Best Days | Season 10 Episode 3

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Victory Church – "Best Days" | Season 10 Episode 3

Date: October 22, 2025
Host: Victory Church (Pastors John & Arvin)
Series: Best Days

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Overview

This episode dives into the complexities of Christian life in the current media-driven culture, focusing on how virality, public opinion, and scandals intersect with faith, church, and personal growth. John and Arvin reflect candidly on the lure of fame, the consequences of outrage and online culture, and what genuine Christian maturity looks like—both behind the scenes and in public. The conversation draws on current cultural events, personal experiences, and teachings from Pastor Paul’s "End Times" sermon series to encourage listeners to seek spiritual growth and authenticity.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Outrage Marketing and Christian Witness (00:14–04:00)

• Current Example: Kylie Jenner’s controversial music release and Kris Jenner’s strategic (outrage-driven) marketing.
• Insight: Outrage and backlash, even negative, often amplify exposure. Christians sometimes unknowingly support what they oppose by reacting loudly online.
• Quote:

  “Sometimes as believers, we get on this thing where we're like, we hate this, we hate that, and we start bashing something. All you're doing is exposing it more.” – John (03:14)

• Application: Pause before amplifying negativity—consider if your reaction simply spreads what you dislike.

2. Negative Press, Church Scandals & Viral Movements (04:00–07:00)

• Victory’s Experience: Negative news coverage of church events often brought greater attention or even new members.
• Leadership’s Advice:

  “Anytime someone has said something negative about Victory, our lead team has told people, ‘Hey, just don't talk about it. The more you talk about it, the bigger it gets.’” – John (05:02)

3. Living in the End Times: Fear, Faith, or Carelessness (05:19–07:47)

• Pastor Paul’s Sermon: Three possible responses: fear, faith, or nonchalance.
• Discussion: John and Arvin unpack the dangers of apathy and the distractions of constant online debate about signs of the times.
• Quote:

  “There’s three approaches to the end times. You can live in fear, you can live in faith, or you can be careless... The main question is: as a believer, how do you live in the end times?” – John (06:36)

4. Christian Fame, Authenticity, and Conflict (08:05–10:42)

• Case Study: Forest Frank’s Dove Awards controversy and his exchange with Jelly Roll.
• Reflection: Authenticity, intention, and handling criticism matter more than external debates.
• Quote:

  “We can totally admire both of the characters of Jelly Roll and Forrest Frank… as you zoom back, that’s what we were talking through." – John (10:16)

5. The Analogy of the Church as a 'Theme Park' (10:52–14:05)

• Arvin’s Analogy: Modern church often mimics the curated, seamless experience of a theme park—hiding the messy realities.
• Warning:

  “Eventually the park closes... God raised up flawed people who correctly served his purpose for their generation.” – Arvin (14:05)

• Maturity: God works through flawed humans, not icons.

6. Elevation, Scandal & Idolatry in the Church (14:11–19:00)

• Theological Reflection: Even revered figures (Martin Luther, King David) were deeply flawed.
• Warning: Don’t base your faith on personalities; everyone is in need of grace.
• Quote:

  “You are not better than Kylie Jenner. You are not better than the person that you hate online... God loves that person as much as he loves you, even if you have tithed your brains out.” – John (17:43)

7. Wisdom, Immaturity, and Viral Christianity (19:00–24:49)

• Cautions:
  • Knowledge without maturity can be harmful.
  • Many chase platforms/attention using faith as a means to an end.
• Scripture/Epistle Insights:
  • 2 Timothy 3 and Matthew 24 warnings about superficiality.
  • Philippians 2: “God is working in you, giving you the desire to obey him and the power to do what pleases him.” – Arvin (20:43)
• Viral Trends: Church strategies often mimic secular patterns, but real transformation is internal.

8. Christian Ghettos vs. Cultural Engagement (24:49–26:21)

• Critique: Creating Christian-only versions of everything is immature; maturity means being sent into the world as salt and light.
• Quote:

  “Someone's gonna have to be sent by God into this culture.” – Arvin (25:44)

9. Motive Matters—Paul’s Attitude to Mixed Motives (26:23–29:00)

• Scriptural Example: Paul’s approach in Philippians to preachers with mixed motives.
• Quote:

  “There are leaders... preaching the gospel out of vain ambition to make money, and yet I rejoice that the Gospel… is being preached.” – Arvin (26:51)

• Application: Don’t throw out truth because of flawed messengers; God can still use them.

10. Excellence, Authentic Worship & Production (29:09–34:45)

• Anecdote: Hillsong Conference—criticism for having high production but singing “The Heart of Worship.”
• Takeaway:

  “You can be amazing at production… as long as the motive is encountering Jesus, the presence of God, repentance, worshiping in spirit and in truth.” – John (32:27)

• Warning: Don’t idolize or vilify methods—focus on the heart.

11. Handling Scandal and Disappointment (34:45–39:45)

• Guidance:
  • Don’t idolize Christian leaders.
  • If disappointed by someone’s failure, remember the message can stay true.
  • “Chew the meat, spit out the bone.”
• Quote:

  “The antidote... is the remnant of people whose genuine delight is experiencing and knowing God.” – Arvin (35:04)

12. Private Devotion, Public Faith (36:50–41:07)

• Challenge:
  • Can you love God privately, without a platform?
  • True maturity is seeking God’s presence for its own sake.

