Ep.8: Last Chance

Summary

Very Scary People - Ep.8: Last Chance

Release Date: April 16, 2025
Host/Author: ID
Description: An intense custody battle turns deadly when Christine Belford’s ex-husband and his family become obsessed with controlling the couple’s three daughters. The family is willing to do anything, including stalking, kidnapping, and even murder, to get their way. Over eight episodes, host Donnie Wahlberg takes listeners down a dark and twisted journey, exploring how one family’s obsession became a mother’s worst nightmare. With exclusive interviews and audio, the story goes beyond the headlines of the sinister Matusewicz family.

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1. The Wilmington Courthouse Shooting ([01:59] - [06:03])

The episode delves into the tragic events that unfolded at the Wilmington courthouse, where Christine Belford, Beth Mulford, and Tom Matusewicz were found dead. David Matusewicz was apprehended attempting to flee the scene.

Key Incident:

"They killed the person they hated the most."
— Ed McAndrew ([02:33])

This act was not merely a personal vendetta but a direct attack on the justice system, symbolizing their deep-seated grievances.

2. Investigation and Evidence ([03:10] - [10:12])

Law enforcement officers meticulously cleared the courthouse and surrounding areas, uncovering significant evidence pointing to the premeditated nature of the crime. David and Tom Matusewicz's white Honda CRV emerged as a focal point in the investigation.

Notable Evidence Found:

• Ammunition
• Electric cattle prod
• Handcuffs and leg shackles
• Large knife
• Ballistic vest
• Documents including a handwritten hit list labeled "HL"

"There was a spiral composition book... the letters H L at the top. Ultimately, we determined that HL stood for hit list."
— Law Enforcement Officer ([07:13])

3. The Matusewicz Family's Motivations ([05:13] - [12:00])

The Matusewicz family's obsession was driven by a desire to regain custody of the three daughters, believing that Christine Belford was a threat to their well-being. Their plans evolved from legal battles to extreme measures, culminating in violence.

Psychological Insights:

"This was potentially an agreed upon plan B... a goodbye embrace."
— Psychologist ([06:15])

Lenore Matusewicz, driven by her conviction to protect the granddaughters, orchestrated aggressive actions to eliminate obstacles, prioritizing Christine's elimination over broader targets.

4. Legal Maneuvers and Pursuit ([12:00] - [16:27])

Despite Christine's death, the fight over the girls continued. Amy Matusewicz attempted to assume custody of the children, disregarding the legal termination of David's parental rights.

"Unless... It's somebody that's family that's taking care of these kids."
— Dax Shepard ([15:40])

Law enforcement swiftly moved to secure the girls, placing them in protective custody and coordinating efforts across state lines to prevent further harm.

5. Discovery of the Matusewicz Compound ([16:27] - [18:27])

A search of the Matusewicz family's Texas compound revealed extensive weapon caches and documentation of their sinister plans, including instructions on evading law enforcement.

Critical Findings:

"Books on how to escape from the country undetected... 'Kill All Lawyers'."
— Law Enforcement Officer ([17:11])

This discovery underscored the meticulous and far-reaching nature of their conspiracy, highlighting their readiness to escalate violence to achieve their objectives.

6. Prosecution Strategy and Legal Challenges ([24:16] - [29:55])

Ed McAndrew spearheaded the prosecution, leveraging a rarely used statute for cyber stalking resulting in death. This unprecedented legal approach aimed to secure life sentences for the Matusewicz family by presenting a comprehensive case built on physical, digital, and testimonial evidence.

Transformative Legal Tactic:

"We were creating new law as we were putting this case together."
— Ed McAndrew ([25:28])

Key Testimony: The eldest daughter’s courageous testimony played a pivotal role in dismantling the family's false narratives. At 14, she confronted her father, grandmother, and aunt, declaring:

"My mother never hurt me. My mother never hurt any of us."
— Katie Moffa ([28:40])

7. Trial and Sentencing ([29:15] - [31:16])

The trial culminated in Lenore, David, and Amy Matusewicz being found guilty of cyber stalking resulting in death, each receiving life sentences. The prosecution's innovative legal strategy set a precedent, emphasizing the severity of their collective crimes.

