← Victory Church: Paul Daugherty
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- [00:10]
A
Hello. Hi, everyone. Welcome back.
- [00:12]
B
My name is John.
- [00:13]
A
My name is Arvin. And this is behind the scenes of.
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B
Our best day, season 10. 10. And it is beautiful fall weather today.
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A
Thank God. Finally.
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B
We love drizzly.
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A
Yes.
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B
We love overcast. Cold, cloudy, cloudy.
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A
Heater on.
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B
Heater on.
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A
Yeah.
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B
You know. Yes. That is something that the older I get, the more I appreciate. And I'm like, am I a vampire? That's my first question.
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A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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B
No, I'm like, maybe I should just go, like, live in the Puget Sound of Washington.
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A
You should. Yeah. Perfect place for that.
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B
Yeah. No, that's Victory campus.
- [00:56]
A
Yeah.
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B
Three.
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A
Yeah, that's it. I would love to.
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B
Lord knows they need it.
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A
No, sure. No, really.
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B
No, but I'm. It is something that my. Like, there's the difference between happiness and joy. You know that, like, happiness is an emotion. Joy is something that you're like, oh, this is something from God. It's a decision. Joy is a choice. We call it Joyce.
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A
Yeah. Joyce Meyer.
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B
Joyce Meyer.
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A
That's where that name comes from.
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Joy is a choice.
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A
Thanks for watching Joyce.
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B
Yes. No, thank you.
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A
She's Meyer's biggest commenter.
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B
But when it comes to. But I feel the emotion of happy in the fall.
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A
Same. Especially when it first cools down and it's not hot every single time. You exist. Yeah.
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B
The emotion of happy actually leaves when it is hot. And I'm like, it's September. It should no longer be hot.
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A
Yeah. There were days this month, early October, that were disgusting.
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B
Hot. Yeah.
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A
Nasty.
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B
Yeah. And when you're older, you're like, I'm not trying to be wet.
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A
Yeah. I don't like sweat. Like, I hate that word, but yeah, no, sure. I sweat way too fast.
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B
Yes.
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A
I hate it.
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B
Yeah. And I don't know if you guys are like this, but like kids, you guys would play. This was something that I'm realizing with my kids. You guys would play at recess or lunch, then you would come in and you did not have bo. Yeah, but there's a certain age where BO spikes.
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A
Sixth grade, seventh grade.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Yeah. Eighth grade.
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B
I noticed it in my middle boy, Jude. I'm like, you are funky, bro. You have to go take a shower. And he's like, I didn't sweat too much. I'm like, sweat enough. Yeah. You smell like a three old week used diaper. Go shower.
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A
Yeah, yeah.
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B
You know, but Monty, he's still young enough to.
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He's like, I don't know what you're like.
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I don't.
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A
Yeah.
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But I also Talk to my daughter. And there's multiple times where I have to, you know, before. And my daughter would probably not like me for saying this, but, you know, she's in sixth grade, so it's that at that moment in time to where I always go, okay. Because she has great melanin, a nice brown skin.
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A
Praise God.
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She gets ashy if she doesn't do lotion.
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A
Sure.
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B
You know, And I'm like, your knees look like they've been used as a dry erase. An eraser on a chalkboard. I'm like, girl, you've been skidding on pavement anyway.
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A
Until I got, what's a chalkboard? At this. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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They're like, what is chalk? No. But I always have to go, okay, Blythe, we got lotion. We got deodorant. Okay. And the flyaways, you know, we gotta tame those back for the ponytail. Learn how to do a ponytail and stuff. But anyways, you go through checklists with your kids before they go to school. That way you're like, hey, we want you. I want you to have friends and, like, brush your teeth. So now I'm going through that with Jude, and Jude's like, my friends don't care if I smell. Yeah, you're probably right.
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A
Yeah, sure.
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B
It's just different with.
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A
Absolutely.
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B
It is fun. So anyways, well, this podcast talks about the behind the scenes. Not of kids hygiene, but of Victory Church.
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A
Imagine that podcast. I don't want a kids hygiene podcast. It probably does exist anyways.
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B
Yeah. In the world we live in today. And someone's calling.