13. Maturing in Christ & Extending Grace (41:07–42:43)

• Call to Action:
  • Pray for fallen leaders; for your own and others’ growth.
  • Seek maturity—God can’t pour “new wine” (fresh revelation, wisdom) into “old wineskins” (those resistant to growth).
• Quote:

  “Let's also, as soon as we hear something about someone... our first response is to pray for that individual... and for a maturing in me.” – John (41:07)

• Scripture Reference: (Matthew 9:17) “You can’t put new wine into old wineskins.”

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Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• On Outrage & Virality:

  “The ones who hate something, they comment, they talk about it... it drives up the exposure.” – John (02:48)

• On Church Scandal:

  “The more you talk about it, the bigger it gets.” – John (05:16)

• On Authentic Christian Living:

  “Every era of church, God raised up certain voices... flawed people who correctly served his purpose for their generation.” – Arvin (14:05)

• On Value of All People:

  “You are not better than Kylie Jenner… God loves that person as much as he loves you.” – John (17:43)

• On Private Devotion:

  “Can you serve God and love God privately?” – Arvin (37:00)

• On Maturity:

  “Our prayer for you is that all of us are on a journey of maturity… Lord, help me mature, and this person who I feel a certain way about, Lord, help them mature.” – John (41:41)

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Segment Guide (Timestamps)

• Kylie Jenner & outrage marketing: 00:14–04:00
• Victory Church and negative coverage: 04:00–07:00
• Pastor Paul’s End Times series: 05:19–07:47
• Christian media spats (Forest Frank/Jelly Roll): 08:05–10:42
• Theme park/church analogy: 10:52–14:05
• Church leaders & human frailty: 14:11–19:00
• Scripture, wisdom, and motives: 19:00–24:49
• Engaging culture vs. creating “Christian versions”: 24:49–26:21
• Mixed motives in ministry (Philippians): 26:23–29:00
• Worship, production, and focus: 29:09–34:45
• Scandals, idolatry and the “remnant”: 34:45–39:45
• Maturity and personal devotion: 36:50–41:07
• Practical: praying for others & spiritual growth: 41:07–end

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Conclusion

The episode’s candid, honest conversation balances humor with gravity as John and Arvin challenge listeners to avoid superficial judgments, resist the traps of outrage and celebrity, and seek maturity in Christ. They urge believers to focus on encountering Jesus—a life rooted in private devotion and wisdom over public performance—and to respond to scandals, disagreements, and disappointments with humility and prayer.

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Transcript

[A]

Hello. What's up, everyone? Welcome back.

[B]

My name is John.

[A]

My name's Arvind.

[B]

This is behind the scenes of our best days, season 10ds. Season 10 season Diaz. Well, hey. So we just heard. Okay. We just heard Kylie Jenner came out with a song.

[A]

God bless her.

[B]

Okay. Also, this podcast is. There is spiritualness behind it, but Kylie Jenner, the Kardashians. Kris Jenner has a daughter named Kylie Jenner, and she is very famous for, like, makeup and whatever.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But she released a song and a whole marketing campaign around this song. And it's. And it's like, it's bad. The writing is not great.

[A]

It's tough.

[B]

It's. Yeah. But anyways. And so at this release, explain how this release happened.

[A]

So all I know about it, I don't know a lot, but all I know about it is that Kris Jenner, who is the mom of this family, is very smart.

[B]

There's a point to this.

[A]

She figured out how to, in today's media, like, framework in 2025, putting stuff out and saying, here's my song, I hope you like. It doesn't work. You have to have. You have to, like, pretend to date somebody. People do that at movie releases, like, whatever. To make it short, basically, she knew she had to use, like, rage and outrage to get people to spread the news about the song. So the marketing of the song is people who look like immigration agents arresting Kylie over the hood or the back of her Rolls Royce car, which is insane. It's very tone deaf for the moment when people are losing family members because of that. And that's a whole other issue.

[B]

And it sparked an outrage on social media.

[A]

Some people are like, how dare you do this? And they spread the news about the song accidentally.

[B]

So, and that's what we're getting to is that in the algorithm of today, if something is talked about. You've heard of the term there's no such thing as negative press, right? Well, I think that there is. But if the goal is. Because everything is based on AI and algorithm, if the goal is I want to get X out to the world and X or fill in the blank, whatever it is, my song, my song, my movie or whatever. What the. I wouldn't say the. I guess you could say the brilliance of Kris Jenner is, okay, let's spark outrage over it and get everybody. Everyone talking about it. Even if they hate my daughter.

[A]

Especially if they do. They're the best ones. They're the best.

[B]

The best ones who hate something. They comment, they talk about it, and all it does is it drives up the exposure of the song.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

It's what Taylor Swift says is, to everyone who spreads all this hate online about me, thank you. You're making me more famous. Because the more you hate something and you get on social media and you talk about how much you hate it, it just drives more attention to it.

[A]

Yeah, that's right.

