BEST DAYS | Season 10 Episode 7

Summary

Podcast Summary: BEST DAYS | Season 10 Episode 7

Podcast: Victory Church: Paul Daugherty
Date: November 19, 2025
Hosts: John and Arvin

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Main Theme

This episode of "Behind the Scenes of Our Best Days" delves into the values and heartbeat of Victory Church as the team navigates a packed end-of-year season. John and Arvin discuss stewardship—not just of resources or events, but of moments and spontaneity—as well as spiritual obedience, the importance of knowing when to begin and end initiatives, and the impact of upbringing on faith in adulthood. With humor and candor, they reflect on obedience, flexibility, upbringing in conservative Christian households, and the journey of authentic faith.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Health, Habits, and Family Longevity

• Opening banter about water, electrolytes, and health advice leads into reflections on family members who defied dietary expectations and lived long, happy lives ([00:26]–[03:51]):
  • John: “My grandma, Gigi, died at 103... She loved Dr. Pepper and she ate eggs and bacon and milk. Everything they tell you [not to eat], she would have.” ([02:49])
  • Observation: Longevity sometimes defies conventional wisdom.

2. Victory’s Culture of Spontaneity and Stewardship

• Busy season preview: Upcoming events include Friendsgiving, "Les Magnificat" Christmas production, toy giveaways, candlelight services, and outreach ([04:20]–[05:25]).
• Spontaneity and stewardship at Victory: Emphasizing flexibility paired with readiness to act on God’s leading ([05:48]–[06:16]).
  • John: “Pastor Paul...is a shoot, ready, aim [type].”
  • Key insight: “Stewardship is not management, it’s multiplication,” referencing Jesus’ parable of the talents ([06:16]–[07:37]).
  • Notable quote: “Obeying God equals success. Just obey God.” ([08:06], John)
• Examples:
  • Church on the roof during COVID due to restrictions ([08:06]–[08:20])
  • Mobilizing to distribute groceries and coats, often within hours via spontaneous leadership texts ([09:00]–[11:11])
  • Memorable moment: Anonymous donor spontaneously gave thousands for coats after hearing about the need mid-service.
  • Donor: “Dude, that’s why I freaking love Victory.” ([11:11])

3. Obedience: Starting and Stopping

• Victory’s outreach: The story of “The 99” event—a tent-based outreach for students combining creative evangelism and real-life issues ([15:15]–[17:55]).
  • Initiative was started and eventually stopped in obedience to God’s prompting.
  • Key insight: “Obedience to quit something...is a miracle in and of itself and is also obedience to God.” ([19:11], John)
• Reference: Dr. Henry Cloud’s book “Necessary Endings,” noting the importance of letting go of projects, relationships, or seasons when their grace/life has passed ([19:26]–[20:07]).

4. The Danger of Attaching Identity to Seasons, Routines, or Achievements

• Candid anecdotes about becoming attached to routines (favorite drinks, music, etc.) and the heartbreak or resistance to adapting ([24:25]–[27:16]).
• Deeper reflection:
  • “Anytime you headquarter your soul outside of knowing God and what He thinks of you...it gets real tricky.” ([21:19], Arvin)
  • The longing for stability really signals a longing for God, the unchanging one.
    • “What you’re craving is God, because God is the one that doesn’t change.” ([23:07], John/Arvin)

5. Conservative Upbringing and Its Effect on Adult Faith

• Nostalgia and critique: Stories of growing up with strict Christian boundaries (no ‘secular’ content, rigid rules) ([27:16]–[28:39]).
  • “It just made me want to be sneaky...I would go over to Grand Gran’s and watch BET.” ([28:08], John)
• Observations on effects:
  • Many peers from strict backgrounds strained to meet all expectations, only to replicate this adaptation skill in secular contexts—matching whatever culture they encountered ([31:58]–[33:44]).
  • Memorable insight: “The mirror that he had been taught to be was always the same.” ([34:54], John quoting Arvin)
  • As a result, some leave faith or swing to extremes in adulthood. The issue isn’t with faith, but with “pleasing the environment you’re in by emulating it.” ([35:58])

6. A Call for Evolving Christian Parenting and Spiritual Growth

• Rethinking the bubble: Advocating for parenting that allows children space to make mistakes earlier and learn responsible faith—rather than bubble-wrapping through adolescence and unleashing into the world untested ([37:17]–[38:28]).
  • “There are certain mistakes you need to make at 12 and 15...if you make them at 35 and 40, they’re far more expensive.” ([37:17], Arvin)
• Gratitude but encouragement to adapt:
  • “I’m grateful to the generation who stewarded the sincerity that God gave them...but parenting...should evolve from that.” ([38:28], Arvin)

7. Permission to Obey, to Quit, and to Question

• Parting wisdom:
  • “We pray that not only are you obedient to obey, you also can be obedient to quit.” ([38:59], John)
  • For those raised in strict Christian households now wrestling with faith:
    • “You have weird questions...and you feel this weird childlike pressure to not investigate...that’s not deconstructing, it’s just you weren’t allowed to ask them earlier.” ([39:16], Arvin)
  • Encouragement to seekers:
    • “It’s wonderful to ask questions...seek and you will find. But sometimes people are afraid to seek...God’s not afraid of questions.” ([40:17], John)
    • “Just don’t stop seeking...I have faith that it always ends and begins with Jesus.” ([40:27], John)

