When Migrants Wanted To Be Americans | Victor Davis Hanson & Max Nikias

Summary

Podcast Summary: When Migrants Wanted To Be Americans

Podcast: Victor Davis Hanson: In His Own Words
Host: Victor Davis Hanson | The Daily Signal
Guest: Dr. C.L. Max Nikias, President Emeritus of USC
Date: March 13, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode features a profound interview between Victor Davis Hanson, historian and classicist, and Dr. C.L. Max Nikias, former President of the University of Southern California and author of American Trojan. Their conversation deeply intertwines personal immigrant narratives, the shifting ethos around American immigration, Nikias’s journey from war-torn Cyprus to the pinnacle of American academia, and the organizational transformation of USC under his leadership. It is also a meditation on the meaning of American identity, assimilation, gratitude, and the obligations of citizenship—both for immigrants and institutions.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Early Life: A Story of Upheaval and Determination

• Cyprus Childhood: Nikias grew up in a small Cypriot village without electricity or running water in the 1950s, then moved to Famagusta as his father worked as a carpenter in booming post-independence Cyprus.
• British Rule and Identity: Before 1960, Cypriots were British subjects with British passports; all lost that status after independence (05:14–05:52).
• Political Turmoil in Greece:
  • Nikias’s undergraduate years in Athens were marked by dictatorship and political unrest, including the 1973 student rebellion at the Athens Polytechnic (06:49–10:17).
  • He and Hanson reminisced about witnessing tanks crushing student protests:

    “We were dumb young kids…my wife and me, they were just running for our lives.” — Nikias (09:37–10:13) “The tank entered the caboose.” — Nikias (10:13)

2. Cypriot Tragedy and Displacement

• Invasion of Cyprus (1974):
  • Following a coup, Turkey invaded, occupying 40% of the island and displacing one third of the Greek Cypriot population, including Nikias’s family (12:16–14:43).
  • Forced migration and lasting demographic changes were recounted with poignancy.
  • Nikias reflected:

    “We never, ever used the word ‘refugee’ to identify ourselves...We did not want any sympathy...because we lost everything.” — Nikias (15:21–16:06)

3. Immigration to America: Assimilation and Opportunity

• Arrival in the U.S.: Nikias came to America in 1975 with $1,500 saved as a London hotel receptionist, determined to make it without appealing to pity or victimhood (16:14–16:18).
• Academic Excellence:
  • He attended SUNY Buffalo for graduate school thanks to U.S. recognition of his elite Greek engineering training (17:05–18:35).
  • Rigorous H1B and green card process:

    “It has to be an alien who has the merit and ability to perform services of an exceptional nature and not displace an American equally qualified for that position.” — Nikias (18:49–20:13)

• Path to Citizenship:
  • Nikias and his wife worked diligently to pass their citizenship test, quizzing each other for months over dinner.
  • Stories from their citizenship interviews convey the seriousness and pride of their transition (20:27–21:52):

    "The day that my wife and I became American citizens, it was the happiest day of our lives...It was a second homecoming for both of us." — Nikias (21:59–22:55)

• Narrative Shift in Immigrant Attitude:
  • Hanson contrasts Nikias’s gratitude and drive to assimilate with more recent attitudes among immigrants, suggesting a loss of the “immigrant covenant” of gratitude and contribution (22:55–24:18).

4. The Immigrant Covenant: Gratitude and Giving Back

• Assimilation vs. Victimhood:
  • Both agree that successful American immigration requires hard work, gratitude, and an obligation to return value to the nation (24:18–25:43):

    “The covenant is that America is opportunity...But you also have to express the gratitude and you have to give back. That’s an obligation.” — Nikias (24:02–24:29)

  • Nikias viewed his decades of service to the U.S. Navy and the advancement of American education as his “giving back.”

5. USC’s Transformation under Nikias

• Rising Through Academia:
  • Recruited by USC as a full professor, Nikias quickly rose through the ranks, ultimately serving as provost and then president (27:48–28:10).
  • Brought substantial research funding, students, and accolades — seen as part of a broader shift transforming USC’s reputation from “party school” to top-tier university (33:04–36:14).
• Strategic Vision:
  • Focused on improving academic reputation by recruiting talent, raising funds, and building infrastructure (38:00–39:47).
  • Raised $7 billion in eight years, doubling the financial aid pool and making education accessible to a broader student base (40:12–40:58; 39:54).
• Physical and Community Revitalization:
  • Oversaw the construction of a $640 million university village, transformed campus safety with security programs, invested in the local community, and improved town–gown relations (41:28–44:16):

    “USC always reached out, welcomed them with open arms…all these neighborhood programs made a big difference.” — Nikias (44:34)

• Dramatic Improvement in Rankings:
  • USC entered the Top 20 in Wall Street Journal rankings (“Stanford, Caltech, USC,” surpassing UCLA and Berkeley) (36:13–36:20).

6. USC’s MeToo Reckoning & Nikias’s Resignation

• The Dr. Tyndall Scandal:
  • Detailed timeline: Nikias first learned of Tyndall's misbehavior in late 2017; Tyndall was no longer practicing at USC. When allegations of sexual misconduct emerged during the #MeToo movement, a vocal minority on the faculty and media targeted Nikias despite multiple investigations clearing him of wrongdoing (46:42–55:27).
  • Nikias describes political pressure from activist faculty as a contributing factor:

    “It was the same activist, radical faculty...they wanted me to take a stand against President Trump. I said, no...They got angry and never forgave me.” — Nikias (51:43)

  • Federal and independent investigations confirmed he was not culpable (51:43–53:08).
  • Nikias ultimately chose to step down as president in the summer of 2018, feeling betrayed by the campaign against him despite the renaissance he oversaw at USC (55:27–55:55).

7. Reflection on Academia and Cancel Culture

• Academic Activism & Institutional Costs:
  • Hanson discusses broader cancel culture trends, referencing his own censure attempts at Stanford for conservative views (57:39–59:38).
  • Nikias notes that faculty email expressions after layoffs (“We miss you, Max”) reveal late recognition of his leadership.
• USC’s Financial Troubles Post-Nikias:
  • Since his departure, USC has experienced three presidencies in seven years and significant financial strain, with layoffs and diminished fundraising (56:12–57:11).

8. Influence & Impact: Notable Collaborations

• David Petraeus:
  • After Petraeus resigned as CIA Director (2012), Nikias recruited him as a visiting professor and valued advisor for student veterans (60:06–63:45):

    “He was the most valuable advisor...for student veterans issues...not only we have the ROTC...we recruited a lot of veteran students.” — Nikias (60:06)

  • Petraeus contributed the book’s eventual title (“You are the American Trojan”) (61:56–62:13).
• Engagement with Donors:
  • Nikias recalls working with philanthropists like Miriam and Sheldon Adelson who supported USC in significant ways (64:49–65:24).