[B]

And so anyways, what I'm saying is, is that sometimes as believers, sometimes we get on this thing and we're like, we hate this, we hate that, or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and we start bashing something. All you're doing is exposing itself.

[A]

That's right. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

And so anyways, that's just kind of a tidbit in 2025 is before you really jump in on something and let everyone know how you feel about something, just go, what is the end goal of this? Is the end goal to get this thing that I hate more exposure?

[A]

Right.

[B]

Okay, well, then do it. Yeah, but if you're like, wait, how is this. How is this working against me? Well, then chill out and don't care.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

You know what I'm saying?

[A]

I do.

[B]

It's kind of like, okay, so this podcast, it talks about the behind the scenes of the church of ministry of Victory. And, you know, Victory has been around for over 40 years, and there's been so many times where, you know, we were getting bashed on the news. Whenever we did church on the rooftop after Pastor Paul and Pastor Ashley, they spoke to the news and they're like, hey, we really feel like we're supposed to do this. People are in their cars. It's protected. The people that hated Victory so much, they bashed on Victory. Well, people who lived in other states saw the hatred towards Victory, and they go, wait, there's a church doing church outside. Then they moved to Tulsa to attend Victory. Yeah.

[A]

I know one family in particular who moved here.

[B]

I know several families that. That happened. And it all became. Because in spite of, you know, and so it's just interesting how the world works.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And then on the flip side of that is that anytime someone has said something negative about Victory, you know, our lead team has told people, hey, just don't talk about it.

[A]

Yeah, fair enough.

[B]

The more you talk about it, the bigger it gets.

[A]

Totally. Yeah.

[B]

And all that type of things. But I think it also brings up a unique thing of the era in which we are living at in 2025 of, you know, like, people needing to care about Everything. And voice their opinion on social media about things. And, you know, Pastor Paul has been in this sermon series called the End Times. And initially what he talked about was, you know, there's three approaches to the end times. You can live in fear, you can live in faith, or you can be careless. Careless doesn't mean, like, living careless. It means, like, I don't care about the end times.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like, out of sight, out of mind.

[A]

Right, right, right.

[B]

You know, it's kind of like, oh, yeah, Jesus is returning. Sure. They've been saying that for a thousand years. They've been saying it since. Since the Bible.

[A]

Book of Acts.

[B]

Yeah, since the Book of Acts. Jesus is returning soon, and none of us know the day or the hour, you know, even though people claim that they do on TikTok, you know, and then. And then he doesn't show up.

[A]

That's such a. I heard about that. That's so weird.

[B]

Yeah. Very odd. But anyways, it is. It's the point of. To where you're kind of like, okay, yeah, it is not about. So. So those are the three approaches to the end times.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What Pastor Paul has been preaching on. And we would love for you guys to tune into Victory's YouTube and to listen to it, especially week one, which happened a few weeks ago. Week one was basically like, hey, these are the three approaches to the end times. And the main question is, as a believer, how do you live in the end times? He wasn't there to argue eschatology. He wasn't there to argue the. He just was like, hey, this is the Bible. These are the signs of the end times. And there was nine of them that were pretty harrowing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, like, lots of deception. There will be people who are committed to, quote unquote, the way of the Bible that are going to leave the way of the Bible and still claim that they are followers of God.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

There's going to be. And those are just things. But basically it was, how. How do I live in the end times?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And in 2025, we know that there's probably. You know, I would love for the rapture to happen during this podcast.

[A]

That would be great.

[B]

You know, I look over and Arvin's gone and I'm still here. That'd be an issue. Yeah. Yeah, that'd be a true. Behind the scenes. And I go. And I go. And that was our last podcast. Yeah.

[A]

That's our series finale.

[B]

That's our series finale. Oh, man.

[A]

But we start one in heaven, then.

[B]

Oh, yeah, that's true. God would totally do it.

[A]

But we just do it over Zoo. That's.

[B]

You go, hey, John, is it hot there? Oh, my God, I'm kidding.

[A]

That's funny.

[B]

But anyways. Yeah, but kind of like dive into of what that looks like of, you know, and we also. And we're bringing these things up because we just love to talk behind the scenes of ministry of church and all that type of stuff and just the world of where we are at, you know. A few weeks ago, Forest Frank made a post which. What he does in his music, my kids love it and I think he is such an outstanding person of God. He made this post about him not attending the Dove Awards. Right. Was it the Dove Awards?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it was just a personal conviction. And then it sparked this outrage of people being like, oh, yeah, sure, you'll make all this money off of stuff, but you won't attend something. And his whole thing was like, oh, wow. And then Jelly Roll, which sounds like a funny name, but he is an actual artist and he's a phenomenal artist. And he has a powerful story of him being in prison, getting out of prison, encountering God, and he's going through a personal, like, revival in his life. Even though he's got some songs where he sings with country stars and all this stuff. And, you know, everyone is walking out their own salvation. But he is still. He still has a powerful testimony. He sings a song, hard Fought Hallelujah, with Brandon Lake. I think him, Brandon Lake and John Baptiste actually performed that song at the Dove Awards. And it was awesome and it was powerful and it was a very moving moment. He actually made a post against Forest Frank in this whole thing. And then, you know, and I know this sounds like we're not just here to talk about gossip. There's a point to this. Well, then, Forest Frank rebuttal and kind of you. What did he say?

