← Victor Davis Hanson: In His Own Words
Victor Davis Hanson: In His Own Words
Women Are 50% of the Population So Why Are We Afraid To Defend Women’s Sports? | Kim Jones
00:45:51
Sports is the “public arena of the difference of the sexes,” so it’s crucial “to assert biological reality,” especially in an era where biological men have been allowed to compete in women’s sports.
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- [00:00]
Kim Jones
We see sports as the public arena of the difference of the sexes. And we've got to assert biological reality. We've got to assert that we have language that differentiates men from women. But it is an exercise in humiliation to compete next to a man who has nowhere near your level of accomplishments. Have the crowd cheer and support in the university, put his name up in lights. And that's a gross insult because in a culture that wants to celebrate the best of what humans can do, we need to celebrate what women are capable of and what men are capable of and recognize that our bodies are developed around entirely different biological constraints. But they are both unbelievably amazing in what they're capable of and recognize them for the individual and separate, unique things that they can do.
- [01:06]
Jack Fowler
Well. Hello, ladies and hello, gentlemen. Welcome to Victor Davis Hansen in his own words. Alas, without Victor Davis Hansen. I'm Jack Fowler, I'm the host. I'm recording today on Washington's birthday. I think I'm still going to call it Washington's birthday. It's Monday the 16th. Victor is slowly recuperating from his surgery. I know some of you folks have seen him already doing one or two returns to the world of podcasting. But in the meanwhile, we're still gonna record some special issues. We're gonna still have some great pinch hitters here. And speaking of pinch hitting and sports, with me today is Kim Jones who is going to inform us and educate us on a truly important issue. And it has to do with women's sports, which I know is an issue of great interest to many folks. Kim is Now I'm gonna read my notes here. Kim, co founder of the Independent Council on Women's Sport. It's known as ICONS and its web address is iconwomen. Excuse me, I c o n W o m e n.com so check that out.
- [02:18]
Kim Jones
There's an S in there.
- [02:20]
Jack Fowler
This is an F. Oh, it's IconsWomen. Yeah, you know, I keep. I'm insufferable. Iconswomen.com so she's the co founder of Icons. It's a network and advocacy comprised of current and former collegiate and professional athletes, their families and their supporters. Its objective is to protect women's sports. They're about fairness. I didn't know fairness exists in America anymore. Kim, I'm going to quote here from the ICONS website. We believe women should thrive and succeed in sport without facing sex based discrimination. We believe women deserve respect and fair competition equal to that of male athletes. And we elevate and empower female athletes on and off the field. Kim knows a thing or two about being an athlete. She was an all american tennis player at Stanford University and she's the mother of four. And are all of them collegiate athletes or have been? Yes. Okay. This lady knows what she's talking about and what she's fighting for. And I have five questions to ask her. I may stumble into a sixth. And we're gonna begin those questions right after these important messages.
- [03:40]
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- [04:09]
Jack Fowler
We are back with Victor Davis Hansen in his own words and pinch hitting for Victor is Kim Jones, the co founder of Icons. Kim, question number one and we're going to get to why you have taken up this cause later, but right now tell us, why do women need. This is a very basic question, but have at it. Why do women need protecting in sports and what is it that ICONS focuses on?
- [04:43]
Kim Jones
So we're very laser focused on making sure that women have a female only category so that there are no men or boys participating in sports with women and girls. That is critical because without a clear, clearly defined category, without knowing what women's sports are, we basically have men's sports and co ed sports and women are 50% of the population and we need to be able to celebrate what women are capable of, you know, independent of men.
- [05:19]
Jack Fowler
So, yeah, so. And how do you, how do you go about addressing this? How does ICONS go about basically what's its main thing that it does to address this?
