BEST DAYS | Season 10 Episode 2

Summary

Podcast Summary: Victory Church - Paul Daugherty

Episode: "Best Days" | Season 10, Episode 2

Release Date: October 15, 2025
Podcast Host: Victory Church
Guests/Co-hosts: John & Arvin

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Episode Overview

This episode of the Victory Church podcast focuses on the theme "Best Days"—a look behind the scenes at how the church lives out its well-known confession: "My best days are in front of me." John and Arvin share candid, humorous, and insightful stories about structure vs. spontaneity in life, church, and faith. They discuss the importance of humility and listening to God’s voice for personal direction, the value of being faithful in all walks of life (not just in church leadership), and how living with God as both your source and audience brings true meaning and impact.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Structure vs. Spontaneity in Faith and Life

• "My love language is structure and plans."
  John shares how he thrives with organized, color-coded calendars ([01:34]) and enjoys planning well ahead, while also acknowledging many live "wildly" without structure.

  • Memorable example: John's childhood, with a pastor mom always running late, helped him crave structure ([03:37]).
  • Arvin notes some people benefit from adapting in chaotic settings, recounting times as a staff member running worship slides for spontaneous services led by Pastor Paul ([07:02]).

• Notable Quote:
  "There are some people that live their lives wildly. Reckless abandon... It's so hard for me to be a figure it out person." (John, [02:12])

2. The Need for Flexibility and Adaptation

• Unexpected situations (e.g., flooded Airbnb during a New York film shoot) require adaptability, even for planners.

  • "There was dookie floating." (John, [10:19])

• Airport Mass Story:
  John attends a structured Catholic Mass at the Chicago airport, surprised by how deeply the moment aligns with his own church’s upcoming Christmas production, centered on Mary's Magnificat ([13:44]).

  • "God, this is a wink." (John, [14:28])

• Structure in Worship:
  They observe a spectrum of worship styles—from tightly scripted to fully spontaneous. Both can be sincere and effective if aimed at experiencing God's presence, but both have potential flaws if structure or spontaneity become the focus rather than God Himself ([16:16-17:00]).

• Notable Quotes:
  "There isn't a structured approach to experiencing God...at some point you stop. It's less about God and more about the structure you built." (Arvin, [16:25])
  "There's only one way to God—his name is Jesus—but there are dozens of ways to Jesus." (Arvin, [17:00])

3. Diverse Experiences Bring People to Jesus

• The co-hosts reflect on various personal journeys to faith, noting that events ranging from divorce to overcoming addiction or simply experiencing kindness in Sunday school can all be paths to Jesus ([19:11-19:34]).
• Emphasis: "You can't really put a lid on God...also means, you know, with services and all those things." (John, [19:44])

4. Knowing Your Audience and Serving Authentically

• Each phase of life brings unique needs, from childhood and youth to adulthood and family ([20:15-23:24]), highlighted by John’s progression through different ministry roles.

• The importance of humility for leaders—letting God speak to people "where they're at," not just delivering prepared content.

  • He praises Victory’s leaders, Pastor Paul & Ashley, for their willingness to listen and adapt to their congregation’s needs ([24:15-24:47]).

• Notable Quote:
  "If you just focus on being a big church...you'll die by that as well." (Arvin, [24:47])

5. The Call Beyond Church Walls

• The episode underscores that significant Kingdom impact happens outside formal ministry roles.

  • Examples include business leaders, mechanics, or car salespeople who bring faith into their secular work places ([28:00-31:07]).
  • Story: John's father-in-law, CJ, works in car sales and leads people to Christ in vulnerable moments at the dealership ([30:32]).

• "We need people outside the four walls of the church to be Christian influencers. Not social media—impacting as an electrician, in politics..." (John, [28:56-29:01])

6. The "Disease of Fame" vs. Faithful Obedience

• Arvin critiques the modern obsession with fame, both in secular and church contexts, where validation comes from influence rather than faithfulness ([25:23-26:20]).

• The real legacy, they argue, comes from humble obedience—doing whatever God asks, whether or not it’s public or glamorous.

• "If you operate with God is my audience and He's my source—no one knows your audience better than God." (Arvin, [35:18])

• "Where God is your source and He's also the ultimate audience." (John, [39:56])

• They warn against building churches or ministries for personal fame ("the Christian industrial complex") and instead advocate living daily with God’s direction ([39:38-39:56]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On adaptability:
  "You just gotta adjust." (John, after the flooded basement story, [10:51])

• On Church Structure:
  "Is the structure God or is God God?" (John, [18:58])

• On pathways to Jesus:
  "Something that drew me closer to Jesus was a divorce...some people was addiction...some kindness in Sunday school." (John, [19:11-19:34])

• On vocation:
  "The goal should not be working at a church. The goal should be...asking God daily, 'What do you want from me?'" (John, [31:17-31:27])

