Ep.6: Off The Grid

Summary

Very Scary People – Episode 6: Off The Grid

Introduction

In Episode 6, titled "Off The Grid," of the gripping podcast Very Scary People, host Donnie Wahlberg delves deeper into the harrowing custody battle that has spiraled into a deadly obsession. This episode explores the dark corridors of the Matusewicz family's psyche, their anti-government sentiments, and the extreme measures they are willing to undertake to regain control over Christine Belford’s three daughters. Through exclusive interviews and detailed analysis, Wahlberg unravels how the family's fixation transforms into a mother's worst nightmare.

Background of the Matusewicz Family

The episode begins by setting the stage on September 5, 2012—the day Christine Belford's fears materialize as David Matusiewicz is released from federal custody. David, once a successful optometrist, had been incarcerated for orchestrating a sinister campaign against Christine, including stalking, harassment, and even kidnapping the daughters. The release marks a significant escalation in the family's attempts to dismantle Christine's life.

David's Release and Immediate Actions

Upon his release, David is depicted as a man consumed by a singular goal: regaining custody of his daughters. Narrator describes David’s release as a moment infused with dread for Christine, highlighting the immediate threat he poses. At [04:20], an expert comments, “The audacity that after kidnapping these children, after going to prison... there was nothing that could keep them away.” This underscores the relentless nature of David and his mother Lenore’s obsession.

Family Dynamics at the Ranch

David reunites with his parents, Lenore and Tom Matusiewicz, at their dilapidated ranch in Texas. The setting is portrayed as a "disheveled hellscape," reflecting the chaos and instability within the family. Amy Matusiewicz, David’s sister, provides insight into the environment, expressing her fears: “[03:38]... it's even worse now. You're coming to my home, now you're stalking me... trying to destroy this person with evil.” The family’s ranch is cluttered with old cars, mangy guard dogs, and an overstocked armory, symbolizing their readiness for confrontation.

Increasing Obsession and Control

The Matusewicz family’s home is depicted as a fortress of obsession. At [07:21], an expert describes, “There's ammunition everywhere you can look... thousands upon thousands of rounds of ammunition.” This hoarding behavior signifies their preparation for any eventuality, reinforcing their extreme commitment to their cause. The family's internal dynamics reveal a deep-seated grievance against Christine and the government, fostering an environment where delusions can thrive unchecked.

Ideological Influences: Sovereign Citizens Movement

A significant portion of the episode focuses on the Matusewicz family's alignment with the Sovereign Citizens Movement—a group that rejects governmental authority. Ed McAndrew, a former Department of Justice prosecutor, explains at [22:08], “The Sovereign Citizens Movement is... a loose sort of collection of people who are opposed to the government... they believe they are sovereign in their own right and therefore do not have to follow the rules.” This ideology fuels the family's belief that they are justified in their actions against perceived governmental overreach.

Legal and Psychological Aspects

Christine’s struggle extends into the legal realm, particularly concerning child support. Despite losing parental rights, David remains financially responsible, accruing significant back payments. At [10:27], Timothy Hitchings, Christine’s attorney, notes, “He owes tens of thousands of dollars… So David gets a hearing scheduled to try to reduce his child support payments.” However, David’s refusal to engage constructively in mediation, viewing it as a zero-sum game, leads him to manipulate the system to justify his return to Delaware.

Psychologist Dr. AJ Marsden provides a psychological perspective on the family’s behavior, linking their anti-government stance to Tom’s long history of government employment and subsequent disenfranchisement. This culminates in a family united by shared grievances and a warped sense of justice, driving them further into extremist actions.

Consequences and Escalation

As the episode progresses, the Matusewicz family's actions become more radicalized. Their disconnection from reality and mutual reinforcement of delusions make them increasingly dangerous. At [34:05], an expert reflects, “They feed into each other's delusions... that's what makes them so scary.” The family's ultimate objective—complete control over Christine's daughters—pushes them towards impending confrontation with authorities, setting the stage for potential tragedy.

Conclusion

Episode 6, "Off The Grid," masterfully captures the intricate web of obsession, ideological extremism, and familial bonds that fuel the Matusewicz family's descent into darkness. Through detailed narrative and expert insights, Donnie Wahlberg paints a chilling portrait of how a custody battle can morph into a life-threatening obsession. The episode leaves listeners with a profound understanding of the psychological and societal factors that contribute to such terrifying human behavior, setting the stage for the impending conflict that looms in future episodes.

