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Donnie Wahlberg
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John Rosen
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Donnie Wahlberg
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- [01:34]
Donnie Wahlberg
Just a heads up before we begin. This episode contains references to drugging, incest, sexual violence, death and abuse. Please listen with care. Previously on Very Scary People. The Ken and Barbie Killers. While Carla was sitting in jail for her involvement in the murders of Kristen French and Leslie Mahaffy, she decided to come clean about something else. Her little sister, Tammy. She revealed her and Paul plotted to drug and sexually assault Tammy at their family Christmas party. After the startling confession, only two more years were added to Carla's sentence. But Paul faced an additional murder charge. It's the morning of May 18, 1995, the first day of Paul Bernardo's long anticipated trial. Droves of people are lining up around the multi level concrete courthouse on University Avenue in Toronto, Ontario.
- [02:39]
John Rosen
People would line up, often overnight with their sleeping bags or with their lawn chairs and wait in line so that they could get a spot inside.
- [02:48]
Donnie Wahlberg
The crowd outside the courthouse is incredibly diverse, certainly reflective of the country's biggest city. But it wasn't limited to locals. There Was all different age groups, all different nationalities. There was Americans coming over to watch the trial as well. Like it was a worldwide event. Everyone's hoping to catch a glimpse of Canada's infamous criminal duo.
- [03:13]
Joy Malbaum
It's like, I want to see the face of evil. You know, I want to. You know, I want to see Bonnie and Clyde.
- [03:19]
Donnie Wahlberg
And because it was a public trial, some of them would get their chance.
- [03:24]
Tony Bryant
It was so bad that they. There was a ticket system. You had to line up and get it. You couldn't get in unless you had a ticket.
- [03:35]
Donnie Wahlberg
Every national media outlet was there too. Press from national stations like CBC and CTV and smaller local stations alike were interspersed into the crowd of hopeful spectators. They had their branded microphones held up to their faces and cameras lugged over their shoulders.
- [03:55]
Tony Bryant
We don't have cameras in the courtroom. So they set up on the opposite side of the street, facing the entrance to the courthouse. A two layered structure that allowed all the media outlets to have essentially an office on scene.
- [04:12]
Donnie Wahlberg
It was an unprecedented spectacle, but nobody could seem to look away.
- [04:18]
Joy Malbaum
There was a weird cartoonishness to it at the same time as the horror of it all.
- [04:23]
Kathy
It became a bit of a circus in a weird way. But Canadians just were gripped that summer by the horror of what these two people had done.
- [04:35]
Donnie Wahlberg
But there was one thing spectators were holding their breath for. The videotapes playing the gruesome tapes in court sparked controversy.
- [04:47]
John Rosen
Families and others didn't want the tapes played in court at all.
- [04:51]
Donnie Wahlberg
But without them, a fair conviction could be jeopardized.
- [04:55]
Doug French
We needed to see the perpetrators brought to justice. And they were the vehicle that made sure that everybody understood very clearly what had happened.
- [05:05]
Donnie Wahlberg
And after careful consideration, it was decided that the infamous videotapes would be played.
- [05:13]
Tony Bryant
It's just the sick details and the fact that it's on video.
- [05:18]
Donnie Wahlberg
Like even a movie producer couldn't have possibly created the kinds of things he.
- [05:26]
Tony Bryant
Did to these girls.
- [05:29]
Donnie Wahlberg
And the battle for the last word between Carla and Paul intensified.
- [05:34]
Doug French
The experience of Carla's testimony was one of the most anticipated by anyone who was observing this trial.
- [05:42]
Donnie Wahlberg
Four months would go by as each side presented their arguments, called expert witnesses, and cross examined Carla and Paul in pursuit of the true story behind the murders of Leslie Mahaffy and Kristen French. It dominated the Canadian news cycle.
- [06:01]
Kristen
This case has become the most legally complicated story in Canadian history.
- [06:05]
Donnie Wahlberg
And it gets stranger all the time. And for the first time, they'd hear from the man who sparked nationwide horror. The trial reached the height of its.
- [06:15]
Kristen
Drama when Bernardo took the stand in.
- [06:18]
Donnie Wahlberg
His own defense from id this is very scary, people. The Ken and Barbie Killers. I'm your host, Donnie Wahlberg. You might remember me from our first season, the Amityville Murders. And now in this season, we're traveling to Canada, a place known for its cold beer and warm welcomes, to trace the twisted path of Paul Bernardo and Carla Homolka, a couple from Toronto that appeared loving and wholesome. The truth is, they were anything but. We'll explore how the boy and the girl next door became the killers known as Ken and Barbie. This is episode seven, Ken versus Barbie. On the first day of the trial, Chief Justice Patrick Lesage was sitting at the judge's bench, presiding over the 600 seat wood paneled courtroom. Soon he wouldn't be the only person in the room.
- [07:25]
Kristen
It was a packed courtroom. There was nervous tension.
