← Voices of Search // A Search Engine Optimization (SEO) & Content Marketing Podcast
Voices of Search // A Search Engine Optimization (SEO) & Content Marketing Podcast
Brighton SEO Week With Louisa Frahm
00:28:20
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- [00:00]
Jordan Cooney
The Voices of Search Podcast is a proud member of the iHear Everything Podcast Network. Looking to launch or scale your podcast, iHear everything delivers podcast production, growth and monetization solutions that transform your words into profit. Ready to give your brand a voice? Then visit iheareverything.com welcome to the Voices of Search Podcast. A member of the iHear Everything Podcast Network, ready to expedite your company's organic growth efforts. Sit back, relax and get ready for your daily dose of search engine optimization wisdom. Here's today's host of the Voices of Search Podcast, Jordan Cooney hello SEOs and marketers.
- [00:45]
My name is Jordan Cooney from Free Visible. Joining me today is Louisa from SEO Director at espn, which is a leading sports entertainment brand covering television, sports, app direct to consumer streaming services and much more. Over the past 10 years, Luisa has been mastering the art of SEO both on the agency and in house side.
- [01:05]
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- [02:21]
AWT Today we're going to be discussing her Brightness SEO topic as well as the future of SEO and AI. Okay, here's my conversation with Louisa, SEO Director at espn. Luisa, welcome to the Voice of Search Podcast.
- [02:35]
Louisa
Thank you so much. I'm thrilled to be here.
- [02:38]
Jordan Cooney
I am thrilled because you're a San Diego native. We're in San Diego in your home city at an SEO Conference talking about something that you know super well. And so give a little background on yourself, what you're currently doing at ESPN and where we're at right now.
- [02:54]
Louisa
Yeah, so my SparkNotes version of that would be. I joined ESPN in August of 2022, so I've been there for a little over two years. I moved to Connecticut actually, where ESPN is headquartered. So California girl in Connecticut. It's been quite a change.
- [03:09]
Jordan Cooney
So the sun here is a warm welcome.
- [03:11]
Louisa
It's a warm welcome, especially this time of year. So that's wonderful. But yeah, my main objective of my ESPN in joining forces with that organization was to start the first full fledged in house SEO team. So very exciting initiative to kick off to be, you know, kind of put at the helm of. I have two analysts on my team. One of them is based out in Connecticut with me, I have another one in Los Angeles. We have a freelance writer which has been great to work with in terms of producing really search friendly utility content and boosting an explainer initiative. And then we also have a very talented product SEO manager that we work with. So we're a small but mighty team. But we handle, you know, all of the content that's being produced on the digital side across all of our sports section. So all of the different leagues that you love, anything that's being pumped out on the digital editorial side, my team is all about trying to make that content really sync with Google. And I guess we can say, right, in the age of AI, all of the latest, you know, Google things that are going on, we want to make sure that we're on top of it and targeting the right keywords so we can, you know, enhance our visibility to maximum extent.
- [04:20]
Jordan Cooney
Right. And so at ESPN you have this great luxury of having kind of an endless array of content. Right. And in the world where we're shifting towards AI as a core component of how we do our work, how we do SEO, how are you seeing AI influence the way your team is doing SEO, seeing how AI is influencing the various sources of content that ESPN has access to, how is that playing a role in an ecosystem in a media company as large as espn?
- [04:51]
Louisa
Yeah, so a few things immediately come to mind. Something that I'm going to cover in my talk at Brighton is AI overviews. It's unavoidable. It's a huge topic for all SEOs, but in particular for news SEO strategists, when we need as much visibility as possible in the SERPs and it's hyper, hyper competitive among publishers, AI overviews really do Present. I don't want to call it a threat because that makes it seem like you can't possibly work with it. But it is anxiety inducing to have this big thing blocking that visibility that you're accustomed to with the top stories carousel and with more traditional search results pages. So that's something that's very top of mind for us in news SEO. It's a multipronged kind of approach to it though you don't want to completely dismiss it. So I'm actually going to cover that in my talk of like, what are the techniques that we're using right now that can best pair with AI overviews? Like what does it like that we're already doing that we can do even more of so that we can hopefully improve our odds of appearing in the carousel that AI overviews has.