9. Personal Loss and the American Spirit

• Shared Family Stories:
  • Concludes with poignant discussion of personal losses—both interviewers lost beloved family members—underscoring stoic acceptance and perseverance, key immigrant and American virtues (65:51–68:28).
  • Nikias recognizes the character and generosity of Hanson’s late daughter, Susanna, who donated part of her salary to USC programs for underprivileged children.

10. Upbeat Notes on Citizenship and Assimilation

• Optimism for America:
  • Hanson frames Nikias as exemplifying the “hyper-patriotic” American immigrant.

    “He is more American than any of us...he represents the best things for us.” — Hanson (69:54–70:41)

  • Calls for a return to a culture of gratitude, assimilation, and civic duty.

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On Refusing Victimhood:

  "We never, ever used the word refugee to identify ourselves...We did not want any sympathy...because we lost everything."
  — Max Nikias ([15:21])

• On Becoming American:

  "The day that my wife and I became American citizens, it was the happiest day of our lives...It was a second homecoming for both of us."
  — Max Nikias ([21:59])

• On the Immigrant Covenant:

  "The covenant is that America is opportunity...you also have to express the gratitude and you have to give back. That's an obligation."
  — Max Nikias ([24:02])

• On the Changing Immigration Ethos:

  “Something changed in the Obama era...from what you and millions like you, that attitude and mentality.”
  — Victor Davis Hanson ([23:40])

• On University Rankings:

  "USC was ranked number 15...Stanford, Caltech, USC. UC Berkeley and UCLA were not in the top 20."
  — Max Nikias ([36:13])

• On Institutional Betrayal:

  "I felt it was really a betrayal to be made the target. And so I decided...to remove myself as president."
  — Max Nikias ([55:27])

• On Giving Back:

  "With all the work that I have done for the United States Navy...making possible education for students...I felt that was my giving back to America."
  — Max Nikias ([25:07])

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Key Timestamps and Segments

• Polytechnic Rebellion and Turkish Invasion: [06:49]–[14:43]
• Immigration to America and Assimilation: [15:21]–[24:18]
• Rise through Academia & USC Transformation: [27:34]–[40:58]
• Physical Transformation and Community Outreach at USC: [41:28]–[44:34]
• Dr. Tyndall/MeToo Controversy and Aftermath: [46:42]–[57:11]
• Petraeus and Veteran Initiatives: [60:06]–[63:45]
• Personal & Family Reflections: [65:51]–[68:28]
• Optimism and Closing Thoughts: [69:54]–[70:41]

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Memorable Moments

• Nikias and Hanson realize they likely stood mere meters apart during the 1973 Athens Polytechnic uprising ([09:48]).
• Humorous memory: Greek censors coloring over Playboy magazine covers with black marker to meet public decency standards ([11:14]).
• Nikias’s serious approach to U.S. citizenship, correcting misconceptions of a U.S. immigration officer ([20:27]).
• Rebuilding USC’s image from party school to world-class university, surpassing old rivals ([33:04]–[36:14]).
• The “bubble” of security initiatives transforming student safety around USC ([42:37]).

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Conclusion

This rich episode offers a passionate affirmation of the American immigrant ideal—working hard, assimilating, expressing gratitude, and giving back. Dr. Nikias’s journey from Cyprus to the presidency of USC, and ultimately his principled departure, are representative of both the promise and peril facing American institutions in a polarized era. The conversation between two classicists who lived history in turbulent 1970s Athens grounds debates about citizenship, identity, and assimilation in both personal experience and broad historical perspective.

For listeners interested in the role of immigrants in making “America the beautiful,” the resurgence—and struggles—of elite institutions, and the enduring importance of character and citizenship, this episode is essential.

Transcript

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[Max Nikias]

screen my undergraduate studies at the Polytechnico Bathes study engineering. I went in 1972 and Greece was under military dictatorship. 73 There was another coup where Ioannidis took over. But the event that occurred first and which I experienced as a student is that there was a rebellion of the Polytechnic students against the military junta and they occupied the campus.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

I just remember we were walking down and I had a colleague who had hair to his shoulders and a Greek policeman came up and he said to us, normally I'd cut your hair off on the street. I'm needed down at the Polytechnic. And so then we kind of followed him because we didn't know if we could get there or not.

[Max Nikias]

With all the work that I have done for the United States Navy and the US Government, technical work, which was a big part of it was. It was fully classified and also making possible giving the gift of education to students from all walks of life. Years as dean, provost and president, and training the talent that American exceptionalism needs for technological innovation, I felt that was my giving back to America.

[Narrator/Intro Voice]

Since the founding of America 250 years ago, many things have changed, but some things never do. The commitment of husband and wife, the importance of passing along our values to our children, the faithfulness of God. Some wonder how we can ensure America will continue to thrive as long as we keep first things first. We've only just begun.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

America the beautiful Vicar Davis Hant in his own words. This is the first time since I came back that I'm doing our solo interviews. And I'm very honored that we have an author of a new book, American Trojan. You can see it here by cl. But we know him as Max Nikias and he's done so many things, but he's best known as a former president of usc. That really sparked a renaissance on that campus. But he's been a professor of engineering, he's been a provost, dean, president, almost everything. But we're going to talk to him today about his life, because immigration is really on people's minds, and we confuse and conflate legal with illegal. And Max's life is pretty much the American success story of somebody who came from the island of Cyprus, very poor. And I thought, Max, maybe we could introduce you by telling us a little bit where you grew up and what were the events that led you to come to America.

[Max Nikias]

Thank you, Victor. Thank you for having me on your podcast. Thank you. It's truly a pleasure and a privilege.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

Thank you.

[Max Nikias]

We've known each other for a very long time, but it's very special for me now being on your podcast for the first time.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

Thank you.

[Max Nikias]

I grew up on the island of Cyprus. Actually. I was born and raised in a very small village. I don't think there were more than 1,000 people inhabitants on the village. And in the 1950s, the village has no electricity and no running water. The first 10 years of my life. But don't take me wrong, it was a very comfortable life for a kid. My parents always look. But When I was 10 years old, my father moved the family to the nearby town of Famagusta. And at that time, Cyprus became an independent republic in 1960. And there was a lot of construction in Famagusta because it was a beach city and that was going to attract a lot of tourists. It was a beautiful Mediterranean seashore. And my father was a carpenter, so he was doing all the carpentry work for the hotels under construction. So that's why.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

Were you a British subject or recipient citizens when you were. I don't know if the word is occupied, but when you were under the control of the British, what was the legal status of Greeks?