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A
Yeah, sure.
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They're like this assignment in this season.
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A
It's Ms. Rachel, right. On YouTube or whatever. Oh, I guess I've never watched it, but, like, I'm sure that. Does Bluey. You guys watch Bluey? Is that Christian?
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B
I mean, I don't know. I don't know if it's not.
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A
It's a cool show. Ever. It's a cool show. I've seen it.
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B
But this is something that we. This is something that we do. We talk through things. Currently, we hear the buzz downstairs because Victory College is on break, so they're playing ping pong in the lobby. But it's just a great. It's great to be a part of the local church. And the local church has so many different things, you know, that help minister to people. Well, it also has a behind the scenes, where sometimes things are not what they seem. They kind of you. You know, there's kind of a. It's kind of a poop show. Sometimes, sure. It's reality, to be honest.
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A
Yeah. It's life.
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B
It's reality like everywhere else. Yeah. Humans work at churches and humans are not perfect. Perfect.
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A
That's right. Absolutely. Thank God.
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Thank God that God uses imperfect people.
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A
Yeah. It's the only kind.
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Yes. So, but anyways, some things that are interesting when people are working at a ministry and yet there's a dynamic of drama.
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A
Oh, sure.
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B
And what I mean by drama is, you know, you are currently like, this is an example. I'm not saying any names, but this is an example. Okay. So we're doing an outreach. This outreach is let's feed people. Okay. Which sounds like a great idea. Well, behind the scenes of that is there is someone who is over gathering the contents for what you put in the bags in order to feed people. Then there is the person who is putting that stuff in the bags.
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A
Oh, yeah.
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And then there's the distributor. And the distributor is like, I want to make sure. And they're asking certain people, like the people that are coming to get food. Hey, you're not going to take advantage of the system. You're not going to double dip, Are you sure, sure. You're not going to like. Okay. If you're single parent, you're in this line. If you are without a home, you're in this line. Because over here in this package, we also have blankets and we also can help you get connected to John 3:16 or the day center. But if you're with single parents, over here we have stuff for your kids.
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A
Yes.
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B
And the back. And so the bags are separate. So all that organization sounds great. Well, then the three people behind the scenes, they get upset at each other.
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A
Sure.
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Or it's like, well, they're not going fast enough. Well, the person who's over distribution, they are asking so many questions and it's not showing. The love of God.
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A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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B
You know what I mean?
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A
Sure, of course.
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B
And it's just a funny dynamic because you're like, guys, shut up. The goal is to minister to people.
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A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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B
But if I'm. If I was to act like I'm above that, that's not true. Because you know, Arvin knows. Arvin has seen me in those moments whenever we get into a production mode or a conference mode, whenever it is, we have Ryan Stafford, who's running the whole cast rehearsal with all of these people who are sacrificing their times. And then you have Ms. Jill Stafford, which is Ryan's wife, and they serve together. And they will get in fights in front of people. But they will also say, I love you, honey. I love you in front of people on the microphone. So it's really special. People kind of laugh at it. It's kind of a joke. But they will get in arguments because Jill is over choreography, and she will say Ryan's, like, within this next hour, we have to run this specific scene as many times as possible to nail the scene. So that way our audio, visual, technical people can hit the sound, the led, the ep, and all of the other content that has to be played with this song. And Jill's like, I need to just keep. Step aside with the front line. They're not hitting the choreography. So can we just run through this first part several times? And Ryan's like, you're taking away from the full thing, right? Both are right.
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A
Yeah.
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B
But it's causing dissension.
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A
Totally.
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B
And that is just part of several of the things that you have behind the scenes at a church.
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A
Totally. Yeah. We talked a couple weeks ago about, like, using Walt Disney World as a metaphor for what church has been the last few decades, which is wonderful. But I think the exciting thing is it's moving into a time period where when you imagine the people in the Mickey costumes going home, like, what is their evening like? Like, that's the era of the Christian faith, I think the west is going to head into. Which is exciting.
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B
You're seeing the behind the scenes of, like, the magic.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And when I say magic, we don't believe in magic.