- [05:56]
Jordan Cooney
Right.
- [05:57]
Louisa
But also also just in general, how can we find other ways to boost our visibility? A big belief that I have of the future of search and where it's going is because of AI overviews because we can't really rely on the first page of Google the way that we used to where it's like that is the end goal. You get on the first page, you did well, check the box. We're not living that anymore. And I think what AI really does present when it comes to Google search results is yes, that is still a goal. It's not the only goal. So I think of search search now and I've encouraged my team to look at it the same way as a trigger of sorts. Right. So you see that something is trending, you see that there's this breakout topic of interest searches the trigger. So you know that there's an audience. But it doesn't mean that that is the only pathway, the only platform that you can target with that search friendly content. So the way that I look at it is yes, we still want to maximize our odds of appearing on Google syncing with AI overviews, but how else can we increase eyeballs on this content? Like is it whether it's through an or a newsletter or social media? I mean obviously there's so many other channels, but that's where I think, you know, SEO strategists, I mean we've always had to do that. That's always been of course, yeah. But I think it's more important than ever to expand your horizons a bit of like it isn't just about landing on the first page of Google because that's very unpredictable now. It is what AI overviews is and obviously, and again I'm going to talk about a lot of this in my talk. But you know, we don't necessarily have a way to predict what a search result is going to be now. So we can't rely on that. We don't know when it's going to get triggered or how it's going to appear. So we just have to try to maximize our visibility in as many channels as possible.
- [07:41]
Jordan Cooney
So one of the interesting opportunities that you have with a brand like ESPN is you have these different channels of content. You have these different ways to connect with users and audiences that are trying to consume this content. One of the components in this shift that we're seeing in search, whether it be with AI overviews, different carousels, whether they be for media or other types of channels. Also we see more and more video assets showing up in carousels images. So big, big changes. Right. How do you envision the message of branding and how your brand is perceived in SEO? Is brand SEO now more important because of these changes to the serp? Is that now a concept that we should be thinking about as SEOs in a different way than just trying to rank in position? One is it may be more important to be like brand present for things that are important to your company.
- [08:43]
Louisa
I love this question because I strongly agree with that. I think we are in this age and kind of going with my other point about we need to maximize every possible platform. I think brand recognition and trust is a platform in and of itself. I'm a big believer in Google Eeat and that is huge for a publisher like us. And especially being the institution that we are, that has built up the sort of trust that we have with our fans over decades. That's something I think about in our work every single day is that's a privilege, but it's also a responsibility to produce the best content possible. That's why I'm a big believer in utility content service journalism, giving the fans exactly what they want. Because I think that helps you in navigating this AI overview arrow that we're in. Because, you know, admittedly, right, AI overviews are not always correct. That has been widely pointed out in the press. There are inaccuracies, things will be outdated and it's like because of that and obviously we don't know where it's going to go in the future, but where it is right now as it stands. That's why publishing. But really I think any brand should be thinking of, okay, well if that's going to be kind of wild and out the way that it is, what can we do to be as stable and secure and reliable for whoever our target audience is? So for us, that means giving the fans exactly what they want. I mean, I think about this all the time. I mean, stats are really big with sports bands. So where I work, little inaccuracies make a big difference. So what we want to do consistently as a brand like ESPN is show. Okay. If AI overview is a little bit off, you can come directly to us. So it's a different sort of search. I would say it's like it's going beyond, like just again, the first page of Google and really keeping up that eat, it's more important than ever. So then you can kind of, you know, like, work your way around that obstacle.
- [10:35]
Jordan Cooney
There's so many things changing in the news space, whether it be sports or more conventional news. And one of the trends I think we're seeing is that, you know, consumers of news, you know, readers and audiences that are utilizing news content are becoming far more fervent about specific topics or niche areas that are of great interest to them. Yeah, right. They're, they're less maybe interested in the broad news of sports, and they're much, much more interested in knowing just what happened in this one game or just what's happening with this one player, whether it be from, you know, the fantasy perspective, because now there's a whole craze behind that or just general friends, like.
- [11:22]
Louisa
Fan base, as ever, is in fantasy.
