Ep.5: The Watchers

Summary

Very Scary People: Episode 5 - The Watchers

Release Date: March 26, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 5 of Very Scary People, titled "The Watchers," host Donnie Wahlberg delves deeper into the harrowing custody battle that spiraled into a nightmare for Christine Belford and her three daughters. This episode unearths the relentless obsession of Christine’s ex-husband, David Matusiewicz, and his family, who employ extreme measures—ranging from psychological torture to stalking and even attempted murder—to regain control over the family.

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The Descent into Obsession

The episode begins by outlining the extent of the Matusiewicz family's desperation to disrupt Christine's life. Despite David and his wife Lenore being incarcerated, their determination does not wane.

• Psychologist Dr. AJ Marsden explains, “[...]this was about retribution. This was about vengeance” (01:43).

Christine's reality becomes a constant struggle as the family crafts a malicious narrative against her, labeling her as an unfit parent through a dedicated website and sending defamatory letters to her associates and community.

• Christine Belford recounts, “She said that they were, you know, following her and had people watching her” (01:48).

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Escalation of Harassment

As the harassment intensifies, Detective Jeff Schreiner sheds light on Christine's interactions with law enforcement and the increasing paranoia she faces.

• Detective Jeff Schreiner shares, “When she reached out to me, she started telling me about the weird things going on around her house...” (06:01).

Despite efforts to strip David of his parental rights, the Matusiewicz family continues to devise ways to unsettle Christine, using both direct and indirect methods to infiltrate her life.

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Infiltration Through Deception

One of the most chilling tactics employed by the Matusiewicz family involves manipulating a real estate agent to surveil Christine's residence.

• Reporter Chris Barish reveals, “The Matusewicz family is able to convince Betty Lou to risk her job and violate the terms of her real estate license...” (10:27).

This breach of trust exemplifies the lengths to which the family will go, violating ethical boundaries to gather intelligence and maintain pressure on Christine.

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Emotional and Psychological Toll

The constant harassment takes a severe emotional toll on Christine, leading her to confide in her therapist about her deteriorating mental state.

• Christine's Therapist observes, “They harass me from where they can. I feel like I'm always dodging a bullet. I'm tired. I'm tired.” (14:13).

Christine grapples with feelings of isolation and urgency to protect her children at all costs, often feeling trapped and overwhelmed by the ceaseless threats.

• Christine Belford admits, “I can't [give up the fight].” (14:34).

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Community and Support Systems

Amidst the turmoil, Christine leans on a few trusted individuals for support. Her stepmother, Eileen McDermott, and a friend named Beth Mulford provide essential emotional and practical assistance.

• Eileen McDermott reflects, “Christine had no idea when it was coming. Every day she looked over her shoulder...” (08:41).

However, the breach of trust by Cindy Bender, a friend who was covertly feeding information to the Matusiewicz family, further exacerbates Christine's vulnerability.

• Reporter Chris Barish explains, “Cindy had befriended Christine online and expressed sympathy...” (17:20).

The revelation of Cindy’s betrayal leaves Christine feeling more exposed and helpless, compounding her anxiety.

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Heightened Security Measures

In response to the escalating threats, Christine takes drastic steps to secure her home and ensure her daughters' safety.

• Katie Belford details, “We actually got cameras on the outside of her house. ...we also got three dogs, German shepherds.” (24:15).

These measures represent a shift from defensive to proactive protection, highlighting the severity of the threat they face.

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The Breaking Point

The episode reaches a climax when the Matusiewicz family makes a direct move against Christine's family, fulfilling her worst fears.

• Katie Belford recounts, “I knew we had to get the girls, make sure they were safe.” (29:07).

David’s attempt to intrude upon Christine’s home emphasizes the desperate and dangerous lengths he is willing to go, posing an immediate threat to the family’s safety.

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Aftermath and Ongoing Battle

Following the failed intrusion, the episode touches on the continued legal battles and the impending release of family members from incarceration, setting the stage for future confrontations.

• Christine Belford expresses her enduring fear, “They're never gonna stop.” (22:14).

The relentless pursuit by the Matusiewicz family underscores the ongoing nature of Christine’s struggle to protect her children and reclaim her life.