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Notable Quotes

• On Spontaneity & Stewardship:
  • “Obeying God equals success. Just obey God.” – John ([08:06])
  • “The spirit of spontaneity...it’s stewarding the moment.” – John ([11:20])
• On Letting Go & Transition:
  • “Obedience to quit something and...not make it your personality or your shtick...is a miracle in and of itself.” – John ([19:11])
  • “If you have the wherewithal to know who you are apart from what you’re doing, then when it’s time to be done with it, it doesn’t cost you.” – Arvin ([19:30])
• On Upbringing & Faith:
  • “The mirror that he had been taught to be was always the same.” – John ([34:54], referencing Arvin)
  • “What you’re craving is God, because God is the one that doesn’t change.” – John/Arvin ([23:07])
  • “There are certain mistakes you need to make at 12 and 15...if you make them at 35 and 40, they’re far more expensive.” – Arvin ([37:17])
• On Seeking & Questioning:
  • “It’s wonderful to ask questions...seek and you will find.” – John ([40:17])

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Important Timestamps

• Health & Habits Anecdotes: [00:26]–[03:51]
• Upcoming Church Events Preview: [04:20]–[05:25]
• Stewardship & Spontaneity at Victory: [05:48]–[11:11]
• Obedience to Start & End Initiatives (“The 99”): [15:15]–[19:25]
• Attaching Identity to Routines/Seasons: [24:25]–[27:16]
• Thoughts on Conservative Upbringing: [27:16]–[33:44]
• On Environmental Adaptation in Faith: [33:44]–[35:58]
• Rethinking Parenting & Spiritual Growth: [37:17]–[38:28]
• Encouragement for Seekers & Questioners: [38:59]–[40:44]

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Final Takeaways

• Faithful stewardship includes obedience—to start, to stop, to act in the moment.
• Healthy ministry (and parenting) practices balance planning with readiness for spontaneous opportunities.
• True spiritual stability comes from rooting identity in God, not external routines or cultural approval.
• Spiritually healthy environments encourage honest questions, learning through experience, and continued seeking.

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This summary captures the warmth, honesty, and practical wisdom of the episode, making it accessible for those who haven't listened but want to absorb the heart of Victory Church's message and culture.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

Hey, what's up, everybody?

[A]

My name is John.

[B]

My name is Arvin.

[A]

And this is behind the scenes of our best days. Season 10. Season 10. And we have been so much enjoying this season. Yeah.

[B]

Just hold our waters.

[A]

Yeah, we hold our waters.

[B]

So enjoying it.

[A]

Mine has a yellow tint to it because I try to put electrolytes in my water.

[B]

It's very good that you do that.

[A]

Someone told me that if you just drink water. This is insane. And I don't know if it's true or not, because the person who said it announced it at a fitness class that I was at. They were like, if you only drink water, you're actually dehydrating yourself. And everyone was like, huh?

[B]

And they sold you electrolytes.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, that's true. That's probably. You know what?

[B]

They held off a product that has his face on it. It was Rex Kwondo from.

[A]

Rex Kwondo from Napoleon Dynamite. That's a funny reference. Okay. But basically what they're saying is, is that you only drink water. You'll use the bathroom a lot.

[B]

Incredible.

[A]

And it's like. It's good. But he said, if you put electrolytes in your water. Yeah. Then it actually does something. As opposed to you just using the incredible.

[B]

I hope he's right.

[A]

I hope he is. I'm banking.

[B]

Save humanity, then how else are we gonna.

[A]

Like, what's something that you just bank on? And you've never questioned. Like, someone has said it. And when someone asks you, you're kind of like, well, I don't know. I've always been.

[B]

I always heard that was the case.

[A]

Yeah, man. I don't know.

[B]

Like, the electrolyte thing is a good one. People would always say, like, don't eat too much salt. Whatever. Yes. I went to the doctor, and they were like, you need to eat more salt. I was like, why? They're like, your cholesterol is too low. I was like, what's going on?

[A]

Is your. If your cholesterol is low, you have to eat more salt.

[B]

They were like, add salt to your diet. Put salt in your water if you want. I was like, really? Yeah. You're hdl. They go, this is me bragging about my health. It's funny. Yeah. But they were like, yeah, I've never seen cholesterol like this. And I was like, it's because I drink a lot of water.

[A]

Yeah. I think, oh, well, I mean, that's good.

[B]

I started drinking water because I was in Amsterdam one time for a conference, and I fainted on stage.

[A]

While you were.

[B]

While I was talking.

[A]

While you were talking.

[B]

Yeah. I woke up on stage, so embarrassed.

[A]

And people were like, wow, what a great illustrated sermon.

[B]

Yeah, they did. Unfortunately, because of the nature of the conference, they thought that it was like, oh, he's getting a vision. And I was like, getting a vision.

[A]

You're like, I'm convulsing.

[B]

No, I'm getting a kidney stone. I'm not hydrated. Yeah. Sometimes they're.