Notable Quotes

• Jenny Puglisi at [03:14]: “I felt like when David got out of prison, that would be scary because what's he going to do? I was worried that he would menace them.”

• Eileen McDermott at [04:07]: “You're trying to destroy this person with evil.”

• Claire (Expert) at [07:21]: “There's ammunition everywhere you can look... revolvers, semiautomatic rifles, shotguns, ammunition for all of it.”

• Ed McAndrew at [12:12]: “I have never encountered a group like the Matusewicz. They are in a category of their own when it comes to their criminal minds.”

• Tom Matusiewicz at [28:38]: “David being hurt by Christine was just something that was intolerable.”

• Dr. AJ Marsden at [16:16]: “Tom, from an early age had government jobs... he became a little bit more disenfranchised.”

Final Thoughts

Episode 6 of Very Scary People serves as a crucial exploration of how extremist ideologies and personal grievances can drive a family to the brink of madness and violence. By intertwining firsthand accounts, expert analysis, and chilling narrative, the episode offers listeners a comprehensive understanding of the factors that make the Matusewicz family profoundly dangerous. As the story unfolds, it becomes evident that the family's unwavering pursuit of control is both terrifying and tragically human.

Transcript

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[Narrator]

This is a story that involves stalking, psychological torture, alleged sexual abuse, kidnapping and murder. Listener discretion is advised.

[Expert/Commentator]

With all of them together in Texas, the plot thickens.

They're an insular little group. They took an imaginary crime and they let it fester and mushroom in their own minds.

They feed into each other's delusions. They can create a situation where they have ultimate control.

This is an anti government group. It does not recognize the authority of the government.

It was like they were Preparing for Armageddon.

[Narrator]

September 5, 2012 is the day Christine Belford had been dreading every minute since the girls were rescued. The day she prayed would never come. David Matusiewicz has just been released from federal custody. For the past three years, he was able to dismantle Christine's entire life from behind bars. He and his mother, Lenore, have been at the helm of the stalking, the harassment, and the incredibly damaging smear campaign that tried to paint Christine as an unfit mother, a threat to her own children, and now he is back on the street. Christine's sister in law, Jenny Puglisi, shares her feelings on the prospect of David returning from jail and what it could mean for Christine and the girls.

[Expert/Commentator]

We knew that Tom had come up to Delaware and They live in Texas. I felt like when David got out of prison, that would be scary because what's he going to do? I was worried that he would menace them. You know, just show up at their soccer games or show up at their schools or, you know, and just be a threat to them.

[Narrator]

Christine's stepmother, Eileen McDermott, is also worried about David's release, especially considering the path of destruction they've paved up to this point.

[Expert/Commentator]

I think the anxiety was a little bit higher when Dave was out versus Lenore, because unfortunately, fortunately, here we go again. I mean, it's even worse now. You know, now you're coming to my home, now you're stalking me. You're interfering with our neighbors lives, teachers, churches, anywhere you can possibly think of. You're trying to destroy this person with evil.

[Narrator]

Upon release from federal custody, David is a man on a mission. His singular goal is to get his daughter by any means necessary. The very second that David breathes fresh air as a free man, once again, he only has one place on his mind. Delaware. Delaware State Police Sgt. Millard Greer recalls his shock at the Matusewicz family's unwavering dedication to their sole objective.

[Expert/Commentator]

The audacity that after kidnapping these children, after going to prison, after having parental rights terminated, there was nothing that could keep them away. There was no court order, no piece of paper that was going to keep them from continuing on their mission.

[Narrator]

Ed McAndrew has prosecuted hundreds of cases at the US Department of Justice and explains David's movements upon his initial release.

[Expert/Commentator]

After David's release from prison, the day he is released, he has to report to the US Probation office. And the first thing he asks for his permission to travel from Texas, where he was released, to New Jersey, which happens to be right next to Delaware. He wanted to get back here immediately. The probation office had a policy that nobody who was released can leave the state of jurisdiction for at least 60 days. So David was denied and he remained in Texas.

[Narrator]

David is furious that the government is once again getting in his way, but he knows he needs to stay calm. On the surface, he will get back to Delaware, but he needs a plan. Reporter Chris Barish is constantly keeping tabs on this case and explained that once David learned he was not allowed to return to Delaware, there was only one place he could go where he would be welcomed with open arms.

[Expert/Commentator]

David goes and joins his parents at their little ranch house in Texas. Texas, where Amy's living nearby.