- [07:30]
Donnie Wahlberg
One by one, onlookers entered the courtroom and sat down. And to the right of the judge was the jury bench. 1,000 people volunteered to take on the case. But in the end, only 12 people were chosen. Four women and eight men. And scattered throughout the courtroom crowd were the victims families. It was the first time the Frenches, the Mahaffys and the Homolkas were in the same room. Wade Hemsworth was in the courtroom reporting for the Hamilton Spectator. Like many of the journalists there, he'd been following the case for years, sitting.
- [08:09]
Doug French
Where we were in such proximity to the families of the people who were directly impacted, who lost the greatest treasures of their lives. At the worst time, they were sitting right in front of us. I could have tapped them on the shoulder. That's how close they were. All of them were remarkably dignified. Through something that no parent should ever have to face, they returned to court every day.
- [08:37]
Donnie Wahlberg
In those initial days, everyone knew they were buckling in for a journey that would reveal painful truths. And it wasn't just the families of the murdered girls either, but another group of women Paul terrorized too.
- [08:51]
Kristen
The victims of the Scarborough rapist filled two rows of seats in the front of the court.
- [08:56]
Donnie Wahlberg
Their presence at the trial was significant. It was a testament to both their strength and their solidarity with Kristen, Leslie and Tammy. They were dedicated to seeing justice fulfilled. Twelve days into the trial, reality would sink in even deeper when the videotapes were called into question. Playing the tapes in the courtroom was a tough call for Justice Lesage.
- [09:25]
Tony Bryant
After hearing arguments about whether the deceased girls had constitutional rights or did they die when they died and did they carry over to the families, the judge had to make a decision.
- [09:38]
Donnie Wahlberg
That's John Rosen, Paul's defense Lawyer Lesage ultimately ruled that only the jury, the lawyers, and Paul himself could watch the videos.
- [09:49]
Tony Bryant
The screens on the videos that the public could see would be blackened, you know, turned off only when a victim was shown.
- [10:01]
Donnie Wahlberg
The victim's families, the media and the public were limited to only the audio.
- [10:07]
John Rosen
So they were on these loudspeakers in the courtroom.
- [10:11]
Donnie Wahlberg
Less than two weeks into the trial, the first tape was played. This was a huge moment for the court. It took nearly two years of tireless searching for these tapes, and now they'd finally be made public record.
- [10:27]
John Rosen
They were usually played three times.
- [10:29]
Donnie Wahlberg
It seemed egregious, but each time served a purpose.
- [10:34]
John Rosen
The first time they would just play it and we would listen. The second time, the jury was given transcripts to read while they were listening. The third time, there was a police officer on the stand who, one of the investigators who would walk the jury through it and say, okay, pause there. You see there? That's the cord that was used to strangle Kristen. See over there, there's the Halothane. Or see there, there's a bruise on her here.
- [11:04]
Donnie Wahlberg
Tony Bryant, who, who worked on Paul's defense team, was among those who heard the tapes. He says the audio alone made its mark.
- [11:12]
Doug French
Everyone knew, of course, that you were listening to the last minutes in the lives of these young women. That's just difficult to do. I don't care who you are.
- [11:27]
Donnie Wahlberg
One by one, each tape revealed the terrifying details of what Kristen and Leslie endured while held captive by Paul. Joy Malbaum was in the courtroom too. She remembers and has never forgotten the specific evidence they contained.
- [11:43]
Kathy
We heard young girls being raped, hit, abused, tortured, yelled at, sodomized on their knees, crying out for their brothers, crying out for their parents and Kristin. Kristen fought back. This was a memory of mine because it was part of the story that day when we learned that she decided to fight back with Paul Bernardo. And her words were, some things are worth dying for. This is from a 15 year old child who knows she's going to die because she knew, because they showed her tapes of Leslie Mahaffy being tortured.
- [12:23]
Donnie Wahlberg
And as details from the videos made their way to the public, people outside the courthouse were calling for Paul's punishment.
- [12:31]
John Rosen
Kill him.
- [12:32]
Donnie Wahlberg
Kill him.
- [12:33]
Kristen
You should get rid of him. Kill him. Public hanging. Bring him up.
- [12:38]
Donnie Wahlberg
But inside the courtroom, the girls families were silently suffering alongside everyone else. The Homolkas often chose to stay, but at times plugging their ears to block.
- [12:51]
Kristen
Out the sounds of the graphic videotapes.
- [12:54]
Donnie Wahlberg
Some of the families couldn't bear being.
- [12:56]
John Rosen
In the room when The Crown would say, we are going to now play this tape. All the families would stand up and walk out.
- [13:02]
Donnie Wahlberg
But there was one especially unforgettable day. Debbie Mahaffey came into the courtroom while audio of her daughter was playing with a victim support service staff by her side. She stood there and listened. Joy and Kathy saw her that day.
- [13:21]
Kathy
And I remember seeing Debbie Mahaffy, and she's crying, wailing, because she's hearing her daughter for the first time since she was kidnapped and then found dead.