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A
Not demonic witchcraft magic. Like, the. It's not like you can ignore and pretend it doesn't exist. I remember, like, walking into this building, the main auditorium, the first Sunday that it opened. It was in 2007. And I just remember being there, and the feeling felt magical. The room's packed, and everything that was happening was like, oh, my gosh, this is incredible. And, like, that room became my Disney World for the rest of, like, however long.
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B
And so people, when they come to a church, like Victory or a church that's maybe bigger.
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A
Yeah.
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B
They view it as a Disney World.
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A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you can criticize that if you're a PK or you're overly familiar with faith or the Christian game sometimes people play. But the reality is, I have stood in the lobby of that building. It happened a little over. It was. We were doing backpack giveaways in August.
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B
Yes.
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A
And this. I was walking into service late. I was late. Sorry. And it was a Saturday evening. It was the day that a backpack giveaway had been happening. And I'm walking in, I pass this woman and she's got two sons who are like, I don't want to exaggerate, like 11ft tall, probably 12ft tall. So tall.
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Just so tall.
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A
Huge, like muscular. I'm like, these are your sons? This is incredible. And I pass her. She's leaving as I'm walking into service, and I wonder, like, oh, they're not all going to a bathroom break. Like, they're leaving service. And I remember I walked past them, I opened the door and then I just paused. I'm not saying it was a God thing, but I just paused and was like, I wonder if they need anything. They couldn't have told that no one knows that I work here. I'm just walking around. I just turn around, I look at her and she goes, can I ask you a question? I go, yeah, sure. So we get to talking. She needs backpacks for her kids. Those are her two kids. And we get all that stuff worked out. I got connected to the right people and those are the folks I think about. I'm like, there is magic here. You walk in and yes, there are practical short term needs that are being met, but a person won't. They might forget what you gave them technically, but they won't forget that that was the place they got it. And so I believe in that. And I think it should continue. And I think it'll only increase with time. When you look at the climate of society outside of church, however, when that lady and her two sons join the church and 10 years go by and they've been through discipleship and they've been through. That's what this podcast is. That's what my life has been. And so what's exciting is I don't think the church should ever stop giving backpacks to families who need backpacks prior to going to school. But now we can include and take more territory, which is, can we talk about what it's like when the guy playing Mickey Mouse or the guy playing church employee or the woman playing pastor or whatever, when they go home? Let's include that stuff as well and talk about that too.
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Yeah.
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Because that's what a lot of people. That's what faith becomes eventually.
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Faith. That's what faith becomes eventually. And I think that's the whole purpose of, like this podcast the last 10 seasons was being like, you can still have faith and experience disappointment. And when I say disappointment. Disappointment with the church.
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A
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
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And when I say disappointment with the church, I mean disappointment with someone who says that they're a Christian and they work at a church.
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Yeah.
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You can still have faith when you pray to God for someone to be healed and then they pass away. Yeah, you can still have faith whenever you encounter. Oh, there's, oh, there's so much drama going at that church that God must not be real. You can still have faith.
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A
Yeah, exactly.
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You can still have faith whenever, you know, you go to a church and you're like, man, I really love this word and it's really ministering to me. And. And then voting season comes up and the pastor talks about the like, hey, vote the Bible. And you know, what I'm going to do is vote this. We didn't say that. We talked about voting for the Bible. But sometimes people will leave a church over that.
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Totally.
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Yeah. When it's like, okay, wait a second, wait a second. This has nothing to do with your political views. Everything comes back to the Bible.
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Yeah.
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And like, and I think that that's the whole purpose behind this podcast is to be like, is your. The goal is like, let's grow our faith.
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A
Yeah.
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Grow our faith in that and not be, you know, well, I got burnt out by this person or, well, my ex goes to the church and if my ex goes to the church, I can't receive from that church. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, you can still have faith after.
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A
A divorce for sure.
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You can still have faith after all these things.
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Yeah.
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You know, and I think that, you know, some people will say, well, that's really tricky. Well, that's why we're talking life. Yeah, that's life. Life is tricky.
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Yeah.
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You know, so anyways, I think that, I think that that's a really special thing, you know, and then the people who are experiencing the drama where, if you're involved in it, I always think it's a great thing to step back and look at what are we doing here?
