Does retrieval-based search make traditional keyword research obsolete?

Summary

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Episode Overview

Title: Does retrieval-based search make traditional keyword research obsolete?
Podcast: Voices of Search
Host: Tyson Stockton
Guest: Duane Forrester, Unbound Answers
Date: September 9, 2025

In this episode, Tyson Stockton and guest Duane Forrester tackle the question of whether the rise of retrieval-based search signals the end of traditional keyword research practices. The conversation moves through practical strategies, the evolving nature of SEO research, and how marketers should adapt their methods in a rapidly changing landscape shaped by new search technologies.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Core Question: Is Traditional Keyword Research Obsolete?

• [01:00] Tyson poses the central query: Are you buying or selling that retrieval based search makes traditional keyword research obsolete?
• Duane's Stance: He "sells" the notion that keyword research is now useless, explaining:
  • Traditional keyword research isn't obsolete, but its function is changing.
  • There's a shift from focusing solely on keywords to embracing wider topic research and understanding the relationships between different queries.

Expanding Beyond Keywords: The "Query Fan Out"

• [01:11–02:28] Duane introduces the concept of "query fan out":
  • Starting research from one keyword, then branching into all related topics a user might care about.
  • Example: If you're talking about "sleeping bags," you should also consider tents, pillows, and ground sheets—the entire universe of related camping equipment.
  • He advisors his team: “I am not telling them, go do traditional keyword research, go look up a word, and so on. I am telling them, go do topic research. Start with these keywords, go broader.” (Duane, [01:20])
• Duane clarifies: “I am selling this idea that it needs to expand. There we go.” (Duane, [02:14])
• Both agree that clinging to strict keyword lists is limiting, especially for inexperienced SEOs, as modern search involves more nuanced queries.

The Real-World Analogy: Conversations vs. Keywords

• [03:07] Duane offers an exercise:
  • Try observing real conversations at a party—are they strictly "keyword" exchanges, or do topics naturally branch out?
  • “As much as they want to start with a keyword, it's going to evolve like instantly… If we start talking about Star Trek, it's inevitable. We start talking about Star Wars. Yeah, inevitable. Like you get there, I mean it just happens.” (Duane, [03:22])

The Pace of Change in SEO & Search Behavior

• [04:12] Duane remarks:
  • Adoption of advanced query-based research (“query fan out”) will happen extremely quickly, overtaking traditional methods.
  • Predicts that in just a year, even the terminology will shift: people will talk in terms of "fan out" rather than "keyword research," as this perspective becomes a new norm.

“The evolution of where we started to where we now think the new normal is, is going to happen extremely fast because it's kind of being dragged along by the pace of everything else… when we start talking about keyword research a year from now, people will either understand it's fan out inclusive or will start using fan out as a replacement for keyword research.” (Duane, [04:15])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On shifting away from rigid keyword focus

  “I am not telling them, go do traditional keyword research, go look up a word, and so on. I am telling them, go do topic research. Start with these keywords, go broader.”
  — Duane Forrester, [01:20]

• On the conversational nature of search

  "Try… make note of how many conversations they have that are keyword based versus how many of them look more like people also asked. I guarantee you it's an eye opening exercise…"
  — Duane Forrester, [03:07]

• On the rapid pace of SEO evolution

  “That evolution… is going to happen extremely fast… when we start talking about keyword research a year from now, people will either understand it's fan out inclusive or will start using fan out as a replacement for keyword research…”
  — Duane Forrester, [04:15]

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Important Segment Timestamps

• [01:00] — Core question on the future of keyword research
• [01:11–02:28] — Duane’s perspective: Topic research and query fan out
• [03:07] — Analogy to real conversation patterns
• [04:12] — Discussion on how rapidly SEO practices are evolving

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Summary

Bottom Line:
Traditional keyword research is not obsolete, but its role is quickly changing as search engines become more sophisticated and user queries more varied. Effective SEO now requires a focus on broader topic coverage—embracing the "query fan out"—as opposed to just compiling static keyword lists. This holistic approach will soon become the standard as technology and search behaviors evolve rapidly.

Takeaway for SEO Professionals:
Don't just chase keywords—map the entire landscape of related user interests and be prepared to adapt as the pace of change increases.