- [05:33]
Kim Jones
Well, we do a lot of different things, but the advocacy is very much focused on just empowering people to speak up and point out absurdity where they're facing it. So we do a lot of breaking stories letting the public know where policy is allowing men and boys to compete against women and girls. We, we do work with organizations to like national governing bodies, international federations, state legislatures, athletic associations, just to help them craft policy that is going to protect the women in their area or under their leadership. We work with women and families that have faced where female athletes have had to face men in women's sports just to let them know they're not crazy and to give them a path to speak up and where they don't feel comfortable speaking up. We try to be the Voice for them. So there's. And then of course, one of the most important things that we do is we fund legal, so litigation against entities that are discriminating against men, against women by allowing men into women's sports.
- [06:56]
Jack Fowler
We're going to talk about some of that legal action later on. And by the way, this is still all encompassed under question number one. But you were an athlete at Stanford, competing at the top levels nationally and maybe even internationally. And at a time, I guess you could correct me, anything I say in this podcast where I'm wrong, but at a time where, as regards women's sports, there was a very pro women's sport. This was about women. This is about bringing justice to women through title nine. And some you would even see grumbling in some schools, men's, we gotta cancel the men's hockey program because we need to put more money into the women could do, you know, so there was some but real focus for parody for women that then all of a sudden that passion for women athletes kind of disappeared overnight. Would I be wrong in that assessment or not?
- [07:55]
Kim Jones
No. It's interesting. I growing up. So I grew up the daughter of a football player, an all American football player. And we had just my sister and I in the family. And I loved sports. My dad would throw football with me every, you know, for Christmas I got footballs and baseballs, basketball. It was you. And I think sports were just kind of a bonding exercise for my dad and myself. And I think that there are a lot. I mean, women love to play and compete. And I mean, there's a lot of joy in figuring out what you can do and what you're capable of. I had, when I grew up, I never felt less than or disrespected relative to the men that were in sports around me. It was a kind of a unified, like, expression of joy. We love doing this. We love competing. There was a mutual respect and admiration for what each other was capable of, but it wasn't a physical comparison because it was obvious that men and women shouldn't be compared. But there was a participation together to help elevate each other and just a mutual excitement. I had no idea that when I was competing, it was kind of the peak of women's sports as far as participation and respect and investment. I think it's ironic because the increase in women's sports, I mean, I did an enormous amount for women. There's these huge studies on how women participate. Participating in sports are more confident, they do better in school, they are less likely to be in abusive relationships, their health outcomes like cancer to just about anything else really improve. But simultaneously it also improved men in sports because the visibility of sports and the participation and energy and excitement around sports went up. So this, a lot, you know, this bringing in an investment in a whole half of the population into the world of sports gave, you know, an enormous leverage point of excitement and energy and family interest around sports. So, you know, kind of the rising tide floats all boats right Mantra really applied here. And then I did not expect, I remember walking by and seeing all the national titles at Stanford thinking like it's just going to get better from here and not really realizing that, you know, 20 years down the road, 25 years down the road my daughter would be facing men in women's sports. It just, it's a shocking evolution of, you know, of women's sports.
- [10:53]
Jack Fowler
Well, we're going to talk about some of your personal, how things became intimate for you in this current fight. But first I'm going to read a message. We pay our bills around here to our listeners and viewers. The world is getting more unstable and chaotic every day and it seems like everywhere you look there's another cris controversy, conflict or catastrophe. You can't control what happens out there, can you? But you can control how you prepare for it. You can make sure that no matter what happens, you have the basics covered in case one of these disasters reaches your doorstep. You know, things like having enough food to eat when the shelves are empty. And when it comes to my family's food security or our family here at the Victor Davis Hanson in his own words, we trust my Patriot supply. They've helped millions of Americans get prepared and they have over 90,000 five star reviews right now. You can get their best selling 3 month emergency food supply for $100 off. My patriot supply almost never offers a deal like this, so take advantage of it. Go to preparewithvdh.com I'll repeat that. Preparewithvdh.com this food kit gives you 2,000 calories a day, lasts up to 25 years and the best of all, it's $100 off for a limited time. So go to preparewithvdh.com and get yours right now. That's preparewithvdh.com and we thank the good people from my Patriot Supply for sponsoring Victor Davis Hansen in his own words, Kim Jones, co founder of Icon Sports here. Icons, second question to you. Now we've already just mentioned this, but you're a mom of a college swimmer. Something happened that torqued you and I use Torque. Cause I don't want to use other words. And that made you go vocal and public. And this is something that was truly and still to some degree remains in the spotlight. Tell us what happened.