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Yeah.
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And is this a. What's interesting is if there's certain ministries where there is beef between, like, family members. Like, if it's a family ministry, like Victory is a family ministry. Like it was. My mom and dad birthed it. And then obviously, you know, the kids got involved and all the kids are involved in ministry and, you know, there was drama behind, okay, who's going to be the pastor after. After, you know, my mom was pastoring, but she did not feel like it was a long term thing. She was like, it's going to be handed off. Well, that went to Paul, my brother. Now imagine, like the other siblings and how they felt because it was like, well, yeah, we feel called here.
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A
Right.
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B
But it's been unique to see God work in their life and how they are now pastors. You know, I'm serving my brother. I feel called to it. But my siblings are now pastoring their own church services. God is moving, and it's like, oh, God had a plan all along.
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A
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
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You know what I mean? And so it is unique. If you can just. That's. To me, that's fighting the good fight of faith.
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A
Absolutely.
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That's just staying planted and being like, nope, God has a plan for my life, and I'm going to trust in that plan for my life. And whenever you find yourself, if those of you and some of you who are listening or watching you may not work for a church or a ministry, but those who do, or those who have. Yeah, you have seen behind the scenes, and maybe you've been like, man, sure, this is not for me. Yeah, you know, I. Last week, you know, we did. Last week, I did a sermon that Arvin helped me with. And it was. The whole thing was small losses, big wins. That's right. That was the title of the sermon.
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Yeah.
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And the whole thing was talking about, you know, between Achan in the Bible, who hid things in the tent, and it was Joshua. And they lost. It was right after they. They conquered something with Jericho. They conquered Jericho, and it was literally a David versus Goliath moment. God showed up and Joshua, you know, won, and it was great. And they're honoring God. And then AI is this small city. Not chatgpt AI, but like, AI. And then. And the spy said, hey, just take a few thousand. You guys are gonna crush them. You know, like, send our JV team.
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Yeah.
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Well, they did. And then 39 guys die, and the rest of the army runs for their lives because AI beats the living poo out of them. And then Josh is like, what are we doing, God? And he's complaining and he's. And God's like, there's sin in the camp.
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Yeah.
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You need to call out people, clan from clan and from family to family, and find out, did anyone take things that were devoted to destruction from Jericho? Because after they. After they. There's a point to this. Yeah, just give me a second. After Israelites conquered Jericho, he said, all of the spoils of the city because Jericho was a mighty city. Yeah, burn it. Yeah, burn those things. Everything. Everything that you conquered from that city, burn it. Because I've asked you to. And so, well, Achan was seeing this. Some. Some gold, some Silver. A robe which basically totaled up to be a little over 500 bucks.
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A
Right.
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And was like, I'm gonna take this for myself because they're burning all this stuff and no one's using it.
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A
Yeah.
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Well, that cost. It could have cost all of Israel, you know, but the next battle, out of God's mercy, only 39 guys passed away. But he was infuriated. And he said, there are things in your camp.
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Yeah.
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That were devoted to destruction.
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A
Yeah.
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That someone decided to keep.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And that someone was Achan. Achan came out, and then Achan was put to death over those things.
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A
Yeah, yeah.
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B
You know, and sometimes in ministry, you know, it's like, why aren't things happening the way we want them to do? First, do an introspective of being like, is there anything devoted to destruction in the camp? Yeah, there are some attitudes, some spirits of people that are genuinely devoted to destruction. I didn't say people.
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A
Sure.
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B
I said attitudes and spirits.
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A
Yeah, for sure.
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B
Which means spirits can be cast out. Attitudes can be changed.
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A
Yeah, for sure.
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B
So there's some drama that happens with people, and you're like, get rid of this person. Or this person has. There's always drama around this person.
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A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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B
That individual has allowed a spirit that is devoted to destruction. You know, people have called it. You know, I remember my mom in the 90s would say, a lying or deceiving spirit.
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A
Yeah.
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B
A Jezebel spirit.
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A
Yeah.
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B
You know, I know that sounds goofy and funny.
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A
Sure, sure.