[Max Nikias]

The legal status is that we were under the British rule. And you were issued a British passport. People received their Cyprus passport after Cyprus became an independent republic in 1960.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

I see.

[Max Nikias]

So did they.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

Did you retain your British citizenship?

[Max Nikias]

No. No. Nobody did.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

Nobody did. I thought so.

[Max Nikias]

Yep.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

But you were in the autobiography, which is fascinating about your study of engineering and mathematics, and you go to Athens. But maybe you could just remind everybody of these historical events. It seems like. No offense, Max, but anywhere you were, there was a revolution taking place. And I think our listeners may remember the. There's two market events in Greek history, modern Greek history. One was the storming of the Polytechnion University on November 17, 1973. Correct. And that was the Papadopoulos governments. It led to the downfall and succession by a more repressive government, even the military dictatorship. And then that puts.

[Sponsor Break Announcer]

Right.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

Yes. And Ioannidis and then you were going to go back to Cyprus and then you found that Cyprus was being invaded by Turkey. So you grew up under the British and then you lived through the autonomous liberation of Cyprus from the British. Then you went to Athens and found yourself in the middle of a revolution. Then you went back to Cyprus and you'd lost your home. Tell us a little bit about that.

[Max Nikias]

Yes, I. As you know, In Greece in 1967, the military Junda took over. They did overthrow democracy, and that was the Papadopoulos junda. Cyprus had a president was Archbishop Makarios, and he was a Republic of Cyprus, a democratic society. However, there were very strong connections between the Cyprus National Guard and the Greek military. And the Cyprus National Guard was staffed by Greek military officers. So that was a connection between Cyprus and Greece at that time. And when I went to Athens to pursue my undergraduate studies at the Polytechnico Battles study engineering, I went in 1972 and Greece was under military dictatorship in 1973, as you correctly pointed out, Victor, there was another coup where Ioannidis took over. He did overthrow the previous Honda and establish his. And he had a submission to intervene with the cyber government. He viewed Archibisher Macarios as a traitor and to overthrow the government of Cyprus. But the event that occurred first, and which I experience as a student, is that there was a rebellion of the polydactnic students against the military junta. And they occupied the campus of the Polytechnic. And the students were demonstrating inside and outside of the campus. And I remember one evening when we were there, it was around November 16, it was a Friday evening with the demonstrations. And then all of a sudden everybody hears the military tanks coming into the cities of Athens.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

I remember it. I was a student there as well.

[Max Nikias]

And you were there, you told me, at the nearby hotel, watching all these events.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

Yeah, we were dumb young kids. I was 19. And everybody said, let's go down and look at.

[Max Nikias]

So here we are, Victor, you and me. What are the chances that in 1973 we were only 3 meters apart from each other?

[Victor Davis Hanson]

I was in a lot safer position,

[Max Nikias]

in a much safer position, because when the tags were running, my wife and me, they were just running for our lives. And anyway, and they crushed.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

I saw the gate. They crashed it back down.

[Max Nikias]

They crushed the gate. The tank entered the caboose.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

Was that a myth that you remember, in Tiananmen Square, where the Chinese dissident was run over the tank, he survived. But I remember at the time, I can't remember that everybody was yelling at Us and said this guy stood up to the tanks and they ran over him, but he survived. Was that a myth and created.

[Max Nikias]

Yeah, it was a little bit of a myth. I think people talk about the people who died at that event, but I think there, there was some difficulty to document. Okay, give us the names who actually died.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

Yeah, I just remember we were walking. We were walking down there and I had a colleague who had hair to his shoulders and a police, A Greek policeman came up and he's. And he said to us in broken English and. Or broken Greek, he said, normally I'd cut your hair off on the street, but I'm needed down at the polytechnic. And so then we kind of followed him because we didn't know if we could get there or not. And then I remember walking down the street and there was a kiosk and a Greek entrepreneur in it. He said one of the guys looked at his Playboy magazine and he had taken, under orders, he had taken black marks a lot and marked. He made bikini Genies on all the girls with black ink. And so he said, I don't want this. Or my friend said, we don't want these. So I don't think. I just remember that one day I was there 73, and all the language was in Katharevisa on the elevators.

[Max Nikias]

Yes.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

I could actually read it because it was more like Byzantine.

[Max Nikias]

Exactly. It was like Byzantine Greek.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

Yes, it was. And then all of a sudden, in 74, right before I left, they had had demonic key everywhere. Yeah. Yes. So then you, you were in that revolution and then you went back and then what happened?

[Max Nikias]

The following summer of 74, there was a coup attempt to overthrow macarios in Cyprus, where the instigator was the dictator of Grecio Andidis.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

Yes.

[Max Nikias]

And unfortunately, unfortunately, that gave the excuse that Turkey was looking for a very long time to invade the island. And there was a military invasion of the island by Turkey. Of course, the excuse they used was to protect the Turkish Cypriot minority, which was the 18% of the population. But they invaded and over a period of four weeks, they occupied the northern part of Cyprus, 40% of the island. And then they forced one third of the Greek Cyprio population that was living in the north, including my family and my wife's family. They forced them to move south as refugees.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

I notice it's still highly controversial. Did anybody ever find the rough number of Greeks that were killed or missing?

[Max Nikias]

To this day there are about 3,000 missing that they found only very few in the graves. And they did the DNA testing, thanks to some very old now Turkish Cypriots that after all the 50 years, they were able to speak up and say, yes, atrocities took place there, and if you go there, you will find their graves. But not everybody.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

And today the population is. What is the demographics? Is it almost 40% Turkish or.

[Max Nikias]

No, no, it's the population of the island now. It's about 1 million. And I would say 200, 220,000 Turkish or Turkish Cypriots, and then the rest are Greek Cypriots. Of course, the other thing that Turkey has done over the last 50 years, they moved the Turks from Anatolia to the. Occupy the northern part just to change the demographics.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

Yes, I remember.

[Max Nikias]

So in our homes in the village and also in Famakusta and also my wife's home, there are Turkish families from Anatolia who live there.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

It's very different. We all talk about the Palestinians, Palestinians. And I remember Edward Said would dangle his keys and say, I need. But nobody ever talks about the refugees. I mean, there was no. There was no violent movement. I mean, there was no violence. There was no car bombing. It was just lost in the historical record. And there was no violence on the

[Max Nikias]

part of the country. And I have to say, Victor, full disclosure for the first time, what I would like to share with you is that, and I speak for my wife when I say that coming to America 47 years ago, we never, ever used the word refugee to identify ourselves. We did not want anybody to say that introducing us in any setting. And because honestly, we wanted to make it on our own. We came here with determination, to work very hard, and we did not want any sympathy expressed or be seen as victims, for example, because we lost everything.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

How much money? What was your net worth in property and cash and things when you arrived with your wife?