Sentencing Highlights:

"Lenore was sentenced to life imprisonment on her deathbed."
— Ed McAndrew ([31:16])

David showed no remorse, while Amy exhibited visible emotional distress, recognizing the profound loss of her freedom and family.

8. Psychological Impact and Healing ([37:00] - [40:46])

The episode explores the long-term trauma endured by Christine's daughters and those close to her. Psychologist Dr. Patrice Berry provides insights into the generational trauma and the challenges faced by survivors in rebuilding their lives.

Insights on Trauma:

"Trauma... affects our fear center. If I’m in a fear response when I’m safe, it can make it hard to navigate life."
— Dax Shepard ([39:00])

Dax Shepard emphasizes the necessity of therapy and resilience for the girls to overcome their profound losses and mistrust instilled by the Matusewicz family's actions.

9. Legacy and Reflection ([41:10] - [43:43])

Christine Belford's unwavering strength and dedication to her daughters remain a beacon of hope amidst the darkness wrought by the Matusewicz family. Her legacy is honored by those who knew her, highlighting the enduring impact of her love and protection.

Tributes to Christine:

"Christine mattered."
— Jenny Pugliese ([41:10])

"Christine was a light that never went dim. She taught me how to love myself and others."
— Dax Shepard ([41:34])

10. Conclusion ([43:43] - [44:37])

The episode concludes by underscoring the relentless and manipulative nature of the Matusewicz family, who operated under the guise of normalcy while orchestrating heinous crimes. Despite their meticulous planning, their ultimate failure to control the girls ensures that Christine's legacy of love and protection endures.

"The Matusewicz family is a collective of wolves in sheep's clothing... they failed their goal."
— Narrator ([43:43])

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Key Takeaways

• Premeditated Violence: The Matusewicz family's actions were part of a calculated plan to regain custody through extreme measures, highlighting the dangers of unchecked obsession.

• Legal Innovation: The prosecution's use of cyber stalking resulting in death as a charge set a new legal precedent, demonstrating the evolution of laws to address modern forms of harassment and violence.

• Psychological Resilience: The trauma experienced by victims underscores the critical need for psychological support and therapy in the aftermath of violent crimes.

• Legacy of Love: Christine Belford's enduring spirit and dedication to her daughters serve as a testament to the power of maternal love against overwhelming odds.

---

Notable Quotes:

• “They killed the person they hated the most.” — Ed McAndrew ([02:33])

• “There was a spiral composition book... the letters H L at the top. Ultimately, we determined that HL stood for hit list.” — Law Enforcement Officer ([07:13])

• “My mother never hurt me. My mother never hurt any of us.” — Katie Moffa ([28:40])

• “Trauma... affects our fear center. If I’m in a fear response when I’m safe, it can make it hard to navigate life.” — Dax Shepard ([39:00])

• “Christine was a light that never went dim. She taught me how to love myself and others.” — Dax Shepard ([41:34])

---

Conclusion:

Episode 8 of "Very Scary People" masterfully unravels the dark and intricate saga of the Matusewicz family's descent into obsession and violence. Through detailed investigation, legal battles, and profound personal testimonies, the episode sheds light on the devastating impact of familial conflict and the resilience required to overcome such trauma. Christine Belford's legacy stands as a powerful reminder of love's enduring strength in the face of relentless adversity.

Transcript

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[Ed McAndrew]

This.

[Narrator]

Is a story that involves stalking, psychological torture, alleged sexual abuse, kidnapping and murder. Listener discretion is advised. Christine Belford, Beth Mulford and Tom Matusewicz lay dead in the entrance of the Wilmington courthouse. David Matusewicz has just narrowly been captured by authorities trying to escape the crime scene in the rear of the building. They killed the person they hated the.

[Ed McAndrew]

Most and the place they hated the most. This was not just a bullet to the heart of Christine Belford. This was a bullet to the heart of the justice system that had wronged them. They were aggrieved and it was symbolic in so many ways that they killed her in that courthouse.