[Narrator]

Amy Matusiewicz vividly remembers the day she picked David up after his release. She recalls the excitement of his homecoming.

[Expert/Commentator]

I was actually the one to go pick him up with my mom and my dad. We picked him up from prison in Texas and drove home. It was amazing because my brother was finally home. But unfortunately, no, his children weren't with him.

[Narrator]

The main four of the Matusewicz family have been reunited at the disheveled hellscape they call the ranch. The broken down trailer, old cars in the yard, mangy guard dogs, and the overstocked armory. Greet David at the family headquarters.

[Expert/Commentator]

There's ammunition everywhere you can look. There was a large ammo loading station in a shed. Thomas Matusiewicz was making his own ammunition, loading his own bullets. And there were thousands upon thousands of rounds of ammunition. Every type of handgun you can imagine. Revolvers, semiautomatic rifles, shotguns, ammunition for all of it.

[Narrator]

In an online interview with Crusade Radio, Lenore describes Tom's gun collection as an innocent hobby. She explains that Tom crafts his own ammunition as a simple stress reliever. However, Lenore also reveals another motivation for making bullets. Tom wants to be absolutely sure that if he needs to pull the trigger, his bullets won't fail him. I don't know where all the guns came from, but Tom collected them. He liked to collect guns and he made bullets. The reason he made bullets, he said.

[Expert/Commentator]

It made him calm.

[Narrator]

It calmed him down. He said, you don't want bullets in your gun that are over a year old.

[Expert/Commentator]

They might misfire. And if you need a gun to shoot that bullet, that bullet better go off.

[Narrator]

Tom's obsession with hoarding guns and stockpiling munitions seems to take precedence over the general upkeep of the ranch.

[Expert/Commentator]

The place was in complete disarray. It was very unkept. Lots of boxes and clutter everywhere. There were trenches around the property with flags that I would describe as windage, flags for shooting, which is common with the military. It was like they were preparing for Armageddon.

[Narrator]

They were prepared for anything, but just needed an excuse to get back to Delaware. Amy explains that there was one continued goal David had during this time.

[Expert/Commentator]

He was still fighting for his children, to get custody back of his children. Taking custody from him. You know, that was his frame of mind. He was going to try to go back to become a father again. That killed him, to not be able to see his girls again. Now, that's what he lived for. That's all he wanted.

And now that they're desperate, now that they're. They're dangerous and desperate, they did everything they could. This was a plot. They planned this.

[Narrator]

The Matusewicz family have nothing to lose. David's entire identity has shifted. He is no longer the successful optometrist beloved by his community. He is now a jobless convicted felon who has lost any parental rights to his own children. But that didn't mean that David wasn't still financially responsible for their care. Christine's attorney, Timothy Hitchings, explains that there was still a matter of back pay on child support to settle between him and Christine.

[Expert/Commentator]

But there was a lot of money that David owed to Christine for child support. For the time he was in prison.

He owes tens of thousands of dollars. He's not making money, doesn't have his license anymore. So David gets a hearing scheduled to try to reduce his child support payments.

He wasn't earning enough money to pay her what he owed her. So in the fall of 2012, there was going to be a mediation in family court to deal with the issue of child support. It's not a trial, it's not a hearing. It's where the family court staff mediator meets with the parents and tries to work things out.

[Narrator]

Christine is only hoping to receive the back pay on the child support payments David owed her from before his rights were terminated. She'd prefer to sever all ties. But now a single mother of four with thousands of dollars on the line, Christine feels she needs to come to the table for a mediation. David Matusiewicz is not one for mediation. He sees every interaction as a zero sum game. You either win or you lose. And losing is not an option.

[Expert/Commentator]

David participates in by phone where the mediator says, just tell us what you can pay per week and we can, you know, make arrangements. When he says zero, he understands that if he doesn't agree to something, they'll have to be a hearing before a judge. And that becomes his excuse, his justification to the probation office for being given permission to go to Delaware.

I am over 10 years in the.

U.S. department of Justice. I prosecuted well over 500 cases. I have encountered all kinds of criminal defendants, including child sex offenders, terrorists, hackers, fraudsters, thieves. But I've never encountered a group like the Matusewicz. They are in a category of their own when it comes to their criminal minds. What he did not tell the probation office was that he could have participated in that hearing remotely, by phone. He chose not to. He wanted to have a reason to come to Delaware. Better yet, now he had a reason to make Christine come to a particular place as well.

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[Narrator]

The Matusewicz family saw this as far more than just a simple child support meeting to work things out. In their eyes, the mere notion that David needs to pay Christine anything was just another attack from the government on their family.

