical and cultural barriers to reform
• Urges listeners to think beyond zoning—toward financing, capacity building, and empowering local actors

Concluding Insights

• Zoning reform is a crucial first step, but it must be matched with investments in people, skills, and systems that truly enable inclusive, affordable, human-scaled development.
• Empowering local people to be developers and owners, not just residents, is central to economic resilience and community character.
• Top-down reform works best when paired with bottom-up support.

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