- [13:34]
Donnie Wahlberg
And what happened next was unforgettable.
- [13:37]
John Rosen
They got to the worst part of the tape, which is when Paul Bernardo is being incredibly violent with Leslie, and she's crying, and she's begging him to let her go. She's crying, asking to see her little brother, asking to see her mom. She wants to see her friends. And you can hear in her voice that just how scared she is. And right at that moment, she let out this cry and this howl that it was just pure agony that she couldn't do anything to help her daughter. And she was listening to her in her final moments.
- [14:23]
Donnie Wahlberg
After 20 days of tediously pouring over the videotape evidence, the prosecution was confident. Not a single detail, however excruciating they may have been, was looked over. But the videos ultimately couldn't determine the most important question of the trial.
- [14:39]
Doug French
Because the the videos did not show the actual killing, the question was still left open as to who did it.
- [14:49]
Donnie Wahlberg
On June 19, one month after the trial began, it was finally time for Carla to testify against Paul. The first day of her testimony, the courthouse was buzzing. The energy was palpable.
- [15:04]
Joy Malbaum
On the day Carla testified against her then ex husband. Man, oh, man. There was a lineup down the block.
- [15:15]
Donnie Wahlberg
Outside the courthouse that day. Carla walked through the courthouse and up onto the witness stand.
- [15:22]
John Rosen
She was so small that no one could see her. So, like, everyone was, like, standing up, and the judge got mad and told everyone to sit down. And there was just so much anticipation.
- [15:32]
Donnie Wahlberg
The woman everyone had built up in their minds for so long was so different than they imagined.
- [15:39]
John Rosen
The pictures we'd seen of her in the media weren't really representative of what she looked like. She was just a petite, pretty young.
- [15:49]
Donnie Wahlberg
Woman, but her face expressionless, her demeanor almost robotic. After the initial shock of her appearance, it was time to get down to business.
- [16:04]
John Rosen
She spent several days with the Crown going through her relationship with Paul Bernardo, what happened with Leslie, what happened with Kristen.
- [16:12]
Donnie Wahlberg
As she recounted the violence the two girls endured while she and Paul held them captive. Carla was noticeably unemotional. Joy remembers it well, I'm just looking.
- [16:23]
Kathy
At Carla as she's just reading, matter of factly how they kidnap and rape and torture these girls and how they're killed. Like reading a laundry list and making sure that, you know, we all know that, you know, she made the effort to comfort one of the girls by giving her a teddy bear.
- [16:44]
Donnie Wahlberg
It was all really unsettling. Her monotone presentation was similar to the initial interview, confessing to the Crown as part of her plea deal. Here's Carla in that interview.
- [16:59]
Carla Homolka
He went over to her and he strangled her more. I think I watched that time. What the hell? She's dead.
- [17:05]
Donnie Wahlberg
Anyway, in court, when the Crown pivoted to questions about Kristen, Carla's tone was a bit different. She actually cried.
- [17:15]
John Rosen
She, you know, felt really bad about Kristen because she figured they were friends because they had spent so much quality time together.
- [17:24]
Donnie Wahlberg
Let's backtrack for a moment here. Carla helped Paul lure Kristen into their car in the parking lot of Grace Lutheran Church.
- [17:32]
John Rosen
From, you know, all accounts there. Carla Homolka was in the passenger seat and called Kristen French over and said, you know, hey, we need help with directions. Can you help with directions? So Kristin came over. Carla got out and put the map on the hood of the car.
- [17:48]
Donnie Wahlberg
Then they shoved Kristin in the car and held her captive, torturing her for three days before killing her. That's the quality time Carla was referring to. Carla made a similar point and alluded to the time she spent with Kristen in the plea deal interviews, too. Here's Carla in her own words. It's all on tape in a 1997 special put out by the Fifth Estate.
- [18:15]
Carla Homolka
I never should have gotten to know Kristen because you get emotionally involved with these people, and it really hurts. It hurts a lot more because I felt like I was friends with both of them, especially Kristen, because we did so much stuff together. We put makeup on together. We talked, you know, just girl talk. And Paul was. When Paul was gone, getting us food. And it just made it hurt even more.
- [18:40]
Donnie Wahlberg
But despite her claims about having a connection to the victims, in the same interview, she also admitted her complicity in Kristen's death.
- [18:50]
Carla Homolka
He wanted to keep her for longer. And I didn't want to. Like I was going to work. I didn't want to go to work knowing that this girl was in my house and she couldn't escape so easily. And I didn't. I was afraid. So I didn't suggest to him that we kill her on Sunday. But I knew that she. I knew that she had to be gone.
- [19:13]
Donnie Wahlberg
In court, Carla's story didn't waver from her initial meetings with the Crown. When she struck her deal, she was still claiming to be a battered wife in a tumultuous relationship, and she too was a victim of Paul's and that she was an unwilling participant in the murders of Kristen and Leslie. It was only out of fear for her own life that she cooperated with Paul.
- [19:37]
John Rosen
She always went back to the fact that she was afraid.