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B
But those things. And you have to get rid of it. You have to get rid of that spirit in order for the ministry to go on. And you know, what's unique is that Israel went back to AI. The people that they just lost to, they beat them. Because God was like, hey, today, now that you've taken care of that, now that you've destroyed the things that were devoted to destruction, go take AI now and everything. All the spoils and now are yours. Which means Achan could have cashed in on those spoils.
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A
Absolutely.
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B
Like God was going to take care of him. And many times people get territorial. This is just an example, and this is something that really did happen. There was a after church at one of our campuses. There was an after church luncheon a few years ago. That's a way I can reuse it, because it was a few years ago and things are better now. There's an after church luncheon. And the person who was doing the food and the person who was setting up the luncheon were. They weren't liking each Other. And there was this underlying drama with these two individuals of like, you're not doing this right. You're not doing this right. Well, because of that, when the service ended, the food wasn't ready, and people who were guests that came for this event left because they were like, well, the food's not. And nothing was. Things fell apart because of two people who had drama.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Well, then it was like, let's squash this drama because you guys just cost. You cost the church something.
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A
Yeah. No, right.
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B
Because you couldn't. You had things that were devoted to destruction.
- [20:48]
A
Yeah.
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B
And they were like, well, you know, I just, you know, they're stepping on my toes and da, da, da. And I have a way of doing things in order to get people fed. And this person wasn't working well with me. And it was like, do you realize, step back. What's the point of this?
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A
Yeah. Right.
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B
It's to reach people. Right. It's to feed people.
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A
Yeah.
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B
It's not your ego.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Do you not trust God that God is going to. And it came down to, you know, as we went through some counseling, it was like. And we got. And basically it came down to these two individuals admitting, you know, I find my identity and me serving at the church and me doing this.
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A
Right, right, right. Yeah.
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B
You know.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And I was like, well, guess what, you're not alone. I've been the same way. I found my identity in the productions that we have done. I found my identity and how a sermon goes. I found my identity. And in certain things, and I get defensive and butthurt over those things and being like. And being angry.
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A
Yeah.
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B
You know, whenever you have to step back and be like, what's the main thing here?
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A
Totally.
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B
And so anyways, all that to say once that was dealt with, both of those individuals are still involved today after three years ago of dealing with it. And they're able to work together.
- [22:06]
A
Yeah, absolutely.
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B
You know, and it's like, okay. And I know it doesn't always end like that. It doesn't always end like that. Sometimes people decide to be like, well, I'm just not going to be involved in.
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A
Right, right, right.
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B
But the goal is harmony.
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A
That's right.
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B
You know. Absolutely, absolutely. And so anyways.
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A
Yeah, yeah. And I think it's a skill, like, realistically, long term, if you think about currently, like, I think about sports teams, I could name specific ones, but just for the sake of, like, being short about it, like, there have been sports teams in the past that just buy really gifted and talented players, and they don't end up winning. And they become the story of a documentaries like, how did this team not win? How did they not win?
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B
How did this team not win? They were stacked.
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A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you realize as you step away from sports and just look at life like harmony. It says in psalms. I don't remember which one. It's like one hundred and something. I think one hundred forty six maybe, who cares? It says the harmony is as precious, is as important as the anointing of God, the anointing oil that poured down Aaron's head and down his beard. Because it's like if you have an exorbitant amount of talent and you're so intelligent and you're brilliant and you're. And you know how to do everything so perfectly, but there's no way for you to work with anybody else, then that talent is actually a disadvantage. Because the humble person who walks in and goes, yeah, maybe I have some good ideas, but the important thing here is that we are cohesive together.
- [23:33]
B
You're right.
- [23:34]
A
Then God goes, if I bless that, everybody wins and gets better. If you bless the person who's purely like, I just need to have my vision happen, it's most important that I get my way and that I get the credit. Well, that person can't go very far. And even if they try, especially if you get into a ministry context because the margin for error in a ministry context is much smaller than if you just want to be on YouTube or on Instagram, like being an influencer. The margin for error there is so huge, you can mess up and do whatever you want. And so I see a lot of people who get excited by the opportunity to be in ministry and then they're not, they're moving so quickly in their mind that they're not paying attention to some of these incentives here are for me to be seen. It's really important for, you know, and.