• On fame:
  "The disease of fame...the Christian industrial complex, unfortunately, that's been created where you're valuable if the Christian audience says you're valuable." (Arvin, [38:06-39:38])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Opening: Confession & Structure in Life — [00:49–03:56]
• Childhood & Structure Formation — [03:56–06:44]
• Adaptability Stories: Tech and Basement Flood — [07:02–10:51]
• International & Interdenominational Worship Story (Airport Mass) — [12:08–14:24]
• Structure vs. Spirit-led Worship — [15:04–17:42]
• Personal Journeys to Jesus — [19:11–19:44]
• Ministry Phases and Knowing Your Audience — [20:15–24:47]
• Faith Beyond Church Walls — [28:00–31:07]
• "Disease of Fame" Discussion — [24:47–26:20]; [38:06–39:38]
• Where is Real Value? (Legacy, Obedience, Humility) — [34:49–36:37]
• Conclusion & Final Encouragement: How to walk out true faith daily — [40:00–end]

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Final Encouragement

The episode closes with a call for listeners to practice daily humility and ask God,
"God, what do you want from me for today?" ([40:36]),
reminding us the journey of faith is about consistency in seeking God, who is both our source and our audience—and that this is the true path to living our best days, now and ahead.

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Transcript

[A]

Hello. Hi, everybody. Welcome back.

[B]

My name is John.

[A]

My name is Arvin.

[B]

This is behind the Scenes of Our.

[A]

Best days, season 10, Diocha.

[B]

Wait. Diaz DS. Season. Diaz.

[A]

Season DS Diocha.

[B]

Oh, my God. Season Diaz De Ocho.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Wow. So thank you guys for listening and tuning in. We are in the fall of 2025, and if you haven't listened to this podcast before, this podcast is talking about the behind the scenes of victory. At Victory, we say this confession at the beginning of different chapels and services, and we say our best days are.

[A]

Right in front of me.

[B]

My best days are in front of me. Yes. And that's a great confession. But everyone has a behind the scenes, especially. Especially churches. And so, anyways, and that's what this podcast is about. And we're very grateful for our pastors, Pastor Paul and Pastor Ashley, and they will even explain to you, as you guys have probably heard in some of their sermons, even they have behind the scenes of raising five kids and, you know, being over multiple entities here, and they're doing a great job. But one thing that me and Arvin were talking about before this, and I don't know if you guys are like this or not, but. But, like, my love language is, like, structure and plans. Like, guys, I'm gonna walk over. I'm in. I'm in. What is that called? In camera shot right now. I'm gonna just show you guys something.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Like, okay, so this is, like, right here. I love a calendar, and I have it, like, highlighted colors. Colors. Different colors of pens. This is December. Wait, that's November, you know? And then we fast forward to December.

[A]

Stacked.

[B]

No, it looks like I'm doing a hobby. Lobby.

[A]

Yeah, it's a craft book.

[B]

A craft book.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Yes. But I enjoy structure. Do you? Yeah, yeah. Like, I feel like you have things planned out and stuff.

[A]

Yeah, but, yeah, absolutely.

[B]

There are some people that live their lives wildly. Reckless abandon to where they're just like, oh, like, the kids don't have lunch today at school. I forgot to pack lunch. Okay, cool. Well, we'll figure it out.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

It's so hard for me to be a figure it out person.

[A]

Same. Yeah.

[B]

It actually, like, I truthfully believe, at least for me, if someone goes, hey, John, I would rather someone give me an impossible task and then give me six months.

[A]

Sure, yeah.

[B]

You know?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or compared to someone doing a menial task, but they need it in an hour.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure.

[B]

Like, if someone's like, hey, can you just, like, go around and shut all the doors to the offices in the church building within the next hour. Yeah, I would freak out.

[A]

Sure. Because you know, how you came to be this way? Were you always this way?

[B]

I don't know. Is it a childhood thing?

[A]

I'm sure I'm curious. Like, was it like maybe athletics created that structure? Most people's introduction to planning and structure. I remember my basketball coach. Was that for me?

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So, like, for instance, we had two a days in football, and my dad was always really big on like, you need to eat because you're gonna practice from 8 till 10am and then you're gonna go back around and you'll practice like from 3 to 5pm and so you'll need to eat breakfast and then eat, you know. But my dad would make eggs and I would vomit. Eggs?

[A]

Yeah, eggs before a morning workout is tough, dude.

[B]

Insane.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

But so I was like, well, if I don't want to vomit, that means I need to wake up earlier and eat earlier. And then I would be like, if I want to eat lunch, I'm not going to be super hungry, so I'll need to pack my lunch and eat it right after the morning practice. That way it has time to digest. And it just made me, like, think.

[A]

Through all those things.

[B]

Oh, true.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

You know, or if it was like, oh, I'm going to be too tired to work out after work. So that means I'll have to do it before. But if I do it before, that means I'll have to shower wherever I'm at. So that means I'll have to pack the night before and lay things out.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

And if I miss something, like socks the next day, I'm not gonna have socks.