[A]

The video I saw, he was like, well, Jelly Roll said, you won't go to these shows, but you'll collect the money that you make from the songs that you write for Jesus.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

And Forest Frank said, well, you don't know what I'm doing with that money. I'm not going to tell you if I'm giving most of it away, if I live off 90% of it or 10% of it and give away most of it. So he kind of came back with like, well, what if I'm not taking this money for myself?

[B]

Yeah. And then he also said, but I would love to have this conversation, you know, in person. Or on the phone. I'm a safe place. And it was just a beautiful thing. I think we can totally admire both of the characters of Jelly Roll and Forrest Frank. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We can admire, like, what they've done for the Christian community. But in saying that, as you zoom back and you look at all of this, that was what we were kind of talking through.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Oh, man. So I have to preface this with, like, I'm a nobody with an opinion, so anything I say, please.

[B]

And you work at Victory?

[A]

I do. I work on staff Victory. I'm happy to have been here. Coming up on seven years. I grew up at Victory. I came to know the Lord at Victory and have been mentored by the leadership at Victory for a very long time. Having said that, my views do not represent maybe what Victory would think about this stuff. I think it's a bummer. A real gentle way to approach this is if, like, if you went to a theme park. Disney World, Frontier City, anywhere at Disney World, they work so hard to create this magical experience. They want you to go there, pay a lot of money, and as you're walking around, you're enjoying what they want you to enjoy, and you're not seeing the things they like. They have paint colors that are specific, strategic so that you don't notice certain things. You never see trash lying around because they have an underground city. All the trash goes down there. They've created this magical experience.

[B]

So that.

[A]

When you leave, you're like, wow, that was awesome. I can't wait to come back. It was so great. And I think the modern moment we're in with Big C church in the west especially, is that we. We found. We saw some opportunities to grow the message, and we began to use them, which was great. But then most people took the shortcut of let us, let our. And I actually am grateful to say I firmly believe Victory isn't this way. And that's another reason I'm really glad to be here. But it became the trend to live by those methods, to live by the.

[B]

Methods of, like, what the world has.

[A]

Set for virality fame.

[B]

So being viral.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You just need attention.

[A]

Yeah, that's right.

[B]

I need attention.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so. And I know that we start off on Kendall Jenner, and we hopped at Forest Frank, and we're now in church, but I'll come back to that. Yeah, yeah, we'll come back to it, but we're just. We're just helping it.

[A]

You know, it's essentially like if you went, what's starting to happen? Because it's not a one time visit to a magical place that's made up. Because it is a real thing. Because worship is a real thing. Because God is real. If you fear God and know God and have a firm, ever deepening relationship with him, eventually the park closes, so to speak. And so allegorically. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And eventually stuff has to happen. There has to be maintenance, there has to be work on the park itself. And so if you zoom out from our moment in the 21st century and if you read books like Water from a Deep Well, Greg Stitzler, he writes a really good quick history of the church over the last 2,000 years. And what you notice is that every era of church, God raised up certain voices. And the difficult thing to understand, the thing that kind of ruins the magic of church, the made up, like, oh, everyone here is so perfect. And everyone's doing, you know, the thing that ruins that is realizing that God raised up flawed people who correctly served his purpose for their generation.

[B]

God raised up flawed people who correctly served his purpose for their generation.

[A]

And then they also did other stuff that wasn't his purpose.

[B]

And then they also did other stuff that wasn't his purpose.

[A]

And each century, if you look, there was a heresy involved. There are things Martin Luther did that we are forever grateful for.

[B]

Yeah. The Protestant reformation.

[A]

Yes. The 1500s, the 95, 99th, December, whatever. When he put that on the church door. There are other things he said that you don't know about.

[B]

It's true.

[A]

Because that's great.

[B]

So wait a second. Are you telling me that Martin luther's not perfect?

[A]

100%. And that's.

[B]

Wait, hold on. Are you also telling me that King David isn't perfect 100%. Yeah, the man after God's own heart.

[A]

Exactly. Yeah. So, but what.

[B]

Hold on, hold on. Yeah, I'm being facetious right now. What did King David do that was so bad?

[A]

Yeah, dude, it's a laundry list. It's crazy.

[B]

So I think what we're getting at is that whenever you elevate a human being, we're actually not here to talk about the other people that we mentioned.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's how you elevate.

[B]

There is this thing to where it's like there is human beings that are used by God for their generation, they're accomplishing the purpose of God.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then they do some other things that aren't the purpose of God.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then when they do them, we as believers go, no. Yeah, you are bad.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Or I don't believe in God anymore. Because if God was real, you wouldn't have done this.