[Narrator]

Members of local State and federal law enforcement systematically cleared the courthouse and surrounding areas for other possible threats.

[Law Enforcement Officer]

We had learned where David's white Honda CRV was parked because we had detectives scouring the parking garage that was attached to the courthouse.

[Ed McAndrew]

David and Tom pulled into a handicap spot, backed their car in, and it was immediately adjacent to the exit of the garage, where they could quickly leave the garage if they were able to get out of there.

[Narrator]

Based on how and where the vehicle is parked, police believe this was meant to be David's getaway car. But the investigators on the scene with intimate knowledge of the family make it clear that when it comes to the Matusewicz family, things aren't always as they seem, and it is better to be safe than sorry.

[Law Enforcement Officer]

Due to the history that we knew about the Matusewicz's, we used our bomb unit to clear that vehicle. When detectives located the car, they could tell there was a lot, a lot of items inside the car. So much so that you really couldn't see well into the car. So there was, there was concern that, is the car a plant? If we open the door, potentially is, is there a bomb in this car? They used a robot and a bomb operator in a bomb suit to open the vehicle and remove all the contents before we were able to thoroughly go through it for evidentiary value. There was not a bomb in the car. It was just out of an abundance of caution.

[Narrator]

There may not have been a bomb in the car, but what investigators do find points to something more sinister and far reaching than just a courthouse shooting.

[Law Enforcement Officer]

The white Honda CRV that was located in the Renaissance building ended up being a treasure trove of evidence for this case. There was a large volume of documents that ended up being relevant to the case. There was also a duffel bag in the rear that contained some really concerning items. There was ammunition, electric, cattle prod. There were handcuffs, leg shackles, a large knife, and I believe a ballistic vest was even located within that bag.

[Narrator]

It was all very thoroughly planned out. But for the work, the actions of law enforcement officers in the courthouse that morning, David would have gotten away. And I don't know what would have happened then.

[Ed McAndrew]

What we find is evidence that makes clear that this was not a random act, that this was planned, it was premeditated.

[Psychologist]

For me, that tells me that there was a different plan when they left Texas to come to Delaware. Something happened, something altered that plan, that what occurred at the courthouse potentially was a plan B. And it was a, in my opinion, an agreed upon plan B. Because in the video, you can clearly see Thomas And David embrace in a hug before David walks through security and gains access to the courthouse and Thomas stays in the lobby. They weren't a very affectionate family, so that embrace to me was a goodbye embrace. This is a final I'll see you on the other side kind of embrace.

[Narrator]

If killing Christine was plan B, police discover a terrifying piece of evidence that suggests plan A would have meant far more bloodshed.

[Law Enforcement Officer]

There was a spiral composition book, like a notebook that any kid would take to school with lined up ruled paper. A document was located in that notebook, a handwritten document in a car filled with deadly weapons.

[Narrator]

Nothing fills law enforcement with more dread than a handwritten list in an unassuming red notebook.

[Law Enforcement Officer]

Had the letters H L at the top. Ultimately, we determined that that HL stood for hit list. And the names on that list included all the people that the Matusiewiczes felt were responsible for them losing rights to be around the Matusewicz children. Christine Belford's name was on there. Timothy Hitchens name was on there. Some judges names, attorneys names, medical physicians, psychiatrists, counselors. It was just a who's who of who they felt was responsible for them losing the rights to have anything to do with the Matusewicz girls.

[Narrator]

If there was a larger scale plan, detectives cannot be sure why their focus narrowed. And in the heat of the moment, there is no time to speculate on what could have happened. However, one thing is clear. When push came to shove and it was time to act, the family made the game time decision to prioritize killing Christine over everything else. Because Christine has always been the biggest roadblock to their ultimate goal.

[Psychologist]

We've got a very quickly formed command center in the courthouse, and we're shooting off assignments to people.

[Law Enforcement Officer]

There was a meeting coordinated in the basement of the courthouse. It was a very, very large group of people there. The attorney general at the time was Beau Biden. He ran the meeting. State prosecutor was there. There was some judges there. The first concern at that time were the three Matusewicz, where are they and are they safe?