- [19:40]
Donnie Wahlberg
The prosecution continually circulated the image of Carla with the deep black eyes from the time when she was sent to the hospital after the couple's final domestic dispute. And because the tapes never revealed who exactly enacted the killing, Carla made sure to be especially specific with those details.
- [20:01]
Carla Homolka
Her feet were tied with that electrical electrical cord that he had used to kill Leslie. And then he strangled her after he was done.
- [20:13]
Donnie Wahlberg
After five days of well prepared testimony, Carla's side of the story had been exhausted. But her claims were yet to be tested by Paul's defense. Carla's time on the stand was far from over. It was time for the cross examination.
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- [22:34]
Donnie Wahlberg
The cross examination started off with a bang.
- [22:39]
Doug French
His opening was one of the most dramatic things I've ever seen in court. He had a folder in his hand and he's wearing his lawyer's robes. And he came out from behind his lawyer's table like something that had been released from a cage.
- [22:57]
Donnie Wahlberg
Over the course of her testimony, John Rosen had been eagerly awaiting his moment to approach Carla on the stand.
- [23:05]
Doug French
And she would pop herself up onto the stool in the witness box like a. Like, I think, the way that she thought a gentle woman would do. And this facade was something that John Rosen was so eager to break as quickly as possible.
- [23:22]
Donnie Wahlberg
People in the crowd were excited to watch his questioning, too. To this day, John has a reputation in Canada for his bulldog approach.
- [23:30]
Doug French
Everyone was waiting to see what he would get out of her, to see what she would say, to see if she would break down.
- [23:38]
Donnie Wahlberg
And John certainly pulled out all the stops.
- [23:41]
Doug French
He pretty well ran right up to get right in her face. And I mean, they, I'm sure, could smell one another's breath like that. They were that close.
- [23:53]
Donnie Wahlberg
Here's John recounting the opening moment in his own words.
- [23:58]
Tony Bryant
I said, who's this a picture of? She said, that's my sister Tammy. I said, right. And this is a picture of Tammy in her coffin after they exhumed her. Because you and him put her there, didn't you? And she was pretty shaken, actually. And she said, yes. And then I said, and who is this a picture of? This is Leslie Mahaffey, isn't it? She said, yes. And I said, and these are the cement blocks with the parts of her body in it that you and him put there. Isn't that right, Carla? And then I went to the third one and I said, who is this? I said, that's Kristen French, isn't it? And her school uniform that she was wearing the day you kidnapped her. And then this is her on a gurney, naked, scoured, no forensics, because you.
- [24:52]
Donnie Wahlberg
Did that despite John's intense, intimidating approach. Carla didn't break.
- [24:59]
Doug French
She was shaken and she was visibly upset. But she remained a pretty steadfast witness and stuck to her story through his long cross examination of her.
- [25:11]
Donnie Wahlberg
But the way Carla held it together was seemingly playing into the defensive strategy.
- [25:16]
Tony Bryant
As she survived each day of cross, she got a little bit stronger. Now, I was worried about that at the time, but I think it also helped me because it showed the jury that she was no snowflake that could be blown away in the wind.
- [25:37]
Donnie Wahlberg
In her cross examination, Carla was unknowingly revealing her independent and hard headed qualities, conflicting with the image she had so carefully crafted of an easily manipulated, meek woman.
- [25:51]
Tony Bryant
She did have an inner core of iron, and it came out and she could make her own decisions. And when she decided when he would go out for food and she was left guarding one of the girls, she didn't do anything about it. And her claims of being afraid and all that just fell on deaf ears.
- [26:12]
Donnie Wahlberg
Her reaction, or lack thereof, emboldened their tactic to expose Carla as a willful participant in hopes of reducing Paul's charges. After 21 days of testimony and fiery cross examination, Carla's time on the stand was up.
- [26:30]
John Rosen
It wasn't until the last minute that John Rosen stood up and said he would elect to call Paul Bernardo to the stand.
- [26:37]
Donnie Wahlberg
And it was time for Paul to face his consequences in front of some of the people he hurt the most. He was wearing a black suit and a white collared shirt and dress shoes. When he approached the court, Paul Bernardo.
- [26:52]
John Rosen
Stood up and he, you know, confidently walked past the jury, looked at all of them, made eye contact with them, acted like he was going on a job interview or something, was very confident and sure of himself. He actually stood for the first day and looked directly at the jury with every answer.
- [27:12]
Donnie Wahlberg
Just like Carla. Paul stuck to his story that Carla was the one who killed Leslie and Kristin.
- [27:19]
John Rosen
He started off by saying to the jury, I know I've done a lot of terrible things, but I did not kill these girls. And he looked right at them. He gestured with his hands. He was like a salesman, like just really working the room.
- [27:36]
Joy Malbaum
Bernardo's whole defense was simple. He admits he's a very bad guy. He, he acknowledges the Scarborough rapes, he acknowledges he's a kidnapper and a rapist, but he's not a killer, says Bernardo. She's the killer.