[A]

This is where it gets really complex. Because if a. If a child walks into Disney World and Mickey Mouse takes his hat off of his head and it's just a guy that looks like me, that kid is heartbroken and goes, this place isn't what I thought it was. And that's most people who come to know Christ in a context where they're responding to virality, they're responding to fame. Hey, this church is popping off. You should be here, because this church is popular and this is the new place to be and take photos and Instagram of being at this church, whatever. So what's happening is the flaws within the model that we have used, even though it's also serving God's purpose for our generation, in many ways, those are starting to become more obvious as the landscape of fame and media explodes. It's including the landscape. So what I'm saying is, if you look at every century, from the time that Jesus ascended into heaven until now, if each of them had wonderful elements about them, they also solved problems that the generation before them had created. And they also, because of some of their heresy, they created issues for the next generation. And so what's happening? I think, I'm guessing that if the rapture doesn't happen for another 500 years or whatever, and historians and church historians in the year 23 and 2400, 2500, when they look back on the 21st century Western Church, at least the first 25 years of it, who knows what happens from here on out? Chances are the heresy that they will point out and talk about the way I'm talking about certain heresies of the 1500s, they will say, oh, yeah, they dip their cup in the fame and fortune place a little too much, and it created some weird issues. So this is where Jelly Roll has a point. Forrest Frank has a point. Kylie Jenner needs to pay her bills. You know what I mean? It's like, I can't imagine. So what's great about it if you can mature past that and go, you know, these are all people that God loves. Not any better than any of them.

[B]

That's a good. Yeah, those two things. These are all people that God loves.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I'm not any better than them. Those of you who are listening, this is gonna hurt. You are not better than Kylie Jenner. Right. You are not better than the person that you hate online. You're not better than them. Yeah, the whole John me, I'm not better than them.

[A]

Yeah, same.

[B]

Yikes. I know that stings, but that is so healthy for us to hear and is like, we're not better than them. God loves that person as much as he loves you, even if you have tithed your brains out.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And you have never missed a church service. You have memorized the Bible.

[A]

It gets real. Sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off.

[B]

No, he loves. He loves the thief on the cross as much as he loves you. And the thief on the cross, like we said in our other episodes, like. And we've done a production on it with. Was it Son of Heaven? What was it?

[A]

I think that was Masterpiece. We had all three of them up there.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And Masterpiece was a production that we wrote and it was with great music, you know, just to say. And it was powerful.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But like, the thief on the cross that Jesus was like, I will now see you in paradise. I'll see you in heaven. He loved him just as much as he loved John, the beloved.

[A]

Right.

[B]

John, the guy that wrote the Bible.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Who was like, I'm known as the guy that Jesus loves.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Jesus also loved the thief on the cross. Yeah. Who didn't follow him until the very end.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. But it's an unfortunate percentage. Like, very few people are gonna. The Bible even says this. Very few people are gonna, like, see that. See what you just said and allow God to mature them to that place. Because it's a. We're approaching a time where knowledge of Scripture apart from God's wisdom can be very harmful.

[B]

And so knowledge of Scripture apart from God's wisdom can be harmful. You are saying that people can say scripture and twist it.

[A]

Yeah. Or what are you saying? What I'm saying is they will earnestly be quoting one scripture back and forth in an argument with other people. There are all these arguments online.

[B]

And.

[A]

They'Re being sincere and they think that they're like, in the Right. Right. And what's ultimately happening is it's creating more discord and quarreling. And Paul writes about this. He's like, in the last days, there's going to be this thing. You look at 2 Timothy 3, he talks about this list, and ironically, it matches up a lot of it with what Jesus says in Matthew 24 that Pastor Paul preached a couple weeks ago at the end times sermon. The signs of the end. And then what Paul says in second Timothy are very, very similar. And it says a lot of people will have a form of godliness but deny its power.

[B]

They will have a form of godliness but deny Its power.

[A]

So what that means to me, as I understand Scripture, it says in so many scriptures to talk about, to get to the conclusion.

[B]

No, no, say it. Keep working.

[A]

Basically what it comes down to is it's in Philippians 2, where it says, for God is working in you, giving you the desire to obey him and. And the power to do what pleases him. So part of the Christian life is about having the grace of God, the power of God enabling you to look at life and do things, but you mature into that place. Acts 14, it says, we enter living by God's power through many trials. So what that tells me is a large, vast majority of believers are still in the stage where they are not yet. Like, they haven't endured the trials that they are intended to in order to be trustworthy with God's power. So they are skipping that process and going, I can go viral by saying this. I can get attention by doing this. I can. And what they really want. And it's not a bad thing. I myself did this as well. When you get into the faith, initially, your motives aren't necessarily pure. You may not even know that. It may be subconscious. I come into the thing, I'll use myself as an example because it's much safer than talking about other people. But the motivation was, man, I really. I want to be a good person, and I want people to like me a lot. And they really seem to like whoever's on that platform. So how about I figure out how to use my gifts and talents to get on that platform, to get a microphone if I could. Thank God. I can't sing, but I'm so grateful to not be musically gifted. But the people who are, it's so difficult to separate and distinguish their talent, enabling others to experience the presence of God and then their own Christian maturity, their own Christian life. So this is where the magic kind of goes away. And I don't want to do that. For people who, my wife included, loves worship music, loves getting into the presence of God in a church building with other believers, especially if you go to more. More populated cities with a lot more strange, atmospheric, spiritual conditions. I'm talking about, like, major metropolitan areas where the majority of people are not people of faith. Going to a church in a city like that is so refreshing because everywhere you go, you feel lonely. Tulsa's a little different because it's not. It's just whoever you meet. Tulsa Rusalum pretty much, yeah. It's like, it's not. Do you go to church? Like, what church do you go to? You know? Yeah. So all that to say, because worshiping God with worship music is so beautiful and valid, the people who, as scripture says, worship God in spirit and truth are going to have to distinguish themselves. They're going to have to have. When you're in the presence of God, a symptom of that is you have wisdom. Because it says in Scripture, if you lack wisdom, it's in James. You lack wisdom. Ask God. What's interesting to me that I've never heard anyone talk about, and hopefully it'll happen in the future. In First Corinthians, the first chapter, two separate times, God says, or Paul writes that God made Jesus to be the wisdom of God.