- [11:23]
Jordan Cooney
Is in fantasy. Right. But what it's done is it's created this, like, myopic view. I'm only interested in this one little thing instead of like the whole, I'm not interested in all sports, I'm not interested in all baseball. I'm just interested in this one player and what they did in a given game.
- [11:36]
Louisa
Yeah.
- [11:37]
Jordan Cooney
So how do you think about that challenge? This trend, this shift? This isn't just happening in sports news. This is happening in all. Yeah, no. And how do you think about that from the SEO lens? How do you ensure that you can go as granular as a single play in a game all the way to what's happening in an entire league or in all of new sports as a whole?
- [11:59]
Louisa
So the way that I look at that and what immediately comes to mind, and it's a huge, huge part of my methodology in search, is I think of the power of questions. And that's something that I know I've mentioned utility content a lot. It's a huge passion of mine, but I think that's how you meet that need because people get very granular with questions. And something that I'm always pushing to my team, but also to the editors and the writers in the newsroom at large that we work with is simple is not stupid. So whatever your questions are that you're seeing, whether it's via Google Trends or it's People Also Ask or these other portals where you can get content inspiration, you need to listen. So that's, that's what I would say to that is just, you know, and don't be afraid. You can do these bigger, more broad pieces, but you can also do these granular, you know, like more specific pieces. Like, I'm all in favor of content in all ways, always. Like, I think you need to broaden your horizons a little bit. And that's something that I'm always encouraging our newsroom to do is don't dismiss something because whatever that might seem like, well, I'm not interested in that or that's to, you know, insert adjective here. Because you need to listen to your fan base first and foremost. And if the search interest is there, that is why I love a tool like Google Trends and we use it so closely. You need to listen to that, you know, and I think it's really important as much as possible to kind of take like personal opinion out of that and listen to the data and if it's consistently showing, yes, there is that interest there. And in particular in the world that we work in, if there's seasonality, if this is something that people are gonna search for every single year at this time during a specific season, you can drive long term search traffic with that when you write a corresponding piece of content. So those are the types of things that I'm always thinking about. And I really think questions are the answer to what you just proposed and always trying to get in the mind of the fan or your target audience.
- [13:58]
Jordan Cooney
I mean, I love what you just said there. I think simple is not stupid is a great quote, it's a great pro.
- [14:05]
Louisa
It really is.
- [14:06]
Jordan Cooney
I hope you got it from your mom. We'll talk about that later. Talk about mom later. But on a segue here, because simple is not stupid. And there's so much that we're learning in the SEO world right now. We're in a transitional moment in the SEO community. We're moving from not only a change landscape in terms of what the SERP is doing, which we've dealt with before, whether it be with answer boxes or Knowledge graph, we're changing the SERP in the landscape, or Google's changing the SERP in the landscape. But we're also seeing just a whole new force, a whole new nature of ways in which we do work with AI, as well as utilizing AI to help consumers find what they need. And so with all this change happening, I think knowledge is the key power to growing and developing our SEO skills. We're right now here at the Brighton SEO Conference in San Diego. From this lens of being at a conference, how do you see that adding value to individual SEOs, content marketers in their growth journey in SEO?
- [15:08]
Louisa
Oh, I think it's huge, you know, like working in house. I think it's, you know, it's so easy to kind of get caught up. But no matter what the brand is in, what your day to day is, whatever your specific like targets are on a regular basis, I think it's absolutely essential to reconnect with the bigger industry. When you work in SEO, even if you are an in house, you know, SEO strategist, we're like, you know, because the agency is a little bit different, you have more of that mix going on and I think that discussion can take place more frequently. I think it's critical for people to come to these conferences and understand the bigger kind of things that are going on with the mothership and more importantly, to have that discussion time. Even last night it was technically before the conference kicked off because we're in day one, but it was the kickoff event and some of the discussions that I had with other SEOs, just on the fly about whether it was AI or if it was algorithm shifts, whatever it might be. You don't get that on a day to day basis being in your own vacuum. So I find that that kind of time invaluable so you can get different perspectives that might open your eyes a little bit. So that's why, I mean, in addition to conferences, I regularly read like our industry blogs, like Search engine journals, Search Engine Land, utilize different resources and I mean even just through like social media and keeping up with some of my favorite folks in the industry that way. One of my favorite things about SEO, and I've loved it from the very beginning, is that we don't have gatekeepers here. And that's how I've always felt about it and really love that about it, that there aren't people, you know, kind of holding something like, no, this is mine, I want to share it. It's like I want to get out and I want to talk about this and inspire other people and get their thoughts because those could very well enhance my thoughts and my perspective on whatever this is. And I think that's a really healthy sort of dynamic for an industry. And I've, I've, I've loved that from the very beginning with that. So, so can't speak more highly of like these types of opportunities. And in an industry like ours that is constantly shifting, it's really critical to have your finger on the pulse of the epicenter and what's going on outside of your own bubble.