[A]

That is funny.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. But I. You know, I think that when it comes to hydrating and, hell, it's just important, you know, Something that I. That people would tell me is they're like, bacon is bad for you. My grandma. So I've had two grandmas. One, her name was Gigi, and she lived alone. She died 103. Wow. And she loved Dr. Pepper. And she ate eggs and bacon and milk. Everything they tell you, like, you know, eggs, bacon and milk. That's what she would have. She loved biscuits. She loved Dr. Pepper.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and then. But she was. She was 4, 7.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

Interesting. Almost a legal. Small person or whatever you.

[B]

Is it dwarf or whatever you want to risk saying out loud?

[A]

So anyways. Anyways. Yeah, but I was like, okay. Everyone said to not eat bacon. But it worked for her grand gran, which is my dad's mother, who passed away at 101.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Wow. Like, she also. She loved these microwavable donuts you would buy at, like, cvs. And I'm like, there's gotta be so much garbage, I'm sure. And microwavable.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Donuts that were frozen.

[B]

Yeah. For sure.

[A]

She'd be loving those 101. And so now that's what I'm doing every day.

[B]

You're gonna eat bacon and donuts.

[A]

Bacon and microwavable donuts. I'm like, I.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

If I don't live long, at least I'll live happy.

[B]

Yeah, that's right. That's right.

[A]

So anyways. But yes, so this is. This podcast talks about the behind the scenes of victory and everything that's going on. And currently, you know, we're ramping up for 2025, the Thanksgiving harvest. We do a Friendsgiving.

[B]

Yes, that's right.

[A]

Where we do it at our campuses where we welcome people in. We're getting ready for that event. We also have another event that is coming up in December.

[B]

That's right. And there's several with the first one is the Christmas production, Les Magnificat.

[A]

Les Magnificat.

[B]

Very exciting.

[A]

And it's funny because people have asked, what is a Magnificat?

[B]

Read the Bible.

[A]

Read the Bible. If you just Google what is Magnificat in the Bible? Boom.

[B]

It'll pop up.

[A]

It'll pop up and it'll pop off.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. And it's going to pop off. December 11th through the 14th. Yes.

[A]

Thursday, Friday, Saturday and then two on Sunday. We also have a toy giveaway in there. And also at our other locations, we have the toy giveaway, also the Christmas Eve candlelight service. We also do our nursing home outreach. Yeah. Like Christmas for everyone is very exciting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But for us with like all staff, Christmas.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

With all the other things going on. Yeah, it is kind of. Not kind of. It is busy.

[B]

It's packed tight.

[A]

Yeah, packed tight.

[B]

Yeah. Wonderful stuff.

[A]

But it's a lot. And then in January, we have our conference.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

So it's like you're having to co. Plan and those things. We are not complaining. We are. Yeah.

[B]

Praise God.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Awesome.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. But anyways, I was. And that's the thing, you know, at least here at Victory and maybe at other churches and stuff, it's like they created a culture of spontaneity and flexibility where there are some ministries that are, like, planned out like a full month. And for the most part, we are. But Pastor Paul and Pastor Ashley, specifically Pastor Paul, he. He is a shoot ready, aim.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and it kind of ties into. So this past weekend, Pastor Paul. This is a long rabbit trail, but there's a point to it. This past weekend, you know, a few weekends ago, Pastor Paul preached on stewardship and how stewardship is, you know, not management, it's multiplication. And, you know, he talks about, you know, the story of the talents and what are you doing with what God has given you. In fact, at the end of our life. And John Bevere also has a great word on this. At the end of your life, they're not going to pop in a vhs, which totally dates me. Heaven is not going to pop in a VHS and be like, these are all the sins you committed, so you ain't getting into heaven.

[B]

Right, right, right.

[A]

You're going to hell. Yeah, they're not going to do that. They're going to say, okay, well done, thy good and faithful servant. Like, what have you done? Because it even says, Jesus says the kingdom of heaven is like. And he tells the story of the talents. And he says, what? Like, what have you done with what I've given you? Did you bury the talents or did you multiply them? Yeah, you know, and that Goes with you. Whether you're a mom, a dad, a entrepreneur, or you work in business, you work in ministry, you work in the creative arts, you work in education. You know, whether it's blue collar or white collar job. It is. What are you doing with what God has given you?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so the stewardship of that. Well, you know, we have this, you know, we have this facility and you know, for instance, I'm just going to hit on several examples. One of the things was, you know, Covid, it was like you can't meet inside the spontaneity, the obedience. Because stewardship is also like, you know, like it is obeying God equals success. Yeah, just obey God.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

You know, well, Paul, Pastor Paul, Pastor Ashley's there praying. They're like, oh, we're going to do church on the roof. Yeah, so church on the roof. Yeah, that happened, you know, and it was like, well, we have this building. We're not just going to not use it.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

During COVID Right, let's line up the, you know, and it was like, okay, everyone, since you're not coming into work, you're going to put on masks. We're going to do the 6ft separation. And everyone all hands on deck. Whether you're a teacher or janitor.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We're all going to give out groceries.

[B]

Yeah, that's right. Every day at the Dream Center.

[A]

Every day, Every day over here in the parking lot. And that was spontaneity. You know, another thing was like when the snack benefits went out, spontaneity was, okay, let's, let's do. We, we always give out groceries. It's just something that victory does. It was like, let's be intentional about getting the word out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Let's team up with people in our government to be like, hey, we can be a location where whether you're a member or a non member, you can come here and we want to help you.