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Transcript

[A]

The Voices of Search Podcast is a proud member of the I Hear Everything Podcast Network. Looking to launch or scale your podcast, I Hear Everything delivers podcast production, growth and monetization solutions that transform your words into profit. Ready to give your brand a voice then visit iheareverything.com welcome to the Voices of Search Podcast. A member of the I Hear Everything Podcast network, ready to expedite your company's organic growth efforts. Sit back, relax, and get ready for your daily dose of search engine optimization wisdom. Here's today's host of the Voices of Search podcast, Tyson Stockton.

[B]

I do want to hit on some kind of more like lightning round type questions. Not, not to keep you too long.

[C]

Here, go for it.

[B]

But I'm going to throw a kind of series of more shorter form questions at you. They'll have a theme to them and then we can kind of riff off kind of each of those.

[C]

Cool.

[B]

The first question here is going to be around buying or selling. Are you buying or selling that retrieval based search makes traditional keyword research obsolete.

[C]

I would sell on that and here's why. And that assumes I know how I'm applying my words here. Okay. I don't believe traditional keyword research is obsolete. I believe it's changing its function. Keywords are great and obviously still utilized for traditional search. Okay, but the concept of query, fan out. So the larger like if you want to talk to me about camping equipment and you want to talk about a sleeping bag, you're probably going to want to talk about a pillow, you're probably going to want to talk about a tent, you're probably going to want to talk about a ground sheet, all these other ancillary things that are related to it. So if it's me investing my team's time, I am not telling them, go do traditional keyword research, go look up a word, and so on. I am telling them, go do topic research. Start with these keywords, go broader. That right there. That is where I'm saying. So I don't know if that's a buy or a sell. Am I buying that?

[B]

I think you're selling in that case where it's like it is a gray area.

[C]

Okay, then I'm selling. I'm selling this idea. I'm selling this idea that it needs to expand. There we go.

[B]

It's like at least maybe I do.

[C]

Not buy the idea that traditional keyword research is all you need.

[B]

Well, and it's, it's, I think, really good advice because the risk I see with traditional research is it leads especially like younger SEOs into thinking more close minded and very like surface level rather than like you said, the query fan out. How does like what's the collection of topics? Because especially getting into more LLM search based, it's like you are not going to be able to predict all the different nuances of how someone's going to input one prompt versus another. It's like there's too many combinations in that sense. So it's like identify those topics.

[C]

So here's a fun exercise. If somebody wants to argue that traditional keyword research is all you need, ask them to go to a party with their friends on Friday night and make note of how many conversations they have that are keyword based versus how many of them look more like people also asked. I guarantee you it's an eye opening exercise because as much as they want to start with a keyword, it's going to evolve like instantly. It's going to evolve much broader than that. It's the nature of it. If we start talking about Star Trek, it's inevitable. We start talking about Star Wars. Yeah, inevitable. Like you get there, I mean it's, it just happens. And I realize you're going to get a lot of hate on this one because of that statement, but I don't.

[B]

I don't think so. I mean I actually think that it's something that a lot of us at some level have hopefully already accepted. You know, it's like I think it's going to be one of those things that fast forward a couple years, it's not even going to be a question.

[C]

No. But you know, so. Okay, here's what's fascinating about that. Right. As we stretch out the lightning round. What's really fascinating about that, Tyson, is the fact that that evolution of where we started to where we now think the new normal is is going to happen extremely fast because it's kind of being dragged along by the pace of everything else. So the idea that you went from traditional keyword research to query Thanos style keyword research, that's going to be so quickly adopted that I think, you know, when we start talking about keyword research a year from now, people will either understand it's fan out inclusive or will start using fan out as a replacement for keyword research because people will understand the connotation. I think it is moving that fast. I think that we will get there that quickly. I do also believe that this is going to happen. A lot of topics in the world of search.

[B]

Yeah, 100%. So that's going to wrap up this episode of the Voice of Search podcast. Thanks again to Duane Forrester from Unbound Answers for joining us. If you'd like to get in contact with Duane, you can find a link to his LinkedIn profile in the Show Notes, or you can get more information about unbound answers@unbound answers.com also be sure to check out his substack, which will be in the Show Notes, for some of these articles that have been referenced. And if you haven't subscribed yet and would like a daily stream of SEO content marketing knowledge in your podcast feed, hit the subscribe button on your podcast app or on YouTube and we'll be back in your feed soon with that. That's all for today. Thanks for stopping by and we'll see you in the next episode. Sam.