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Conclusion

Episode 5, "The Watchers," poignantly captures the relentless harassment faced by Christine Belford and her children. Through expert insights and personal testimonies, the episode sheds light on the psychological warfare waged by the Matusiewicz family, illustrating a battle that extends beyond legal confines into the very fabric of Christine’s daily existence.

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Notable Quotes

• Dr. AJ Marsden: “This was about retribution. This was about vengeance.” (01:43)
• Christine Belford: “I can't [give up the fight].” (14:34)
• Katie Belford: “We actually got cameras on the outside of her house. ...we also got three dogs, German shepherds.” (24:15)
• Christine Belford: “They're never gonna stop.” (22:14)

---

This summary encapsulates the main themes and events of Episode 5: The Watchers, providing an in-depth overview for those who have not listened to the episode.

Transcript

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[Narrator]

This is a story that involves stalking, psychological torture, alleged sexual abuse, kidnapping and murder. Listener discretion is advised.

[Psychologist Dr. AJ Marsden]

This was about retribution. This was about vengeance.

[Christine Belford]

She said that they were following her and had people watching her.

[Katie Belford]

I don't know how you can have so many people manipulated into doing those things.

[Christine's Therapist]

He'll never leave me alone. He will never stop.

[Katie Belford]

I said that's them. They're here.

[Narrator]

David, Lenor and the rest of the Matusewicz family have gone to disturbing extremes to destroy Christine Belford's life and shatter her credibility as a mother. They've constructed an entire website dedicated to dragging her name through the mud, branding her as an unfit parent and a child abuser. They've sent letters to Christine's family, friends, colleagues, even her church, relentlessly attempting to destroy every facet of her life, all while David and Lenore remain behind bars. But despite their efforts, David's paternal rights have been stripped and the girls remain in Christine's custody. However, David and Lenore's Time in prison hasn't slowed them. Instead, they continue to bide their time, looking for any levers they can pull to unnerve Christine and threaten everything she holds dear. Psychologist Dr. AJ Marsden discusses just how far David would go in his relentless campaign to completely destroy Christine's life.

[Katie Belford]

With every tactic that David tried, the website, when that didn't get the reaction he wanted, whenever he tried something and was met with either resistance or was met with failure, he was going to escalate it to the next level.

[Narrator]

Prosecutor Ed McAndrew has dealt with numerous cases involving spousal disputes, but none quite like what he saw with David and the Matusewicz family.

[Psychologist Dr. AJ Marsden]

David was a prolific communicator when he was in jail. Of course, he hand wrote notes, letters to lots of people, including to Amy and his mother and his father. And one of those early notes is critical because it's the note where David says, let's get the website up, let's run with the story. He wanted it up then so it would hurt her, it would inflict the most emotional harm. And this idea of harassing Christine online, through the mail, through everybody she knew, was first designed to get her to give up, to remove herself from the situation, maybe by suicide, or maybe just to give them custody of the children. When that didn't work, they escalated. This was about retribution. This was about vengeance. This was about annihilating Christine Belfort for what she did in their minds, not just to David, but to their entire family. That's what this was about. The children were possessions. The children were pawns. The children were a way to inflict injury and pain on Christine.

[Narrator]

Christine used her lawyers and the state government to strip David of his parental rights. And for the Matusewicz family, there is no greater offense.

[Detective Jeff Schreiner]

After David and Lenore were sentenced, I just felt that the case was never going to go away.

[Narrator]

Detective Jeff Schreiner of the New Castle County Police Department investigated David and Lenore's abduction of the Matusewicz girls.

[Detective Jeff Schreiner]

Christine would reach out to me every so often and at that point she started telling me about the weird things going on around her house. She said there were strange people driving past her house. And again, I understand other police officers, especially she is a victim.

[Narrator]

They do.

[Detective Jeff Schreiner]

Get a little bit paranoid and I understand that. But then she had made mention about a private investigator showing up, just all kinds of things.

[Narrator]

Christine's sister in law, Jenny, was doing everything she could to support her during this time, knowing full well what the Matusewicz's were capable of.

[Christine Belford]

When she said that they were, you know, following her and had people watching her. We. We thought it was weird that, that anybody would be following Christine. Why would anybody care what she was doing? And so it didn't sound reasonable. It sounded like things were just escalating. Christine would take Katie to the mall or take her out to eat, and she would bring her right back and say, someone's following us. And I don't want Katie with me because I'm concerned. I saw the same guy at the mall as I did here, and I brought her back. And that happened two or three times. And at that point I thought, something's going on. I'm not really sure who's coming off the rails. To be 100% honest, I didn't know whether Christine was kind of seeing things that weren't there. Was she developing a paranoia? What was happening? I didn't know.