[B]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[A]

And so, you know, it's like text messages on Fridays and figuring things out in order that way on the weekends we have places to drop off. And also spontaneity. And if people feel like giving towards this, people who are blessed in their resources. Yeah. And we are like, okay, if you feel like giving, you also have a chance. Like we are set up in a way to where you can give and you all of your money directly goes towards. Absolutely. Helping people.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And that was a whole like.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, it set up thing. But all that was happening within like 24 hours.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

And it Happened through, like, a text message from Pastor Paul and Pastor Ashley, like, yeah, we're gonna do this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then this last weekend, it was like, okay, if it was very cold in Tulsa, Oklahoma.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If you have a coat that you want to give away that you're wearing right now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Boom. Yeah. And it happened during the 9am yeah. And it was like, okay. And then from stage Paul's like, can we get, like, a thing to put all the coats in as people walk out? That way we can give people coats because it's getting cold, the temperature.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then, you know, during that, the guy o Pedro, who's over Victory reach, he just initially thought he just jumped to it, and he was like, between the 9:00am and 11:00am service, I'm running over to Walmart to buy more coats.

[B]

Beautiful. Yeah.

[A]

So there was multiple text messages like, hey, let's make an allotment in our resource, like, Victory Reach budget to go buy Cokes.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

While he's buying coats, this is all happening during the 9:00am Pastor Daniel Henshaw, our administrative pastor, gets a text message from someone who owns businesses. God has really blessed them. And he goes, hey, I want to give X amount of dollars. I want to give thousands of dollars.

[B]

Towards getting new coats.

[A]

And he was just like, can we do it before the 11:00am and Pastor Daniel was able to text him and be like, actually, we're already doing it. And the guy said, dude, that's why I freaking love Victory.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

And he was like, I'm gonna.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Like, I'm gonna send you the money right now.

[B]

That's right. That's right. Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

But that spirit of spontaneity.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, it was. It's like stewarding. Like, okay, it's not just stewarding this building and your resource. It's stewarding the moment.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

It's striking while the iron is hot.

[B]

Definitely. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I agree. I just think that a lot of people, it's more of a disease nowadays where it's like their heart is actually to create, like, a dynasty of, like, look at me and what I've accomplished. And then when the opportunity comes, they showcase. Like, that's really what I care about. And then when things like this happen, they may take the easy out of blaming certain government stuff or whatever. And thankfully, in Victory's history, it's just been like, yeah, we're not too cool to just show up and, you know, and then I think there are enough people I appreciate and admire. I'm a I love planning in advance, especially with production stuff. Yeah, whatever. But no one ever gets on to hospitals for being spontaneous and ready. Like, you know what I mean? Like, if you might have a buddy who works in the emergency room at one of the hospitals in town, he doesn't sit there and, like, why won't these people tell me when they're going to get injured?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, that's just real life.

[A]

Yeah. People show up and it's like, they need.

[B]

They don't know. All of a sudden, the car accident happens. People know.

[A]

Yeah, it's like, people know that. Like, in a case of emergency, what hospital do you want us to take us to take you to? And then you copy and paste that with churches.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

If you go, in case of emergency, what church do you want us to take you to?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And then people get to think, and they go, I want to go to a church that knows how to be a hospital.

[B]

Yeah. How can you. How quickly can you mobilize to get. I think there are people who want their church to be a reflection of whether they're the one running it or whether they are attending. They like the. There's. There's a lot to be said about stability and peace, and that's good. And most hospital, like, the emergency room is not the whole hospital. There are sections of the hospital that are accounting. There are sections of the hospital that work a regular 9 to 5 schedule, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, you know, labor and delivery, et cetera, whatever. But then there has to be a section. There has to be. If you go to a hospital and you go, this person's bleeding out. They need help. And you go, oh, take them to. You know, it's like, aren't you. And I think people have that experience.

[A]

Like, you're saying, like, hospitals don't outsource help.

[B]

They can't. That would be ridiculous. You would be so. You know what I mean? Like, if you showed up to a hospital and go, oh, we don't actually have an emergency room. There are a lot of churches that don't. Aren't. And maybe. I don't know. I don't want to make fun of anybody in particular, but it's like, that's a part of it, you know, like. And thank God that Victory has been doing that at scale. Like, I commend the churches. I grew up in a church of, like, 35 people, and even in that church, there were individuals who were blessed by God to be like, no, we're gonna help this Other church in this other town, we're gonna do this other thing. You know what I mean? So it's not about size and finance.

[A]

No, no. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

It's about obedience.

[A]

It's not about size and finance.

[B]

It's about obedience. Exactly. Yeah. So I've seen it in small examples. And then at Victory, you see it at scale, and you're like, yeah. What it exposes is this individual, this team of individuals, they have the right mindset to approach this well.