- [28:01]
Donnie Wahlberg
In Paul's recollection, the girls died by different circumstances than Carla had told the court.
- [28:07]
John Rosen
According to him, Leslie was suffocated by Carla homolka with a pillow, which Carla Homolka denied, and that Kristin died accidentally by strangling herself because she had been tied with a cord around her neck to a hope chest, and that she was struggling to get free and she strangled herself by accident.
- [28:32]
Donnie Wahlberg
After Paul recounted the events as he remembered them, John questioned him further. John asked about Tammy.
- [28:40]
Tony Bryant
So everybody expected me to go through his life history and all that sort of thing. And I just got him up there and I said, okay, Paul, look, did you and Carla, you know, upturned Tammy and sexually molest her and all that sort of thing? He said, yes, we did. Okay, so let's get that off the table. All right, let's talk about Leslie. Tell me in like, you know, did you do this? No, I didn't kill her. This is what happened. This is how it happened. What about Kristen now? I didn't kill her. This is what happened. This is how it happened. Okay, thank you. Sat down less than 30 minutes.
- [29:18]
Donnie Wahlberg
Paul's testimony may have been too little, too late. At that point. The general consensus was that everybody who had been invested in the trial had their minds made up.
- [29:30]
Tony Bryant
The problem that I think I had is that the tapes were just impossible to get over, even though they did not show the homicides, Just the participation in the domination of these two poor, innocent girls was just horrendous.
- [29:49]
Joy Malbaum
He would be lucky if he got away with a long prison term instead of his whole life. And that was all predicated on his word against her word, you know, Ken versus Barbie.
- [30:03]
Donnie Wahlberg
In his closing argument, John Rosen admitted Paul kidnapped, raped, and confined Leslie and Kristen, but maintained there was no proof he murdered them. He emphasized that Carla's testimony was not credible enough to convict him of murder. Prosecution closed their argument, telling jurors that even if they don't believe Carla, they should still convict Bernardo of murder because the videotapes provided enough proof that he killed the girls. After each side rested their case, the jury was finally dismissed to reach a verdict.
- [30:42]
Kristen
Justice Patrick Lesage told the eight man, four women panel to consider all of the evidence in the murders of Kristen French and Leslie Mahaffey before they reach a decision. That evidence includes 52 days of testimony, 87 witnesses, and several graphic videotapes.
- [31:02]
John Rosen
The jury went out for deliberations early in the afternoon on the first day. And the reporters, we just all are hanging around in the hallway waiting, hoping that, you know, it's going to be quick because we think it's an open and shut case.
- [31:19]
Donnie Wahlberg
The members of the court, the families of the victims, and the entire country waited with bated breath for the final decision.
- [31:26]
John Rosen
In your heart, you knew he was guilty and you knew he was going to be found guilty, but you just needed to hear the words.
- [31:34]
Donnie Wahlberg
But everyone would have to wait.
- [31:36]
John Rosen
The jurors deliberated just for a few hours, and then they retired for the evening. We all came back at 9 the next morning. They started their deliberations again, and before noon they came back with their verdict.
- [31:50]
Donnie Wahlberg
Collectively, it took only eight hours for the jurors to reach their final decision.
- [31:56]
Doug French
The verdict was guilty.
- [31:58]
Donnie Wahlberg
And on the outside, reporters were ready to break the news.
- [32:02]
Kristen
Let me just tell you what it was like in that courtroom just moments ago. It was a packed courtroom. There was nervous tension. When Bernardo came into the courtroom, he was. The courtroom just went dead silent. When the jury walked in, it got even quieter. And then the justice asked if they had reached their verdict. And he did. And he went through the counts one, two, which are first degree murder. Guilty, guilty, guilty all the way down. Guilty of first degree murder of Leslie Mahaffey, guilty of first degree murder of Kristen French, guilty of aggravated sexual assault of Leslie and Kristen, guilty of kidnapping the school girls, guilty of forcible confinement of Leslie and Kristen, and guilty of performing an indignity to a human body.
- [32:49]
Doug French
He was sentenced to life imprisonment with no eligibility for parole until 25 years had passed.
- [33:00]
Donnie Wahlberg
His fate was sealed, and it appeared he felt nothing.
- [33:05]
Kristen
Bernardo stood as he has throughout this trial, cold and stone faced, showing no emotion as he was sentenced to two automatic life sentences.
- [33:15]
Donnie Wahlberg
But the courtroom immediately erupted with emotional intensity.
- [33:19]
John Rosen
So as soon as we heard the words that he was guilty, it was absolute mayhem outside the courthouse with people excited and happy.
- [33:30]
Donnie Wahlberg
Some even ran behind the paddy wagon transporting Paul to prison.
- [33:35]
Kathy
People jeer Paul Bernardo, now a convicted murder.
- [33:42]
John Rosen
There was a huge scrum of reporters, everyone trying to hear from everybody.