[A]

That's right. Yeah. Walking around all day. Blisters. Yeah, exactly.

[B]

So anyways, I don't know, I guess maybe that I love my mom, Pastor Sharon, founding pastor. But growing up, my mom was late to everything. Like, driving a big old van, putting on eyeliner.

[A]

Awesome.

[B]

While going through intersections.

[A]

That should be an Olympic sport. My wife does her makeup in the car. And I'm like, how is this not a dui? How is this not.

[B]

That's funny.

[A]

She drives well.

[B]

But I'm like, this is dressing under the influence.

[A]

Makeup under the influence.

[B]

Dressing under the influence. Yeah. And mui.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

No, but yeah, like. And I think that my mom was obviously doing things to, like, with all of our kids. We would be running from my sister's piano lessons to our sports practices. And then my mom's prayer and choir Meetings while my dad was, like, running the church. And so I just think that our lives was always doing something. And so my mom was always like, curb check. And, like. And it was always like, we kind of had this. We knew when church was gonna happen, but all other plans was like, oh, we gotta do this. Okay. We need to stop by the hospital because we're gonna pray for, you know, Hank's mother. She's overcoming, you know, whatever.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And we'd go, okay. It's okay. We'll still be back in time for your basketball practice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, we haven't eaten dinner. You can eat nuggets in the hospital room while I'm praying for this person. Incredible. And we're just chomping away with nuggets and. Honey.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Why my mom is having a prayer, praying for us.

[A]

In your basketball uniform.

[B]

In our basketball uniform. Incredible.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think just life being kind of a hot mess.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

As a young kid, I was. I just felt like maybe that developed it.

[A]

Wake up at six.

[B]

I will wake up. Yeah. And it brought structure. Like, so anyways. But like. And I don't know if any of you guys grew up in a minister's home or something like that, but that was. Or maybe you grew up in a home similar to that.

[A]

Sure. Yeah.

[B]

Or, you know. And Pastor Paul is sporadic. Pastor Paul will do a Saturday night sermon.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then he'll go like, hey, tomorrow I'm going to speak a different sermon. And I know you experienced that with his slides.

[A]

Yeah. My first nine months on staff, I got to do his slides. Absolutely.

[B]

And they would change.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. And it's, like, really important that. Whether it's that or your first job or whatever, like, I think every young person benefits from that sort of environment.

[B]

To some extent of it being, like, just having to adjust.

[A]

Yeah. Having to run between two computers, and on one computer, I'm hitting the next lyric for the worship and for the lyrics to come up. If you haven't been to church when the. When they sing, they put the words of the song so you can learn the song.

[B]

So you're the song show guy.

[A]

If the person, the volunteer for that didn't show up, which usually they did. But the times that it didn't happen. I remember one Sunday, John Bevere was here, and I'm running from lyrics, pressing the next thing, and then I'd run over, and I was inputting all the stuff to get ready because he always has someone do his notes for him, his slides for him. But I'm Running over and inputting them here, running over here, going back and forth. But with Pastor Paul, that would happen often and you just go with it, you know?

[B]

Yeah. I think that that is something that, like, in that moment, John would be like, sure, yeah, yeah, yeah. But, yeah, I need to probably be more adjustable to that. But one thing that I. That I was like, I enjoyed. Okay. So we filmed for this upcoming Christmas production. We filmed in New York.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And was really awesome. And it was great. And yes, things did have to be structured on time. And if this. Then that type of thing, one night. Sorry, this is a rabbit trail. But we're gonna get there. Okay. So Arvin gets us this place to stay in where everyone is staying in one home and the homes there, you know, it's expensive to stay in Newark, so you gotta stay in Jersey.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, same.

[B]

And the homes there are like, stacked. Like they're smaller, but they're three stories, right?

[A]

That's correct.

[B]

And so me and Arvin and the guy doing our film, we're staying in the basement.

[A]

Yes. We gave our other friends and crew members the bedrooms.

[B]

And there was. And Ryan and Jill, the married. And there was two married couples with families. So we're like, okay, they need to.

[A]

Have their own safe bedroom spaces.

[B]

So we're in the basement.

[A]

We're in the basement. Yeah.

[B]

What happens that first night? You're sitting there on the couch.

[A]

Yeah. We get back from filming Wednesday.

[B]

It's. It is 12:30pm it's almost 1:00am a.m. yeah.

[A]

So we're 12:30am it's like we just get there. We're exhausted. We've had a long day. And then I just see water on the ground. And I go, it looks like someone's. I thought Spencer Click, our media director and cinematographer, I thought he had spilled water and not cleaned it up. And so I'm getting ready, like, loading up things to. To say to him. And then I realized it's on the other side of the room too. And that's when I thought, okay, no way, that can't be the thing. And then we go to the one corner, and you were the one who saw it. There was a hole in the ground, a drain, water just pouring out of it.

[B]

Yeah, it looks like the Bellagio. Yeah, it's just a fountain.