[B]

God made Jesus to be the.

[A]

So he's saying, the wisdom of the world is this. They're all saying this. They're saying, this is how. This is how you do it. This is how you go viral. This is how you get attention. You want your church to grow. This is how you do it.

[B]

You to want.

[A]

You want your faith to be popular. This is how you do it. We gotta do it this way. This is the way we do it. Yeah. And they don't notice that. What they're really doing is copying the trend that ungodly secular individuals are doing in order to. So what's happening is, oh, God say. Is the pornographication of Christianity. And so what it's saying is like, here's this sacred act that I'm now gonna put on camera so that you can see how good I am at loving God, at being a Christian. So that's a. Taking a worldly thing, putting a Christian version of it out and saying, we're good, we're doing it. What I'm saying, though, is there are people who can sincerely enjoy Christian media, and it does further their faith. What I'm also saying is there is a limit to that because the vehicle used to arrive there only lasts so long.

[B]

The vehicle used to arrive there.

[A]

Yeah. Where it's like, we want a separate. Separate Christian halftime show.

[B]

A separate Christian halftime.

[A]

We want a separate Christian version of everything. Christian shoes, Christian clothes.

[B]

And if you want a separate halftime show, that's not bad. We all. We understand. But there is. What he. What Arvin is getting to is. You said there is a limit.

[A]

I'm saying that if you. You cannot create heaven on earth by ignoring the hell on earth. And that's what I see a lot of our beloved believers in the United States doing. Where it's like, let's separate from the world and let's create a Christian utopia. And I go, that's great. Go join a convent. Go be a monk.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But someone's gonna have to be sent by God into this culture.

[B]

Someone's gonna have to be sent by God into this current culture that we are in.

[A]

So if I'm honest and I'm just Arvind, a 32 year old loser who knows nothing and I don't represent Victory's opinion and we probably shouldn't post this episode, but what I'm really saying is as long as the Christian majority is trying to create a separate Christian version of everything, they are operating as an immature believer. Even if they have been Christians for 30, 40 years. Because mature believers are those who've spent enough time with God to be empowered by his grace to step into these demonic places.

[B]

Well, it's Paul going to Rome 100%.

[A]

Not everyone could do that. So what's interesting is Paul in Philippians 1, he writes there are Christian leaders, preachers, he doesn't name them, but he goes, there are a bunch of these guys who are using the gift of God on their life. They do have a gift of God on their life to preach and minister the gospel. They are doing it out of vain ambition to make money. And then he says, and yet I rejoice that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is being preached.

[B]

Yeah. That is in the Bible.

[A]

So he has this, this, this mature.

[B]

He has an ability not to just trash on that person and also to. He may not understand because God will work in mysterious ways. We've heard that said. I don't think that's a. It says that God's ways are mysterious.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Even though people say God works in mysterious ways, I don't think that's a straight on scripture. But God will use anyone to work through. And so even if the vessel is like what the Apostle Paul was saying in the Bible, even if the vessel who is preaching the word of God is doing it like what Apostle Paul said out of vain ambition.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

God can still use that message.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To reach people.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

And so what, what Arvin is saying is Arvind is saying the Apostle Paul has grown to a maturity in his faith where he can go, man, I am so grateful the Gospel is being preached. I'm not going to get online and bash right. X, Y and Z Pastor. Because I don't agree with what they're doing. Yeah, I'm rejoicing. Are people getting saved? Are people getting baptized? Are they getting discipled? Are people learning how to win others to Jesus Christ?

[A]

That's right. Yeah.

[B]

To God be the glory.

[A]

There it is. And you have to consider the context, because it's Philippians. It's a letter to this church. Which means if he's addressing that issue in the very first chapter of his letter, surely this is a group of people we can assume, we can deduce or figure out that they are having issues with that very problem where they are, or else he wouldn't have put.

[B]

It in the letter.

[A]

Why is he addressing it if they didn't have that problem? So they're pointing fingers at, you're doing this just to make money. You're just. And there are a lot of movements that are trying to, like, call out the church on that. And I've watched those documentaries and whatever. What I'm saying is, even if your hospital only has three stars, you still need a hospital.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know what I mean? Like, it's.

[B]

Wait, wait, hold on. Wait. How does that connect again? Sorry.