- [33:47]
Donnie Wahlberg
They especially wanted to hear from the Mahaffys and the Frenches. With dozens of reporter microphones in their faces, the families read statements on the steps of the courthouse. Leslie's dad Dan, stood by her little brother Ryan as he spoke.
- [34:05]
Kristen
We feel it would be inappropriate and impossible to speak how we feel at this moment. The intensity of the overwhelming pain and strong emotion have once again swept us and rendering us it impossible for us to adequately talk about the verdict, the death of Leslie and what this moment really means to us.
- [34:26]
Donnie Wahlberg
While the verdict gave Dan finality, it couldn't give him back what was most important.
- [34:32]
Kristen
Only the trial is over. Leslie is still not coming home.
- [34:36]
Donnie Wahlberg
Kristen's dad, Doug, was wearing a green sweater in the same hue as the ribbons worn in honor of Kristen when she disappeared. He addressed the press on behalf of the French family today with the guilty.
- [34:50]
Kristen
Verdict, especially the guilty verdict for first degree murder of our daughter, there is some sort of closure. Well, it can't return our daughter to us. We have the satisfaction of seeing this perpetrator punished.
- [35:04]
Donnie Wahlberg
Kristin's mom, Donna, was by his side when he shared one last message to their daughter.
- [35:11]
Kristen
Finally, and as always, our final words for our daughter. With the trial over, Christy, you can't be hurt anymore. We love you.
- [35:23]
Donnie Wahlberg
Then they shared a tight emotional embrace as tears ran down their faces after the trial, the Homolkas darted to their car when a reporter followed them.
- [35:34]
Kristen
You feel that your daughter was vindicated in the jury's decision?
- [35:37]
Donnie Wahlberg
Yes, she was. And that's all they said. Beyond the families so directly impacted by Paul and Carla's senseless violence, a sigh of collective relief was felt by all who had spent their summer glued to the trial.
- [35:56]
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- [36:28]
Eugenio Derbes
And the following message is brought to you by E Trade from Morgan Stanley. With E Trade you can dive into the market with easy to use tools, zero dollar commissions and a wide range of investments. And now there's even more to love. Get access to industry leading research and insights from Morgan Stanley to help guide your decisions. Open an account and get up to $1,000 or more with a qualifying deposit. Get started today@etrade.com terms and other fees apply. Investing involves Risks. Morgan Stanley Smith Barney LLC Member Sipic etrade is a business of Morgan Stanley. Hey prime members, Are you tired of ads interfering with your favorite podcasts? Good news. With Amazon Music you have access to the largest catalog of ad free top podcasts included with your prime membership. To start listening, download the Amazon Music app for free or go to Amazon.com ad free podcasts that's Amazon.com ad free podcasts to catch up on the latest episodes. Without the ads, folks were back in the bottom of the six. Lorenzo's on the mound. His slider's been. Wait, is that a cat on the field?
- [37:33]
John Rosen
That tabby's really moving.
- [37:35]
Kathy
He's past second base.
- [37:36]
Eugenio Derbes
And coach Bakerfield's making a grab.
- [37:39]
Kristen
And.
- [37:39]
Donnie Wahlberg
Oh, he missed.
- [37:41]
Il Maquillage
Incredible.
- [37:42]
John Rosen
Someone give that cat a contract.
- [37:44]
Eugenio Derbes
But, folks, even this incredible cat can't sign up for Lemonade Pet Insurance. But you can cover your pet now@lemonade.com incredible.
- [37:58]
Donnie Wahlberg
If you're asking yourself what happened to Paul Bernardo and Carla Homolka after the trial and where are they now, rest assured, you're not alone. Karla Homolka served all 12 years of her controversial sentence right to the last.
- [38:15]
John Rosen
Minute amidst, you know, outcry from all of Canada.
- [38:19]
Donnie Wahlberg
Over a decade had passed, but Canada never forgave or forgot.
- [38:26]
John Rosen
People were so angry that she got what they called a deal with the devil.
- [38:31]
Donnie Wahlberg
She was released from St. Anne de Plain prison in Quebec on July 4, 2005, under nine conditions. Here are a few that stood out. She had to inform the police of where she lived, where she worked, and who she lived with. Should she choose to change her name, she needed to disclose it to them. She could not contact Paul Bernardo, the families of Leslie Mahaffey and Kristen French, or anyone with a history of violent criminal behavior. She could not associate with people under the age of 16. Carla complied with all conditions and promptly resumed a seemingly regular life on the outside. But she did not return to Toronto and the conditions of her release were removed just four months after they were put in place. She even started a family.
- [39:30]
John Rosen
She got married to her lawyer's brother and they had children together and briefly.
- [39:36]
Donnie Wahlberg
Moved to French island in the southern Caribbean. But back in Canada, to this day, Carla is a pariah.
- [39:45]
John Rosen
Every once in a while, when someone spots her doing something either with her kids school or doing something in the community, there'll be a bit of a backlash. You know, maybe pictures will be sent to the media and people get angry, but there's nothing they can do. There's nothing they can do. She has served her sentence and she is now out in the community.