- [17:20]
Jordan Cooney
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- [18:48]
No question. And I mean, I think there's a, there's a lens to this which is not only are events critical, but it's what you take back to the organization that becomes super important, right? Because there's a lot of learning, there's a lot of education that you can, you can foster in an environment like this one. There's also great tools and outlets, whether it be, you know, industry news, other other local events and community. I really think that what you take back is the most important piece to evolving our roles. And so question for you is, as you're at Brighton this week and we're exploring new tactics, new ways of doing work, how do you intend on bringing this knowledge back? How do you intend on integrating what you may learn here back into the ESPN organization?
- [19:34]
Louisa
Yeah, it's a great question. So something that we kickstarted in the last year on my team and I thought that the timing of it was optimal because we had built up enough of a base with our newsroom that they were familiar with SEO is we started recurring SEO Team newsletter and I love it. We recently shifted it to every other month putting it out. But it is one of the ways that I try to communicate with our bigger newsroom and our editorial stakeholders about industry updates and really encourage that educational element. And we'll feature different things that are going on in the industry. It could be, you know, like the og, you know, title tag shifting. It could be a, you know, a full on algorithm shift that could have affected us. It could be a wide variety of things. So I think that's going to be a natural place to do a recap of this. That's why, you know, I've been taking notes so far in the sessions that I've been in. I'll continue to do that over the two days to provide that kind of direct information to people who could really be positively impacted by it. So definitely the knowledge sharing is really big in that way, having a dedicated session with my team to discuss it because we are the ones that are in the weeds every single day. So I think it's important to, in addition to that kind of like bigger email, making sure that we have that one on one time to see, hey, if they get informed about this, do they have any other ideas, have they been seeing similar things and you know, kind of advancing the conversation in that way. So I would say that. And then, I mean, I don't yet know what I'm going to learn but conferences are exciting. But based off of what I, what I see, if there are those sparks of inspiration, I am obsessed with training. I just, I believe that training isn't one and done. I think it's an ongoing process. I think there are opportunities for training always. You know, so if I see something at this conference and it's, hey, I think we could do a dedicated session on that, I think we could loop in members of the newsroom. You know, we, and on our team at ESPN we've done, you know, basic SEO best practices, but we've also done Google Trends trainings with our editorial folks. So if something else pops up where it's a clear pathway in that direction, I would love to do that too. And I think that takes it to the next level of you know, beyond even like an email. Let's have them workshop something. Let's have them, you know, kind of get in the weeds with it as well. So.
- [21:50]
Jordan Cooney
No doubt.
- [21:50]
Louisa
Yeah. The possibilities are really endless depending on, you know, what those takeaways plays are.
- [21:54]
Jordan Cooney
Absolutely. Now, I promised you, you know, what's coming next. I promised you in the wrap up of our questions that I would ask about Mom. I have to ask about Mom. There's a lot of reasons why, but one of the things that I find really inspiring about your journey and as I've, you know, you know, we've talked before, I've, you know, read up on your LinkedIn profile and understood, you know, your, your past work, you've been on the agency side, you've been on the in house side, you've seen a lot of change in the SEO world. You've managed people, you've been an individual contributor.
- [22:27]
Louisa
Yeah.
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Jordan Cooney
You've been in roles that were good and roles that were maybe not so good. And so mom has been there for all these changes. And one of the really special things you shared with me was, you know, a few moments where you just didn't get the role you wanted or you didn't, the door that you wanted to have open, didn't open. And mom was there to kind of help see through the clouds and understand where you're going, where your direction is in your SEO career.