[A]

It smells like it too. Yeah, it was bad. It was bad.

[B]

Then all of a sudden, people are taking showers and then people are using the bathroom. Yeah, guys, Dookie starts coming out, you'd.

[A]

Hear a toilet flush. And then you'd hear it Come up out of the ground here.

[B]

Yes. Guys, poop was floating in the basement. Am I exaggerating?

[A]

No. I have a video of it. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

In fact, we'll send it to you.

[A]

Subscribe for that video.

[B]

Just subscribe for that video. There was dookie floating.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And we're just like. And I'm up on a bed. Arvin was like, I was gonna sleep on the ground.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

From.

[A]

Yeah. It didn't work. Yeah. Because we woke up. Well, the first night it was just water. And I thought, okay, I'll sleep on the ground or it'll be okay. When we wake up in the morning, it's the rest of it. And we go, okay, we can't sleep down here. This is bad.

[B]

Yeah. So we had to go to another motel.

[A]

You just gotta adjust.

[B]

Yeah. But anyways, that was just a side story. But okay. So flying back, it's on a Sunday and, you know, I'm in Chicago airport, I have a layover and I hear this intercom. And the unique thing about Chicago is Chicago the city. And you guys probably know this, but there's lots of Catholics. Like, there's Catholics in other states. But I feel like there is a big centralized Catholic population in Chicago and everyone is a Notre Dame fan. I love Notre Dame. I tell people I'm Catholic on the weekends, but I'm kidding. I just love the football team. Notre Dame. Well, Notre Dame is playing. Notre Dame just played on Saturday. And so there's all of these Notre Dame people flying back to their states, you know, wherever they're from. They're not all from South Bend or Chicago. They're flying back to go home. And so they're all in the airport on Sunday. And I'm flying back on a Sunday and it's during church. But like you had. They were charging for WI Fi and I was like, I can't watch victory online. Well, then I hear this announcement and it was like, there will be a prayer and worship service and everyone is welcome. And at the airport. At the airport.

[A]

Incredible.

[B]

And it's at the airport chapel. Go up this elevator and I'm listening and I go. And. And I see people get up from. Because I had a two hour layover.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Get up from our gate and begin walking towards this elevator. And I go, I'm going to go to this church service in an airport to see what's up. We all get on this elevator and everyone is very somber. And they get in and I'm like, oh, this is Mass. This is Catholic Mass. And So I was like, I'm going to go to mass in the airport. And they have a. And those of you who have been to mass before, or maybe you're Catholic, or maybe at one point you were Catholic, whatever. They have a patron saint of flight.

[A]

Incredible.

[B]

So you pray to a saint over the airport. Okay, I'm not exactly. Yeah. So anyways. And the thing about mass is structured. You come in, it starts on time. You have the prayers that you're repeating. It's my first time. I'm trying to. I mean, I have visited before, but it was a while ago and I had forgotten. And I'm trying to keep up with them on, like, repeating back the prayers. They have the reading. They have the singing of the psalm. You sit down, you stand up, and it is very structured. And I heard that mass was 30 minutes. And I was like, man, this is like a flow. It's moving, it's grooving. It's like. And it was a really great word reading from out of the Isaiah. Well, then they went to. And they read. Guess what they read that day? Mary's Magnificat.

[A]

Oh, perfect. Oh, wow.

[B]

Our production and Christmas is based around Mary's Magnificat, which is Mary's praise to God. After she's. After she visits Elizabeth.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, God tells her, you're gonna give birth to a son. And she's like, I'm a virgin. How can it be? The Holy Spirit will overshadow you. And then she goes to see her cousin Elizabeth. Elizabeth is like, I'm gonna have John the Baptist.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then she sings this song of praise, and it's Mary's Magnificat.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I feel seen. I've been chosen. You've shown me mercy, and I feel fulfilled. Those are the four things, you know? Well, we're doing a production on that. I go, and they're reading Mary's Magnificat.

[A]

Isn't that awesome? Yeah. Nice.

[B]

And I was like, God, this is a wink.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

I love a God wink.

[A]

I love that. Absolutely.

[B]

But anyways, so that was. That was something that was, like, a pleasant experience, but it brought back to, like, structure of their service. And, you know, it is unique how different people, Baptists, Pentecostals, different things. They have a different structure for their different, like, audience and stuff, you know, to where, like, for revival nights, Pastor Paul got up at the beginning of revival nights, and he was like, hey, guys, worship is gonna go however long it's gonna go.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And it was more of, like, A flow thing, sure. Because he was like, we are going to seek the face of God, the presence of God. So if there's a certain time you have to leave, you're welcome to leave, but, like, it will be over when it's over. And he told everyone that at the beginning of every night. And I was like, this is probably difficult for people who are like, I want my service an hour and 10 minutes.

[A]

Sure, yeah.