- [40:07]
Donnie Wahlberg
And she maintains her story that she was manipulated into her involvement in the deaths of Kristin, Leslie and Tammy.
- [40:16]
Kathy
She has never apologized. She has never shown remorse. She has never taken ownership of her crimes.
- [40:24]
Donnie Wahlberg
Paul began his life sentence at Kingston's penitentiary in Ontario. He was classified as a dangerous offender and kept in segregation.
- [40:35]
John Rosen
Paul Bernardo is kept in solitary confinement in a special wing of the prison. Pretty much 24 hours a day, you know, maybe 23 hours a day, he's in this tiny 10 by 10 cell by himself.
- [40:47]
Donnie Wahlberg
As soon as he got there, Paul had his eyes on parole and began doing everything he could to one day.
- [40:53]
Doug French
Be released in anticipation of those 25 years coming through. From the date of his arrest, which would have been in 2017, he was taking whatever treatment programs were available to him in the penitentiary. He was trying to obtain assessments that showed that the 25 years had accomplished something in terms of treatment.
- [41:20]
Donnie Wahlberg
But his parole was denied. It's been said he makes pathetic reaches for pity.
- [41:29]
Tony Bryant
He cries a lot. I read that he cries a lot in jail. The sadistic killer thinks that he is the victim.
- [41:38]
Donnie Wahlberg
At Paul's parole hearing in 2017, he requested to be removed from solitary confinement.
- [41:45]
John Rosen
That he be put on a more general wing of the jail with the general population, because he cannot stand to live this way any longer.
- [41:57]
Donnie Wahlberg
His request was denied, but six years later, this past June, he was transferred from maximum security to a minimum security prison in Quebec. The decision to move him has been the subject of public outcry, but there are no plans to release Paul from his indefinite sentence. After the trial, Paul and Carla's pink house on Bayview Drive, where they tortured Leslie and Kristen, was boarded up and defaced with graffiti messages that read, rot in hell, Paul Bernardo. Neighbors say that almost nightly rocks are.
- [42:34]
Kristen
Thrown at the house of horrors.
- [42:36]
Donnie Wahlberg
They want it torn down. The neighbors got their wish.
- [42:44]
Joy Malbaum
They knocked down the house as a way of kind of closing the book. They destroyed the place where all of this happened. Not to destroy the memories, but to destroy the place. To destroy this place where sadistic, dark, awful, unspeakable crimes happened. For the fun and pleasure of Paul Bernardo and Carla Hamolka.
- [43:10]
Donnie Wahlberg
The infamous, horrific videotape evidence was destroyed.
- [43:15]
Joy Malbaum
No one will see those awful images again. No one will hear those awful sounds again.
- [43:20]
Donnie Wahlberg
Locking them away in an evidence archive was not a viable option to them. It posed too much of a possibility, even if slim, that they could one day be unearthed again. And speaking of locking them away, remember Paul's first lawyer, Ken Murray, who hid the tapes from the crown in 2000? He was ultimately cleared of obstruction of justice for withholding them. While so much of the violence saga has been destroyed, Canada and those affected have been permanently altered.
- [43:55]
Joy Malbaum
I've often wondered, what are the lessons of all of this? What do we take away as a society or as individuals from the whole episode?
- [44:04]
Donnie Wahlberg
St. Catherine's especially, has never been the same.
- [44:08]
Joy Malbaum
Our hometown, St. Catharines, wasn't a safe place anymore.
- [44:12]
John Rosen
They just didn't take from the families.
- [44:14]
Joy Malbaum
They took from the whole community.
- [44:16]
Donnie Wahlberg
And of course, the Mahaffey and French families are forever living with a void that can never be filled.
- [44:23]
Doug French
The memories of those young women are held both specifically and generally, in ways that are positive, that they are remembered as people of potential, as kind people, as people who were important to their families and friends and enhanced their lives, but never got to live their own lives into adulthood. And we never got to know what they would be like as mothers, what contributions to the world they might have made, which could have been great.
- [44:57]
Donnie Wahlberg
And although rife with complexity, Tammy's memory lives on, too.
- [45:02]
Doug French
We'll never know who she might have become and what she might have done, because those possibilities were taken away for nothing. Nothing of value at all. The opposite of value. They were wasted.
- [45:17]
Donnie Wahlberg
And the Homolkas have had to face now navigating a web of difficult reckonings and emotions.
- [45:24]
Doug French
Her parents were in such an awful and complicated position. It's not easy to say that the family of somebody who was responsible for killing three people needs to be in.
- [45:38]
Donnie Wahlberg
Our thoughts, but they do, ultimately. Dorothy, Carl and Lori lost family, too.