[Narrator]

The three Matusewicz girls are investigators number one focus. But as one team works to track them down, another mobilizes to neutralize the most dangerous threat to the girls.

[Psychologist]

We know where Thomas is. He's deceased in the lobby. We know where David is. But this is a family affair. This is the entire Matusewicz family. So I immediately start asking, where is Lenore? We start doing some research, trying to figure out where were they before the courthouse, where are they staying? We end up developing an address In Maryland.

[Ed McAndrew]

On the day of the shooting, David and Tom came to the courthouse together. Lenore remained at the at the friend's house in Elkton, Maryland, just across the border from Delaware, where they stayed the night before.

[Psychologist]

I volunteered my team to go over to Maryland to try and put eyes on Lenore and to deal with whatever may be over there. Because my guys are already deputized, they have jurisdiction to go across state lines. So a team goes over there, they end up encountering Lenore. They tell Lenoir that Thomas is deceased.

[Ed McAndrew]

We asked them specifically how did Lenore react to the news that there had been a shooting at the courthouse. And the answer we got was not what a person would expect.

[Psychologist]

She almost doesn't care. The way it was conveyed to me was there was really no follow up questions, no real reaction to that.

[Ed McAndrew]

Lenore seemed nonplussed, focused. Her immediate reaction was not, oh my God, my husband's dead, or maybe David's dead. It was, we have to get the girls now. We have to go get the girls right now.

[Narrator]

In an online interview with Crusade Radio, Lenore freely reveals her motivations for the aggressiveness with which she pursued the three girls. Lenore explains that she is driven by her belief that she had to protect her granddaughters from Christine's alleged predatory behavior. Her objective is to simply get the girls to safety by any means necessary.

[Dax Shepard]

Christine had totally annihilated my son. She said all the time that she knew that the way to hurt him was by hurting their children. And she did. They had gone through custody and divorce. When I found out that my 5 year old granddaughter was being molested by Christine, I went with my son and I took their three daughters to Central America because my son loved his children and had to get them to safety. We were hoping that that's what we had done when we left, but the powers that be brought us back and they put the children back with their abusive mother. So we have to get the children to safety.

[Narrator]

Lenore believes to her core that David's children were most safe when they were on the lam in Central America. She is totally committed to keeping them away from Christine, regardless of what the government says.

[Ed McAndrew]

She was mission focused immediately after word that her husband and son had involved in an active shooting in a courthouse. That was her immediate focus and it was matter of fact and it was intense.

[Narrator]

Thankfully, law enforcement understands that they need to quickly locate the girls and get them to safety immediately. Christine's oldest daughter, Katie Moffa, recalls this terrifying period of time.

[Kristen Bell]

I tried to get in the car and go. I wanted to go get my sisters.

[Dax Shepard]

I wasn't allowed to get them.

[Kristen Bell]

They had already been taken in to.

[Law Enforcement Officer]

The police station in New Castle County. Delaware State police have school resource officers in our public schools. By the time I talked to the state police commander, we had school resource officers en route to all three schools to pick the kids up. By the time this meeting was convened, we had people en route to grab them. Katie Maffa was almost a surrogate mother to her sister. These children, that morning she got them dressed, she gave them breakfast, she got them on the school buses because her mom had to be in court to face evil.

[Narrator]

Literally.

[Law Enforcement Officer]

By that afternoon, those kids were in protective custody. We contacted authorities in Texas to try to locate Amy. I was able to make contact with the Hidalgo County Sheriff's office and we used the FBI task force out there. Initially, Amy was contacted at work in a hospital in Texas by the FBI on the day of the shooting. We just wanted to confirm where she was. And she played like she knew nothing about this.

[Narrator]

Just like Lenore. Amy cannot help but bring up custody of the girls. Despite her best efforts, Amy cannot hide her true intentions.

[Dax Shepard]

I had asked the FBI agent when they came that night, February 11, at 11:30 at night, I want to know who was taking care of my nieces. All they would tell me. Special people that take care of these kind of things. That's not good enough for me.