[B]

You know, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[A]

I mean, there's just different preferences and tastes. Like there's a spectrum where one end is structure, everything is repeated even. There are some belief systems in the Christian faith that you're not even, like, praying impromptu. Like, the prayers are also written down. And there's value to that, I think. And then the other end, of course, which is, I don't want to name anybody, but there are churches that it's like, you know, three, four hour services regularly. God's just changing stuff. The Holy Spirit's telling me something fresh and it's like. And I don't want to make fun of those people either, because anywhere on that spectrum. Yeah, if there is sincerity, if the person is genuine and sincere, I think there's value there. Now, all of them also have flaws.

[B]

Yes. That's a good thing to put, is that all of them have flaws, but with sincerity, they also can experience the presence of God.

[A]

That's right. Yeah. There isn't a structured approach to experiencing God. That is because then at some point you stop. It's less about God and more about the structure you built.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

It's like, let's elevate our. How we do it is better how we do, how we approach God and Jesus. So it's important for people, I think a mature believer comes to understand, like, there's only one way to God. We're not. No mistake about that. Like, Jesus is the only path to God, but there are dozens of paths to Jesus.

[B]

Say that again.

[A]

There's only one way to God and his name is Jesus. That's not debatable. We're not interfaith and saying, like, I'm.

[B]

Write that down.

[A]

Because some people, once you start having that conversation about having like an approach, everyone has an approach to God. And then they go, yeah, and the God of Muslims is the same as Jesus and the same as, like, I hear people say that and I even appreciate their intention. The intention is like, I just want everyone to be at peace with each other. But you're, you're, you're peacekeeping, not peacemaking. Like, that's not True. Yeah. You can't say the God of the Quran is the same as the God of the Bible.

[B]

1000.

[A]

I'm not saying that. But there are, there's one way to God. His name is Jesus, but there's dozens of ways to Jesus.

[B]

Yeah. Because if you think about it, the thief on the cross.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That got accepted into eternity, never gave in the offering.

[A]

Right.

[B]

We don't know if he ever went to a church.

[A]

He wasn't confirmed in some service.

[B]

But he met Jesus on his cross.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Which is so powerful. Makes me emotional thinking about it. And then you think about God. God can also move in 60 seconds.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

God can also move in a three hour service.

[A]

100%. Right.

[B]

And so it is, it is unique because sometimes I. Have you guys ever heard of like church planting conferences? Like there's sometimes where there's church planning conferences or. Whenever I was a youth pastor, we'd go to youth conferences and they would give us a. Hey, these are, these are formulas that if you implement them in your youth group, they will work. Sure. Like this is the structure of your service. This is, it needs to be your praise song, worship song, and it becomes planning center.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, and to me it made sense because I love structure. But then whenever there was times for like the Holy Spirit to move, it was like, oh man, are we so married to the structure that like, what is God?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Like is the structure God or is God God?

[A]

Right, exactly.

[B]

And so anyways, and I know that's not what you were saying, but that was just a side branch of, you know, the whole thing of. I love what you said. You said there's one way to God, many ways to Jesus.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think that's so beautiful and powerful because you know, something that drew me closer to Jesus was a divorce. And then certain people, what drew them closer to Jesus was like getting off of an addiction.

[A]

Sure, absolutely.

[B]

Some people what drew them closer to Jesus was attending a Sunday school and experiencing someone loving and kind.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know what I mean?

[A]

Totally.

[B]

And so it's just. Yeah. You can't really put a lid on God. And when I say that, it also means, you know, with services and all those things. But.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Yeah. You know, but another unique thing was, you know, how I love when people know their audiences. Like I was talking to Arvind before I worked in kids ministry for like in eighth grade. It was non voluntary. My dad was like, my sisters were the, were the children's pastors of our 10:00am service. And my dad was like, you're gonna help your sisters. Yeah. So me, Paul, and our friend A.J.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

From, like, eighth through high school, it was like, we did children's church every Sunday morning, and we would do skits, and we would do poppet shows, and we would do. You know, and I think that helped build a muscle of just writing skits and stuff like that, because it was like, okay, what's the game this week? You know, what's the offering message? What's the. Yeah, well, then. And whenever I got into college, I started getting paid a little, like a stipend, you know, to actually teach the 10:00am Service.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that was where I met my kid's mother. We were teaching together, and it was. And it was great, and it was awesome. But, like, you know, teaching those kids the Bible and having them learn the Bible was about memorization and then asking them questions and saying, like, now, how do I do? How do I take the scripture? And what does it look like, you know, when I'm obeying my mom and dad? Or what if I experience a pet dying or my grandma or grandpa passes away? What does the peace of God mean now? And, you know, teaching those kids this. Then whenever I was like, then I was the junior high youth pastor for two years with Crystal Onan.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

With her husband. They're still at Victory, and they do a great job and love Shawn. Yes. I was the junior high youth ministry, and my thing was like, hey, making right decisions. Also your identity in Christ.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because in junior high, girls are, like, experiencing female stuff.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Y' all know what I'm talking about. Boys are experiencing hair on their armpits for the first time. They're feeling these hormones. Boys are, like, very hormonal. Same with girls. I feel like 8th grade kids can be very, very mean.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because they're trying to impress. And so they're very cutting and biting. You can get roasted, you know.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

And so you're having to talk to kids about identity. Then when you get into high school, I was the high school youth pastor for a while. Your sermons become more about, like, reaching your school for Jesus.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Hey, Just because you messed up, shame off of you. You know, like, God loves you. So now come to the altar and repent. Surrender your life to Jesus.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Then when you get to teaching young adults, which was Victory downtown.