- [13:00]
Kim Jones
Yeah, so my oldest daughter chose swimming. All my four kids chose swimming as the sport that they were excited about. And when she was competing for Yale University, she faced Leah Thomas or William Thomas, the man from Penn who decided after three years on the men's team to transition to the women's team and broke tons of records, won an NCAA title infamously tied for fifth in the 200 free with Riley Gaines at NCAAs. And. Yeah, just watching that unfold and seeing the damage that it did. Well, first of all, what universities were willing to tolerate, women going through, how active they were behind it, and seeing the damage that it did to female athletes. I mean, honestly, just not just the damage, just like the fact that I felt like I was living in a twilight zone in the world had gone upside down. Really. Just I thought, someone has to speak out against this nonsense and we've got to right the ship.
- [14:13]
Jack Fowler
Well, we have a few more. We're going to dig a little deeper into this, especially while the Olympics are happening now. Sports are on people's minds. Well, they always are. March Madness, what Debate, World Series, Super Bowl. What isn't sports on people's minds? Well, I have a few more questions for Kim Jones, and I'm going to ask them when we come back from these important messages. We are back with Victor Davis Hansen, in his own words, pinch hitting is Kim Jones. Kim, by the way, you mentioned Leah Thomas, and to me, one of the three. There's so many examples of these kind of shocking. Wait, this is a guy. We saw the Olympics two years ago, the boxer. I forget what country. Morocco or Algeria. Algeria, yeah. And finally came out, I think, a month ago, within the last few weeks, that he. Yeah, he indeed was a guy. Even though he was boxing in the women's category and denied it at the time. Gosh, there was something else that. Not just.
- [15:20]
Kim Jones
Oh, it's everywhere.
- [15:21]
Jack Fowler
Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's so many examples. Well, let's go back a little bit. Young women competing in college have more than the disadvantage of facing men claiming to be women. There's the school administration. What was that like for your daughter as a member of a team? Not. She wasn't on the team with Lia Thomas competing against him. But what is the kind of pressure that women athletes and you don't. You can talk about your daughter's case. You can talk More generally, Kim, whatever you want, but what do they face from their coaches, from the administration, and from other sources? And then I'd like to separately ask you how you would characterize the NCAA's actions, generally allowing men to compete against women, and also the NCAA action against people who are involved in collegiate women's sports and are critical of it. Like, what kind of hammer is going to come down on them? So what are these other outside pressures, like, to say shut up and comply?