[Law Enforcement Officer]

Unless.

[Dax Shepard]

It'S somebody that's family that's taking care of these kids. And I knew Christine's family wasn't going to step up and take care of these kids. This is my brother's kid. Yes. He lost his parental rights. That does not mean that, that does.

[Ed McAndrew]

Not make them feel my blood relatives.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't care what any court or any judge says. These are not my blood relatives anymore. Like they were my own children because in my eyes they were.

[Narrator]

In the eyes of the law. Amy ceased to be the girl's aunt the day David's parental rights were terminated. And despite that fact, less than 24 hours after the deaths of her father and ex sister in law, Amy makes a bold attempt to take matters into her own hands.

[Ed McAndrew]

The day after the shooting, Amy from Texas filed a petition to assume custody of the three girls. She sent that petition to the courthouse that was still closed because of the murders. The building had not even been reopened and she was petitioning for custody of the children.

[Narrator]

It's time for law enforcement to lay siege to the Matusewicz, Texas compound. Millard Greer feels confident that the ranch with its Weapons caches and battle trenches will hold valuable insight into the family's planning of the attack at the courthouse.

[Law Enforcement Officer]

Deputy lyo used our information to obtain a search warrant for that property. The house in Ed Kelch again. Every. Every stone that was turned over had evidence. There were books on how to escape from the country undetected. There was a book whose title was Kill All Lawyers. He called us back during the search rather than after, just to try to figure out what we wanted to do with the volume of evidence that was there. There was so much ammo there that we were unable to even get it to Delaware. We investigated bringing it by train. He says, I'm in the bedroom and there's ammunition everywhere you can look. There's documents here instructing Amy where to go to a storage locker that has more weapons. In that letter, Tom says, don't let the government take your guns. When the government takes your grandchildren, it ceases to be your government.

[Kristen Bell]

Hi, I'm Kristen Bell and if you know my husband Dax, then you also know he loves shopping for a car. Selling a car, not so much.

[Dax Shepard]

We're really doing this, huh?

[Kristen Bell]

Thankfully, Carvana makes it easy. Answer a few questions, put in your van or license and done. We sold ours in minutes this morning and they'll come pick it up and pay us this afternoon.

[Dax Shepard]

Bye bye Truckee.

[Kristen Bell]

Of course, we kept the favorite.

[Dax Shepard]

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[Ed McAndrew]

He was taken into custody because he was on federal probation, and it was immediately clear that he had violated that probation because the terms of his probation would not allow him to travel with anyone outside of the state of Texas without his probation officer's approval, which he did not have. He was allowed to travel to the courthouse, but not with his parents. He didn't tell the probation office about that. He also traveled in vehicles full of guns and ammunition, among other things. As a federal probationer, he was not allowed to be in possession of a gun. So because he had violated his probation, he had to go back before the federal judge who sentenced him for the kidnapping case.

[Law Enforcement Officer]

And.

[Ed McAndrew]

And that judge found that David had violated his probation and sentenced him to an additional six months in prison.

[Law Enforcement Officer]

I work for the state police. We prosecute things in the Delaware state court system, and we had hoped to be able to articulate a murder charge against these individuals along with conspiracy charges. We believed there was a large conspiracy amongst this family to kill Christine Belford. Beth Mulford ended up being collateral damage in that.

[Narrator]

However, proving that is another story entirely. Investigators are faced with an uphill battle as they work to somehow connect David Lenore and Amy Matusiewicz to Christine's murder.

[Law Enforcement Officer]

We just don't have the evidence to prove the conspiracy. We were hoping to find some communication in email, a letter, a text message, anything that would allow us to show that they came here to murder Christine Belfort. We knew it, but we didn't have the evidence to bring a murder charge.

[Narrator]

Despite all of the evidence found at the ranch, in the car, at the courthouse, and the hundreds of letters and emails sent between the Matusewicz family, detectives still feel as though their case falls short. As much as they want justice for Christine, they know they only get one shot at a murder conviction.

[Law Enforcement Officer]

It was all chips on the table. If they're found not guilty, it's over. That's when Ed McAndrew came into the picture.

