Victor Davis Hanson: In His Own Words – The Two Swords of Christ: The History of the Crusades

Podcast: Victor Davis Hanson: In His Own Words
Host: Victor Davis Hanson
Guest: Raymond Ibrahim
Date: November 26, 2025
Episode Theme: A deep historical and cultural discussion on the legacy of the Crusades, the role of the Templars and Hospitallers, and the enduring East-West dynamic. The conversation centers on Raymond Ibrahim’s new book, “The Two Swords of Christ,” exploring Western and Islamic interaction from the Crusades to present-day events, with insights into cultural, religious, and political transformations.

Episode Overview

Victor Davis Hanson hosts historian and author Raymond Ibrahim to discuss the newly released book “The Two Swords of Christ: Five Centuries of War Between Islam and the Warrior Monks of Christendom.” The discussion explores the historical reality versus the modern mythmaking around the Crusades and Christian military orders, offers context for today’s global tensions, and highlights recurring cycles in Christian-Muslim relations.

Introduction & Background

• Personal Connection

  • Victor reminisces about meeting Raymond Ibrahim at Cal State Fresno nearly three decades prior.
  • Ibrahim’s scholarly beginnings focused on Greek and Latin, eventually leading to his thesis under Hanson and an academic exploration of East-West conflict.
  • Key early work: Ibrahim’s “Al Qaeda Reader,” sourced from rare Arabic texts discovered at the Library of Congress ([00:59]–[04:35]).

• Quote:

  • “The messages we were being fed by the media from Osama bin Laden was the reciprocal treatment business… But what was significant about the writings I found… was they actually sounded now more like ISIS.” — Raymond Ibrahim ([03:30]).

The Book: “The Two Swords of Christ” ([07:30]–[11:02])

• Scope & Thesis:

  • Chronicles 500 years of war between Islam and Christian warrior monks—the Templars and Hospitallers.
  • Utilizes the double-meaning of “the Two Swords”: the biblical passage in Luke (spiritual and temporal conflict) and the two military orders themselves.
  • Charts history from the end of the First Crusade (1099) to the fall of Malta to Napoleon (~1800).
  • Emphasizes the medieval fusion of intense piety with military ferocity among Christian warriors.

• Quote:

  • “…it’s called the Two Swords of Christ because I’m referencing the verse in Luke where Christ tells his disciples, ‘…sell your garments and buy a sword.’… For a lot of pre-modern… Christians … what it meant is that … there’s two forms of swords, one to fight spiritual forces… [and] the other … to fight secular, physical, corporeal forces, evil humans.” — Raymond Ibrahim ([09:10])

Key Historical Insights

Distinction Between the Orders ([11:02]–[14:27])

• Origins and Missions:

  • Hospitallers originated as a charitable hospice; Templars were the first to militarize.
  • Hospitallers gradually shifted to a militant role by the 1170s, both ultimately became elite combatants in the Holy Land.

• Quote:

  • “Their vows were based on serving our lords, the sick. … Before long, they realized… the best way to serve these pilgrims was … preemptively put a stop to [attacks] by actually protecting them and even going on the offensive.” — Ibrahim ([13:05])

Role in the Defense of the Holy Land ([14:27]–[16:08])

• After Jerusalem’s Fall:
  • Following the loss of Jerusalem (1187), Templars and Hospitallers became the main defense of remaining Christian enclaves.
  • Maintained a network of castles; without them “the Holy Land would have been lost much, much earlier.”

Popular and Modern Depictions ([16:08]–[17:53])

• Media Myths:

  • Templars often unfairly lampooned (e.g., Ridley Scott’s “Kingdom of Heaven”).
  • Ibrahim notes original sources highlight their heroism, which contrasts modern portrayals.

• Quote:

  • “…he [Reynold] gives this really heroic speech and basically says, I won’t do what you want. And that’s when he [Saladin] cuts his head off. That’s more heroic than the… buffoonery…” — Ibrahim ([17:13])

The Orders Post-Crusades and in the Mediterranean ([23:04]–[24:31])

• Relocation to Rhodes and later Malta after ejection from the Holy Land.
• Transformation into a naval force and persistent antagonists against Ottoman expansion.

Source Material & Muslim Perspectives ([18:19]–[19:44])

• Primary sources: Latin, Old French, Arabic, “a little bit of Greek.”

• Muslim chroniclers often viewed the Templars and Hospitallers with unique “be grudging respect”—as their “chief thorn” and unlike other Christian monks, could not be bought off.