[Max Nikias]

Fifteen hundred dollars in my pocket. Cash.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

That was it. That was your total.

[Max Nikias]

And that's the money I was saving working as a receptionist at a hotel in London.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

So then you were a graduate student at the University of Buffalo, right?

[Max Nikias]

Yes. Yeah. SUNY Buffalo, offer me a state university. And that was our ticket coming to America.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

Did you find that the engineering training that you had had at Athens made you more. It's always. I know that Greek education is very rigid and regimented, but it's very exacting. Did you find that when you came to the United States, despite. Were you able to speak English pretty well by that point?

[Max Nikias]

No. I mean, I would speak English, but not as good as I do today. But I worked on it. You know, this is one part that you really have to work on it.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

But that was very hard to compete with American graduate students.

[Max Nikias]

Yeah. But if you have the drive, if you have the determination, if you really work hard. And that's what I did. That's exactly what I did. And I loved every minute of it.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

Were you able to go at this time after you had left Cyprus? How many years was it until you returned to Cyprus?

[Max Nikias]

Oh, we did go back because my parents were living there, so we felt an obligation to go and see them. So we would visit them once every few years, just for the summer. But it was always a very short visit because I was always so busy. I was always so busy. And just to say that the reputation the Polytechnic of Athens had of their graduates because, as you know, it's like the MIT of Greece, the selective.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

Yeah, it is.

[Max Nikias]

It's a very selective school. So the graduates of the Polytechnic who came to the United States for graduate studies, they all had excellent reputation that they were excellent students. So. And that's what got me the scholarship from Buffalo is because they saw I was a graduate of the Polydactyl.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

Yeah.

[Max Nikias]

Everybody I've met advisor felt I'm no risk to him offering me a scholarship.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

And then you, you went to. Correct me if I'm wrong. University of Connecticut.

[Max Nikias]

University of Connecticut. I started my career as an assistant professor and I think the readers are going to find amusing my. The story I have how I ended up getting my H1B visa. It was very different back then and I will never forget clearly stated it has to be an alien who has the merit and ability to perform services of an exceptional nature and not displace an American equally qualified for that position. So back then, for me to get that offer, the University of Connecticut did a national search for the position. They had to thoroughly document over a period of nine months all the applicants who applied for that position. Who were the qualified ones who were interviewed for the position, why was I selected for the position? And all that paperwork was submitted to the Hartford Immigration in Connecticut seems like a different world. And you also described that there was no lottery. There was none of what you see now.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

And then your book, you described studying for the citizenship test. That seems.

[Max Nikias]

Yes.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

I mean that was absolutely. Not now they wouldn't. It just. I can't believe that we had such standards because as we have none now

[Max Nikias]

as far as citizenship, actually my wife and I took it so seriously that we're quizzing each other, having dinner together for several months and when she went for her. That's another story I describe in the book. Niki went in there first, and when she came out, I said, how did it go? She says, all the questions were about the civil war. And when I went in there, the immigration officer looked at me and said, what are the responsibilities of the good citizen? So I began telling her, when I went up to number five, she says, that's enough. But so in Greece, she says, you have a communist government, don't you? And I said, no, ma', am, that's not true. You're referring to Papadreu, who is a socialist, but it's a parliamentary democracy and all that. She was listening. And then she says, yeah, but in Cyprus you do have a communist government. I said, no, ma', am, I'm afraid you're not very well informed. And then I went into explaining the constitution of the Republic of Cyprus and what are the similarities and differences with our American Constitution. And before even I finish, he says, Dr. Nikias, that's enough. You passed.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

Yeah, I wish we had a modicum of that today, too.

[Max Nikias]

But I want to say, Victor, I want to say the day that my wife and I became American citizens, it was the happiest day of our lives. Because finally we both felt we belonged somewhere outside of Cyprus. Because when we came to America, we didn't come to remain Cypriots, we came to become Americans. And it didn't happen overnight. It was a transition. But by the time we became citizens, which was exactly 10 years from the date we arrived in the United States, the day we became citizens, we belonged somewhere. It was a second homecoming for both of us.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

I think that's what's so sad, because I grew up in this farming area with the Armenian. We were the third largest concentration of Armenians in the United States, in the Fresno area. And then we had a lot of Sikhs. The first iteration of Sikh migration came here for farming. And we had a lot of. Kingsburg, California, was a Swedish town where my great grandfather and grandfather came. But all of these people mirrored what you're talking about. They were so happy to be here. They were so proud of their culture, but they were Americans first. And then I don't know what happened. I know what happened, but I don't know the exact. It seemed like a series of Democratic. Jimmy Carter. Bill Clinton was not so much. I reread the 92 and 96 Democratic convention, and he talked about legal only immigration in America, but something in the Obama era. And we've got from what you and millions like you, that attitude and mentality. You wanted so much to be an

[Max Nikias]

American, a hyper American also. There is, you know, the immigrant covenant. The covenant is that America is opportunity. You will not hear it from me. You will not find it anywhere else in the world.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

So if you're in Greece, is it like Europe? When you want to succeed, people try to locate you by your parents, your income, your property. More so than here.

[Max Nikias]

Different? Yes, it's different. It's whom you know and this and that. It's different. But also the covenant for an American immigrant is that, yes, you come here, you work hard, this country welcome you with open arms, but you also have to express the gratitude and you have to give back. That's an obligation. Is gratitude an obligation to give back? And in my case, I feel that with all the work that I have done for the United States Navy and the US Government, technical work, which was a big part of it, was fully classified. And also making possible, giving the gift of education to students from all walks of life, all my years as dean, provost and president, I felt and training the talent that American exceptionalism needs for technological innovation. I felt that was my giving back to America.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

We're talking with Max Nikias and his new book, American Trojan. It's autobiographical journey of a Cypriot that came to the United States with nothing and ended up as the president of USC at its glorious years. And we'll be right back after a word from our supporters and sponsors.

[Sponsor Break Announcer]

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[Victor Davis Hanson]

And we're back with Max. So you get to usc. Give us some time of the timeline. You're a Greek immigrant, you've only been in the country seven or eight years. When you got to USC, it was about.