- [16:29]
Kim Jones
Yeah, it's incredibly intense. I mean, the. The women. I mean, I'll speak first about what happened in the Ivy League, but then I think importantly, like, this happens across the country. I mean, it happens in high schools, it happens in colleges, and it's. It happens in professional sports. It's an intense social pressure to just be silent and not speak up for, you know, whenever, wherever you see any kind of injustice. The girls in the Ivy League were specifically pulled into mandatory meetings initially when they first heard about this whole teams were ready to take stands. They were trying to communicate with their athletic directors. They were talking about, you know, standing on the blocks or not showing up for meets. And the universities came in. Specifically, the Ivy League, which is headed by Robin Harris, really just bullied the girls into submission and silence under threats and duress. So they pulled them into mandatory meetings, told them that it was their responsibility to uphold the decisions of their university, that the choice had already been made. This is what was going to happen. They had no. There would be serious repercussions. They were expected to pass any. If media approached them, they were expected clear their responses with the athletic department, with their coaching staff. They were to try to keep their families out of the discussion. And this was an entire very isolating experience. They were also told that they would be responsible for any harm that came upon their campuses because of them speaking out, particularly to their classmates that identified as part of the trans community. That needed to be their first priority. They were told to make Thomas comfortable in locker rooms, on pool decks. So the role of the women in these instances from the universities became it is your job to sacrifice your rights, your privacy, your dignity, your body, your work, everything you've put into this. To sacrifice your desire to speak up in the face of injustice in order to make this man entirely comfortable, taking what is rightfully yours and invading your private spaces, even while you undress. So it was an. And these meetings went on throughout the course of the rest of the season. There was, I would just say, incessant pressure. And this is where there's no one outside of this bubble that you're in, in a university that's willing to stand up and do anything. So it really neutralized anyone that was going to speak up. It put a lot of terror into the girls about what could happen. Social isolation is a huge factor. I now understand that even more after watching what happened at San Jose State with the whole Blair Fleming situation. The girls, well, Brooks Lesser in particular, but the girls that were involved in speaking up, and even the girls involved on the team who weren't speaking up, were bullied, running out of classes, in tears, had to leave campus. The coach that spoke up actually faced a gunshot in her. So the intimidation factors are giant. And it becomes this lifetime of dedication to trying to be the best that you can at something where you have achieved a level. Like my daughter in swimming, had competed in races against Missy Franklin and Simone Manuel, like the very best in the world at what they do. And it is an honor and a privilege to measure what you're capable of next to those that have achieved that level of. Of greatness. Right. But it is an entire. An exercise in humiliation to compete next to a man who has nowhere near your level of accomplishments. Have the crowd cheer and support and the university put his name up in lights and up on record boards and give him awards when he's walking around saying, I'm so much slower. I'm a pathetically weak person relative to what I was, is. It's comparing, you know, the amazing accomplishments of female athletes not just to a male standard or a weak male standard or a male standard that couldn't measure up against other men, but to an intentionally hindered male standard and equating a woman to essentially a, you know, hamstrung man. And that's a gross insult because in a culture that wants to celebrate the best of what humans can do, we need to celebrate what women are capable of and what men are capable of and recognize that our bodies are developed around entirely different biological constraints. But they are both unbelievably amazing in what they're capable of and recognize them for the individual and separate, unique things
- [21:58]
Jack Fowler
that they can do outside of the public square, which you have taken to. To seek justice and fairness. Was there ever an effort, as a parent, as your. You know, for your daughter in this situation or other parents, to where do you appeal to, like, judicial, Judicially, within the college system? So I'm trying to get it like the ncaa. Where was it worse than the Ivy League sports leadership? Was it more doctrinaire and ideological? How did the NCAA act during this period?
- [22:35]
Kim Jones
Oh, terribly. But I actually would like to back up a little bit because I think one of the things that was Surpri, I guess, and I still wrestle with this, fighting back on this. A lot of people say, like, why aren't. Why are the women participating? What are they doing? Well, it feels like a catch 20 because you've dedicated your life, you want to be a strong, empowered person to say what's right and do what's right. But you have, like in any organization, there's a chain of command, right? You place yourself, you trust your coach, you trust the leadership of the overseeing body, whether it's a governing body determining the rules. You trust the ncaa, you trust. There's all of these layers that are supposed to be in place to make sure that sport is fair, to do drug testing, to make sure that no one is being abused. And there's paths to follow for these complaints when that whole system is complacent in just eradicating all of the integrity in sport that feels like there's nowhere to turn. And when the public isn't speaking up, you're on your own on an island. So it is a difficult and intimidating place to be, especially for young women. So in general, you know, we trust our coaches, voices. We trust. That's how you become good at sport, right? Is by being coachable, listening, understanding, like, here's the framework in which you have to be successful and you have to figure out how to navigate through that. So it is difficult to stand up. And we are placing the burden of standing up on young Girls, largely ages 14 to 19 years old, teenagers. And we've got to. And they're doing a good job. I have to say, like, they are standing up. They are saying no. They're trying to figure out paths to av, to advocate for themselves. But we do need the men in sports to say, stop the nonsense. We need fathers, we need coaches. We need people who are in positions of power and leadership to be willing to call it out and not say, well, if the. A young girl doesn't mind, then, you know, or she's not brave enough to speak out, why should I? And so it's. It's going to take a collective change in our psyche to say we are refusing to live underneath an umbrella of fear. We're just going to say what the truth is. We're going to speak up. We're not going to let it happen. And that collective voice is when we're going to have achieved a cultural shift where we are not willing to be governed by someone telling us or calling us names for an absurdity.