- [24:24]
B
Maybe if incentives to be seen and.
- [24:26]
A
If these people are looking at me, that involves this group of people over here, maybe it's, you know, it's happened a lot where it's like, I wasn't seen as much as a child by a parent, or maybe it's a young man saying, young women didn't pay attention to me or vice versa. And all of a sudden your God given talents and skills and whatever become the content you'll push to be seen and known and for people to want to be around you and you're popular and there's plenty of that. And unfortunately we've made an industry out of that. And it's got its own thing. And what's disappointing about it, even apart from the individuals involved, is that I think the enemy, when he sees people popping off in a Christian context, it's not bad that they're doing that. It's more so that the risk they're running is when they come to blows and they refuse to humble themselves to create and steward harmony, the anointing goes away. And so you're trying to carry this massive weight that God gave you with your own capacity as a person apart from God.
- [25:36]
B
And then you start grinding gears. It's like a. It's like a car without oil. You're like, yeah, you can run for.
- [25:41]
A
A little bit, but you will explode.
- [25:43]
B
You will explode. You will catch on fire without the oil. Like literally the anointing oil.
- [25:47]
A
And what's a bummer is that when that happens, many people will go, I guess this God stuff is really just like a facade. You just kind of create it, you know? And unfortunately, that's a really difficult pill to swallow, is they have a point when you see that the people who have been the difficult pill to swallow.
- [26:08]
B
For people who have. Who have stayed and fought for the faith, the difficult pill for them to swallow is when someone who has become an atheist or maybe agnostic or something, is when someone says what the difficult.
- [26:21]
A
Pill to swallow is. The people who don't any longer believe God is real or that God, if he is real, that he is for us and for humanity, they have now concrete evidence of why they might be right. When the church is not serving the purpose it's supposed to.
- [26:40]
B
Whenever they're grinding, whenever it's based on someone's personal capacity, personal talent, as opposed to the anointing and moving spirit and the spirit of harmony.
- [26:49]
A
It's a lot clearer. It's clear when you look at the. When you look at the definition of the word grace.
- [26:53]
B
Yeah.
- [26:54]
A
It means to be empowered by God's power. Like you are operating on the fuel that God gives you.
- [27:00]
B
Yeah. The grace of God is not just for forgiveness of sins. The grace of God is an empowerment.
- [27:06]
A
Yeah. So the definition of disgrace is to be doing something you need grace to do, and you don't have God's grace to do it because not because God didn't want to give it to you, but because you separated yourself from the source of it.
- [27:23]
B
So say that again slower.
- [27:25]
A
So a person operates disgracefully is when they're trying to do what you need grace to do, and they've denied the grace that they need.
- [27:34]
B
So when they're trying to do what they've been graced to do, but they're.
- [27:39]
A
Denying what you need grace to do. So it's like saying, how does a person. How does. And take it apart from outside of ministry, for example, like, how can a person be a good parent? You need grace to do that.
- [27:52]
B
Right.
- [27:53]
A
So to try and parent and cut yourself off from the grace of God, the power of God that would enable you to do that, you're acting. This word is harsh. Disgracefully.
- [28:03]
B
Yeah.
- [28:04]
A
And it's a choice. It's pride. It's arrogance. And if you study the word grace and you see how the scripture says that grace comes through faith, Faith is the pipeline for grace. And so when you put your faith in yourself, then whatever grace you can create for yourself, that's how much power you'll have to live in your life. Yeah.
- [28:21]
B
And you run out immediately.
- [28:23]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Pretty fast.
- [28:26]
B
Yeah.
- [28:26]
A
By 9am you're like, I'm done. Yeah, yeah. And people try to like. And what's unfortunate is if you have erected for yourself this structure that runs on you being a godly Christian person, then even when you need to pause and go to God. And this is where Joshua and the Israelites, they didn't. They made that mistake as well. They don't consult God in certain areas. It literally says they chose not to.
- [28:52]
B
Yeah. They chose not to until after 39 people died.