[A]

Totally. Yeah.

[B]

Then it's like you go back to identity, because now these people have graduated, and they're like, what do I do with my life now? And usually people, once they've graduated high school, or they're in college. They're trying to figure out what is my life going to look like? Who am I going to marry? Is what I'm doing right now folding sweaters at the Gap? I don't think this is what I'm going to do when I'm 30. So. Trying to figure out purpose.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and then when you're preaching on the weekends, the sermons are centered around, like, growing you as a believer, but also parenting.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Also how to deal with disappointment.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

How to deal with heartbreak.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

You know, and then finding your. Your place, volunteering and serving and leading a connect group and discipleship and teaching. So it's just unique. Like, each phase of life having.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Those. Those moments of, like, different. Well, what am I trying to say?

[A]

Yeah, you just got to know your.

[B]

Audience, like, knowing your audience, where they're.

[A]

At, and then that's where hopefully. And this is one area where we can really, really brag and be proud of Pastor Paul and Pastor Ashley. Both of them do this very skillfully, which is having the humility to go to God and go, hey, I. I need you to speak to these people. Like, we're coming to your word. And yes, we have a familiarity with the scriptures, but also, you could say whatever you want. And we just want that to happen.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so that's one area where it'll sound real on brand, but, like, I'm very proud of victory for that because churches of this size, typically, you don't get them, or at least the movement going back to that whole idea of the spectrum of different ways of worshiping God. Like, if you live by, hey, how. How can we just make this as big as possible with as many people in the room or watching online? Yeah, that's fine. If you're gonna live by that, you'll die by that as well.

[B]

So if you just focus on, like, being a big church.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, that's. Honestly, that's a symptom of a larger disease in our culture, which is like, fame is validation of your identity. And so there was a. There's a tech company named Nvidia. They make, like, chips. Yeah. One of the most valuable companies in the world. And I heard the CEO, I think they're like three or four trillion dollars value. It's insane. And the gentleman, the CEO's name is Jensen, and he said, in the future, we're gonna need plumbers and mechanics. Like, this is the. It's like the United States.

[B]

Everyone is trying to become a creator.

[A]

Everyone wants to be an Influencer. I just want free stuff, whatever. And it's just really a disease that says your validation is fame. And when everyone knows who you are or wants to emulate this fake projection that you. Well, unfortunately, churches fell into that as well. I applaud Victory in any context, public or private, for not having done that. And so the size of Victory is almost. What's the word? I didn't observe that. It was like, we just need people to like, fill the space. We just want a lot. Like, yes, we want to reach a lot of people so their lives are better. But the sincerity of that motive is exposed in the, in the methods being used. So that's a whole thing with the modern big churches being big for the sake of being big. They live by it, they die by it. But I applaud the way that Victory does it where there's a sincerity to God. What do you want to say to this group of faith people?

[B]

Right?

[A]

As opposed to saying, like, hey, I really am excited by this content and material. We were over saturated nowadays with content and even this pot, like we're adding, like we're creating, you know, and what's great is that people, it finds its audience. And there are a dedicated group of people who listen to this. But the, the lesson and takeaway from all that is it's wonderful to have that humility not just for a sermon, but for your life. Lord, how do I approach this parenting situation? How do I approach this job situation? How do I approach these relationships? Because then that's how you'll see. Like, the Victory's been around for over 40 years, and that's the biggest thing I've pulled from it in my time here so far. That, that humility to go. I don't really care how popular or unpopular this is. I'd like to. To figure out what God has for me to do now and next. And I'm gonna do that. And even though there's a cause, some people you can coast. It's like, well, my parents. You could have. People could have done that. Thankfully, that didn't happen here. My parents really obeyed God and it created this wonderful big church. Excellent. Now I'm gonna do what I want with it. And there are stories of that too. Thankfully it's not here. But you see that and you go, oh, that sucks. Cause it could have gotten continued to get better.

[B]

Right? No, that's true.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I like what you said about, you know, asking, like, that's a good outlook on life. Totally asking God, okay, what do you want to Do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that. And I'm also going to hit on another thing he said, and this is a segue, is basically, you know, that we do need plumbers.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We need electricians. And I think that there is an allure, like a L L U R E. Not the, not the makeup brand that I buy for my daughter.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But, yeah, but allure to, to work at a church.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like one thing that whenever I look at people like, oh, hobby lobby guy.

[A]

Mark Green.

[B]

Mark Green.