• Quote:

  • “In many ways, they’re the ones who most underscore how they feared the Templars and the Hospitallers… a kind of nod of respect.” — Ibrahim ([19:06])

Broader Historical Contexts ([19:44]–[22:46])

• The Middle East as originally a heartland of Greco-Roman Christianity until the 7th-century Islamic conquests.
• The massive demographic and religious transformation of the region is often ignored in modern narratives.

Relations with Byzantium ([21:57]–[22:46])

• Templars and Hospitallers were Catholic, not closely tied to Byzantium, and had little involvement in events like the Fourth Crusade.

The Barbary Slave Trade and the Orders’ Later Role ([30:06]–[36:34])

• The Hospitallers fought Ottoman and Barbary slavers, defending Europe from Islamic piracy.

• Slavery under Muslim empires included an ideological component (“infidel” enslavement) and was often more brutal than the transatlantic trade.

• Quote:

  • “The Muslim enslavement of the Europeans had an ideological component… always treated in very, very sadistic ways…” — Ibrahim ([35:08])

Modern Relevance of Historical Patterns ([41:57]–[51:17])

Selective Attention to Atrocities

• Contrasting Western perceptions of Islam and Israel, and different standards for “genocide” or “occupation.”

• Media and academia’s double standards regarding modern Islamic violence and occupation.

• Quote:

  • “When you look at so-called genocide, atrocity, occupation… it’s really shocking.” — Hanson ([43:09])

Demographic Transition and Political Influence

• Immigration from the Middle East is changing Western societies’ perceptions and politics.

• Petrodollars fund university programs, influencing academic analysis of the Middle East.

• Quote:

  • “Most of the Middle East programs in the elite schools are funded by Middle East petrodollars, mostly from Qatar.” — Hanson ([45:03])

The Janissaries and Cultural Memory ([37:43]–[39:33])

• The Janissary system as a “psychological weapon”: white European Christian children indoctrinated into elite Ottoman Islamic troops and used against their own people.
• Modern academia often sanitizes this “as if getting a scholarship to Harvard.”

Western Self-Criticism & Demographic Shifts ([59:43]–[62:09])

• The West’s unique tradition of self-critique is being weaponized into “self-loathing.”

• Western societies remain the only self-critical civilizations, but risk losing their core identity if assimilation is rejected in favor of multiculturalism.

• Quote:

  • “There’s a fine line between healthy self-criticism… and self-loathing or what a great scholar called oikophobia.” — Hanson ([61:32])

Notable Quotes and Moments

• On Christian-Muslim Conflict’s Continuity:

  • “What’s happening today… is not its own particular local new development. … 14 centuries between Islam and the West when Israel didn’t exist and Islam was doing the same exact thing.” — Ibrahim ([47:43])

• On Left-Islamist Alliances:

  • “When you dig into it, you find out, well, who are the two primary culprits behind… attacks on churches? One, it said Islamists and two, leftists. So you find they’re always in bed together, even though on the surface they’re so different.” — Ibrahim ([48:47])

• On Assimilation and Multiculturalism:

  • “We have done a very poor job of saying to immigrants, you’re welcome, but you must speak our language, … uphold our culture… integrate within it.” — Hanson ([62:09])

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Origins of Ibrahim’s work: [00:59]–[04:45]
• Overview of “Two Swords of Christ”: [07:43]–[11:02]
• Distinction between Templars & Hospitallers: [11:02]–[14:27]
• Templars/Hospitallers after Crusades, in Rhodes/Malta: [23:04]–[24:31]
• Slavery and Barbary pirates: [30:06]–[36:34]
• Modern-day relevance and academic double standards: [41:57]–[45:57]
• Western identity, assimilation, and multiculturalism: [59:43]–[62:09]

Closing Section: Present and Future

• Book Availability and Publisher:
  • “The Two Swords of Christ” published by Bombardier/Post Hill.
  • Available on Amazon or signed copies via raymondibrahim.com.
  • “It’s got…color pictures in there.” — Ibrahim ([53:26])
• Ibrahim’s Next Project:
  • Considering a book on “lessons for today from this long history,” reclaiming “muscular Christianity.” ([67:01])

Recurring Themes and Takeaways

• The tension between spiritual ideals and martial necessity in Christian history.
• Persistent distortions of Crusader and Islamic histories in modern media and academia.
• The cyclical nature of civilizational conflict—and its continued relevance.
• The West’s unique self-criticism now exposes it to internal and external challenges.
• Assimilation as a core Western ideal is under threat by multiculturalist paradigms.

This episode is essential listening for anyone seeking to understand the true historical complexities behind the Crusades, the shifting dynamics of Western and Islamic worlds, and their echoes in today’s social and political landscapes.