- [28:55]
A
And then all this stuff happens. And then they make treaties with people they're not supposed to. Oh, yeah. They're in wars that they're not supposed to be in. You're gonna be in. You could find yourself in arguments and battles that you never should have been in because you didn't consult God ahead of time. And so what really it comes down to is we operate at a pace that is impressive to the people watching, that is actually disgraceful to God and says, I'm not going to go slow enough for you and I to keep this thing really in harmonious operation. So. But these people are impressed by. How do you do. Oh, you're so amazing. Oh, wow. Look at this ministry you built. Look at this. The way that you parent. Look at the way that you do this.
- [29:34]
B
That the other.
- [29:34]
A
Yeah.
- [29:34]
B
Your videos are so curated and your content is amazing.
- [29:39]
A
So that tells me that the. Who you consider your audience has everything to do with how it's gonna go. If your audience is genuinely God, then it's interactive, it's collaborative, it's beautiful, whatever. But the problem with that is that does not. And that's another hard pill to swallow that does not get you the attention and fame you might have been incentivized to want from the beginning. So the combo we had before is like, there were some Christian musicians dueling over an awards show appearance. And it was like, well, he has a point. He has a point. Whatever. And then I thought about this after the episode that we recorded. There's another guy that's a musician that. He's a wonderful songwriter. Some of his songs have been the most famous that we've sung in church services all over. And it dawned on me that dude is absolutely absent from all of these conversations. He put out a new album recently that no one heard about, but he's making a good living. His kids are happy, from what I can tell. His wife is happy. They're living their life. And he's not even involved in this strange stuff over here. And yet his music is profound and beautiful and glorifies God. So what if that guy is the example to follow in the next 10, 20, 30, 40 years as a person in ministry? Yeah. His name is John Mark McMillan. Yeah. So I just. My buddy reminded me I have a friend who's a pastor who. He's more aware of where worship music is at than I am. And he sent me again this new album, and I was like, this is gorgeous. I love this. Like, this is wonderful stuff. You know, you could tell there's, like, meaning. And I'm not saying that the people who go to the Devil wars don't have anointing on their life. I'm saying they have a lot more ingredients to watch out for. Yes. And so if you're a person of faith now and you're trying to figure out what God has for you, I can speak to the younger Arvind and say, can you imagine a scenario where you're not a famous Christian entity and you still love the Lord? Because I can't imagine one where you are a famous Christian entity and that's your priority and you continue to love the Lord. So it's that the mature faith demands that you get past all that.
- [31:49]
B
Mature faith demands that you get past all that.
- [31:52]
A
Yeah.
- [31:53]
B
Yes.
- [31:53]
A
And you can choose. You can save time and choose up front to, like, I'm not even going to get off the highway and get into. There's that Las Vegas, spiritual Las Vegas of being seen by people and being in the green rooms with pastors and all that. Or you can go in there, get your life wrecked, and then 30 years later be like, oh, I guess I should get past that. You know what I mean? I want to save time.
- [32:15]
B
I want to save time by staying harmonious. Hopefully you guys were able to track what we were. What we have kind of talked and walked through these last 30 minutes. But to bring it out, to bring it to head. So, like, to encapsulate everything that we're.
- [32:31]
A
Talking about, I would just say something you said at the very beginning that, like, can you continue to maintain your faith when difficult things are happening? When the person you prayed for died, when this happened, when that didn't go well, et cetera, et cetera, when you get fired, when you don't get the dream job you want. My counter to that is not only can you deepen your faith through that, I would argue you cannot deepen your faith without those types of disappointments and disillusionments that God does not author, but he allows because he wants to remove the fear of those things happening.
- [33:04]
B
God does not author those things, but he does allow them. Keep going. I just want to make sure.
- [33:10]
A
No, no. Yeah. He allows them because if. Imagine if God was a superpower where if the people who believe in God, nothing bad ever happens to them, then if you're a person of God, you will live in perpetual fear of something going wrong and something bad happening to you. It's an entirely greater, more profound, broader superpower to say even when the bad things happen.
- [33:32]
B
Yeah.
- [33:33]
A
The enemy has nothing to threaten you with anymore. You know what I mean? So I think that's my summary is deepening faith. Maturing faith.