- [45:44]
John Rosen
They lost their daughter. Daughter. They lost both daughters in some ways. And I think they really wanted to believe Carla. I think they really wanted to save the daughter that still was there. And, you know, I think they placed blame on Paul Bernardo and some of that blame was appropriate. But, yeah, certainly they're no monsters. They're victims in this, too. Losing a child is one of the worst things you can experience, but to learn, yeah, that it was your other child who murdered her sister, and then for the whole world to be in on this and witnessing your worst pain, your worst moment, your worst family nightmare, you know, it's so exacerbated and I certainly feel for them too.
- [46:28]
Donnie Wahlberg
Time has been taken to reflect on what could be learned from every aspect of the story.
- [46:34]
Doug French
Nothing can ever make up for what happened, but for nothing positive to have happened that would make this less likely to happen again in the future would be tragedy upon tragedy.
- [46:47]
Donnie Wahlberg
Some people believe there were important takeaways from the case and change has been affected where missteps in the investigation were identified.
- [46:56]
Doug French
Some procedures and technology have changed in policing and investigation that help police to collaborate with one another to share information more readily, especially when it crosses jurisdictional boundaries, as these crimes did.
- [47:15]
Donnie Wahlberg
And there's been time to reflect on the role Carla's privileges played in her lenient plea deal. I have to wonder how much the.
- [47:23]
Il Maquillage
Fact that she was a white, middle class woman plays into her sentence and.
- [47:28]
Donnie Wahlberg
The outcome in this case, because I.
- [47:31]
Il Maquillage
Don'T think we could ignore the fact that she was in a privileged situation and perhaps had she been a different race, different class, even a different gender, how things may have been different for her.
- [47:43]
Donnie Wahlberg
As the story ends, it comes with the age old reminder to never judge a book by its cover.
- [47:50]
Joy Malbaum
They look like us, Paul and Carla. So what is the difference between them and us other than they're insane and that they're sociopaths? But you don't see that in a person.
- [48:05]
Donnie Wahlberg
You know, evil walks among us. I mean it lives next door.
- [48:08]
Il Maquillage
It's got blonde hair and blue eyes.
- [48:09]
Donnie Wahlberg
And it's cute as a bug and it can charm the pants off your parents. Down the twisted path of the blonde haired, blue eyed couple, we've come to find that just like Ken and Barbie, evil too can come in a shiny package.
- [48:24]
Joy Malbaum
If that's the lesson, what do you do about that other than hope that you don't cross paths with people like these two ever.
- [48:35]
Donnie Wahlberg
Very scary people. The Ken and Barbie Killers is hosted by me, Donnie Wahlberg. It's a production of ID in collaboration with Neon Hum Media and is based on an original series created by CNN Executive Producer Nancy Duffy at cnn. Our senior producer is Sabina Ryman, our producer is Alison O'Brien and our associate producer is Michael Reyes from ID. Our executive producer is Jessica Lowther from Neon Hum Media. Our Executive producer is Jonathan Hirsch. Cooper Mall is our producer and our Associate producer is Zoe Culkin. Our editor is is Stephanie Serrano. Samantha Allison is our Production Manager. Our fact checker is Katherine Newham. Josh Hahn is our mix engineer. Theme and Original Music composed by Asha Ivanovich.
- [49:46]
John Rosen
To make switching to the new Boost Mobile risk free, we're offering a 30 day money back guarantee.
- [49:51]
Eugenio Derbes
So why wouldn't you switch from Verizon or T Mobile?
- [49:53]
John Rosen
Because you have nothing to lose. Boost Mobile is offering a 30 day money back guarantee.
- [49:57]
Eugenio Derbes
No I asked why wouldn't you switch from Verizon or T Mobile?
- [50:01]
John Rosen
Wouldn't because you love wasting money as a way to punish yourself because your mother never showed you enough love as a child.
- [50:08]
Eugenio Derbes
Whoa. Easy There applies to online activations, requires port in and auto pay. Customers activating in stores may be charged non refundable activation fees. Support for this podcast and the following message is brought to you by E Trade from Morgan Stanley. With E Trade you can dive into the market with easy to use tools, $0 commissions and a wide range of investments. And now there's even more to love. Get access to industry leading research and insights from Morgan Stanley to help guide your decisions. Open an account and get up to $1,000 or more with a qualifying deposit. Get started today@etrade.com terms and other fees apply. Investing involves risks. Morgan Stanley Smith Barney llc Member SIPIC E Trade is a business of Morgan Stanley. Hey guys, have you heard of Goldbelly? It's this amazing site where they ship the most iconic famous foods from restaurants across the country anywhere nationwide. I've never found a more perfect gift than food. They ship Chicago deep dish pizza, New York bagels, Maine lobster rolls and even Ina Garten's famous cakes. So if you're looking for a gift for the food lover in your Life, head to goldbelly.com and get 20% off your first order with promo code gift.
- [51:17]
Donnie Wahlberg
My name is Karen Reed.
- [51:19]
John Rosen
I'm being charged with murdering a Boston police officer. This can't be real. Doing this film is my testimony.
- [51:26]
Eugenio Derbes
A Body in the Snow the trial of Karen Reed.
- [51:29]
Donnie Wahlberg
An ID documentary event tonight at 9.