- [25:27]
Jack Fowler
I mean, I'm the father of a NCAA Division 1 athlete. I married a college athlete. That was before there was an ncaa. So I was the busboy at the last supper also. But. So I care passionately about these things, but also understand, no matter whatever the crisis is, we'll call this a crisis, a cultural crisis. Anyway. Even smaller issues the young woman who is being treated unfairly does face in a setting that can be ideological. I mean, college is ideological. It just is. And we're not going to get into left and right. That's not why I asked you here. But to stand out on this, I think one of the clear ramifications could have been sheer shunning from the rest of the student body. And that is an awful burden to place on someone to ask them to be at the vanguard of this cultural matter while the rest of people sit it out and watch from the sidelines.
- [26:33]
Kim Jones
That's why we trust leadership to do the right thing. Right. But when leadership fails, then it's incumbent upon the masses to speak up. So I get that. I think that there's a. When you see the young girls, the bravery that women have, and young girls have had to take upon their shoulders to stand up for this, it should inspire everyone else to say, if they can do it, I can do it too.
- [27:01]
Jack Fowler
And not only at college level. The other case I was thinking of was this. You happen to live in Connecticut, and so do I, by coincidence. But there was a high school case out of Connecticut where the girls, all of a sudden, they were not. They were clearly gonna be the state champions at track and field, but some dude became a girl, and then he took all the prizes, and they fought back, but more power to him. Well, before we take go to a break, I want to ask you, let's focus on icons and what it's doing to fight back. Now, I know you're in the public square, you're advocating, but you are very aggressive in legal efforts. And I understand even the Supreme Court of the United States has cited Icahn's wisdom as you engage in some of these important cases that have been before the court. And we expect some rulings sometime before this term ends. So tell us about how icons engages in the judicial system.
- [28:02]
Kim Jones
Sure. Yeah. So in addition to just public information, it's really difficult to get the stories out into the public arena. Mainstream media will not cover when there are men and boys in women and girls sports. And it's happening at every level of sport. And everywhere that it is allowed or where there aren't strict rules and enforcements to protect the female category, Men and boys are participating in women and girls sports, whether it's professionally, nationally, at the state level, local level, high school, it is anywhere that it is allowed, it is happening. So it's hard to get those stories out. We were the ones that broke that story about the two boxers wasn't just Kalief from Algeria, but also another boxer, Lynn, from Taiwan, Taipei, I believe. And so it was two men, you know, physically beating up women in a boxing ring on the largest stage in sport. So those. And so that's an example of it happening at the highest level and then the lowest level. You know, we get calls from parents and girls who are in middle school in tears about facing, you know, really incredibly frustrating is such a light word, but just abusive situations in locker rooms and on teams. So it is across the board. And we realized that getting the public informed to know about what is happening, what women and girls are facing, but also just what the level of impact is, that was just a start. We really did need to go and have some court wins. We needed to take this to the justice system in order to find some accountability for the organizations that are overseeing policies allowing men into women's sports. Our first target, of course, was the ncaa. And the first lawsuit that we filed was the Gaines versus ncaa, where she is. Riley is heading up that lawsuit with 18 other incredibly brave and accomplished female athletes, including former Olympians, American record holders, national age group record holders, NCAA champions. So there's an illustrious list. Riley is the most recognizable name on that list. But these are all women and girls who have been touched by the effects of their administration, their schools, and the NCAA just refusing to tell women that they deserve access to fair and safe sports.