[Max Nikias]

I got to USC 12 years exactly after I came to the United States.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

And how old were you, if I could ask?

[Max Nikias]

Oh my goodness, I was 30. I was 39 years old when I came.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

Were you associate assistant or what were your.

[Max Nikias]

No, I came as a full professor of electrical engineering.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

Okay.

[Max Nikias]

Yeah.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

How did you go from a full professor? And you're an immigrant, so you're now an American citizen. But how did you go from chair of the department?

[Max Nikias]

No, I never chaired in department.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

So what? Tell us the cursus and norm, how you ended up as a president of this huge university, how quickly you did it.

[Max Nikias]

Right. I refer to it as at some point when you go over to academic leadership, it's like going over to the dark side.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

Yes, everybody always said that as an

[Max Nikias]

academic, but so the first 12 years I was completely delegated in my research, my academic scholarship applications. I was a consultant for the United States Navy. And I have some stories I think a reader will find interesting in the book I published extensively. I was very well funded. At the age of 38, I became fellow of IEEE. That it was a big deal for a very young engineer scholar to get elected as fellow. And then USC noticed me and they came after me and they recruited me. And when I came to USC, I brought with me 12 PhD students. 12, 12. And I had five research grants from the Navy, from the US government, from other DoD outfits, from the National Science Foundation, a number of corporations. Anyway, and we came to usc. And then within a year I get a call from the Dean's office and says, the Dean would like to have lunch with you. He takes me out to lunch downtown at the Jonathan Club and says to me, I have hired a lot of faculty in the school, but nobody surprised me as you did. So I want you to become my number two associate dean for administration and research. And I was very surprised. I didn't expect that. I was only 39, 40 years old at that time. I loved what I was doing in my academic scholarship and cut the long story short, I said I'm willing to try it, but only as associate dean for research for the school and not the administration part. And because I want to continue doing my research and having my students. What did I know that I ended up being 200% busy doing two full time jobs and not one. And I did it for a few years. And then the university had an opportunity. At that time, the Internet became commercialized, as you remember, with the Clinton administration, to Al Gore's credit, when he said, I did the Internet, and everybody was laughing. Actually, what he really did as a young congressman is that he pushed for the legislation to commercialize the Internet. Okay. And he deserves that credit.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

He does, right? Unfortunately, he's never going to live down. I am going to be.

[Max Nikias]

I know, I know. But that was. So that was the big boom of the IT revolution with the Internet. And we had an opportunity in the area of multimedia to bring together the Cinema school, the School of Journalism, Engineering, Music, and compete at the National Science foundation for a national center of excellence to define the future of the Internet.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

Let me ask you a question.

[Max Nikias]

And I led that effort on behalf of the university. Victor. And in 1995, our proposal, where I was a principal investigator, was ranked number one out of 117 submitted to the foundation. And overnight, I found myself as the founding director of a National center of Excellence at usc. At usc. And that's when the president, President Sambal, noticed me for the first time.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

Well, let me ask you, because I'll be a little bit controversial. When I was growing up in the 60s, USC was football. Football. Football dominated everybody. In fact, my neighbor who lived across

[Max Nikias]

the street all the way to the.

[Ryan Reynolds]

This.

[Max Nikias]

Not just.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

Yes, he was. He came out of Salma High School and he babysat us. His dad was a farmer, Fred Gasigian. He was a brilliant athlete and scholar. And he went to usc and he started three. He was a pulling guard for usc. He was an orthopedic surgeon. So. But the point I'm making is that USC did not have the academic reputation as ucla, but it had sort of a party school, sorority, wealthy kids. But you're in the middle of this transition where USC became. And you could measure it by faculty profiles, the increase endowments, gpa, SAT scores, selectivity for admission, all of that. How did. How did. And you were part of this process, that USC at some point was equal or superior to ucla.

[Max Nikias]

And in terms of UCLA and UC Berkeley, when I was president, it did surpass in quality of students, ucla, even when Steve Sambal was president and I was his provost. So I worked very closely. Steve Sambal was a transformative president, my predecessor, which, by the way, another poetic coincidence that I think even the playwrights of antiquity would have been intrigued when I graduated from Buffalo in 1982 with my Ph.D. and my wife with her MBA degree. The new president of the University of Buffalo, a very young president at the age of 42, was Steven Sambo. His signature is on our diploma. If you were to tell me in 82, as a young engineer with a PhD and full of its securities of an immigrant, by the way, you are going to succeed this man as president of a university. But one day I wouldn't have believed you.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

So the renaissance or the change in the public perception started under sample and he became kind of.

[Max Nikias]

And I worked closely with him as dean and of course as provost.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

You were his provost then?

[Max Nikias]

I was his provost. He made me executive vice president. He gave me more authority than any other provost those five years. And when I became president, I just hit the ground running. And I tell the story in the book. By 2016, when the wall Street Journal for the first time came up with their college rankings where they ranked more than 1,000 universities, a very comprehensive ranking formula, USC was ranked number 15 and in the top 20. In the top 20 west of Chicago, there were only three universities.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

Stanford, Caltech and USC.

[Max Nikias]

Stanford, Caltech USC. UCarte and UCLA were not in the top 20.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

It's funny you said that, because I was watching this phenomenon when you were from a distance when you were provost and later president. And I had a lot of Stanford students that, you know, were interns. And it used to be that USC was their safe school.

[Max Nikias]

Right.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

But there were a lot of them who were turned down at usc but got into Stanford. It was almost as selective. And that was a radical transformation. So let me just fast forward. We're going to take a break, Max. I'll be right back, but I want to talk about what were the ingredients that turned this good university into one of the nation's best? And we'll be right back and talking to Max Nikias about his new book, American Trojans, that's published by Encounter Books. Roger Kimball was the editor who had a great affection for this book. And you can get it on Amazon or the major book chains on the Internet. But before I go to the breakmax, what is your website that people could go to?

[Max Nikias]

Oh, they can go. They can go on my website at USC. The President Emeritus. CLMaxnikias USC. Oh, good, they can go there. But the book is available on online bookstores, Amazon, Target, Walmart, Barnes and Noble, and of course on the website of the publisher and Counter Books.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

We'll be right back. And we're back with Max. Max, tell us in this, when you became president, you had this very helpful, wonderful predecessor that you were trying to continue this effort to make USC a world class. And then you did. What were the three or four things that you thought were necessary to do that? Was it faculty or endowment or fund? What were the things that you saw that you could take this university and change its reputation?