[A]

And here's the thing is, like, yes, hospitals will always have an emergency room, you know, here at. And maybe you guys have experienced this your past. Like, and I'm talking to people who are. Maybe work for a ministry or something. Maybe your pastor has had moments of spontaneity, and you. And you have to be quick to obey, because obedience equals success in the. In the kingdom of heaven. But then, you know, this is an example. Victory had this traveling thing called the 99.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the 99 was a tent that would set up in parking lots, whether it was at a mall or whether it was, like, in a shopping center. And they got permission, of course. They set up this tent, and they would go to all of the area schools within that zip code. They would do this thing called arrive alive. And the whole thing was, like, school assemblies, where they would meet in the gym or in their theater, and they would talk about not texting and driving.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then. And it was, like a multimedia presentation with, like, you know, dramas and skits. And it sounds funny and corny, but it was actually good.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the videos were good. And then at the end, they said, we want to show you a video and invite you to this thing called the 99. And they were able to show this video, and it was a trailer telling people to come to this walkthrough experience called the 99. So that was how they recruited all of these schools. So the schools would experience it in school. They would experience this, like, school assembly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then they would get invited with a free ticket to this thing called the 99. The 99 was a walkthrough where it was kind of like a hell house type of a thing, or like, here in Tulsa, Oklahoma, you know, this church called guts, they do this thing called the nightmare. And it was a walk through a reality walkthrough where each room represented a life not surrendered to God.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, a druggie room, you know, with drugs and alcohol, A room where there was abuse. And it was kind of scary. You go in a hellevator and the elevator drops and they take you to hell, you know? And then at the very end, you see a Jesus who's crucified. And it ends with this video about. And it was this powerful video. And it was this cool walkthrough to where at the end, when you walk out of the last room, there's all these tables set up and people say, explain to me what you experienced tonight. Would you like prayer? Would you like to receive Jesus into your heart? Yeah. And it was a whole setup to get people to a decision of if you died today, do you know where you were going? Yeah. And the 99 was not necessarily fear based, but it was like more of like a reality walkthrough. And the 99 stood for 99 students die every day. And it was students, like between In High School, 99 students die every day of. And it was all of these reasons.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And each room was one of the reasons. Yeah. And the whole goal was we want to lower the percentage from 99 to lower. Yeah. Like, that was the goal of it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So anyways, it was a really great thing. Well, Victory launched it. And it was. And it was. And it was one of those things to where the guy over it, Daniel Hinshaw, who is our administrative pastor, his father was obedient to God, launched it, went all over west coast, east coast, Texas. We took missions trips there. And Victory would go and help out, and it was really amazing. He was obedient to start it. And this is the other part. He was obedient to stop.

[B]

That's right. And.

[A]

Something that I think is great for believers or organizations is, oh, man. We started doing this new cool thing like Disney. When Disney purchased Marvel, they were hitting on all cylinders, cranking out these Marvel movies. And they're like, hey, we gotta strike while the iron is hot. Yeah. You know, so you can copy and paste this approach to anywhere.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

But then after, like, Avengers Endgame.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They released more Marvel movies that were kind of like ramp. And it was like, okay, yeah. Now the grace is lifted.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Has anyone ever heard that in, like. It's a churchy term. The grace is lifted.

[B]

Which means this got hard.

[A]

The sauce. The sauce ain't there anymore. It got hard.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think obedience to quit something and it not. And you not make it your personality or you not make it your shtick. Yeah. Is a miracle in and of itself and is also obedience to God.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I agree. There's a Henry Cloud wrote a book called necessary ending.

[A]

Dr. Henry Cloud.

[B]

Dr. Henry Cloud. And it's wonderful because if you, if you have the wherewithal to know who you are apart from what you're doing, then when it's time to be done with it, it doesn't cost you. Like, it's not this crazy.

[A]

When it's time to be done. When it's time to be done with.

[B]

Whatever it could be. I mean, I've had friendships where like, I realized like this person and I, we don't really need to be friends anymore or.

[A]

And it's not that you hate them, it's just that you're like, man, that friendship served its purpose. Purpose.

[B]

Totally. Exactly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Purpose.

[A]

That, this, that friendship purpose. That season is over.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. It could be in relationships, it could be employment, it could be, you know, I don't know, just like how you go about doing certain things. I think for it to serve its purpose means it's happening during a certain time period. And I think it's really unfair because if you imagine, if you have this pressure, and it's not hard to imagine because most people live with it every day where it's like every decision you make, you feel the pressure. Like, this has to work permanently, forever. And it's like, it can get really messy.

[A]

I've made that. For those of you listening, have you ever made that mistake where you, you're in a sweet spot of something and you say this to yourself, maybe out loud, not. Maybe not out loud, but you go, this has to stay like this forever.

[B]

This is actually a symptom of the thought that I am as valuable as the work that I'm doing. So you're like doing the work of building the headquarters for your soul in a job or building the headquarter for your soul, centering yourself, being at a.

[A]

Two year Bible college.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. After two years, maybe I can work here.

[B]

Sure. Yeah.

[A]

Or maybe I can begin intern here. Because I've gotten so attached to the failure to launch the word for that is idolatry.