[Expert/Commentator]

Part of understanding the conduct that the Matusewicz is engaged in here is understanding their views of the government and how they evolved over time.

[Narrator]

After all, it was the government that chased David down in Nicaragua, that threw him and his mother in prison, that took his children away and was now coming for his money.

[Expert/Commentator]

I would classify the Metusewiczes as having an anti government psychiatric approach to Life. I find that ironic because at one point Tom was a police officer in New Jersey. Tom was retired from the postal service.

[Narrator]

Psychologist Dr. AJ Marsden believes the seeds of these anti government ideologies began with Tom's long history of working government jobs.

[Expert/Commentator]

Tom, from an early age had government jobs. With each government position, he became a little bit more disenfranchised.

[Narrator]

Bob Romano worked with Tom during their time at the Vineland Police Department in New Jersey, recalls Tom's strange anger towards the government.

[Expert/Commentator]

Tom thought that they were basically picking on him, that he had to do those jobs in order to survive. And they didn't want him to survive. He was really ticked off about that, that he thought that they were basically harassing him. And the Matusewiches, as they went through the family court proceedings, became very aggrieved. They believed that the court system had wronged them, had treated them unfairly. It was rigged against them.

[Narrator]

At this point, the Matusewicz family can't fathom a world where they are not given full control of the three girls. The government is once again trying to impose its will upon the family. And the last time David and Lenore felt like they had no other options, they kidnapped the girls to Central America. It was the government that was forcing their hand.

[Expert/Commentator]

The Matusewiczes take matters into their own hands because they feel threatened by the outside world. They feel threatened by the government, they feel threatened by others.

[Narrator]

Up to this point, the Matusewicz family have leveraged every relative, friend and neighbor they have to help them in their campaign of terror. But now their efforts have caught the eye of a much larger movement, one that shares their radical views and most importantly, a common enemy.

[Expert/Commentator]

Those beliefs were being fueled by some of the groups they were getting involved in. Extremist groups like the Sovereign Citizens Movement. This is an anti government group. It does not recognize the authority of the government to govern its citizens. They answer to God and to God only. And that is part of what fuels their view and their grievance that they're not required to submit to and conform to laws passed by governments because they don't answer to governments.

So there are three reasons why people join cults. The first reason is they're born into it, so they just can't help it. Some people think that there's something wrong with the world, so they're looking for answers and the cult provides answers. And then there's the third type of person who thinks there's something wrong with them. Right? So there's something wrong with me. I need help with myself. So they join a cult because they're looking for answers for themselves. Tom felt like the world did not give him what he deserved, and so he went seeking answers elsewhere. And that's when he found the Sovereign Citizenship Movement. Lenore was still very much the head of the family. She was the one in charge pulling the strings. Lenore was on board with this ideology that the government was bad for her family. So she accepted this honestly pretty quickly.

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[Narrator]

The Matusewicz family closely identify with a movement known as the Sovereign Citizens. I wanted to learn more about this group and their ideology, so I reached out to former Department of justice prosecutor Ed McAndrew. Ed has personally prosecuted members of the Sovereign Citizens Movement and will help to pull back the curtain on how their influence on the Matusewicz family would have deadly consequences. Ed, thank you for being here. First of all, can you just explain for the listeners who don't quite know what it is a little bit about sovereign citizens and connect this to this whole family and this whole situation.

[Expert/Commentator]

The Sovereign Citizens Movement is something that goes back, I think, until at least the 1970s in the United States. And movement might not even be the right word. It's a loose sort of collection of people who are opposed to the government. In its simplest terms, they're anti government activists, litigants, tax protesters, scammers, conspiracy theorists, theorists. But their general sort of emanating principle is that they do not believe that they are subject to the jurisdiction or laws of the United States or of any state in the United States. They are sovereign in their own right and therefore do not have to follow the rules that everyone else has to follow.

[Narrator]

Right. I've done a little bit of research on these types of cases. It tends to pop up on social media with instances of people claiming that they don't need a driver's license or arguing that the law doesn't apply to them.

[Expert/Commentator]

A lot of people who over the years have been involved in the Sovereign Citizens movement have been tax protesters, people who don't want to pay taxes, and they have these sort of tactics that they use to claim that they're not subject to the laws that require them to pay taxes. And the courts have, you know, roundly rejected all of those sort of claims. But that doesn't stop people from making them.