[A]

David Green. Mark Green, yeah.

[B]

Mark and David Green.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm so grateful that they did not decide to be pastors.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

I'm so glad Kathy Truitt over Chick Fil A, who's a strong Christian, did not decide to work at a church.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[B]

It's that we need people outside the four walls of the church to be Christian. When I say influencers, I don't mean social media.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I mean impacting and influencing. As an electrician.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

As owning construction companies. Totally. Yeah. As in politics, you know, I'm grateful that Charlie Kirk was not a pastor.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Charlie Kirk had a calling where he was like, I feel called to debate.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

College engage college students and all that on college campus. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Imagine, like, at least to me, I did not know as many people did it on the level that he did it. Like, I didn't even think that was a calling.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But he proved that it was. You know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And I'm like. But he's also this like really pronounced Christian. And I'm like, it would be very easy for him to say, hey, I'm smart, I know how to communicate. I should be a preacher. Like one plus one plus one equals three.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

You know?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But there are people who are supposed to be working in fashion.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

There are people who are supposed to be working with, you know, my father in law, the grandpa of my kids, he works in the financing of a car dealership. And he has said that he deals with people in the most vulnerable state because they're like trying to afford a car.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

And he's able to look at all of their finances and you basically are like, you see all the skeletons in the closet when you look at someone's finances.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

You know, and in those moments he's able to not only give them guidance on what to do in order to get their car, but he's also able to say, hey, what are you believing for? Can I pray with you? Because I would love to hear a testimony of a Miracle that what God is going to do in your life.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And from that he's led people to Christ that would have never stepped foot in a church, but they're trying to buy a car.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[B]

And you know his name is cj. Absolutely. Love him. And so the grandpa of my kids, he at one point worked at Victory.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he felt this call to, he says the business world, but sales world.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He was like, I really feel strong in sales.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Well, he didn't really study sales, but he felt called to it. And then he went to night school. And then he was like, so he left Victory to do sales.

[A]

Incredible.

[B]

And now I'm like, think about how many people have been impacted by the kingdom of God because CJ Stopped working at Victory.

[A]

Right, exactly.

[B]

And it's crazy to think that, but I want to encourage those of you guys who are listening to, like, the goal should not be working at a church. The goal should be what you said, asking God daily.

[A]

Yeah, what do you want from me? What do you want?

[B]

What do you want from me? And in new seasons of life, too.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

And just because you are in a season, and for me, I'm in a season that I feel very. I have a strong conviction I'm supposed to be doing what I'm supposed to be doing. And it is, I don't want to say it is definitely not mundane. I will say it's highly repetitive what I'm doing on a day to day basis, it's highly repetitive.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And on a yearly basis, it's repetitive with, you know, productions and the events that we do at Victory and then the week to week repetitiveness of what I do with campuses and the school with coaching, but I feel like I'm supposed to do it. Like, I would feel so out of place if someone said, hey, John, Arvin, we got a movie deal for you, but you got to move to Atlanta for the next two years. Right now I would have to say no. Yeah, I would. I would try to figure out another way to do it, but I would be like, yeah, if it's moving to Atlanta. No.

[A]

Right, exactly. Yeah.

[B]

You know, well, John, what if it's $100 million in 2025 in the fall? I would have to say no, like, because. And I can't speak for Arvind, because that's a lot of money and that's also something that he feels called to do. But like, for John, right now, yeah, I just feel such a strong conviction of what I'm doing. So I understand Seasons of consistency and being planted and doing that. But also, like, yeah, I believe that that can also come true for you in your life.

[A]

Agreed. Absolutely. Yeah. I feel like that would be the. Perhaps the next frontier. Like, there was a season there probably between the 80s and 2020, where it was like. And I believe there will always be value to the local church, but there was a real thing there where it was like, you saw people move cities to go to a town or a city just so they could be at a specific church, be in a specific ministry.

[B]

We're in. So we also live in Tulsa, where we have really great churches, like Transformation.

[A]

Totally wonderful churches here.

[B]

Transformation Church with Pastor Mike Todd. Church to Move with Pastor Whit George Victory.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

GUTS with Pastor Bill Scheer, Rhema Bible Training Center. So people do move from. And it also helps. We have ORU across the.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

People do move to Tulsa to attend churches or to, like, be a part.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. And I've been all through the south, and I've seen it in several cities. There's also. You got. Colorado Springs is one. Tulsa, it's the Bible Belt. It's just like this section of. And I think it's wonderful, and it'll probably continue. And those leaders and those individual places are great. I believe the next frontiers. And this has been happening all along, but I feel like there needs to be a focus on the plumbers, electricians, the accountants, the doctors, the lawyers, the garbage men, the whoever who are, like, know God intimately and are aligned with him. And so their sense of agency and how they operate in their world, their family, their life is precisely as God would intend. I feel like that is a beautiful vision for the future of a society.

[B]

I love that. The new frontier, what you're sensing is whatever your hands find to do, do it as unto the Lord.