[Max Nikias]

Victor, as an academic, you know that in a university environment, the only equity we have is not the size of your endowment. Sure, that helps and we'll talk about it. The only equity we have is our academic reputation. And the academic reputation can be easily determined. And as an engineer, I feel nothing improves unless you measure it, the academic reputation. You can measure it with the quality metrics of your student population and your faculty, the academic scholarship of the faculty. So that's where we focus for the rise of usc, implementing strategies to increase the academic reputation of the university. And to do that, yes, you need the fundraising, you need the resources to fund the ascent, the academic ascent of the university. Without the resources, you will not be able to do it. It's going to be just fireworks and pipe dreams and nothing will get done.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

So for you to do that, you were trying to increase the fact. How much did you raise?

[Max Nikias]

Yes, you have to make education affordable. You want to go after the most talented students, but if you don't offer them scholarships, they are not going to come. They will go somewhere else.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

How much did you increase in your tenure as president? How much were you able to raise?

[Max Nikias]

During my fundraising campaign, we raised $7 billion in eight years. In eight years, I was able to increase the financial aid pool of the university from 180 million that we had when I was provost to 336 million. It was one of the largest in America, higher education. And that's how you make also education affordable. 70% of the students at USC were getting some form of financial aid. They did not pay the full ticket price pursuing their USC education.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

How were you able to in this rivalry, Crosstown rivalry. UCLA was Westwood, beautiful campus, very safe, and you were dealing with the inner city. Watts was nearby. How did. And I'm saying this to our listeners because I went down there in the 60s and 70s to watch football and it was very dangerous. But when I went back, when you were president, what were the projects? Building, transforming the physical. How did you.

[Max Nikias]

We transformed the physical landscape of the campus. And we also, when I was president, built a university village, which is a Gothic revival village that we built. It was a construction project of $640 million. And it changed the face of the university. Just in the village, you can accommodate easily up to 3,000 students in residential colleges. But I also changed the whole landscape, the looks. I even planted more than 2,000 trees on the campus of the university. And I did the same on the health sciences campus, exactly the same. So. And when I was president, with renovations and new buildings, we ended up adding probably 20 different buildings.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

How did you deal with the neighborhood? That changed. So it was not stereotyped as a crime ridden neighborhood and students wouldn't feel safe. That was the reputation of the mess.

[Max Nikias]

I went out of my way working with the city and lapd. It was very, very supportive working with us. So at our own expense, we defined the so called bubble area outside of the campus. From north of Jefferson all the way to the 10 Freeway and west all the way to Normandy. For those who are familiar with the area. You know what we did, Victor? We installed security cameras in the streets because that was the bubble area where most of our students were living. And then I instituted the so called yellow jacket guards that they would at every corner. We had safety guards from 6pm in the afternoon until 6am and USC was paying for that. So if you were a student walking in those streets to go to your apartment, you felt safe. And the last thing we did, and it was very transformative for the bubble area in the evenings from 6pm to 6am we said that the students can use Uber to take them to their apartment and USC will pay for it. They just have to show their ID card. And that changed all of a sudden. Our crime incidents were less than ucla.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

What did you do, though? It seems like when I would visit the campus, the African American community around the campus had transformed from what I remember 30 years earlier or 20, or that they were taking pride in USC or they felt impartial.

[Max Nikias]

Yes, they did. Because USC always welcomed them open, reached out, welcomed them with open arms. We set up programs for the kids in the neighborhoods, for the K to 12 schools. And all these neighborhood programs made a big difference. So even in the riots, if you remember in 1992, that a lot of buildings were burned around the university campus came out of it unscathed. I remember that, yeah, there's always that great respect. And we kept that relationship and it's still going to.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

We're going to end on a happy note because I'm going to ask in a minute all the very amazing people that Max met as president, but you were running this thing and I'm going to ask the controversial part. And all of a sudden MeToo comes and you had this famous, infamous. Well, it's really the More that I've read about it, Max. Dr. Tyndall, I think his name was, wasn't it? So he was your gynecologist. And under the previous president, there had been accusations that he had improperly examined women during gynecological exams. And there had been investigations. And I mean, there were things, as I remember reading the report, that he had had a sloppy office, or there were things that were not hygienic, but these were accusations, and he was charged. And then the MeToo thing happened. So you inherited this situation, but how did it transform that you had the investigation and prior people had known about the problem. But why all of a sudden, during the MeToo, were these small number of faculty blaming you for something that was under investigation?

[Max Nikias]

I know. And by the way, in the book, I give the whole timeline. When did I learn and how I acted? Right away. And I would encourage the readers of the book to go and read it. But let me put a little bit things into perspective here, if you allow me. One is that it's true that Dr. Tyndall was hired even before I came to usc in the 80s. And there were the only when he came to my attention and I heard the name for the first time. And to put things into perspective, keep in mind that USC has more than 1200 doctors. Okay, I heard his name for the first time. It was in December of 2017 when I was told by HR, oh, by the way, the LA Times is asking people about three different doctors. They began asking questions, and then I was like, you don't have to worry about it, because Dr. Tindall was removed three years earlier from medical practice by HR, not because of any physical miscontact, but because of harassment in words. He was making comments in words about certain female students. And those were the allegations back then that they were investigated, at least by people when I was president. And he was removed from medical practice. So I get that briefing. And the reason I get a very short briefing is because giving me the heads up, the LA Times is asking not only about him and about two others. And then in February of 2018, I get a nasty letter from Dr. Tyndall that was sent to me and a number of others at the university, threatening a $20 million lawsuit against a university that he was unfairly removed from medical practice. So I decided that I needed to be briefed because now we have a doctor friend telling us. And I had a briefing, a detailed briefing. And through that briefing, then, as I explained in the book, I decided that we need to brief the Executive Committee, because I could see also we were at the top of the MeToo movement, right?

[Victor Davis Hanson]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Max Nikias]

So as soon as I got the briefing, within two weeks, we briefed the executive committee of the Board of Trustees, and then two weeks later, we briefed the entire board of the Board of Trustees about this case. And then the beginning of May, I get a call from our communications director one evening that says, max, we got all these questions from the LA Times, and they're alleging physical miscontact and sexual assaults.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

And that had not come up in the HR before, hadn't it?

[Sponsor Break Announcer]

No.