[B]

It's like soul is supposed to be headquartered in your relationship with God. And so when you headquarter your soul in career, relationships with others, self importance, achievement, accomplishment, whatever it may be. And then it gets real tricky when you bring ministry into it and you go, my headquarters of my soul, my opera I have, my sense of self is in what I can achieve and accomplish in a ministry sense. Look how many people I've helped, look how awesome I am. And I think I admire and appreciate every single person who's made that mistake in the last 45 years. Because watching them crash and burn has enabled me to prevent myself from becoming that as well. So the folks who have opinions about pastors who have fallen, who have sinned sexually or whatever and, like, been taken out of ministry, it's like, we are we. It's not that I wanted them to do that sin, but I owe them a debt of gratitude because watching them do the thing I would just as easily do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Means I get to hopefully prevent it. So I'm grateful to them. You know what I mean?

[A]

It's like a. Yeah.

[B]

But. Yeah. It's a symptom of saying anytime you headquarter your soul outside of knowing God and what he thinks of you, that's why it's so painful. People want to avoid having to do it over and over again. So they go, I'm just going to find a place. And I don't want it to change. And I don't want. It's like, yeah, that's the part of you that wants God, because God doesn't change. And he's not going to constantly, like, catch.

[A]

That's. Hold on, hold on. I don't want to skip over what you just said. What you want of something, not wanting to change. Like, you're in a sweet spot, or maybe you've just come out of one and you've. And you've experienced the. The dip. The emotional dip to where you're like, man, that season of life was just awesome. What you are craving is. Is God.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because God is the. What you just said.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, he's the one that doesn't change. He's the. There's something in you that's annoyed by spontaneity of others or the change that can, like, switching things up. You're annoyed because the part of you that wants to be connected to something infinite and unchanging is not connected to it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So as much as you're secure in who God is and what he's done, which tells. Enables you to understand who you are and what you're supposed to do, then you can surf. You're fun to like, okay, we're doing this now.

[A]

Whenever I was younger. This is a weird analogy, but whenever I was younger, I loved DC Talk because I was like, they rap. They're cool.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I wore out this cd. I'm dating myself. Anyone who is listening to this podcast. And you're not 41, whatever. So there is a CD called Free at Last. And I wore it out. And then before that, I found Round, Round, Round. I'M Heaven Bound. And it was like, that's one of the. That is one of the D.C. talk. D.C. talk is Toby Mack, Kevin Smith, Pacifist. And Michael Tate. Michael Tate, yes. We're not going there. But anyways. But you know what I mean? And I was so like, yes. This is awesome.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Well, then they came out with this CD called Jesus Freak, and it was like, rock and roll.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

And I was so upset that I told all of my friends and I was like, hey, guys, no one buy the Jesus Freak CD until they go back to rap.

[B]

Incredible.

[A]

I had a meeting with my seventh grade friends and I was like, rock stinks.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I was like, it's dumb. And then my friends were like, well, they're coming to the Mavis center, which is this massive right there. Yeah. If you. If you've ever been to Tulsa from Victory, there's ORU has this thing called the maybe center, and it holds like eight or nine thousand people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They came and packed it out and someone bought me a ticket and I went. And I was so upset that I loved it. I was so upset, I head banged.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

As a seventh grader and my neck hurt for a week. But I was like, ah. And I was like, well, I'm not giving up rap.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I mean, I guess I will listen to only DC Talk rock.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

But rock is dumb.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

And then that was a gateway drug to South Town Pod.

[B]

Yeah, there you go.

[A]

And then, like, Chevelle and all that. Well, then DC Talk changed up their sound again to this thing called alternative.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

What in the world is alternative?

[B]

Yeah, sure.

[A]

And I'm like, growing up. And they went to this. It was this album called Supernatural. And I was like, bruh, this is boring. Where's the, like, hard rock?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

You know, and it's funny how, like, I just got so attached.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I. Yeah, that's a dumb allegory, but.

[B]

It'S like, it works.

[A]

You know what I mean? Like, we all get. I remember going to a certain. Like, there's a place here in Tulsa called Scooters Coffee. And when it first opened, I. Because I asked for such a unique drink, I was like. And I always had to explain it every time I go, can you guys write this on a post it note? And can you call the. The drink a johnny?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because I. I went like twice a day and I was like, oh, this is my new routine.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure.

[A]

And I would brag to people about my new routine of going to school. Scooters to get a Johnny.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then other people are like, can I go order a Johnny? And I was like, you bet. And people wish.

[B]

Amazing. And then I just.

[A]

For some reason, I stopped.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And then like a year later.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I was like, oh, scooters. I. I'm gonna go see. I was like, can I have a Johnny? And they're like, what is that? And I go, there's a post it note in there.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And they were like, we. We have no idea. And I remember, like, a part of me died that day.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Wait, they don't remember the posted. They got rid.

[A]

And I was like, a part of me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But anyways, it just. That's a dumb way to talk about, like, just getting attached to certain things, but also, like, obedience to quit, you know? And I think that there's a beautiful thing with that, you know, something that we kind of were talking and getting into was. There is. You know, me and Arvin, we grew up in a home that was very conservative. You know, that was the, like, the parenting of that. They all had really great motives, but the strictness of me not watching me, like, if there was a woman with a backless dress on, I wasn't allowed to watch that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If there was a cartoon that, like, said the word crap.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

My. It was like, hey, let's turn this off. This is not us. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like, it just made me want to be sneaky. And like, I would go over to grand grandsons and watch bet.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Grand. Grand would be like, outside watering the garden.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I knew because Gran. Gran had cable. Yeah. My family didn't have cable. And that's how. Where I would just go and watch bet. Is that not nuts?