[A]

Yeah. We're gonna have to have a metaphorical. What's it called if a person has cancer, they go into chemotherapy from the.

[B]

So what does that mean?

[A]

The disease of I'm only valuable when I'm famous. That has to be. Is going to be. Unfortunately, one way or another, it's gonna get ripped out of our DNA.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it's gonna stop being. Because if you operate with God is my audience and he's my source.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so he's gonna be the. Like, no one knows your audience better than God.

[B]

And so if you.

[A]

If you stop thinking of the people are the audience, because that's the other limiting thing, and you make God your audience, then it's like, what do you Want to see? What do you want me to do? And that will actually, ironically enough, that will change the world. Instead of people being like, how can I create a structure and a business and a church system that changes the world? That's fantastic. But it's also extremely limiting. As opposed to saying, like, God, I would ask that you. I'm in this position now, please prepare my character, my integrity to be the wonderful dad that I will be to my daughter and my other future kids in the future. Like, that would change the world. Like 500,000 men who go, I'm going to work on my character and be a wonderful husband and father. That would change the world. Now one guy says, I want to have a church of 50 million. That's fantastic. I don't know if it'll change the world.

[B]

That's a good point.

[A]

That's tough. That's really a hard pill to swallow. Movements and churches.

[B]

Well, Jesus said, go into Judea Samaria for the uttermost parts.

[A]

And if he wants to organize the capital C church, but it's his church. And as long as it's his church, I think that approach. So I don't think that. And that's. That was another symptom of that last 40 year time period where it's like building a church to the neglect of your kids.

[B]

Building the church in the neglect to.

[A]

The neglect of your kids. I'm grateful that I'm one of the only PK's I know that didn't have that. My situation with my parents who were pastors, I never felt unprioritized. I never felt unimportant. There were times where they were like, hey, not right now. We have to do this instead. But I was. You know what I mean? And so it's very, very difficult, I imagine, to grow up with the kids I grew up with in particular, pastor parents, ministry parents who are in Christian school. You're just inundated with only Christian versions of everything. And when you get to be 18 to 22 to 25, you're like, I cannot distinguish a version of this faith for myself apart from like my parents thing. And the fact that unfortunately, like that generation, the majority of those people were willing to. They would drop a baby to run onto a podcast where they talk about how their ministry helps babies that have been dropped. Does that make sense? Yeah. They would neglect their own priorities and priorities because they were hungry for the disease of fame. Got him.

[B]

The disease of fame.

[A]

And what's great is there are individuals, I study them constantly because I grew up in this atmosphere, there are individuals who. The fame was accidental and symptomatic, and it was annoying, and it wasn't the intention. It wasn't like, hey, I want to be well known. I want to be on tv. I want to be a big deal. There were people like your parents, there were people like Oral Roberts who were like, I'm just going to do what I'm supposed to do and reach the audience I'm called to reach. But then. And I've heard in conversations I've had with people who were there at the time, how there were. There was. There's a clear delineation between the person that goes, I only want the version of life that God would arrange for me, and I want the character and integrity necessary to obey that calling correctly. And if that calling is, you are a plumber or wonderful, I. I know. I know a plumber that I'm like, oh, this is my guy. Because we've had the conversations, the sincerity, they know the lore, etc. But if there's on the other end, it's like, well, you're only valuable if you're famous. And that even has become, I heard it recently, the term the. The Christian industrial complex. Whereas the Christian industrial complex, unfortunately, that's been created where it's like, you're valuable if the Christian audience says that you're valuable. Every observation of that sort of movement throughout history, the church shrank.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

And not just in size, but in effectiveness. And so not to call anybody out. But it's like, if you live by the validation and fame even of Christian people, then you miss out on the version of a life you could have where God is the source and he's also the ultimate audience. Yes.

[B]

Where God is the source and he's also the ultimate audience.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, I'm glad that you guys joined us today, and I hope you guys got something out of that, because, you know, just to wrap it up and close it up, where God is your source, but also your audience. And another thing, there is one way to God, but many ways to Jesus.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's so good. And it really helps us be like, okay, today, you know, after you guys listen to this podcast, you can turn it off and just kind of, if you're driving, don't close your eyes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But if you're not driving, you can just close your eyes and say, okay, God.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What's the question?

[A]

Yeah. The humble humility to say, God, what do you want from me for today?

[B]

What do you want from me today?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that is that's how you can piece together today, it's your. It's your daily armor, it's your daily bread. And then tomorrow, you wake up and do the same thing. And then whatever God wants to do. After that consistency of asking that question of, you know, doing the Lord's Prayer, the daily. The daily devotions, I think that if you fast forward that, you know, over years, you'll see your life completely begin to align. Not just what you dreamed of.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But even more than you could hope, dream, or desire.

[A]

Agreed.

[B]

All right. Well, hey, we love you guys. Thank you for tuning in, and we'll see you next week.

[A]

Bye. Bye.