[Ed McAndrew]

David was in custody for violating his federal probation. We knew we had a six month window there for before he would be out on the street and released from the spring through the summer of 2013. It was in that six month period that we built the case.

[Law Enforcement Officer]

Ed McAndrew's primary role at the U.S. attorney's office was as a cyber guy prosecuting high tech crimes, so to speak. And he made everybody aware of there is a statute on the books at the federal level, cyber stalking resulting in death.

[Narrator]

However, at this point, the statute of cyber stalking resulting in death has never been prosecuted before in the United States, making its successful application in this case a potential landmark moment for the prosecution. But Only if Ed McAndrew and his team are able to get a successful conviction.

[Ed McAndrew]

We were creating new law as we were putting this case together. So within this new legal framework, we then had to conduct an investigation to gather all of the evidence that we would need to prove the crime beyond a reasonable doubt. That involved pulling together physical evidence, witness accounts, documentary evidence, tons of digital evidence.

[Law Enforcement Officer]

So that day was the turning point, really, the day that Ed made us aware that that statute existed. But it looked like it would be a tall challenge. Luckily, our partners at the U.S. attorney's office felt it was only right to give it a shot. We have to try it. We can't just let these people go free.

[Ed McAndrew]

There are certain types of criminals who really are committed to their criminal objectives. The law is not going to stop them. It may slow them down for a while, but unless they are incapacitated, it will not stop them.

[Narrator]

And knowing just how far the Matusewicz family has gone to harass intimidate and ultimately murder Christine. The prosecution knows that the only way to truly stop their campaign of terror is if the whole family is behind bars. The prosecution decides to take the leap of faith. With no parachute, they build and present their case against the Matusewicz family. This would be the first time in United States history that someone would be convicted of cyber stalking resulting in death. The trial is going well, but if Ed McAndrew is going to pull this off, he needs an ace in the hole, a star witness.

[Ed McAndrew]

One of the most striking moments was when the oldest daughter testified. Of the more than 70 witnesses who testified at the trial, none were more important than her. It was excruciating for us to have to put her through that, to have her testify, because in many cases, a child victim in particular is re victimized by having to relive all of that, by having to confront and be confronted by these agitators. Keep in mind that the oldest daughter had not seen David, Lenore, or Amy since being rescued in Nicaragua years earlier. Here she was confronting them in a courthouse, walking into a courthouse just blocks from the courthouse her mother walked into and was murdered in to face them. She got up there and said, my mother never hurt me. My mother never hurt any of us.

[Law Enforcement Officer]

In her own words. The oldest daughter took the stand at 14 years old and looked right at her father, grandmother and her aunt and said, none of that is true.

[Ed McAndrew]

So this was the moment of truth for the Matusewiches. And they sat there blankly, David in particular, as the person they were so committed to saving dismantled their falsehoods in front of a jury.

[Narrator]

Dr. A.J. marsden attempts to peek behind the cold, blank stares of Christine's killers during the eldest daughter's testimony.

[Kristen Bell]

When the oldest daughter told the truth on stand and said this abuse did not occur. I don't think Lenore and David felt remorse for the lies that they told. Instead, I think that they felt angry that this child, this favorite child of theirs was not going along with the plan. And they probably felt like this was a sign of Christine. This was one of Christine's traits coming through on this particular child.

[Ed McAndrew]

Putting her on was important because the jury needed to hear from her that what they were saying Christine had done was not true, was completely false, was not based in reality, and only the oldest daughter could do that. What gives a 13 year old girl who has been through all of this the strength to walk through those doors, take that stand and tell you exactly what did and didn't happen, the promise of justice, the possibility that it could be Made right after all of these wrongs. I'm always amazed at how victims of crimes, particularly, you know, horrific crimes, find the strength and the reason to believe that the system's going to work the way it's supposed to work. You know, it's very reassuring sort of in, in terms of our, our system of justice.

[Narrator]

Lenore David and Amy Matusewicz are each found guilty of cyber stalking resulting in death. All three are sentenced to life in prison.