[Narrator]

It doesn't seem like this is a rigidly structured ideology. It seems more personal and malleable to each individual sovereign citizen, which might explain how this way of thinking can easily be used to justify violence.

[Expert/Commentator]

Yeah, I think that's right. The other thing that I think is important, important is it's not exclusive. You know, it's not as if, oh, you're a sovereign citizen, so therefore you're not involved in, you know, some other group or movement or stream of thought that might be anti government. And everybody's different. Not everybody's going to engage in violence. And there are a number of instances in which people who adhere to tenants of, you know, the sovereign citizens, you know, have gone on to engage in acts of violence, for instance. I mean, probably the Most notable, Terry McNichols, Oklahoma City bomber or co conspirator, was involved with the sovereign citizens. And it can mean a lot of different things to a lot of people.

[Narrator]

Would it be fair to say that Tom Matusewicz sort of took this and ran with it? He sort of had this entitled mindset. He found this movement that spoke to that. He kind of took it and ran his own way with it and took it to another level.

[Expert/Commentator]

Tom's background was really interesting. You know, he served in the military. He was a police officer for I think four or five years before, you know, eventually going to work for the postal service. So he was actually, you know, a public sector employee for most of his working life. But at the same time somebody who grew increasingly anti government in his views as he aged.

[Narrator]

It seems pretty clear how Tom's feelings towards the government evolved. But I'm curious as to how he came in contact with ideologies like the sovereign citizens. Would it have been something he came across online or through the Internet?

[Expert/Commentator]

I think Tom was like sort of old school, you know, Tom was not some technology guru who was, you know, sort of out early, you know, in the forums and the, in the chat groups, you know, developing these thoughts. He was, he was more old school. He'd get the stuff in the mail. And in some ways I think that requires a much higher level of dedication and interest than just getting online and finding it and kind of going down that rabbit hole. Right. David, on the other hand, I think was more inclined to use technology, you know, and what we see with technology, like let's remember that this case, you know, really begins in 0607 with the initial kidnapping, the international kidnapping. So over that period of time, that's a really interesting period of time in terms of the development of technology. You think about 06, you know, iPhone was not out or just about to come out. Facebook was just getting going. I don't know if Twitter had been founded. We were using MySpace, if anything. Right. In terms of social media. So now what you see and what we saw through some period of time here in the case, and certainly since then over the last decade, is this just explosion in online communications and communities and communities of every type and sort. Right. You can find like minded people who, you know, sort of validate beliefs and encourage, you know, particular thought processes on any topic in the world. And that's what we've seen happen through social media. And it enables, you know, mobilization in a way that can Lead to physical conduct, including criminal conduct.

[Narrator]

Right. It seems fringe, but I have to imagine that's people who are sovereign citizens are everywhere around the country.

[Expert/Commentator]

I think that's right. And I think it's probably more so today, even, even than it was a decade ago because of the ability to connect online. Because the virtual world really has become the real world. Right. Where we are physically doesn't seem to matter that much anymore. That said, I think you would still find, you know, certain areas that would be preferable just based on the views. You know, less people around, less government around, more space. You know, in our case, the Matusewiches had relocated from, you know, the Philadelphia area and Delaware down to, you know, the border, southwest border in Texas. They went about as far as you could get away from the metropolis of.

[Narrator]

The east, a little more off the grid.

[Expert/Commentator]

Away. Off the grid.

[Narrator]

What is the setting like in that house? You saw the evidence of it, and it had to be chilling. If you can share some insight on that.

[Expert/Commentator]

It's a single story brick rancher, modular home, kind of on the plains down in southwest Texas. Right. Got a fairly decent sized yard, bunch of cows roaming around, but it's kind of, you know, you wouldn't be surprised to see the tumbleweed blowing through. Right. David's living there after his release with his mom and dad. Amy lives fairly close by, but in her own place. And you get inside, it is a hoarder's dream. It is packed to the gills with stacks of papers. And I don't think these people ever threw anything away. Right. So, like, it's difficult to move through the house because it's so full of stuff, old stuff. Back to that, you know, theme we talked about earlier of, you know, sovereignty not being subjected to the government. Right. All of that is in this house along with just, you know, it was like artillery central. There are guns everywhere. There are just loose shells all over the place, like bullets everywhere, gold bars. It was like, you know, it was like somebody was preparing for Armageddon in.

[Narrator]

A hoarder house, which.