[Detective Jeff Schreiner]

I didn't know how to take it. But on the other hand too, at that point, when she's calling me and Lenore and David are in prison, I was no longer a detective. I got moved to a different assignment. So I told her the best I could. I said, I'm not in that position anymore. You know, if you feel that something odd is happening or fearful somebody's following you or stalking you or whatever, said call 911, get it documented. You know, that's at that time, that's all I could do for her.

[Narrator]

Christine is starting to feel her world closing in around her. She feels like the Matusewiczes are waiting for her behind every corner. It is a constant and draining anxiety. Christine's stepmother, Eileen McDermott, remembers that time all too well.

[Christine's Stepmother Eileen McDermott]

Christine had no idea when it was coming. Every day she looked over her shoulder. Every day was a struggle to get out of bed and to continue to strive for her children. She didn't know what was going to happen.

[Narrator]

Christine can step away from her church, she can shop at a new grocery store. But the one place she can't avoid, the place where she should feel safest, has become the space she feels most vulnerable. Her own home. Her daughter Katie recalls the first signs the Matusewicz family had tracked down their new address after the arrest.

[Katie Belford]

We would actually get cards in the mail from Amy for all holidays and the girls birthdays. My mom wasn't in contact with anybody from the Matusewicz family, but we started getting cards mailed to our address, which was scary because it meant they knew where we were.

[Narrator]

Christine is beginning to crack under the pressure and considers it may be time to sell the house. And relocate to a place where the Matusewiczes cannot find them.

[Katie Belford]

My mom put her house for sale because she kept getting letters and she just felt it was safer if we just left. We never talked about where we were going to go, just that we needed to get out of there.

[Narrator]

And Christine is right to be worried, because little does she know, she's not the only one who's been keeping tabs on her potential move. Delaware State Police Sgt. Millard Greer explains one of the first ways the Matusewiczes used a person outside the family structure to carry out their bidding.

[Reporter Chris Barish]

We learned that Betty Lou Griffith was a real estate agent in Middletown, Delaware. Betty Lou Griffith originally had sold Tom and Lenore a house in Smyrna, Delaware. Then later, while Lenore was incarcerated and David was incarcerated, Tom was able to get Betty Lou to drive by Christine's house, take pictures of cars that were in the driveway, being specific to get the tag numbers.

[Narrator]

The Matusewicz family is able to convince Betty Lou to risk her job and violate the terms of her real estate license by downloading interior photos of Christine's home from a private database used exclusively by real estate professionals to share information about properties. And while it is considered highly unethical and a fireable offense to share that information with outsiders, Betty Lou risks her livelihood to send photos from the database along with the one she personally took from outside Christine's home back to Tom and Lenore.

[Katie Belford]

I don't know how you can have so many people manipulated into doing those things. Like the real estate agent. How did you enlist her and get her on your side to send you pictures of the inside of our home?

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[Christine Belford]

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[Narrator]

In recordings with her therapist from around this time, Christine opens up about the stresses of her day to day reality. It's abundantly clear she is at her breaking point.

[Christine's Therapist]

They harass me from where they can. I feel like it's like I'm always dodging a bullet. I'm tired. I'm tired.

[Christine Belford]

For execute.

[Christine's Therapist]

For the children and for myself. For the children is my main purpose. Because if I wasn't here, what would happen to them? But there's been times where I'm like, should I just give up the fight? And I'm like, I can't.

[Christine Belford]

I can't.

[Christine's Therapist]

I've come too far.

[Christine Belford]

So let's talk about that for a second.

[Narrator]

Yeah.

[Christine's Therapist]

Because it scared me. Happens when you go to your.

[Christine's Stepmother Eileen McDermott]

Walk me through your.

[Narrator]

Your darkest moment when you are at that point and you're saying I can't do this anymore.

[Christine Belford]

How close are you to possibly committing suicide?

[Christine's Therapist]

No, I'm not. I'm not close at all. I'm sitting on. Because the next thing I know I.