[Law Enforcement Officer]

This wouldn't have happened without a huge, huge team of people and the willingness to risk losing that trial.

[Ed McAndrew]

Lenorma Tusewich, after the trial, became ill and it became clear that she had terminal cancer. She was not able to be present in the sentencing with David and Amy. So the judge in the case actually went to the hospital in Philadelphia where she was in custody under the supervision of the United States marshals and sentenced her to life imprisonment on her deathbed. The defense wanted to put off the sentencing, and the judge said, no, I'm going to the hospital. She's going to hear her sentence before she dies. David had no reaction to his sentence. There was a sense and it was something that, you know, a number of the psychologists we talked to talked to us about, that there was a real question of whether David felt things and how he felt things, whether he really had empathy, whether he could relate, whether he was rational. And his reactions in the courtroom seemed to reflect that. He just didn't have a reaction. It certainly wasn't a surprise, as far as any of us could tell from watching his reaction to the verdict and the sentence. Amy was more emotional in her reaction to both the verdict and the sentence. I think Amy understood how much she had lost, and I think Amy was the one who felt the loss of her life and her liberty the most. Amy had her own family, had her own child. She was now not going to be present for the rest of that child's life.

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[Narrator]

This case at its core is about relationships between parents and children. Families were affected by the deaths of Christine Belford and Beth Mulford. The lives of countless innocents were changed forever. I wanted to understand the true impact that this one family's actions had on so many and the lasting effects of that trauma. I decided to sit down and speak with psychologist Dr. Patrice Berry who specializes in family structures as well as generational trauma in an effort to make sense of this unimaginable tragedy. We're so lucky to have Dr. Patrice Berry here and is hopefully gonna lend some interesting and fascinating insights into this case. Yes, to someone on the outside may seem like a custody battle gone wrong, but on the inside it's so much different in a case that is so large and reaching. How much of Christine's daughters suffered from the Matusewicz family's actions?

[Dax Shepard]

I really think that the three youngest, they lost their mom twice and the Impact of that, I can imagine a lot of significant therapy would be needed to just help them be resilient. Because the other side of it is you can really get lost in that pain and grief and trauma, and you can kind of get lost in the midst of that.

[Narrator]

There's also Beth Mulford, who was a friend and was being a comfort and a support. Lost her life. She was a wife, a mother. It's crazy to think about all the people impacted.

[Dax Shepard]

Beth was there to support her friend. And nobody wants to lose a parent, especially to violence. Traumatic grief is different than losing your parent to an illness or an accident, because this was an act of violence, and so that can add some additional trauma to it. She was just being a good friend and got caught in the middle. And sometimes that can make it feel more senseless.

[Narrator]

And can you talk about how losing a parent to an act of violence can differ from, say, an illness or natural causes?

[Dax Shepard]

With an act of violence, you have somebody making a choice. You have this individual. It can affect the person's sense of safety versus a unexpected illness or something like that. Like, sometimes you're able to prepare. It really is a different type of loss versus a traumatic one, because you then have the court process, you have the articles and the media that can all get involved after something like this.

[Narrator]

And after so much tragedy and loss, how can the ripple effects of murder impact these children later down the line in their adult life?

[Dax Shepard]

I think that could make it difficult for the girls, even as adults, as they have their own families, to be able to trust their kids. Going over to a neighbor's house or with their own families there could bring up this mistrust. Because trauma, the bad stuff, it can get stuck where a person is saying, I'm fine. Everything's fine. But every time they hear a loud noise, they're, you know, having a panic attack. Because things like this affects what we call our. It affects our fear center. And there are fear responses. And if there is a present danger, being in a fear response is normal. But if I'm having a fear response when I'm safe, if I'm in fight flight, freeze, or people please mode, and I'm safe with my partner, that can make it hard to navigate life.

[Narrator]

Yeah, absolutely. And in your experience, how do the victims of these traumas ultimately heal from this?