[Expert/Commentator]

In a hoarder house, it's full of writing, it's full of papers, it's full of computer. You know, there are three computers there and it's, you know, even down to the old style family portrait of David and Christine with the girls that was probably taking it like, like Kmart or something, right. And, you know, it's still there in the frame, but Christine's face has been scratched out before. The days where you could just delete somebody from a digital photo they go old school and they just scratch your face out.

[Narrator]

I think David's physically scratching Christine's face out of family photos probably gives you an idea of how intense his feelings were towards her at the time.

[Expert/Commentator]

David being hurt, hurt in any way by Christine was just something that was intolerable. As, as the doctors look back through the history, they're saying he seems like he's losing touch with reality. Right. And you know, I, I'm not a doctor, but it's clear that like he is not present in reality and he's kind of going into this world that his mother really drives. And it's very much a grievance driven world. Grievance at Christine, grievance at the government, grievance at everyone who seems to be helping her and hurting them. And it just grows from there. The Matusewicz just keep doubling down and doubling down on fighting the system until they get to the point where we're not going to try to conduct ourselves within the confines of the system any longer. We no longer acknowledge the system as having any jurisdiction over us. We answer only to God and we believe we are on the right side. And therefore whatever actions we take are justified ultimately. And that's where it kind of goes. And it leads you to this point of no return.

[Narrator]

It's what makes these scary people so scary. Right. This deep disconnect that happens that people can go there is just, it's impossible to put ourselves in someone else's brain, never mind a brain that's disturbed and capable of suffering such crazy things. It's like, how do we even get close to it? And hopefully by having a dialogue like this, we can sort of try to get closer to it.

[Expert/Commentator]

Absolutely. Putting ourselves in someone's brain is a really good way of putting it because that's actually what we're doing at trial too. We're trying to take the jury in many cases inside the mind of the offender. Why did they do what they did? How did they get to that point?

[Narrator]

We tell these stories and we do the best we can, but it only leaves us, you know, more concerned and curious and fascinated in not a macabre way, you know, and just desperate for sort of understanding. I think this has been pretty awesome and a rare opportunity to have this conversation with you. So I can't thank you enough.

[Expert/Commentator]

Happy to do it. I enjoyed it. It's, you know, it's really interesting because when we try a case, we only get to put into evidence the things that are allowed to be admitted under the rules of evidence. You're seeing a much bigger picture and telling a much broader story than we could ever do in a courtroom. So it's good chatting with you.

[Narrator]

It's been phenomenal and I hope to see you soon. Thank you again to Ed McAndrew for his insights into the dangerous minds of the Matusewicz family. With his help, we are one step closer to understanding the chaos they have created up to this point and all of the tragedy that is yet to come. Aligning with ideologies and communities like the sovereign citizens movement, the Matusewicz family has never felt more emboldened. Their evil deeds have been justified and encouraged.

[Expert/Commentator]

I think Lenore was the head of it all. I think David wanted to make his mom happy and his mom wanted those kids. He wanted the kids. And I think if they couldn't have them, why should anybody else as a family? They're scary because they feed into each other's delusions. When their goals align, they can do some really scary things. They can create a situation where they have ultimate control.

[Narrator]

They're an insular little group.

[Expert/Commentator]

They took an imaginary prime and, you know, they let it fester and mushroom in their own minds.

They were like minded. They were singular in their focus. They shared grievance, they shared objectives. In many ways, it was the thing thing that brought them together. They played their separate roles, but they all acted as one. That's what makes them so scary.

[Narrator]

The Matusewicz family have a shared goal, the same goal they have had for the last six years. Complete and utter control of the three girls. And if that means a confrontation with the entirety of the US government, then so be was time for David to get back to Delaware. But this time he wasn't coming alone. Next time on Very Scary People.

[Expert/Commentator]

They will stop at nothing.

I hear across the police radio that.

There is a shooting.

You cross the family and you end up dead.

David had made up a hit list of all the people he wanted to kill. Everything, all of it came to this.

[Narrator]

Very Scary People is produced by Lionsgate Alternative Television for id. I'm Donnie Wahlberg. You can follow our show wherever you get your podcasts and we'd love it if you could take a second to leave us a five star review on Apple. Podcasts, podcasts or Spotify.

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Hey everyone, this is Cory and Carly, the hosts of the surviving Sister Wives podcast.

Sister Wives returns at last. And while the Browns have gone their.

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Meri and Janelle form an unlikely alliance, Christine is off living in newly married bliss, and Kody and Robin are left wondering, can they be happy in a monogamous relationship?

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And after all the joy and drama.

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