- [22:53]
Louisa
Yeah, yeah.
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Jordan Cooney
And so I'd like for you to share with our listeners a little bit about that journey, about some of those moments where, hey, that role didn't happen or that opportunity closed and you went into something else and how your mom was there to support you in that. And then secondly, I want you to talk about how we're at a really pivotal point right now in the SEO world where so many new roles are opening up, so many new functions are opening up, but even more importantly, the skills and the capabilities that we need to do SEO well are changing.
- [23:22]
Louisa
Absolutely.
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Jordan Cooney
How's mom going to be there when all these stages come about?
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Louisa
I love it, Chris. Mom's going to have her involvement whether we like it or not. Be involved always. No. So, yeah, to answer the first part of that, you know, not my mom, actually. So for a brief segue, another close friend that I have who is a mentor as well to me. So similar sort of figure woman, just someone I really look up to. She gave me guidance at one point that I have held onto so dearly. And I think it really connects to this of there's that classic phrase that gets thrown around of everything happens for a reason.
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Jordan Cooney
Sure.
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Louisa
And she came and she spoke with, you know, kind of this female empowerment group that I have at work. And when she was wrapping it up and kind of saying what her mantra was, she flipped that on its head and said, I want to revamp that into everything happens for a purpose. And I have thought of that so much over the last, like, I mean, year and change since she came and she spoke with us because, I mean, everything happens for a reason can feel very passive. Right, Right.
- [24:25]
Jordan Cooney
Because that's all out of your control.
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Louisa
Yeah.
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Jordan Cooney
If you have any way of changing, I mean, that.
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Louisa
That's often what people will say to you when it is something sad. So to go back to your question, it's like, oh, something sad happened. Well, everything happens for a reason, and then you'll just feel sad about it. But I really liked about it's my friend June who said that is purpose is an activator. So the way that you can look at it. And to go back to your question, like on now, when I reflect back on those opportunities that I didn't get or someone didn't work out or the door closed, it was an activator to something else. Because when I look at my full career now, I have no regrets about it. Every single, like, move, every single pivot has had value. And that includes the opportunities where it's like, hey, I really felt like that was a sure thing. It didn't work out, and I was forced to pivot. All of that has contributed immense value. So I had to shout out June 1, just in saying that, you know, everything happens for a purpose that is by June Lopez. And I stand by that so firmly because I think it really helps in those scenarios. But to pivot back to Chris from that's what the question was about. My mom was that person, you know, like, when I. I mean, my first real, you know, thing where I absolutely felt like I had the job was 22, and I was like, yes. And it actually was at my agency that I worked at, who I Debbie promote very much credit them with the foundation for my career. Fantastic. But when I first applied there, it was for an account manager role. It wasn't for an SEO role. And I really thought that, like, I nailed the interview process. I was like, yes. And at the time, I was very anxious to get into, you know, a new position. And then I didn't get it. And I remember my mom, you know, again, like, it was kind of a bummer. I found out, like, on a Saturday night that I Didn't get it. And my mom, you know my point too, and she just told me, and I think this is really, really good advice for anybody. It's like, number one, you never know. Like, I would say the vast majority of the time, you don't really know why you didn't get something. You just kind of find out, like, hey. And so she brought up to me, it's like, you know, it could have been that they hired someone internally. You know, you never know who the other person might have been. You never know. The job also could have just gone off the market. Like, you don't know. So the one thing you are in charge of is, did I give my best? And if you gave your best, there's nothing to get hung up on. And that was what she told me. Like, do you think that you gave your all to that interview process? And I said, yes. And she was like, then you have nothing. You have nothing to feel bad about, because you can't. You can't change what the result was. So I would say that just in terms of, like, not throwing it back on yourself is really important because there oftentimes are just so many mechanisms that are working, you know, in the. In the other area that, like, you have no control over. So really using your mind in an effective way, in that way, but also, you know, just in general. The other thing she said was, don't count this company out. You don't know. There could be another opening. Because I think it can be really easy in the moment to just be like, oh, my God. Well, they don't love exactly, like, to make yourself feel better. It's like, okay, well, if they don't want me, they don't deserve, like, whatever. And I think it's very easy to feel that way. But my mom was adamant. She was like, you don't know. This one didn't work out. Why don't you keep your eye on it? And, you know, if you love this company, and I did, I really felt connected to the company. There could be another opening. And in less than two months, there was. And it was an SEO role. So I always marvel at that, because if I had been an account manager there, my entire career may not have happened.