[Christine's Stepmother Eileen McDermott]

Grab my rosary, right?

[Christine Belford]

So you start doing this, right?

[Christine's Therapist]

You know what I mean? And I start praying because I Don't know what else to do because my faith has taught me, pray, pray, pray your way out of these situations. And it would be selfish of me to do that because then they would be uprooted again, and who knows where the hell they would go? They need me, you know, and sometimes that overwhelms me, the need that I feel because I don't have a big family and a big. I don't have a lot of resources, as far as I want to say, like support. Yeah, that, that. But they. I've got to stay on track. So I just keep fighting and put one foot in front of the other.

[Christine's Stepmother Eileen McDermott]

I honestly think if it wasn't for our children, she'd be done. If it wasn't for, you know, putting on a brave face for Katie. I mean, I know that Katie's seen a lot, and I know that she talked a lot to Katie and confided in Katie, but there's a sense of, you are my child and I am your protector. And she kept her at arm's length as well.

[Narrator]

In addition to therapy, Christine needs to depend on the support of her friends and family now more than ever.

[Christine's Stepmother Eileen McDermott]

I think at this point in Christine's life is she kept people where they needed to be. She didn't have the energy to go mingle. She didn't have the energy to go, hey, here, let's go hang out here, and let's do that. There was none of that.

[Narrator]

But luckily, Christine has one friend on whom she can rely on. Beth Mulford.

[Katie Belford]

Beth Mulford. She was a neighbor to us, and she was the mom to one of my sister's best friends. She was sweet. She actually would come to the house and help me with the laundry and take me to school and help me get my sisters off.

[Narrator]

And help comes in many forms. Cindy Bender's friendship came in the form of moral and emotional support. She reached out to Christine online. After the kidnapping, Cindy would constantly check in with Christine about her struggles, the girls, and whatever was going on in her life. She was the listening ear, virtual shoulder to cry on. Or was she?

[Reporter Chris Barish]

Cindy had befriended Christine online and expressed sympathy for her and explained that she had grown up in the same town with the Matusewicz's and it was really horrible what had happened. And as time went on, they maintained contact. I think Cindy even sent, at some point, sent some Christmas presents to the kids once they were returned.

[Katie Belford]

My mom seemed to trust her and she thought she was just being friendly.

[Narrator]

But behind the caring exterior, Cindy Bender isn't who she says she is. Unbeknownst to Christine, Cindy's a mole planted in her life for a far more sinister purpose.

[Reporter Chris Barish]

What Christine didn't realize is that David had email access while he was in federal prison and had been communicating with Cindy Bender. David Matusiewicz was a high school sweetheart of hers. They had lost contact, but as she had problems in her marriage, they had reconnected. Years later, she communicated with him when he was incarcerated, and he had convinced her to send him some nude photographs of herself.

[Psychologist Dr. AJ Marsden]

And she would feed David information, including information she was getting from Christine's private Facebook account, pictures of the girls, things they were doing, what was going on in Christine's personal life, all in an effort to feed David stuff that he could use in their stalking campaign.

[Narrator]

David wasn't the only Matusewicz that Cindy reported to. She would also send updates to David's sister Amy. Cindy Bender would send me pictures of my nieces. She would send me updates of my nieces. She would send me an update, like how Christine was doing if she had a new boyfriend or whatever. I basically sent that information, shared it with my family. Pictures of my nieces. Who would want to see pictures of their grandchildren and their kids. No, I don't believe that was doing anything wrong. But I never asked Cindy Bender for any of this. He just offered this to me, gave it to me, and that was it. And I sent it to my mother and my father and my brother.

[Reporter Chris Barish]

As time went by, David demanded more and more, and Cindy became resistant. She had patched things up with her husband. At this point, David threatened to tell her husband and show him the pictures that he had received. At which point, Cindy Bender decided she had to come clean. She told her husband what was going on, and she told Christine. Christine immediately ceased all communication with Cindy.