[A]

Even if the church is not everything that you wish it was.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Even if there are charlatans and liars and losers, God is still real.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And so this is where we can, like, thankfully land the plane of there are people whose faith is immature and they got famous too quickly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they don't know how to navigate that. And thankfully, they're going to seek out leadership, hopefully. And whatever. There are church movements that are entirely rooted in vain ambition and becoming a big deal and a big entity because the persons in charge need validation and whatever. The reason, I believe that Victory has endured and will continue to endure is because while we have participated in certain church trends, we've also started some. I say we the church. Victory has. And then also, that is not. And I can say this for a fact, knowing what I know, having been here for so long, that is not the driving motivation. And so when the driving motivation is the presence of God, encountering Jesus, really knowing him very, very well, worshiping in spirit and in truth, when you have that, there's nothing wrong with beautiful lights and wonderful instruments and big, like, decorations. Like, none of that comes down to.

[B]

The heart and the motive, 100%. So you guys remember that old song, I'm Going Back to the heart of Worship? Yeah, yeah, yeah it's all about you.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Like the. The most amazing time I sang that song was in the Barclays Center.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Beautiful.

[B]

The Barclays center, which is located in.

[A]

It's in Brooklyn, New York. Yeah.

[B]

Brooklyn. Where the who play.

[A]

Brooklyn Nets.

[B]

Yeah. Buddy with crazy for that one. Jay.

[A]

Jay.

[B]

Jay Z. Jay Z. Sorry, I'm looking for Arvin to clap back because. So, anyways, so the Barclays center in New Jersey. Jay Z is an owner of the Brooklyn Nets. That's just some lore on the side that has nothing to do with his podcast.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Hillsong conference with all of the lights, the moving LED walls, everything. Like, the production was at an 11 out of 10.

[A]

Beautiful.

[B]

This was a Hillsong conference. Beautiful. And then they sang I'm Coming Back to the Heart of Worship. Beautiful. And there were. There were some people in the lobby who argued. The irony of that.

[A]

Huh.

[B]

Because they were like. And it's. And pastors would pay to attend this conference to get poured into. But they. But I think some of the pastors, you know, they were from a smaller church. Obviously, every church was smaller than Hillsong. And they were just like, oh, it's funny that they sang that song in the last session, yet they have this massive LED wall. And it. And it actually made me upset at these people who were talking about it in the lobby. I just wanted to punch them because I was like, guys, yes. The heart of worship. That song is powerful. They're singing about the heart of worship.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yes, they do have led. Yes. They do have these lights. Yes, they have. They can be excellent in production.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

But that's not the motive.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Exactly. And you could smell that that wasn't the motive from when Joel Houston was singing that song. At a certain point, they turned off all the lights.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they just made it very simple.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And you heard thousands of people singing it. It was like, yeah. Oh, yeah. You can be amazing at production. You can write some awesome songs and you can crank out incredible albums and have, you know, a really hype conference simultaneously. As long as the motive is what you said a few moments ago.

[A]

Encountering Jesus.

[B]

Encountering Jesus. Yeah.

[A]

The presence of.

[B]

The presence of God. Repentance.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely.

[B]

You know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The worshiping in spirit and in truth.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And in truth. And I think that that's what. And I know that we're going on a bunch of rabbit trails, but we're circling back to when Pastor Paul was like, how do you live in the end times when you make your life about that? All of these other branches of the tree, it doesn't. You know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's kind of like, okay, interesting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I find myself saying that a lot. I go, hmm, interesting. My life goes on.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

My kids have got football practice at 6:30pm yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

As opposed to me being so wrapped up in he said, she said, this person on this social media platform, or I gotta be seen here. Or that's just wearing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I don't see how, like a faith could be built on that, you know, or even, you know, if. If my. And there are certain people and I. And I hope we can all get here where we can really admire someone on a stage who speaks or someone who sings, we can admire and go, wow, God is using. God has given them a purpose for their generation in this time. And then if you see them or meet them off stage and they're rude, or maybe they don't say hi to you, or maybe they should have tipped the waiter, and I'm a waiter at a restaurant and they didn't tip. Yeah, yeah. That's a poopy move. It doesn't mean that what they speak.

[A]

Right.

[B]

What they said. Let's even say. I'm gonna, I'm gonna even say this. A scandal.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

A scandal hits that church and you go, man, I really liked that guy. I'm going to throw out all of his sermons.

[A]

Right. Ridiculous. Yeah.

[B]

You know why? Because the word of God can still be preached from a vessel that God chooses to use. And that word can still be powerful, even though this individual may make some mistakes.

[A]

Yeah. There's no other kind of vessel.