- [33:40]
B
Deepening faith requires the deeper.
- [33:44]
A
Whatever losses. You know, you got to get rid of Achans and all that.
- [33:47]
B
Yeah, yeah. You have to get rid of.
- [33:48]
A
And God's so merciful and gracious. Like the fact that God made Israel aware of Achan. That's a huge deal. There are people whose entire life, 10, 15, 20, 30 years can go by or longer. I can think of examples of people where decades have gone by and they still can't find Achan. They don't know what the issue is.
- [34:10]
B
Well, and the thing that. And I'm glad that you brought that up, because as far as. If you need it, you go, okay, well, how do I get to this point? It is an outline. If you were to just look at, like, almost like the Cliff Notes of. Is it Joshua 7 or Joshua 8 with Achan 7? Yeah, 7. Eight is when they go back. And so Joshua 7, basically, Joshua cried out to the Lord after they got embarrassed and got their butt kicked. And then. And then the Lord says, stand Up. Yeah, Stop. You know. You know, belly aching.
- [34:45]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [34:46]
B
Pun intended.
- [34:47]
A
Yeah.
- [34:47]
B
And then he just says, go. And he gives him a plan. Go. Family by family, tribe by tribe. Ask them. And he says, and consecrate yourselves.
- [34:58]
A
Right.
- [34:59]
B
The consecrating. What does it mean, Arvind? To consecrate yourself.
- [35:03]
A
So it's a. It's an older word, but it basically means you. You turn everything over to God. And then in the Old Testament context, it's specifically included with potential for destruction. Meaning, like, he could very well burn it up. It was like a sacrifice you put on the altar.
- [35:18]
B
So he said, consecrate yourselves.
- [35:20]
A
Yeah.
- [35:21]
B
And then tomorrow you will find out.
- [35:24]
A
Yeah.
- [35:25]
B
You know who this is coming from. The person who was holding onto the things devoted to destruction. So our. What we would say to you guys is, you know, cry out to God and then consecrate yourself and be like God. Whatever you want to destroy and burn up, I'm down for it.
- [35:45]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [35:45]
B
And then it's unique how certain things will rise to the surface and you can identify. That's it.
- [35:51]
A
Yeah.
- [35:52]
B
That's what I got to do away with. Absolutely. That's why I gotta burn away.
- [35:55]
A
And that's a sensitive place, because when you ask God and make you aware and he does. If you ignore that, the next time you ask him, he'll be a little quieter. So it's like, if you're going to ask, it better be with the intention that, like, when they made. When God made them aware, this is the problem, they took care of it. That's a beautiful thing. When you go to God and you repent and he makes you aware, that's wonderful. But there are people who are like, I can't hear God. I don't know what I'm supposed to do. It's that, okay, every time it came up, I don't even have time for me to get into more stories. But every time you ignore the voice of God, he goes, all right, you're turning the volume down on me.
- [36:33]
B
You're turning the volume down on God.
- [36:35]
A
Yeah.
- [36:38]
B
So hopefully you feel encouraged by that.
- [36:40]
A
Don't do that.
- [36:41]
B
So do not do that.
- [36:42]
A
If you're hearing God, What I'm saying is, most people, myself included, sometimes when I become aware of something I'm doing wrong, I get really upset at myself. And the reality is the fact that you've been made aware of what's wrong, that is God speaking to you, which if he's speaking to you, he's speaking life to you. Because he is life.
- [36:59]
B
So it's not, it's not something you should feel shame or condemnation for relief. It's relief of saying, oh, thank God.
- [37:06]
A
Thank you for telling me.
- [37:08]
B
Thank you for bringing this to my awareness. Okay, I'm consecrating it.
- [37:11]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. My basketball coach in high school used to say if I'm no longer correcting you, it's either that you are perfect or I've given up on you. So as long as I'm, as long as I'm telling you what's a correct word, as long as I'm telling you I have faith that you can be better at what you doing. So God believes in you and the way he makes you aware of that is correction when you ask.
- [37:30]
B
Yes. So that's good. Hey, thank you guys so much for listening today and we hope you enjoyed it and we will see you next time. Bye, guys. See ya.