- [30:46]
Jack Fowler
So I have one more question for you after the sub question. But when people are supporting icons financially, I think one important thing they're doing is helping to underwrite some of these legal issues efforts that you're pushing. And you basically correct me if I'm wrong here, Kim. The amicus brief arguments that you make before federal cases, including United States Supreme Court, this is one of the principal ways you fight that fight, is that correct?
- [31:22]
Kim Jones
Yes. So we've written or submitted and helped to organize more than 30 different amicus briefs across different lawsuits. The lawsuits we're funding, like I said, are Gaines versus ncaa, but also Slussor et al, versus the Mountain West Conference in San Jose State. So that's the situation with the male Volleyball player took a woman's scholarship at San Jose State University, and the girls were brought in to house with a male, share hotel rooms with a male, and of course, share their team with a male, where he was given a women's full scholarship. I mean, there's. It gets even crazier than that. And without being told so the university kept all that information from them. We had girls calling us in tears that had graduated, shocked that they had been, that the university hadn't even let them know that they were sharing intimate spaces where they would be changing with a male. It is a stripping of their consent, right to even know the environment that they are in. And that case has women across five different universities suing their conference on that. And then we have the Estabrook case versus the Ivy League, which is three girls from Pennsylvania who had to compete on the team with Thomas and share the locker room with him during that year. And they are suing also for Title IX violations and equal protection. So we've got those lawsuits. We do do the amicus briefs, where we've been involved in almost every sports case, anything that relates to Title IX or to equal protection, just trying to influence the court system and the judicial outcomes that say women are a separate entity from men and express the importance of recognizing women. So we see sports as the public arena of the difference of the sexes. And I think, you know, there's a lot in society right now around transgender ideology that is impacting everything from medicine to freedom of speech, to the education system, to crisis centers, language in health care, the erasure of the word woman. You know, people have heard going to birthing person or whatever. And there are, for that matter, women's prisons, men being locked up in women's prisons and raping them. There's a huge. There's huge implications for this. And what we see is sports are the public arena where most of those other things are happening behind closed doors. And we've got to assert biological reality. We've got to assert that we have language that differentiates men from women. We do not have to be called into being afraid to call men men or to point out where something is wrong or where women's rights are impacted, or to say, you know, that title nine in education is. And that's kind of the 50 year old law, right, that says that you're not allowed to discriminate on the basis of sex. And in many instances, that means recognizing that men and women are of a different sex class. So it's. Sports is an incredibly important place for us to win and explain why language and fairness and a clear distinction between men and women is critical for recognizing women are valuable in society and equal to men, but not the same as men.
- [35:05]
Jack Fowler
Right? Right. Well, I have one more question for Kim Jones and I'm going to ask that after these final important messages.
- [35:14]
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- [35:45]
Jack Fowler
We are back with Victor Davis Hansen in his own words, pinch hitting today for Victor Kim Jones. And we're recording on the 16th, Monday, the 16th, George Washington or wherever. What President Day still technically George Washington's birthday. And this episode, I think will be up on the 14th, I think the 20th. So, Kim, final question. You touched on this a little earlier, but getting allies from amongst or among the public may be easier than getting people such as yourself, former college level and professional women athletes involved. Yes. I mean, how is it look, you're involved in this. You've involved the sporting world your whole life. I have to believe there are many people who certainly sympathize and are egging you on or urging you on or go get them, but pull back a little when hesitancy about lending their name publicly to the cause. Is that true or, or not.