- [27:51]
Jordan Cooney
Different direction.
- [27:52]
Louisa
Yeah. And, you know, instead, that role did open up. It was, you know, as an SEO specialist. And my boss there really took a chance. I was green as heck, Andrew McClellan. And I still credit him so much because he saw something in me, and that's where my whole world opened up. So I think it's really important that struck from Chris Fromm, like, you know, to obviously not burn bridges. And just keep in mind, even if one opportunity doesn't work out, that doesn't mean that there couldn't be another avenue and to really stay resilient in those types of periods. And honestly, we all just want to have those connections and, you know, see which road actually does make the most sense. So you might be surprised sometimes which one that is.
- [28:31]
Jordan Cooney
No doubt.
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Louisa
So that start from Chris prom. And it was really good advice. It was really good advice.
- [28:36]
Jordan Cooney
You are so fortunate to have Chris in your life, obviously. And it's so nice of you to share that story because I think it's so important to share stories of individuals in our lives who are illuminators, people who bring out the best in any situation, regardless of what the current outcome or scenario is. And that's why I really appreciate that story. I think it's so valuable to our listeners and the SEOs that are out there looking for new jobs or new roles. Right. Because not everyone is going to work out perfectly.
- [29:04]
Louisa
Yeah. And I really can't stress enough because it's so easy to beat up on yourself when you're going through, like, the process. And, you know, I get nice, like, comments from different people, but I always remind folks, like, I didn't land my dream job right out of school, like, not even close. And you know, everybody has those moments. And I think it's so crucial for your own life, like self preservation to not like, lump all of that back on yourself. Like, if you're giving your all. Because I do know that the job market is really hard right now. And it's like if you're giving your all to the interview process, like, that's all you can do and I'm rooting for you and your resilience is everything. And yeah, I think we can absorb so much of it as humans because it's just kind of like human nature. But yeah, I mean, that would be my one thing. And she's my mom has always really encouraged me with that. You have to just keep forging that path, path forward, you know.
- [29:50]
Jordan Cooney
Awesome. And that wraps up this episode of the Voice of Search podcast. A huge thank you to Louisa for her stories and her great inspiration. What an illuminator in the SEO community. If you'd like to learn more about Luisa, you can find a link to her LinkedIn profile in our show notes or visit our company website, espn.com okay.
- [30:08]
Thanks to Jordan Cooney, the founder of Previsible. If you'd like to get in touch with Jordan. You can find a link to his LinkedIn profile in our show notes. You can contact him on Twitter. His handle is JT Couney. That's JT K O E N. Or you can visit his company's website, which is Previsible IO that's P R E V I S I B L E I O and a special thanks to Ahrefs for sponsoring this podcast. Monitoring your website used to require multiple expensive tools, but that's not the case anymore, thanks to Ahrefs because they just launched their Ahrefs Webmaster Tools product, which monitors your SEO health, helps you keep track of your backlinks, and gives you the insight into what keywords are performing for free. So check out Ahrefs webmaster tools@ahrefs.comAWT that's Ahrefs a h r e f s.comAWT just one more link in our show Notes I'd like to tell you about. If you didn't have a chance to take notes while you were listening to this podcast, head over to voicesofsearch.com where we have summaries of all of our episodes and contact information for our guests. You can also subscribe to our weekly newsletter, and you can even send us your topic suggestions or your marketing questions, which we'll answer live on our show. Of course, you can always reach out on social media. Our handle is Voices of search on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, or you can contact me directly. My handle is Benj Shab B E N J S H A P and if you haven't subscribed yet and you want a daily stream of SEO and content marketing insights in your podcast feed, we're going to publish an episode every day during the work week, so hit that subscribe button in your podcast app and we'll be back in your feed tomorrow morning. All right, that's it for today, but until next time, remember the answers are always in the data.