[B]

Did you have the remote with the last channel?

[A]

Last channel.

[B]

Every kid had that hack where you just.

[A]

Every. No, here's the thing. Not every kid, every shelter, every sheltered kid, every shelter kid. And maybe those of you who grew up in a strict household, you had that.

[B]

You're watching it like this.

[A]

Yes. And you were talking about how, you know, we were talking about, you know, not that, like, there are some friendships and relationships that it. It's like people that I grew up with and we both had experienced that same parental thing for sure. And again, me looking back at 41, I'm grateful that my parents did it. My parents were doing the best they could.

[B]

Exactly. That's right.

[A]

And it was awesome. I'm not bitter at all. You know, Know, I'm. You know, I'm. And I'M trying, and I'm taking a few things as I'm parenting my kids. But, yeah, you know, as I'm older, I look at people who are just now at 41 that I grew up with, and they went nuts. Sure. Because of that constraining.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Environment.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And just now, at 41 years old, you know, they're getting back in touch with me and they're coming back to church and they're like, man, I've had such a wild life. And now it's like the only thing that makes sense is just coming back to God. And do you think I come sit with you at church again? Yeah. Beautiful.

[B]

Yeah. Excellent.

[A]

But why is that environment that incubator?

[B]

I just think that I'm not an expert on parenting. I'm not a parent yet. But what I've observed with the Christian schools I grew up in, the Christian university over there across the street that I went to, what tends to happen is I've had friends who are raised in varying levels of strict homes. And what they learn, just like philosophically, subconsciously, is this is the environment we have created for you. It's a Christian environment with Christian media, Christian movies.

[A]

We listen to worship on the way to school.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

You only listen to musician movies, family movie nights.

[B]

And it's this. The intentions are so pure that I never wish to mock or make fun of or make someone feel bad for building this world that they have. And it's like, everything's Christian, Christian clothing, Christian, you know, and we can't. And I just think one of the fundamental things that has been exposed now as life has happened and these people have grown up is if that were the best way to do it, God would have done that. Yeah.

[A]

And if that was the best way.

[B]

To do it, God would have. Yeah. If it was like. And in some sense, you could say, like, when he created the world, everything was godly. Yes. And Christ like. But what I've observed is a lot of folks grow up subconsciously just realizing, like, if I want to succeed in the environment that I'm in, I need to take what I see the around me and emulate it, replicate it so that I can then be accepted socially, I don't have to get in trouble, etc. Etc. And you kind of become the good kid. The problem with that is when you graduate from the Christian environment, you then go into the secular world and you do the same thing. And I've had friends who, they were like, extremely.

[A]

You do the same thing as in, you become the Environment.

[B]

You look at the environment and go, tell me how to feel successful in this space.

[A]

Because you did it growing up, and now you just copy and paste that same mindset.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But now you're not in a Christian environment. Yeah.

[B]

So what you learned was not actually.

[A]

To develop a faith or falling in love with Jesus and having a relationship with Jesus.

[B]

But you learn. Here's where it's tricky. You learn that terminology. You know how to say it and you know how to talk.

[A]

You know how to say and talk.

[B]

And I'm not even saying their faith is insincere. It's just more so that what you're. The skill you're really developing, the muscle that really determines how you operate is you look at the culture that you're in, and if it's a Christian culture, you go, okay, great, I'm going to memorize these scriptures. I'm going to interpret life through this filter. And then your filter changes, and lo and behold, you're like, oh, all of a sudden this. All these other things are true now. And it's. I remember sitting down with one friend, it was like on the tail end, maybe like a year out of college, and the first time they said, well, I'm realizing now, like, the Bible is actually not inerrant. And I was like, okay, we've just.

[A]

Gone over the Bible is not inerrant.

[B]

They were like, there's just mistakes in it. And I was like, fascinating that for 18 to 20 in this particular individual, like, they were. I was not Christian enough for them in college.

[A]

So in college, they were the. The. On the peaceful.

[B]

Like, I am the righteousness. Yeah. And I. Absolutely not. I'm not listening to anything. It's not Christian music, all this. And you go, oh, my. I remember being like, can you just be a person? And then it was such a quick spin right after where it was like, well, now the environment that I'm in, I don't get applause and pats on the head and cookies for memorizing the Ten Commandments.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now I get applause, pats on the head and cookies. Those are metaphors for, like, social acceptance.

[A]

Social acceptance.

[B]

I get socially accepted when I make fun of the Ten Commandments. So I'll just do that now. And so you get. So those are the folks that I've observed throughout life. And I'm like, So I was having this conversation with some close friends because we have this other friend. Same situation where, like, consistently strong Christian, like, I can't even. I can't break any rules. I can't you know, and it's being like, okay, I understand, dude, but you don't want to be late for Christmas curfew. I get it. Like, you don't want to be late. You're very, very. You're like a Shiite Christian. You're very, very, very intense. And then they. After college, moved on and became the epitome of whatever the culture that they were in wanted them to be. And it's like everything changed all of a sudden. Everything. Their life became whatever. And my friends and I were talking about it, like, what do you think happened here? And my honest opinion was, nothing changed. Like, the expression and the. The thing that he was reflecting changed. But the mirror that he had been taught to be was always the same.