[B]

It's called chew the meat, spit out the bone, baby.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[B]

You know what I'm saying? And then it helps protect you, your heart from, number one, worshiping someone. Number two, gossiping about someone.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Even if you have every right to gossip about them, because guess what? Boo. You also mess up. You're just not on a platform like these under other individuals.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So overall, I'm like, we're approaching a time where the people who. The antidote, like it has always been for every one of these generations and centuries of the Christian heritage is the remnant of people whose genuine delight is experiencing and knowing God. They will have wisdom from God and then they will choose well. And so there's also an element where ramping up this media thing, it actually works in God's favor. Because the people who. Going back to what you said about LED walls and execution and excellent production, like the logic of the person who says, no, that stuff, we shouldn't use, that stuff is to say, God can only handle the really, really, like, unprepared version of me. We don't need to have excellence in it. That's just so silly because that's not how he created things. It's more so saying if you create an idol of that and say, I'm going to neglect the presence of God so that I can have these other things. That's when you run into an issue. And there is a lot of that. And so there are a lot of those people are actually doing God a favor because they are further distinguishing what it means to genuinely know God and enjoy whatever version of worship you have at that time, apart from these weird, you know, vain ambitions that exist. So that's just an opportunity to mature. So overall, it's about God. It's about knowing God. It'll always be that way. Whether there are devil wards or not, whether, you know, the media, all that stuff's going to collapse and it's starting to. And it's imploding on itself. And so there will be people who.

[B]

Their main motive was to get noticed or to get fame. And they maybe have not said that, but it will become evident in the times where those things begin to, yeah.

[A]

Yeah, like, can you serve God and love God privately? Can you. Can you enjoy him? This is the luxury of being an anonymous, unknown person, obscure person like myself. Because I had to reconcile this in my mid-20s. Like, do I care to love and know God, even though I'll never be on the platform, I'll never preach sermons, I'll never travel and be John Bevere 2.0. I had to really reconcile that during my time here and to say, yeah, in fact, I think I can love him more. In fact, I think I can enjoy Scripture more. In fact, I think my heart is reaching a level of tender softness that it couldn't have when the prior motivation was, God is a means to an end whereby I become a known entity in the Christian world. So it's pathetic to talk about now, but that was the whole drive. And I don't shame that kid either, because he was 14 and he wanted to be.

[B]

It's what you said. It's that word that you said, maturity.

[A]

That's right. Yeah.

[B]

And I think that I interrupted you.

[A]

No, you're good. I'm trying to land the episode here, too, where eventually you'll hit a wall in your faith journey, where the initial incentive and motivation for becoming a believer, in which in this generation might have been attention online or attention in general or validation of your identity or, you know, whatever, that's going to be moved away and the people who can endure that and continue and ramp up seeking God in private during that time, then I think we'll see some stuff happen on God's behalf on the kingdom of God's behalf. That will be remarkable and beautiful. And I wonder if I don't know how this will work. Hopefully God does. I wonder if it will be mostly anonymous and we won't know who it was. There won't be anyone raising their hand and being like, I've started this ministry. We need the people who do are raised by God, raised up by God to run ministries and run churches and do that. We need that. Absolutely. But I wonder if the big, big, big revivals that we're all talking about are not going to be the over.

[B]

The revolution will not be televised.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wonder if people will be so. Oh, boy. God help me. I wonder if it'll be so genuine and pure that there's no cameras in there. And I hope so. I hope and I think it's happening. You know, I'll stop here. There's a moment where Elijah is complaining to God because Jezebel wants to kill him. Just go look this up. We don't have time to get to it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. He runs to the cave and he's kind of depressed.

[A]

He's like, God, I'm the only one serving you. I'm the only one. And God's like, I have 7,000 other people that you don't know about that have not bowed down to those idols. And so what I would love to see for myself personally, God kind of checks Elijah. Yeah. He just goes, there's a lot you don't know about that. There would be a large amount of people who know God intimately who are operating in his power in their career, in their family, in their parenting, in their marriages. And they are not wearing Christian branding on their forehead, but they are exhibiting Christian character in their hands and feet. And that, I think, can make me emotional. I get really excited about that. And so thank you for watching today. If this episode got posted, I don't know.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well. And I think that our prayer for you is that all of us are on a journey of maturity. Yeah. And let's also, you and me, those of you guys who are watching, let's also, as soon as we hear something about someone that we either looked up to that is either, oh, this sounds weird and corny, but like a famous believer. And it could be someone who is a CEO, a pastor, a singer, and they fallen.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

They have. There's a scandal or something. I want. Our first response is to pray for that individual.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We obviously want to pray for the people involved, the people who were hurt in that situation. Yes. But also pray for that individual. And if there's someone that maybe you know, and maybe it wasn't a serious scandal, but you're just like, ah, this individual that you've probably talked trash about, which I've done the same thing. Let's ask God. Lord, we pray for a maturing in that individual.

[A]

Excellent.

[B]

And then you say, God, I pray for a maturing in me.

[A]

Yeah, dude.

[B]

Because I do believe that God, Jesus even says, you can't put new wine into old wineskins. Now, new wine is a maturing of that wine. That's right, it's a maturing. Right. Old wineskins is people who go, well, I've got it figured out. And this person doesn't. And God can't put new, fresh revelation, wisdom, anointing, grace, which new wine stands for, freedom, truth. He can't put that into someone who refuses to mature. So Lord, help me mature. And this person who I feel a certain way about, Lord, help them mature.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That way when you meet 15 year old Arvins or 20 year old Arvins and they're saying, I want to do this and I want to do that, you go, awesome. Well, you know what? We pray for God's maturity in your life.

[A]

Beautiful.

[B]

And that's how you can say it. Hey, thank you guys so much for joining us today. We love you guys.

[A]

Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time.

[B]

See you next time. Bye.

[A]

Sam.