[Dax Shepard]

So with the trauma survivors that I work with, I work with them on going from victim to survivor, because victim means I don't have any control. There's nothing I can do. You know, I can't. I can't bring them back, which is understandable. But survivor says, I am going to work on managing my emotions. I am going to work on managing my behavior. I'm not going to try to control everybody around me. I'm going to take responsibility for my triggers and that can help stop that generational trauma.

[Narrator]

It's wonderful to have this time with you because I think it's important for people to know that amazing people who do what you do are out there. So I can't even thank you enough for being with us today.

[Dax Shepard]

Thank you for having me.

[Narrator]

The ripples that have echoed from this case are seemingly endless. And it's truly scary to think about the lasting impact the Matusiewiczes have had on everyone involved. Christine's sister in law, Jenny Pugliese, sums up the strength Christine had in making sure she did all she could for her daughters.

[Kristen Bell]

Christine mattered.

[Dax Shepard]

The Matusewicz family tried to make it like she didn't matter, but she does. And her children are resilient and strong and in ways that they shouldn't have.

[Kristen Bell]

To be, but they are.

[Dax Shepard]

And they tried to wipe Christine off the face of the earth, but they.

[Kristen Bell]

They haven't done it.

[Dax Shepard]

How do I remember Christine? Strong. Larger than life. Christine was a light that never went dim. She taught me a lot. She taught me how to love myself and others. Christine was a great mom. And I think if she would take. I think if Christine had a house, it would be the size of earth. So she could take all the children and just love them unconditionally. She will always be in my heart.

[Law Enforcement Officer]

What makes this family so scary is they will stop at nothing, including murder, to gain the custody of David's three daughters. Not only will they stop at nothing, they have the ability to manipulate educated, professional people to enter into their conspiracy and act as unpaid agents for them.

[Psychologist]

What separates the Matusewicz family from many, many of the other cases I've worked is the synergy that they had. They worked together collectively to advance a goal. And that goal was not to care for these three girls, truly care for them. Their goal was to destroy their mother. And when it appeared as though that wasn't going to work, that they weren't getting the effect that they wanted, they changed their plan. And unfortunately, that change led to Christine losing her life and these young girls yet again mourning the loss of their mother.

[Dax Shepard]

In this particular case, you know damn.

[Ed McAndrew]

Well that those kids were going to.

[Dax Shepard]

Be protected by the state of Delaware.

[Kristen Bell]

The day of the shooting, I was actually able to go into the police station and meet with my sisters in a room.

[Sarah Gibson Tuttle]

I didn't know it was going to.

[Kristen Bell]

Be the last time that I would see them.

[Law Enforcement Officer]

Katie was separated from them and would never reside in the same home with them again.

[Kristen Bell]

They took away my mom and my sisters and my home and I was 17 with a 9 month old. I don't know how I dealt with it. I think having my daughter pushed me through. I realized I had to keep doing things that I was doing for her. I couldn't really break down or do any of that.

[Ed McAndrew]

I'm a mom.

[Sarah Gibson Tuttle]

I do see a lot of similarities.

[Kristen Bell]

Between me and my mom.

[Narrator]

The Matusewicz family is a collective of wolves in sheep's clothing. You wouldn't think twice about them if you passed them on the street. They operated in the shadows with meticulous planning, spies and brutal violence, all in the name of their relentless obsession. But in the end, Lenore and the Matusewicz family failed their goal. They never achieved total control of the three girls. Christine, however, only ever wanted her children to be happy. Every day she woke up and chose to love and protect all four of her daughters. Christine's strength and spirit lives on through them. Thank you for joining us this season on Very Scary People. A Family to Fear. Very Scary People is produced by Lionsgate Alternative Television for id. For id. Our executive producer is Keela Woodard and our producer is Jessica Horowitz. For Lionsgate Alternative Television. Our executive producers are Donnie Wahlberg, Desma Simon, Lee Purinton and Jonathan Baruch. Producers are Ben Glasson and Elize Nzunza. This podcast was recorded by Stephen Sleton and mixed by JD Colson. I'm Donnie Wahlberg. You can follow our show wherever you get your podcasts and we'd love it if you could take a second and leave us a five star review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

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[Ed McAndrew]

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[Dax Shepard]

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[Psychologist]

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