[A]

The mirror that he had been taught to be was always the same.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Growing up. And now he just thought, oh, and this is all. Usually it's subconsciously. Like, you don't. Some. You don't always realize that you're doing it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And then it just happens again.

[B]

You're still just like, okay, I know how to. And I think that's the issue that breaks my heart, is there are individuals who grow up in Christian environments where it's overtly, everything has to be godly. You can't say. Shut up. You can't. I mean, I. Don't be rude, but, like, you can't say crap. You can't. You better not cuss. You're. And it's like, buddy, you're. I honestly consider it procrastination in the sense that, like, I don't know. What I'm saying is it's perhaps difficult for certain people to accept, but look at the consequences. Like, you want to talk statistics. It's like, people who grow up in Christian environments, more often than not, by the time they're 25 and 30 are departing the faith, they're deconstructing whatever they're deconstructing. Yeah.

[A]

The people protesting against churches or trying to swing the other direction, they swing. The. The pendulum goes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And then people will think, well, is that because the Christian faith is not valid and trustworthy? And I don't even think it's about the Christian faith at all. It's merely like, for 18 years, we taught you that you have to build the muscle of please the environment you're in by emulating it. Here are the buttons to push if you want the outcomes that we want to give you. Don't ask those questions. Think about these things, and the intentions are beautiful and sincere. Then they turn 18, they turn 22, and if they don't go to a Christian university, then all of a sudden that happens way earlier. And then you're 25 and you're like, there's no such thing as gender. There's no such thing as this. And I'm like, I'm not surprised. I'm not. Because what you're. If I'm about to have our first baby with my wife, thank you so much. And the things I'm studying are like, you have to let her learn to walk by slowly trying and then falling down. But if I was to say, well, I never want her to fall, so I'm just gonna, like, always carry her.

[A]

Everywhere, then she doesn't build the muscles.

[B]

Exactly. And then she's 18, and I go, here, you go do it by yourself.

[A]

Now from.

[B]

Now that we have done the spiritual and emotional equivalent of that in a lot of these. Like, wow. And so that is the. The thing that we can learn.

[A]

Bubble wrapped.

[B]

Yes. And I appreciate the Bible belt that I was like, that rescued our family when we were in the Middle east in persecution. But then I come over, over here, and I know that God picked us up, saved my dad's life from being murdered in prison. I know God's real. I know God's done these things. And then I have dozens, if not hundreds, if honestly not thousands of people that I'm friends with during school, school, and during university. And then afterward, it's like, it all just goes away. And I'm like, oh, this is what happened. You were taught how to. You weren't allowed to. Like, there are certain mistakes you need to make at 12 and 15. Yeah. That if you make them at 35 and 40, they're far more expensive. And so to land the plane here, I'll. I'll wrap it up by saying I'm grateful to the generation who stewarded the sincerity that God gave them in the 80s, 90s, early 2000s, up until now. I do think parenting as a Christian individual in the future should evolve from that.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And enable people to learn how to walk and run spiritually, emotionally. Earlier on.

[A]

Earlier on. I think that's good. I know that we. Well, what you said, such a huge can of worms. It really is a can of worms. And today was a little bit of a can of worms.

[B]

But.

[A]

But. And we're gonna have to shut it now. And we will see you next week. But I just wanted to say, we pray that not only are you obedient to obey, you also know you can Be obedient to quit.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then thirdly, whether you're parenting or whether you are. Maybe you were a child of a parent that did that.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, that's the biggest takeaway.

[A]

I think that's the biggest takeaway is being like, what would you say to a child who was a, who was a child of that.

[B]

Yeah, I would say you're watching, you're an adult now and you're, you have weird questions about your faith and you feel this weird childlike pressure to not investigate those things. You think that that's deconstructing? No, it's just that you weren't allowed to ask them earlier. I had a parent say to me yesterday, talking about an 11 year old. Like the 11 year old said to their parent, why would I believe in Jesus? What has he done for me? And this parent was saying, it hurts me that I'm hearing this question. And I was able to say, well, they were saying, well, when you were that age, you probably weren't asking that. And I was able to say to them and hopefully give them some relief and go, I was asking it, but I knew I wasn't allowed to ask you, so.

[A]

So having those wonderful to ask questions, it's wonderful. It's literally that one of the, one of the greatest things it says in the Bible is seek and you will find. Fine. But sometimes people are afraid to seek because they're like, well, I don't want to ask these questions because. Ask.

[B]

Yeah. I don't think God's afraid of it.

[A]

God's not afraid of questions. Yeah, he's much bigger than them. Also, my thing is just don't stop seeking.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Because sometimes people, if they're. Either they seek and then they get their feelings hurt and they go, okay, I've arrived at my belief.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then they, and then they stop seeking.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Or they're afraid to ask the question and they also stop seeking.

[B]

Right, right, right.

[A]

So keep seeking because you will find. And I have faith that it always ends and begins with Jesus. We love you guys. Thank you so much for listening and watching. We will see you next week. Yeah. Bye. Bye.

[B]

Man, we should have recorded. That was good.

[A]

Oh my.