- [36:55]
Kim Jones
Yes and no. I think, I mean, so it's, I think the more people realize this is a 9010 issue, it's really one of the first things I did when I found out that my daughter was going to be racing a man and that no one was going to be speaking up, you know, that was involved in leadership. I just started making phone calls. I probably made over a thousand contacts with women and men in the professional realm of sports, whether it was Olympic, you know, or the NFL, NBA. You named it. It was across the board. I didn't run into a single person in sport who disagreed with me. Not one. So it's an overwhelming amount of the public that sees this for what it is. Unfortunately, the small number that are on the other side are very loud and vocal and they like to use name calling, silence, fear and intimidation to shut everyone up. So I think we what my hope Is is that through our advocacy, through getting this out in the media, through using clear language, being unafraid to call things what they are on their face. We say, this is a man competing in women's sports. Humans can't change sex. This is a boy competing in girls sports. There is no reason and no justification for allowing a boy, because he feels like he would be more comfortable in this situation, to take the place of a girl where her feelings are dismissed and she's to step aside. This is what we call sexism or misogyny. And so just using clear language, explaining that, no, you can't compel my speech. This was something I learned very early on in the discussion was it was one thing when I said trying to explain to relatives or to people I knew that referring to Leah Thomas, she doesn't belong in the locker room with the other girls. I sound like the crazy person that is kicking a woman out of a locker room locker room where she needs to be able to change. As soon as I say he doesn't belong in the locker room with the girls, it is terrorizing them. They are frightened and uncomfortable. Everyone gets it instantly. So this idea that we have to be compelled to use language that, you know, minimizes or obfuscates the difference in the sexes is a huge thing to overcome. And just to get the public comfortable with saying, I'm not speaking that way because it does damage. And getting the. So our goals are to get people to shed that fear, to shed the concept that they have to be. Well, I mean, the old term used to be politically correct. Right?
- [39:42]
Jack Fowler
Right.
- [39:42]
Kim Jones
We don't need to be worried about what other people think about. Speak the truth, stand on the truth, and don't worry about it. As soon, like I said, we're reaching that tipping point. It's a 90 issue. We still do have people who are by in professional sports who by contract are asked not to speak out on certain issues. There's a lot of pressure from within the industry like Nike. And many of the major brands are completely what we call captured on the other side of this. And there's a lot of money coming from governmental organizations. The whole NGO thing, funding the other side of this. The ACLU has massively deep pockets. We are shoestringing this along and saying we just believe that if women stand up and do the right thing, the public will back us and there's a role for everyone. I think as the media gets more and more open about covering this, as people get more upset, as you start facing it in your own communities. You realize, hey, I'm going to have to cross a Rubicon at some time. I'm not allowed to just stay on the sides and assume things will get better because when the insanity is noisy, the insanity is going to prevail. So we appreciate everyone that's willing to speak up and lend their voice. But more importantly, there's a role. Not everyone can do that or has the time to do that. If people can donate and help us fight and win in these court battles, that's a massive help to us. The other thing people can do is just stay informed and have the conversations with with their friends and family in clear language, understanding what's at stake. The more open we are, even if it's in our small circles, the better.
- [41:27]
Jack Fowler
Yes, to turn the left's silence is violence against them. I wouldn't say it's violence necessarily, but yeah, I agree totally. Speak up, speak up locally, rationally. But we shall know the truth and the truth shall set ye free. I think I heard that reality is
- [41:47]
Kim Jones
going to come back hard and fast.
- [41:50]
Jack Fowler
Well, Kim, give us the website again so I don't misspell it this time.
- [41:54]
Kim Jones
Sure. It's IconsWomen I c O-N-S W-O-M-E-N.com and we appreciate any support that people are able to provide.
- [42:05]
Jack Fowler
Kim, you are doing terrific work. I know you didn't seek this, it sought you, but you embraced it. And, and we're grateful as a society that you've taken this leadership role. So thanks for joining us today on Victor Davis Hanson, in his own words. Really appreciate it. Thanks folks for watching. Thanks for listening and we'll be back soon with another episode. Bye bye. Thank you for tuning in to the Daily Signal. Please like share and subscribe to be notified for more content like this. You can also check out my own website@victorhansen.com and subscribe for exclusive features. In addition,
- [42:51]
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