[Christine Belford]

I am baffled by this whole family's decisions. I cannot wrap my head around the fact that of four people, not one of them said to the other three, do you think this is a little much? In a group of people, not one of them said, you know, I think we're going a little too far. Leave the woman alone. I mean, I do think that if they had stopped and been reasonable, Christine would have tried to meet them halfway. I can only talk from my experience. I'm the ex sister in law. She divorced my brother, and Katie and I are. Katie's like my daughter. And Christine never stopped me from seeing her. And so she never tried to alienate us from Katie. And I think had they just played nice and sandbox, Christine would have happily let them be A full, thriving part of those children's lives. But they didn't want to. And then they double down after all of that. Then they double down and they start a harassment campaign. And that's why Christine thought, they're never gonna stop. If they haven't learned their. If going to jail didn't teach them anything. They're never gonna stop. They're never gonna stop until they get these girls.

[Narrator]

Shaken by this extreme breach of trust, Christine confides in her therapist about how deeply the incident with Cindy has affected her.

[Christine Belford]

So you're not sleeping now?

[Christine's Therapist]

No. Last night was up till 2.

[Narrator]

How long has this been going on?

[Christine's Therapist]

Just the last few nights. It, like, switched. Since, I think since Cindy, I've been having a hard time falling asleep, staying asleep, getting the sleep that I need because I'm like, I'm worried about the kids at the bus stop. I'm worried I'm not telling the kids. I'm worried about these things because I don't want to set them off. I had a small conversation with them. I just said, you know, David, we talk. We call him David. I said, david has contacted our Cindy from West Virginia, and he wanted to know some stuff about us. So he's interested in us. So we need to be extra careful. So it's, you know, the sleep. Because he'll never leave me alone. He'll never leave me alone. That's all I can think. He will never stop.

[Narrator]

But even with the unending harassment and abuse that she's enduring from the Matusewicz family, Christine is determined to fight to do anything she can to protect her daughters.

[Christine Belford]

Christine was very hyper vigilant. I would say. She would always want to know where her kids were. Like, if they went outside to play, they had to have an adult with them all the time.

[Narrator]

And since Katie was nearly eight years older than the eldest Matusewicz girls, her role in the household evolved, too.

[Christine Belford]

She was very diligent with Katie, too, because Katie is now older and she had this responsibility to the little ones.

[Katie Belford]

So my mom had always said if the two switzes were to ever come to the house while we were there, that the girls, since our bedrooms were upstairs, she would try and hold them off downstairs as long as possible. And I was supposed to help the girls get out of the second story window upstairs and go next door to our neighbor's house. He was a state trooper.

[Narrator]

Christine and her daughter's reality is one where they need to have an escape plan from their own home. As the Matusewicz family turns up, the heat with new depraved ways of infiltrating Christine's life, she decides to take matters into her own hands.

[Detective Jeff Schreiner]

She asked me should she buy a gun? And I gave her the same thing. I'll tell anybody about buying a gun. You know, you better know how to use it. I said, you better be comfortable with this thing. Because again, any situation, if you have a gun, there's a gun there and people can get hurt, including her.

[Katie Belford]

So we actually got cameras on the outside of her house. There was three of them. And the monitor was in her bedroom and it just ran. And you could watch them all the time. We also got three dogs, German shepherds.

[Christine's Stepmother Eileen McDermott]

I can't imagine the thoughts that went through her head, the struggle that she went through every day.

[Katie Belford]

So at the age of 15, my mom took a job that was at nights. So I would get my sisters off the bus, I would make dinner.

[Christine Belford]

We'D do baths.

[Katie Belford]

Homework. And then when they went to bed at night, I would sleep in my mom's room so I could watch the cameras at night and make sure nobody was coming to the house. I am always alert and I'm always watching everything, so. And it's draining to always be on and ready for anything.

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[Narrator]

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[Narrator]

Christine's done all she can to ensure her family's safety. However, one day while Christine is at work, her worst fear arrives on her doorstep.

[Christine Belford]

Christine. She was dating a new guy at the time. He had picked Katie up from school and when they pulled into the development, Katie immediately noticed this Honda Civic that was sitting near the entrance to the development.

[Katie Belford]

The same car that time had when they had lived in Middletown with us when I was younger. I said that's them, they're here.

[Narrator]

Katie and Christine's new boyfriend have a terrifying realization. The girls are in immediate danger.

[Katie Belford]

I knew we had to get the girls, make sure they were safe.

[Christine Belford]

So the oldest child and the little one went to the same school and the middle child went to a different school. The boyfriend, he went to the school to get the oldest child and the little child while Katie waited for the middle one to get off the bus because they were afraid that if no one was there that she might get snatched. And so, so Katie then brought the middle child in. Boyfriend comes home with the other two children.