[Max Nikias]

And I heard that for the first time. I said, listen, this is serious. We better go public with it right away. We don't want to delay that any further. And then I went through the whole process and I went public as president with that for the first time before even the LA Times wrote any stories. And when this happened, then immediately this small group of faculty made me the target. They used that platform and made me the target. And everybody came after the president. Oh, you knew, and you covered the dub and you did this and that, and all of them were wrong allegations. But I know why they did it, Victor.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

Well, before I get to that, I

[Max Nikias]

allude to it in the book. I don't state that explicitly. Is the same activist, radical faculty that the previous year, they wanted to have a meeting with me unrelated to this incident, and they were demanding that I take a stand against President Trump. And I said, no, we want to remain in neutral environment. It is not the job of a president of the university to take a stand on political issues. I will take a stand on issues that affect higher education or may affect the university, but I'm not going to take a stand or take a shot at the president, or any president, for that matter. And they got angry, and they never forgave me for that.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

But the. The U.S. department of justice then ran an investigation, didn't they? The federal government?

[Max Nikias]

Absolutely. The Office of Civil Rights of the Department of Education.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

And they found no culpability on your part.

[Max Nikias]

Did not implicate me or my predecessor,

[Victor Davis Hanson]

Steve Sambo, for neither one of them.

[Max Nikias]

The university did. They hired the law firm and they did an independent investigation. I was interviewed by them. I was not allowed, naturally, to be present in the Board of Trustees, meaning when the trustees were briefed on the findings. But I do know one thing which I say in the book. When I had a number of trustees after that briefing who came to me and they said, we are not going to let you step down as president, it wasn't your fault.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

Well, it seems that the fact that he had been removed when you were. He wasn't with students when you first were prized.

[Max Nikias]

When I heard he wasn't at USC for three years, when I heard his name for the first time.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

Yeah. And then the other people, administrative capacities, that if anybody. It doesn't seem that anybody knew exactly the extent he was under investigation by hr. Post facto, the government comes in, they find no. And then he. And then he's charged by the DA of Los Angeles County. Is that it?

[Max Nikias]

Yes. Yes, he was. And in his case, unlike other cases, it was moving very slowly to trial.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

The judge, he died before. He was never.

[Max Nikias]

He died of a heart attack before he went to trial, and he was never.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

So he never was convicted.

[Max Nikias]

Well, and it's my understanding that the DA's office and LAPD, they went around and interviewed more than 300 women graduates of us and then at the very end, they narrowed down to 12 to use as witnesses in the trial. And I remember reading, and anybody can correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember reading in the paper. I'm just telling you what I read in the paper, that those 12 witnesses, when in the preliminary hearings, they said that they had never filed a complaint against him at the university. It's only after they read in the LA Times the stories that they realized that's what he did, too.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

Yeah.

[Max Nikias]

But nevertheless, I feel they were brave enough at the end to speak up about.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

Let me just.

[Max Nikias]

They should be commended for that.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

So you. Your board is briefed, and they know what he was accused of. They know that it had transpired over a number of years. They knew that you. When you found out for the first time, his name, HR was handling it. He had not been around students anymore. And then. And then the. Subsequently, the US Department of Civil Justice, Department of Civil Rights investigates, sees no culpability on your part or your predecessor. And then we have this parallel. USC is caught in the middle, like all of America. And this MeToo, you know, it affected every judge. Kavanaugh has been on TV every day, and he's basically doing. He's witnessing the same thing you did. So at some point, you go to the trustees and say, I don't want to put up with this anymore or I can't or. What was your position?

[Max Nikias]

Well, because I was. Yeah, s. I expect explain in the book, because I was made the target. I honestly felt at that moment, because I felt it was really a betrayal to be made the target. And so I decided the best way, probably just to ease things up, is to remove myself as president. So I was the one who went to the board and I said, I would like to transition and step down

[Victor Davis Hanson]

as president since you. So that was in 2018.

[Max Nikias]

That was 2000, the summer of 2018.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

In this subsequent seven years, how many presidents has USC had interim or now

[Max Nikias]

they have the third one.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

Three presidents in seven years. And what is the status of their fundraising and all of that? What's the financial condition?

[Max Nikias]

The university has gone through a serious financial crisis is.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

It's.

[Max Nikias]

It's already known. So what I'm telling you, and I've always been very careful not to comment about usc, but again, you can read in the papers, it went through a very serious financial crisis. They ended up also laying off a lot of people, more than a thousand people. And I just hope for the best. But as I explain in the book, a private university, you do not, with an active research program, you do not break even financially unless you raise serious money from philanthropy.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

Yeah, that's a fact.

[Max Nikias]

Otherwise, you cannot do it.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

Let me just. So what is it, 200 faculty? Out of how many faculty, you have 2,000?

[Max Nikias]

Well, it depends how you want to count, Victor, but it's the tenure faculty is probably close to 2,800. 3,000.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

3,000.

[Max Nikias]

But then they were getting also adjunct professors signing the petitions. But if you add the adjuncts, then it's a much bigger number.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

You know, comparing big things to small,

[Max Nikias]

I can tell you what it was. Never more than the 10%.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

Yes, I always. And I want our listeners to realize how surreal academic academia was, that you have the most successful president in its history that's created this renaissance and made USC an international university. And then 150, 200 faculty in the LA Times, and me, too, can stop it. But I walked into my campus one day and I was told that I had to go before the Faculty Senate with my colleague Neil Ferguson and my colleague Scott Atlas for possible censure. And I said, what did I do wrong? And they said, you were on Tucker Carlson. And he mentioned January 6th was not an insurrection, and you didn't correct him. And so the next thing I found out, I had to read the text of every. Every appearance that I was on Tucker from January 6th to March to see if I had ever called it just. And I hadn't. And then Neil Ferguson had to explain basically, that he. He wrote an email to someone, a private email, and it was. He was joking and, and said, well, if they're going to smear conservatives, you should use hardball politics. And Scott, of course was adversaries. There was a voice in the wilderness saying that the lockdowns were going to have negative and all three of us had to go before there the same. I was almost like a Soviet. But it wasn't nearly as. I mean, we were just fellows at Hoover. But they decapitated your presidency and by extension stopped what you and President Sample had done. And then they got what they want and then the university, just to be frank, I'm not quoting you, I'm not insinuating that you agree with me.

[Max Nikias]

Many, many faculty. I had many, many faculty after the layoffs and all that, that all of a sudden I started getting emails. Oh, we miss you, Max.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

Well, it was like USC committed slow motion, not slow motion suicide. Let me just finish though, on a happy note. During President you met a lot of interesting people. One was you develop relationship with David Petraeus.

[Max Nikias]

Yes, David Petraeus. I met him when he was a CIA director. And after he stepped down and left the government, I reached out to him and I said, general, I would love to have you as a professor at usc. And we did work out our arrangement, which of course was endorsed by the proper faculty committee. And he spent a certain number of weeks on campus giving a series of lectures. But I found him to be the most valuable advisor to me as president for student veterans issues. Because at usc, not only we have the ROTC and something very proud of for the university, we never kicked the ROTC off campus, not even in the 60s. And then of course, we participated in the yellow ribbon program matching the government scholarships with USC money. And we recruited a lot of veteran students. These are veterans coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan. So combined we had more than 1200 veteran students.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

What year did you bring him to campus?