[Katie Belford]

And here they came, Tom knocking on the door saying he was just dropping off some blankets that were knitted for my sisters. I didn't tell my sisters they were there. We just hurried them into my mom's room and locked the door and he.

[Christine Belford]

Was there with the private investigator. The boyfriend said, get to gettin and Tom said, you know I had this delivery, these heirlooms. But he told him they didn't want anything, he had to get gone.

[Narrator]

Fortunately, Tom heeds Christine's boyfriend's warning and lease her property. But what would have happened if Christine was there? Or worse, if Katie had been there with the girls alone? Why would Tom or anyone travel 2,000 miles from Texas just to hand deliver a gift? Reporter Chris Barish explains to Christine, an incident like this could have been even more damaging than anything else she had previously endured.

[Reporter Chris Barish]

Christine was afraid they might try to.

[Narrator]

Do something drastic and crazy. And here they are showing up at their door.

[Reporter Chris Barish]

They know they're not welcome. Talk about a chilling effect.

[Christine Belford]

And the private investigator and Tom went. Because there was no order against Tom at the time. There was shortly thereafter.

[Narrator]

And just when Christine thought things couldn't get any worse. Lenore's sentence is completed and she's released from prison on September 16, 2010. And while Tom and Amy have already relocated to Texas, upon her release, Lenore joins them there 19 months later, on April 13, 2012, David completes his prison sentence. He is released to a federal halfway house.

[Christine Belford]

I was concerned about David getting released from jail. I was concerned for the girls. I especially because we knew that Tom had come up to Delaware and I felt like, David, what's he gonna do, right? I didn't know what to expect.

[Katie Belford]

I thought they would not stop until they had my sisters. I knew my mom was scared of them. She didn't have to say it. He just knew.

[Reporter Chris Barish]

So It's November of 2000, 2012. David's been out for about six months. He sends Amy a message that says, prepare yourself to be raising four kids in about, you know, by this time next year.

[Narrator]

Next time on Very Scary People.

[Psychologist Dr. AJ Marsden]

I've never encountered a group like the Matusa Witches. They are in a category of their own when it comes to their criminal minds.

[Reporter Chris Barish]

I would classify the Mituziewiczes as having an anti government approach to life.

[Psychologist Dr. AJ Marsden]

Those beliefs were being fueled by extremist groups like the sovereign citizens movement.

[Reporter Chris Barish]

There's ammunition everywhere you can look at.

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That moment, the Machusiewiczes take matters into their own hands.

[Narrator]

Very Scary People is produced by Lionsgate Alternative Television for id. I'm Donnie Wahlberg. You can follow our show wherever you get your podcasts. And we'd love it if you could take a second to leave us a five star review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Hi, it's Eugenio Derbez. Did you know that with Boost Mobile you can cut your phone bill in half this tax season? Yes, half. Buy six months of service and get six months free. That's a full year of service paying half. That sounds good, doesn't it? And all on the boost network with 99% nationwide coverage. Don't wait. Visit your Boost store today. Requires upfront payment, taxes and fees. Extra terms and exclusions apply. Visit boostmobile.com for full terms. Oh my God. It's the coolest thing ever. Hey guys, have you heard of Goldbelly? Well, check this out. It's this amazing site where they ship the most iconic famous foods from restaurants across the country anywhere nationwide. I've never found a more perfect gift than food. They ship Chicago deep dish pizza, New York bagels, Maine lobster rolls, and even Ina Garten's famous cakes. Seriously. So if you're looking for a gift for the food lover in your Life, head to goldbelly.com and get 20% off your first order with promo code Gift this episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.

[Psychologist Dr. AJ Marsden]

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[Christine Belford]

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[Narrator]

They said over and over and over again and we just ignored it. What if a warning siren sounds from Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This is Escalation, a podcast about the United States and Ukraine.

[Christine Belford]

We were all living in a bureaucratic process and Putin's living in the world of hard power.

[Ryan Reynolds]

And the word escalation. Everyone just says it.

[Narrator]

This latest escalation paralyzed because of nuclear escalation. And you know what is interesting about the war? When you don't want to understand the war from the distance, it come closer and closer. Escalation is out now. Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Christine Belford]

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