[Max Nikias]

I brought him in 2013.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

This is important, I think.

[Max Nikias]

Yeah, in 2013. And he was until 2018 when I was president.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

I think that's really an important date because as you all remember being good friends, full disclosure.

[Max Nikias]

Well, I consider him a good friend.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

And it was.

[Max Nikias]

And he endorsed the book. I mean, he read it.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

That's good.

[Max Nikias]

But it was kind of. I have to Victor, I have to give him credit. He came up with the title. I had a different title at the beginning. And when he read the draft of the book, he says, max, you have the wrong title. You are the American Trojan.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

That's a great. It is a great title. And you know, it was kind of a bold move, Max, because during the surge of 2007 and 8, he was being mentioned as the first five star general possibly since Omar Bradley. And everybody was. He was. I. There was talk that he was going to be a rival to the Obama reelection in 2012.

[Max Nikias]

Yeah, or Hillary the father.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

Yes, or either. He was on top of the world. And then there was the accusation or rumor. I'm not, I don't have any information. But he was made CIA director under Obama and that was one way of bringing your rival, a potential rival in the tent. And then he had these exchanges with a couple of women and the whole thing collapsed. So then he resigned just days after the reelection, as I remember. Obama 2012, few days.

[Max Nikias]

Few days after.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

And then all of a sudden all this adulation turns on a dime to criticism and everything. And yet at that point you step in and see it. Yeah, I mean everybody wanted to be his friend and admirer up until he resigned and no one wanted to. And yet you saw him, you didn't care about that because you saw what his traits were and how valuable he was.

[Max Nikias]

And I could see also the large number of veteran students we had at usc. And I felt I really needed the advice. I needed someone even to give series of lectures to them every year. And it was wonderful. I mean he's the one who lobbied on their behalf that we needed a special lounge at the student center for the veterans, which we did. And I had a kind of ribbon cutting ceremony when we did it and we did it together.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

I met him in Iraq. I was embedded twice in 2006, but I saw him in 2007 and he's a wonderful man. Nobody was more responsible. I had a chapter in the book the Savior Generals about him. He did save the American effort in 2000. Let me. We're going to finish but one more anecdote of all the people you met Max in fundraising or recruit. Who else do you remember that was that people might want to remember? I know you talked to the Adelson, the casino baron, huh?

[Max Nikias]

Yes, I met the Adelsons. They were wonderful, wonderful people. Miriam Adelson, but also her late husband Sheldon and their son came through usc. Very bright kid. Excellent SAT score and grades. He studied mechanical engineering. And that was the opportunity for me to meet them as USC parents. But I really admire both of them. I still admire Miriam. She's wonderful.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

Everybody should.

[Max Nikias]

But I also met you, Victor. How can I not say that?

[Victor Davis Hanson]

Well, we met, I think, I think we were corresponding two decades ago.

[Max Nikias]

You came more than three,

[Victor Davis Hanson]

more than 20 years ago.

[Max Nikias]

And by the way, I'm thrilled to see you. You really look good. I don't know about that, but life goes on, Victor. Keep smiling.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

Yeah.

[Max Nikias]

Western civilization needs you.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

Okay. Well, I said to Laura that I had. Last night was the first time I was on it. You get inspired. Because my mother had cancer very young, and she was in appellate court. And I said to her, this isn't fair. You're 64. You're at the pen. And she said, you play the cards that are dealt with you, and you don't. And then I had a daughter, as you know, that worked at USC who died of leukemia. And Max was very kind. And there's a memorial bench at USC in honor of Susanna Hanson, but she had the same thing. And I said. I thought she would be. And she said, why are you here? I'm going to get better. Don't worry. This happened to me, not you. I'll deal with it. But neither one survived. But it was very inspirational that you have to deal with the cards that are dealt with you, and you try to fight it. And, you know, everybody of us has an Iran to blow at some point.

[Max Nikias]

Probably what I'm going to say is not fair to your other kids, because I met them briefly only once. But having known Susanna, your daughter, I have to tell you, it was a wonderful, wonderful young woman. And she had your brains, Victoria. I don't know if she's a very smart woman. She kind of surprised her work environment. Within six months, they had given her a promotion. And one more thing I don't remember I ever shared with you, and I know you wouldn't mind if I share it here, that we have one program at usc, the Neighborhood Academic Initiative, where we reach out for kids programs and actually preparing them to take the SAT scores and go to college. And we do internal fundraising. Faculty and staff, they contribute for that program every year. And they're all for underprivileged kids. Right. Very challenging socioeconomic conditions. And Susanna was contributing 1.5% of her salary every year to this program, which was one of the highest for employees.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

I didn't know that.

[Max Nikias]

Yes.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

Yeah, I know that she was very happy at usc, and she. Well, it's just one of those things. And any case, we've been talking today, American Trojan is the book. It's published by Encounter Books, and the author is our guest, Max Nikias. And I hope you'll like it. It's a story about an immigrant. It's a story about a person who happened to be at the hot spots of world crisis in Cyprus and Greece. It's a story about the renaissance of USC into a world class university. It's a story that, that should warn us all about zealotry and hysteria and what people, I'll be frank, on the left can do that sort of stop the, I guess you say the pinnacle achievements that made USC this wonderful global university. And then all of a sudden these outside forces sort of committed suicide and the university is going to have to be restructured and rebuilt to achieve its prior prominence. But there's no bitterness in it. There's no anger. There's no, I think you're right. It's an upbeat, upbeat story. Max is not a refugee. He's a citizen, as he keeps reminding us. I am American and he's more American than any of us. So he represents. You know, I'll just say one last thing. When I read this, I, I watched the other day that Elia Kazan, the America Americas wasn't a great movie, but it was an autobiographical about an Anatolian Greek. And it was just, it's just typical of the Greek immigrant community here in the United States that they have been hyper, hyper patriotic Americans. And it's been one of the best things for us. Unfortunately, it's been problematic for Greece because they lost some of their best people to our advantage. But Max, it's been wonderful talking to you and I hope you'll come back again.

[Max Nikias]

Thank you, Victor.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

Thank you everybody. Thank you for tuning in to the Daily Signal. Please like share and subscribe to be notified for more content like this. You can also check out my own [e-mail] and subscribe for exclusive features. In addition,

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